/ru:m/ for Rome and the Gods of the Copybook Headings

[Aidan Kehoe]

“We moved as the Spirit listed. They never altered their pace.
Being neither cloud nor wind-borne like the Gods of the Market Place,
But they always caught up with our progress, and presently word would come
That a tribe had been wiped off its icefield, or the lights had gone out in
Rome.”

The old pronunciation of <Rome> as /ruːm/ in English was mentioned on a
Languagehat thread the other day,
https://languagehat.com/war-words/#comment-4604383 . OED2 comments “The pron
(ruːm), indicated by the old spelling Room(e) and by the rime with doom etc.
was retained by some educated speakers as late as the 19th cent.”

Kipling came out with it in 1919; I read the poem at intervals and this
interval happened to be shortly after the Languagehat thread.

[jerryfriedman]

Post by Aidan Kehoe
“We moved as the Spirit listed. They never altered their pace.
Being neither cloud nor wind-borne like the Gods of the Market Place,
But they always caught up with our progress, and presently word would come
That a tribe had been wiped off its icefield, or the lights had gone out in
Rome.”
The old pronunciation of <Rome> as /ruːm/ in English was mentioned on a
Languagehat thread the other day,
https://languagehat.com/war-words/#comment-4604383 . OED2 comments “The pron
(ruːm), indicated by the old spelling Room(e) and by the rime with doom etc.
was retained by some educated speakers as late as the 19th cent.”
Kipling came out with it in 1919; I read the poem at intervals and this
interval happened to be shortly after the Languagehat thread.

I don't follow, since "come" doesn't rhyme with "doom". Kipling's rhyme
looks like an ordinary eye rhyme, though I don't know whether at some
point "come" rhymed with some pronunciation of "Rome".

--
Jerry Friedman

[Aidan Kehoe]

[...] I don't follow, since "come" doesn't rhyme with "doom". Kipling's
rhyme looks like an ordinary eye rhyme, though I don't know whether at some
point "come" rhymed with some pronunciation of "Rome".

Well, it certainly doesn’t rhyme with the current pronunciation of <Rome>, and
it comes much closer to rhyming with <doom>.

[jerryfriedman]

Post by jerryfriedman

[...] I don't follow, since "come" doesn't rhyme with "doom".

Kipling's

rhyme looks like an ordinary eye rhyme, though I don't know whether

at some

point "come" rhymed with some pronunciation of "Rome".

Well, it certainly doesn’t rhyme with the current pronunciation of <Rome>, and
it comes much closer to rhyming with <doom>.

Closer in what dialect? Not mine, not that it's relevant to
Kipling. You can hear his pronunciation in a speech at

I still think the spelling was at least as important as the sound,
and Kipling was much more likely to rhyme "Rome" with "come"
than with "hum", "dumb", etc.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Steve Hayes]

Post by Aidan Kehoe

[...] I don't follow, since "come" doesn't rhyme with "doom". Kipling's
rhyme looks like an ordinary eye rhyme, though I don't know whether at some
point "come" rhymed with some pronunciation of "Rome".

Well, it certainly doesn’t rhyme with the current pronunciation of <Rome>, and
it comes much closer to rhyming with <doom>.

It's just the pronunciation of those who are fraffly well-spoken, and
rhymes with the way they pronounce "spoken" - in front of their teeth,
with lips pursed.

They, of course, accuse those they regard as less well-spoken of
"swallowing their vowels".

[Tilde]

Post by Steve Hayes
It's just the pronunciation of those who are fraffly well-spoken, and

"fraffly" - had to google that ;)

[Steve Hayes]

Post by Tilde

Post by Steve Hayes
It's just the pronunciation of those who are fraffly well-spoken, and

"fraffly" - had to google that ;)

Pommy version of "Let stalk Strine" and "Ah Big Yaws".

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Tilde

Post by Steve Hayes
It's just the pronunciation of those who are fraffly well-spoken, and

"fraffly" - had to google that ;)

Pommy version of "Let stalk Strine" and "Ah Big Yaws".

Good to see that Danes are not the only ones that can compact words into
unrecognizable sounds.

[Chris Elvidge]

Post by Aidan Kehoe
“We moved as the Spirit listed. They never altered their pace.
Being neither cloud nor wind-borne like the Gods of the Market Place,
But they always caught up with our progress, and presently word would come
That a tribe had been wiped off its icefield, or the lights had gone out in
Rome.”
The old pronunciation of <Rome> as /ruːm/ in English was mentioned on a
Languagehat thread the other day,
https://languagehat.com/war-words/#comment-4604383 . OED2 comments “The pron
(ruːm), indicated by the old spelling Room(e) and by the rime with doom etc.
was retained by some educated speakers as late as the 19th cent.”
Kipling came out with it in 1919; I read the poem at intervals and this
interval happened to be shortly after the Languagehat thread.

Yes, but Kipling was a poet. Poets have been known to take liberties
with pronunciation to get their poems to rhyme.
It seems 'forced rhyming' is a thing. Google 'forced rhyme in poetry'.