Discussion:
Gender-neutral word for 'brotherhood'?
(too old to reply)
j***@gmail.com
2016-08-28 12:21:18 UTC
Permalink
I am looking of a word, in any language other than English, which means
the same as 'brotherhood' or 'fraternity', but which is gender neutral.
I am a composer, and I am writing a piece of music which sets the text
of Article 1 of the Universal Declararion of Human Rights;
'All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are
endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in
a spirit of brotherhood.'
<http://www.unhchr.ch/udhr>
I am concerned that 'brotherhood' is not a gender neutral term, and I
want to replace it with a word from another language which has the same
sense but no gender bias.
The UNHCR site referenced above has translations of the UDHR in many
languages. In some languages the word used is similar to 'fraternity',
which is also not gender neutral.
The only concrete suggestion I have so far is the Irish Gaelic word
'comhaltas', but the official tranlsation of the UDHR, to which I wish
to adhere if possible, gives 'bhrthreachais', 'of brotherhood' (also
apparently misspelled; should be 'bhraithreachais').
Finnish was suggested as a language with some gender neutral features,
but the word used in this case is not.
I would welcome any suggestions; perhaps email responses would be best,
although I will monitor this group for a while.
Thanks in advance,
--
J. Simon van der Walt
Composer
My home page <http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~waltp>
invention
<http://www.strath.ac.uk/Other/invention-ensemble>
Why not try going back to the Greek and creating a word. I think the phonetic spelling in Greek for brotherhood is adelphotes. Not sure if that has a gender connotation though. But in Greek there are many words for love but philia is the world for "brotherly love". re: Philadelphia, city of brotherly love. Often Fraternity is subsituted for brotherhood (Liberte, fraternite, equalite) but fraternity is also not gender neutral as it derives from frater (father) and brother as in males. So...maybe philia, a newish word? Even though now philia has taken on more negative connotations in words such as pedophilia..which is a shame...it never had that original intent. In Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics, philia is usually translated as "friendship" or affection.
Yusuf B Gursey
2016-08-28 15:22:25 UTC
Permalink
I am looking of a word, in any language other than English, which means
the same as 'brotherhood' or 'fraternity', but which is gender neutral.er
Turkish kardeşlik kardeş is sibling regardless of gender.

probably from karın-daş "sharing a belly" ş = sh

There are also words for elder brother, elder sister, younger brother (rare)
and younger sister.
I am a composer, and I am writing a piece of music which sets the text
of Article 1 of the Universal Declararion of Human Rights;
'All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are
endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in
a spirit of brotherhood.'
<http://www.unhchr.ch/udhr>
I am concerned that 'brotherhood' is not a gender neutral term, and I
want to replace it with a word from another language which has the same
sense but no gender bias.
The UNHCR site referenced above has translations of the UDHR in many
languages. In some languages the word used is similar to 'fraternity',
which is also not gender neutral.
The only concrete suggestion I have so far is the Irish Gaelic word
'comhaltas', but the official tranlsation of the UDHR, to which I wish
to adhere if possible, gives 'bhrthreachais', 'of brotherhood' (also
apparently misspelled; should be 'bhraithreachais').
Finnish was suggested as a language with some gender neutral features,
but the word used in this case is not.
I would welcome any suggestions; perhaps email responses would be best,
although I will monitor this group for a while.
Thanks in advance,
--
J. Simon van der Walt
Composer
My home page <http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~waltp>
invention ensemble
<http://www.strath.ac.uk/Other/invention-ensemble>
Mike Duffy
2016-08-29 00:27:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@gmail.com
Why not try going back to the Greek and creating a word.
Since the original poster liked both "brotherhood" and "sisterhood", but
wanted a gender-neutral term, I was going to suggest "siblinghood". I
know, it looks awkward, but at least the meaning should be apparent.

I tried to respond to the original post, but ES could not locate it. I
dug a bit further and noticed that you ( jdhilton2 ) had responded to a
17 year old post. (28 Oct 1999).

I'm not chiding you for not noticing. It probably showed up on your
server ( Google groups) but us 'purists' who use real NNTP servers would
not see it.

What I'm wondering about is why this sort of thing seems to happen quite
often these past few months on several different groups. Usually Google
Groups seems to be complicit.
Peter T. Daniels
2016-08-29 03:14:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Duffy
Post by j***@gmail.com
Why not try going back to the Greek and creating a word.
Since the original poster liked both "brotherhood" and "sisterhood", but
wanted a gender-neutral term, I was going to suggest "siblinghood". I
know, it looks awkward, but at least the meaning should be apparent.
I tried to respond to the original post, but ES could not locate it. I
dug a bit further and noticed that you ( jdhilton2 ) had responded to a
17 year old post. (28 Oct 1999).
I'm not chiding you for not noticing. It probably showed up on your
server ( Google groups) but us 'purists' who use real NNTP servers would
not see it.
What I'm wondering about is why this sort of thing seems to happen quite
often these past few months on several different groups. Usually Google
Groups seems to be complicit.
It would not show up in GG unless you scrolled near to the bottom of the 100,000
threads.

The culprit is, and always has been, gmail.
Yusuf B Gursey
2016-08-29 04:28:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Mike Duffy
Post by j***@gmail.com
Why not try going back to the Greek and creating a word.
Since the original poster liked both "brotherhood" and "sisterhood", but
wanted a gender-neutral term, I was going to suggest "siblinghood". I
know, it looks awkward, but at least the meaning should be apparent.
I tried to respond to the original post, but ES could not locate it. I
dug a bit further and noticed that you ( jdhilton2 ) had responded to a
17 year old post. (28 Oct 1999).
I'm not chiding you for not noticing. It probably showed up on your
server ( Google groups) but us 'purists' who use real NNTP servers would
not see it.
What I'm wondering about is why this sort of thing seems to happen quite
often these past few months on several different groups. Usually Google
Groups seems to be complicit.
It would not show up in GG unless you scrolled near to the bottom of the 100,000
threads.
The culprit is, and always has been, gmail.
gmail is an email interface, not a newsgroups one (unless
you are set to receive news)
Peter T. Daniels
2016-08-29 11:25:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Mike Duffy
Post by j***@gmail.com
Why not try going back to the Greek and creating a word.
Since the original poster liked both "brotherhood" and "sisterhood", but
wanted a gender-neutral term, I was going to suggest "siblinghood". I
know, it looks awkward, but at least the meaning should be apparent.
I tried to respond to the original post, but ES could not locate it. I
dug a bit further and noticed that you ( jdhilton2 ) had responded to a
17 year old post. (28 Oct 1999).
I'm not chiding you for not noticing. It probably showed up on your
server ( Google groups) but us 'purists' who use real NNTP servers would
not see it.
What I'm wondering about is why this sort of thing seems to happen quite
often these past few months on several different groups. Usually Google
Groups seems to be complicit.
It would not show up in GG unless you scrolled near to the bottom of the 100,000
threads.
The culprit is, and always has been, gmail.
gmail is an email interface, not a newsgroups one (unless
you are set to receive news)
The g in "gmail" means Google. Gmail users are somehow enabled to see ancient
newsgroup-starters, with no hint of their date or that that is what they are.
Mike Duffy
2016-08-29 15:14:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The g in "gmail" means Google. Gmail users are somehow enabled to see ancient
newsgroup-starters, with no hint of their date or that that is what they are.
Thanks. This explains a lot. It's probably a setting in the profile
somewhere.

I suspect that perhaps Google is retro-actively adding old NNTP messages
to Google groups to enable them to show up in searches. Certain users
see these as new messages.
DKleinecke
2016-08-29 16:09:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Duffy
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The g in "gmail" means Google. Gmail users are somehow enabled to see ancient
newsgroup-starters, with no hint of their date or that that is what they are.
Thanks. This explains a lot. It's probably a setting in the profile
somewhere.
I suspect that perhaps Google is retro-actively adding old NNTP messages
to Google groups to enable them to show up in searches. Certain users
see these as new messages.
I agree. I think the culprit is Google search. It often finds
what they consider Google groups entries (Which includes all
the usenet archives). The searcher does not recognize what they
have found but they do see a "reply" button, clicking on that
they reply. Google uses gmail to communicate with usenet but I
think the fact that these searchers all seem to have gmail
addresses is a red herring and simply the a result of the fact
that almost all newbies use gmail.
Dingbat
2016-08-31 20:53:57 UTC
Permalink
I am looking of a word, in any language other than English, which means
the same as 'brotherhood' or 'fraternity', but which is gender neutral.
Comradeship, in English; try translating it to other languages. It doesn't mean the same as a brotherhood in the sense of the Clancy Brothers who had the same parents but that might not be the meaning you're looking for.
I am a composer, and I am writing a piece of music which sets the text
of Article 1 of the Universal Declararion of Human Rights;
'All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are
endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in
a spirit of brotherhood.'
<http://www.unhchr.ch/udhr>
I am concerned that 'brotherhood' is not a gender neutral term, and I
want to replace it with a word from another language which has the same
sense but no gender bias.
The UNHCR site referenced above has translations of the UDHR in many
languages. In some languages the word used is similar to 'fraternity',
which is also not gender neutral.
The only concrete suggestion I have so far is the Irish Gaelic word
'comhaltas', but the official tranlsation of the UDHR, to which I wish
to adhere if possible, gives 'bhrthreachais', 'of brotherhood' (also
apparently misspelled; should be 'bhraithreachais').
Finnish was suggested as a language with some gender neutral features,
but the word used in this case is not.
I would welcome any suggestions; perhaps email responses would be best,
although I will monitor this group for a while.
Thanks in advance,
--
J. Simon van der Walt
Composer
My home page <http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~waltp>
invention ensemble
<http://www.strath.ac.uk/Other/invention-ensemble>
Dingbat
2016-08-31 21:45:46 UTC
Permalink
J. Simon van der Walt wrote ...
I am looking of a word, in any language other than English, which means
the same as 'brotherhood' or 'fraternity', but which is gender neutral.
I am a composer, and I am writing a piece of music which sets the text
of Article 1 of the Universal Declararion of Human Rights;
[snip URL]
I am concerned that 'brotherhood' is not a gender neutral term, and I
want to replace it with a word from another language which has the same
sense but no gender bias.
Are you looking specifically for translations of "brotherhood" as used by
the UNHCR or UN member states? Or would you accept any gender neutral
synonyms? If the former, I suggest you may have to slog through the various
translations you refer to. If the latter, there may be several in English,
with still more in various languages used by the UN. Might I humbly
suggest: solidarity, unity, harmony, or concord?
Excellent suggestions! If/ since nations have interests rather than friendships, 'concord' might work best for replacing 'brotherhood' in a 'brotherhood of states.'

Do you have a gender neutral term that could replace brotherhood in this song?

Of all the suggestions I've seen on this thread, fellowship seems the most suitable gender neutral replacement for 'brotherhood' in this song:

A brotherhood of man - from John Lennon's Imagine
http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/johnlennon/imagine.html
v***@gmail.com
2018-01-18 02:02:40 UTC
Permalink
I am looking of a word, in any language other than English, which means
the same as 'brotherhood' or 'fraternity', but which is gender neutral.
I am a composer, and I am writing a piece of music which sets the text
of Article 1 of the Universal Declararion of Human Rights;
'All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are
endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in
a spirit of brotherhood.'
<http://www.unhchr.ch/udhr>
I am concerned that 'brotherhood' is not a gender neutral term, and I
want to replace it with a word from another language which has the same
sense but no gender bias.
The UNHCR site referenced above has translations of the UDHR in many
languages. In some languages the word used is similar to 'fraternity',
which is also not gender neutral.
The only concrete suggestion I have so far is the Irish Gaelic word
'comhaltas', but the official tranlsation of the UDHR, to which I wish
to adhere if possible, gives 'bhrthreachais', 'of brotherhood' (also
apparently misspelled; should be 'bhraithreachais').
Finnish was suggested as a language with some gender neutral features,
but the word used in this case is not.
I would welcome any suggestions; perhaps email responses would be best,
although I will monitor this group for a while.
Thanks in advance,
--
J. Simon van der Walt
Composer
My home page <http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~waltp>
invention ensemble
<http://www.strath.ac.uk/Other/invention-ensemble>
I know this is stupid, nay, idiotic, but how about 'siblinghood?'
Helmut Richter
2018-01-18 12:21:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by v***@gmail.com
I am concerned that 'brotherhood' is not a gender neutral term, and I
want to replace it with a word from another language which has the same
sense but no gender bias.
I know this is stupid, nay, idiotic, but how about 'siblinghood?'
It depends on the meaning of gender-awareness and gender-equality. Does
a word fulfil these criteria, ...

(1) if its meaning has encompassed people of both genders, at least
until gender-awareness was publicly promoted,

(2) if it etymologically derives from a word not restricted to one
gender, or

(3) if it meets the consent of people critically observing and
gender-equality?

These three criteria have hardly anything in common. The etymology of a
word does not determine its past or present meaning, and
gender-awareness watchers have not normally a knowledge of either.

Example 1: German "Leute" (people -- the Plurale tantum as in "people do
never ...", not the noun with singular and plural as in "many peoples
are living ...")

(1) no gender-specitic meaning, neither past nor present

(2) cognate of Ru "lyudi" (people, same sense), Grc "eleutheros" (free),
Ang-Sax "lēod": none with gender-spefitic meaning

(3) not gender-aware: a word like "Kaufleute" (business people) has to
be replaced by "Kaufmänner und Kauffrauen" (business men and business
women) to demonstrate gender awareness.

As an answer to the question: Example 2: German "Geschwister" (sibling(s))

(1) traditionally used only as Plurale tantum to mean "brothers and
sisters" as distinct from "Brüder" (brothers) and "Schwestern"
(sisters). In recent times used in the singular with a meaning of sibling.

(2) derives from "Schwester" (sister), cognate of "sister", strictly
gender-specific

(3) not always considered gender-unaware, but when newer Bible
translations were made less male-biased, "Brüder" was replaced by
"Brüder und Schwestern", not by "Geschwister". The latter was considered
incorrect because although it uncontestly means brothers and sisters, it
does so by taking the gender-equality for granted instead of emphasising
it, as in example 1.

Now, the word "Geschwisterlichkeit" (siblinghood) does exist (see
https://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/Geschwisterlichkeit) to replace
"Brüderlichkeit" but the other examples show that it will have a hard
time to be regarded as gender-correct.
--
Helmut Richter
Daud Deden
2018-01-18 17:17:08 UTC
Permalink
J. Simon van der Walt
Composer
-
Not what you specified, but as an offering, 'companions'.
António Marques
2018-01-18 22:52:36 UTC
Permalink
J. Simon van der Walt
Composer
-
Not what you specified, but as an offering, 'companions'.
Look....
- this was asked 18 YEARS ago
- it specifically wanted a word that is used in some official translation
of the thing. That excludes English as a candidate.

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