Hebrew 'to pray' להתפלל is pronominal: what is its etymology ?

[Sébastien de Mapias]

Hello,
Does someone know the etymology of this verb ?
It is reflexive, quite unusual isn't it ?
Had the shoresh פלל once another meaning ?

Thanks.
Seb

[Yusuf B Gursey]

Post by Sébastien de Mapias
Hello,
Does someone know the etymology of this verb ?

BDB gives the orijinal meaning of pAlal as "to intervene, interpose"

Post by Sébastien de Mapias
It is reflexive, quite unusual isn't it ?
Had the shoresh פלל once another meaning ?
Thanks.
Seb

[Sébastien de Mapias]

"BDB" ??

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Sébastien de Mapias
"BDB" ??

So you've never actually studied Hebrew.

The *Hebrew-English Lexicon* by Brown, Driver, and Briggs has been basically
the only widely available scholarly dictionary of Hebrew in English for 104
years now.

Which is very unfortunate, since it predates the discovery, let alone the
intepretation, of Ugaritic by a quarter-century.

[DKleinecke]

Post by Peter T. Daniels
The *Hebrew-English Lexicon* by Brown, Driver, and Briggs has been basically
the only widely available scholarly dictionary of Hebrew in English for 104
years now.
Which is very unfortunate, since it predates the discovery, let alone the
intepretation, of Ugaritic by a quarter-century.

Not to mention Eastern Semitic.

We really do need a new edition.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

Post by DKleinecke

Post by Peter T. Daniels
The *Hebrew-English Lexicon* by Brown, Driver, and Briggs has been basically
the only widely available scholarly dictionary of Hebrew in English for 104
years now.
Which is very unfortunate, since it predates the discovery, let alone the
intepretation, of Ugaritic by a quarter-century.

Not to mention Eastern Semitic.
We really do need a new edition.

East Semitic comparisions are made, though some may be dated and more
East Semitic vocabulary may have been discovered since.

The etymological dictionary covers the Hebrew of the Old Testament, as
well as the Aramaic of the Old Testament.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Post by Sébastien de Mapias
Does someone know the etymology of this verb ?

Online I found this:

entreat, judgment, make prayer make supplication

A primitive root; to judge (officially or mentally);
by extension, to intercede, pray -- intreat, judge(-ment),
(make) pray(-er, -ing), make supplication.

You came here before, so you know about my Magdalenian
adventure. The Hebrew verb palal is pronounced paw-lal'
which inspires my reading

PAS ) )

PAD means activity of feet, and the comparative form
PAS means everywhere (in a plain), here, south and north
of me, east and west of me, in all five places, Greek
pas pan 'all, every' pente penta- 'five'. Inverse SAP
means everywhere (in space), here, south and north of me,
east and west of me, under and above me, in all seven places
wherefrom words for seven in many languages including Hebrew
sheb, also Greek sophia 'wisdom' and Latin sapientia
'worldly wisdom' acquired by exploring the world and knowing it
in all the seven places. ) denotes a smacking L - curve your
tongue, let the tip of your tongue slide along the palate,
and let your tongue smack into its wet bed - with a little
exercising, for example on a pleasure walk in a wood,
you can produce an audible smack. ) accounts for Hebrew El
'He who has the say' and Arabic Al, in the longer form of
)OG for (Al)lah and Greek logos 'word, reason, etc.'
Together we have

PAS ) )
everywhere PAS to have the say ) to have the say )
free translation: to have the say in all matters,
praying, judging, intervening, regulating the human
affairs and communicating with the divine above

[Yusuf B Gursey]

In <99a7b683-14ad-4749-b581-***@googlegroups.com>, Franz
Gnaedinger wrote on 9/11/2014:

Buzz off.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Post by Franz Gnaedinger

Post by Sébastien de Mapias
Does someone know the etymology of this verb ?

entreat, judgment, make prayer make supplication
A primitive root; to judge (officially or mentally);
by extension, to intercede, pray -- intreat, judge(-ment),
(make) pray(-er, -ing), make supplication.
You came here before, so you know about my Magdalenian
adventure. The Hebrew verb palal is pronounced paw-lal'
which inspires my reading
PAS ) )
PAD means activity of feet, and the comparative form
PAS means everywhere (in a plain), here, south and north
of me, east and west of me, in all five places, Greek
pas pan 'all, every' pente penta- 'five'. Inverse SAP
means everywhere (in space), here, south and north of me,
east and west of me, under and above me, in all seven places
wherefrom words for seven in many languages including Hebrew
sheb, also Greek sophia 'wisdom' and Latin sapientia
'worldly wisdom' acquired by exploring the world and knowing it
in all the seven places. ) denotes a smacking L - curve your
tongue, let the tip of your tongue slide along the palate,
and let your tongue smack into its wet bed - with a little
exercising, for example on a pleasure walk in a wood,
you can produce an audible smack. ) accounts for Hebrew El
'He who has the say' and Arabic Al, in the longer form of
)OG for (Al)lah and Greek logos 'word, reason, etc.'
Together we have
PAS ) )
everywhere PAS to have the say ) to have the say )
free translation: to have the say in all matters,
praying, judging, intervening, regulating the human
affairs and communicating with the divine above

Linkedin informed me that Yusuf Gürsey finished his
online course on linguistics. I din't open the mail,
just got it from the title. Told Linkedin many times
I don't want to know about every breath Yusuf Gürsey
takes and every move he makes. Doesn't help.
I am getting informed. So now he has absolved his
online course and is a linguist and can drop verdicts
and tell me to buzz off. No argument needed.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

On another website I found this

(quote)

"T'FILLIN" comes from the Hebrew root word PALAL which means to pray. PALAL is not used in the Bible in its simple root form. It is used as nouns. In these derived forms it has the meaning of JUDGING. This is a derivation from the idea of cutting or deciding. The primary idea of this word is to roll or to revolve, hence to make even by rolling. It means to level with a roller, hence to lay even a cause or to arbitrate. It carries the idea of judging or to execute judgement. It can be used for thinking or "supposing" as in Genesis 48:11. Generally, it means to intercede, to supplicate or to pray. Proper prayer seeks to awaken God's favour.

(unquote)

Will have to reconsider my reading. Either the above sense
of palal is an overforming of my Magdalenian reading,
or there is another root at work. More tomorrow, will sleep
over the question.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Genesis 20:17

So Abraham prayed unto God

Abraham 'father of peoples' overforms the older Abram
(see Genesis 17:5) which I derive from ABA BRA,
father ABA right arm BRA - he carries out the will
of the heavenly father ABA with his right arm BRA,
getting everywhere PAS in Asia Minor, having the say )
in form of a prayer, and having the say ) in form of
a judgement, PAS ) ) palal.

The prayer may have been represented by a sign on the
forehead, the judgement by a sign on a biceps, indicating
the Holy Scriptures that were carried around wherever
one went in symbolic form

everywhere PAS
having the say ) in form of a prayer
and having the say ) in form of a judgment
PAS ) )
palal

Prayer and judgement alternate each other for example
in Psalm V by David

1) Give ear to my word, O Lord,
considering my meditation.
2) Hearken unto the voice of my cry,
my King, my God: for unto thee I will pray.
3) My voice shalt thou hear in the morning,
O Lord; in the morning will I direct my prayer
unto thee, and will look up.
4) For thou art not a god that has pleasure
in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell in thee.
5) The foolish shall not stand in thy sight:
thou hatest all workers of inequity.
6) Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing:
the Lord will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.
...

Prayer: may the Lord listen (1 2 3 ...)
Judgement: may the Lord roll over the wicked (4 5 6 ...)

The sign on the forehead may have been a standing triangle,
symbolizing the prayer directed to the Lord above, while
the sign on a biceps might have been a hanging triangle,
indicating the judgement of the wicked carried out
in the name of the Lord, each triangle equilateral,
combined in the Star of David ?

[Yusuf B Gursey]

In <49452c66-2995-4a26-99d3-***@googlegroups.com>, Franz
Gnaedinger wrote on 9/13/2014:

What you are doing is simply rude.

You put in your two cents, albeit counterfeit, into the thread. Please
at least do the contunuation on a seperarte "Magdalenian" thread. You
know you will get less flamed this way.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Genesis 20:17
So Abraham prayed unto God
Abraham 'father of peoples' overforms the older Abram
(see Genesis 17:5) which I derive from ABA BRA,
father ABA right arm BRA - he carries out the will
of the heavenly father ABA with his right arm BRA,
getting everywhere PAS in Asia Minor, having the say )
in form of a prayer, and having the say ) in form of
a judgement, PAS ) ) palal.
The prayer may have been represented by a sign on the
forehead, the judgement by a sign on a biceps, indicating
the Holy Scriptures that were carried around wherever
one went in symbolic form
everywhere PAS
having the say ) in form of a prayer
and having the say ) in form of a judgment
PAS ) )
palal
Prayer and judgement alternate each other for example
in Psalm V by David
1) Give ear to my word, O Lord,
considering my meditation.
2) Hearken unto the voice of my cry,
my King, my God: for unto thee I will pray.
3) My voice shalt thou hear in the morning,
O Lord; in the morning will I direct my prayer
unto thee, and will look up.
4) For thou art not a god that has pleasure
in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell in thee.
thou hatest all workers of inequity.
the Lord will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.
...
Prayer: may the Lord listen (1 2 3 ...)
Judgement: may the Lord roll over the wicked (4 5 6 ...)
The sign on the forehead may have been a standing triangle,
symbolizing the prayer directed to the Lord above, while
the sign on a biceps might have been a hanging triangle,
indicating the judgement of the wicked carried out
in the name of the Lord, each triangle equilateral,
combined in the Star of David ?

Answering a question and developing an idea is rude?
Telling me to buzz off is what's rude.

As for the triangles, I found the oldest hexagram
on a ring from Canaan (can't find it again in my books).
The two triangles above each other appear on the curved
ivory box from Safadi, Beersheba culture, 3 500 BC,
one standing on the Earth (hill, imagine a high priest
on the top) touched by a triangle hanging from the sky
(God, judging, punishing the wicked, blessing the good).
On a Punic stelae the body of a supplicant with raised
arms forms a perfect geometric triangle. A small clay
object from Hazor, time of Solomon, has the head of
a bull engraved in the form of a V (hanging triangle),
with a pair of eyes. One eye may receive the prayers,
the other carry out the judging. Between the horns is
a solar disc, referring to Egypt, however, on the disc
is engraved a cross that evokes the five places of PAS
- here (center), south and north of me, east and west
of me (ends of the axes). Othmar Keel assumes that also
Jahweh had been worshipped in the guise of a bull,
for there was found a figurine of a bronze bull on top
of a hill near Samaria. Then there are zigzag lines,
omnipresent in early art, with multiple meanings, now
also the one of prayer (hills) and judgement (spaces).

As for the pair of signs on forehead and biceps:
palal accounts for t'fillin, a pair of small boxes
containing scriptures, one strapped to the forehead
and the other to the left biceps of a praying Jew.
The forerunner of these boxes might well have been
painted signs or tattoos (the body of Oetzi from
Sardinia who died on the Similaun glacier is covered
in tattoos.)

A genuine decipherment opens a window on the past
while a pseudo-decipherment is just a window painted
on the wall. Same holds for etymologies. Mine open
windows on the past. I surley have a right to post
and develop my ideas here.

O=nce again the double formula naming the supreme
sky and weather god of the Chalcolithic, Bronze Age
and Iron Age, initially in the guise of a bull

ShA PAD TYR AS CA
DhAG PAD TYR AS CA

I explained this formula many times. It contains
the names of many gods, for example ShA PAD TYR
Jupitter Jupiter Jovis Giove, also TYR as the one
who overcomes in the double sense of rule and give,
emphatic Sseyr on the Phaistos Disc (Derk Ohlenroth)
Doric Sseus (Wilhelm Larfeld) Homeric Zeus. A short
form named Jahwe

ShA CA
DhAG CA

as ruler ShA in the sky CA, able one DhAG in the sky CA.
Jahwe was a strom god, 'rider of clouds', from Mount Seir
(evoking TYR Sseyr). Now this double formula may be
re-evaluated in the light of palal

prayer addressing the ruler in the sky ShA CA
judging done by the able one in the sky DhAG CA

[Yusuf B Gursey]

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Answering a question and developing an idea is rude?

"Develop" your idea elsewhere. You made your point, now you are going
off on a tangent.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Telling me to buzz off is what's rude.

If you had behaved in the past, I wouldn't have told you to buzz off.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Answering a question and developing an idea is rude?
Telling me to buzz off is what's rude.
As for the triangles, I found the oldest hexagram
on a ring from Canaan (can't find it again in my books).
The two triangles above each other appear on the curved
ivory box from Safadi, Beersheba culture, 3 500 BC,
one standing on the Earth (hill, imagine a high priest
on the top) touched by a triangle hanging from the sky
(God, judging, punishing the wicked, blessing the good).
On a Punic stelae the body of a supplicant with raised
arms forms a perfect geometric triangle. A small clay
object from Hazor, time of Solomon, has the head of
a bull engraved in the form of a V (hanging triangle),
with a pair of eyes. One eye may receive the prayers,
the other carry out the judging. Between the horns is
a solar disc, referring to Egypt, however, on the disc
is engraved a cross that evokes the five places of PAS
- here (center), south and north of me, east and west
of me (ends of the axes). Othmar Keel assumes that also
Jahweh had been worshipped in the guise of a bull,
for there was found a figurine of a bronze bull on top
of a hill near Samaria. Then there are zigzag lines,
omnipresent in early art, with multiple meanings, now
also the one of prayer (hills) and judgement (spaces).
palal accounts for t'fillin, a pair of small boxes
containing scriptures, one strapped to the forehead
and the other to the left biceps of a praying Jew.
The forerunner of these boxes might well have been
painted signs or tattoos (the body of Oetzi from
Sardinia who died on the Similaun glacier is covered
in tattoos.)
A genuine decipherment opens a window on the past
while a pseudo-decipherment is just a window painted
on the wall. Same holds for etymologies. Mine open
windows on the past. I surley have a right to post
and develop my ideas here.
O=nce again the double formula naming the supreme
sky and weather god of the Chalcolithic, Bronze Age
and Iron Age, initially in the guise of a bull
ShA PAD TYR AS CA
DhAG PAD TYR AS CA
I explained this formula many times. It contains
the names of many gods, for example ShA PAD TYR
Jupitter Jupiter Jovis Giove, also TYR as the one
who overcomes in the double sense of rule and give,
emphatic Sseyr on the Phaistos Disc (Derk Ohlenroth)
Doric Sseus (Wilhelm Larfeld) Homeric Zeus. A short
form named Jahwe
ShA CA
DhAG CA
as ruler ShA in the sky CA, able one DhAG in the sky CA.
Jahwe was a strom god, 'rider of clouds', from Mount Seir
(evoking TYR Sseyr). Now this double formula may be
re-evaluated in the light of palal
prayer addressing the ruler in the sky ShA CA
judging done by the able one in the sky DhAG CA

The problem with online courses is that you learn a lot
along the textbook perspective but are neither helped
nor challenged by changes of the perspective. A good
personal teacher sees where you have a specific problem
and so turns the question around, until you grasp the
concept, also challenges you by looking at things from
a different angle. I was lucky to have several very
good teachers who were pleased by my quick and easy way
of grasping ideas, and so, in private, they told me things
you find in no textbook. For example Pater Rupert Ruhstaller
OSB gave me private lessons on his alternative grammar based
on arguments and functors and visualized in budding circles.
Completely different from all we read in our schoolbooks!
I exclaimed. Yes, completely different, he smiled. He published
his alternative grammar, but only in text form, leaving out
his drawings. I may be the only one who knows about them,
and published them online

http://www.seshat.ch/home/grammar.htm

If you learn my way, not only along textbooks but also
changing the perspective, and following ideas and projects
of your own, you gain what psychologists call apperception
and what I call an organic knowledge, a functional knowledge,
whereas textbook learning alone results in a dis-functional
knowledge - you believe to know a lot but fail when you
are confronted with a new perspective, and so must escape
to meta-levels and resort to invectives.

When I gave private lessons for two care organizations
- very successfully, if I say so myself - I helped my pupils
the same way, turning around the subject matter until they
grasped an idea. Now I do the same in matters of early
language where I change the temporal perspective: no longer
struggling against but following the flow of time.

All ye who suffer from a massive online course ken MOCK
- you can get help here, from me, I discuss a question
with you personally, showing you that you can leave
the textbook railway and look at things differently.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

Post by Franz Gnaedinger

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Answering a question and developing an idea is rude?
Telling me to buzz off is what's rude.
As for the triangles, I found the oldest hexagram
on a ring from Canaan (can't find it again in my books).
The two triangles above each other appear on the curved
ivory box from Safadi, Beersheba culture, 3 500 BC,
one standing on the Earth (hill, imagine a high priest
on the top) touched by a triangle hanging from the sky
(God, judging, punishing the wicked, blessing the good).
On a Punic stelae the body of a supplicant with raised
arms forms a perfect geometric triangle. A small clay
object from Hazor, time of Solomon, has the head of
a bull engraved in the form of a V (hanging triangle),
with a pair of eyes. One eye may receive the prayers,
the other carry out the judging. Between the horns is
a solar disc, referring to Egypt, however, on the disc
is engraved a cross that evokes the five places of PAS
- here (center), south and north of me, east and west
of me (ends of the axes). Othmar Keel assumes that also
Jahweh had been worshipped in the guise of a bull,
for there was found a figurine of a bronze bull on top
of a hill near Samaria. Then there are zigzag lines,
omnipresent in early art, with multiple meanings, now
also the one of prayer (hills) and judgement (spaces).
palal accounts for t'fillin, a pair of small boxes
containing scriptures, one strapped to the forehead
and the other to the left biceps of a praying Jew.
The forerunner of these boxes might well have been
painted signs or tattoos (the body of Oetzi from
Sardinia who died on the Similaun glacier is covered
in tattoos.)
A genuine decipherment opens a window on the past
while a pseudo-decipherment is just a window painted
on the wall. Same holds for etymologies. Mine open
windows on the past. I surley have a right to post
and develop my ideas here.
O=nce again the double formula naming the supreme
sky and weather god of the Chalcolithic, Bronze Age
and Iron Age, initially in the guise of a bull
ShA PAD TYR AS CA
DhAG PAD TYR AS CA
I explained this formula many times. It contains
the names of many gods, for example ShA PAD TYR
Jupitter Jupiter Jovis Giove, also TYR as the one
who overcomes in the double sense of rule and give,
emphatic Sseyr on the Phaistos Disc (Derk Ohlenroth)
Doric Sseus (Wilhelm Larfeld) Homeric Zeus. A short
form named Jahwe
ShA CA
DhAG CA
as ruler ShA in the sky CA, able one DhAG in the sky CA.
Jahwe was a strom god, 'rider of clouds', from Mount Seir
(evoking TYR Sseyr). Now this double formula may be
re-evaluated in the light of palal
prayer addressing the ruler in the sky ShA CA
judging done by the able one in the sky DhAG CA

The problem with online courses is that you learn a lot
along the textbook perspective but are neither helped
nor challenged by changes of the perspective. A good
personal teacher sees where you have a specific problem
and so turns the question around, until you grasp the
concept, also challenges you by looking at things from
a different angle. I was lucky to have several very
good teachers who were pleased by my quick and easy way
of grasping ideas, and so, in private, they told me things
you find in no textbook. For example Pater Rupert Ruhstaller
OSB gave me private lessons on his alternative grammar based
on arguments and functors and visualized in budding circles.
Completely different from all we read in our schoolbooks!
I exclaimed. Yes, completely different, he smiled. He published
his alternative grammar, but only in text form, leaving out
his drawings. I may be the only one who knows about them,
and published them online
http://www.seshat.ch/home/grammar.htm
If you learn my way, not only along textbooks but also
changing the perspective, and following ideas and projects
of your own, you gain what psychologists call apperception
and what I call an organic knowledge, a functional knowledge,
whereas textbook learning alone results in a dis-functional
knowledge - you believe to know a lot but fail when you
are confronted with a new perspective, and so must escape
to meta-levels and resort to invectives.
When I gave private lessons for two care organizations
- very successfully, if I say so myself - I helped my pupils
the same way, turning around the subject matter until they
grasped an idea. Now I do the same in matters of early
language where I change the temporal perspective: no longer
struggling against but following the flow of time.
All ye who suffer from a massive online course ken MOCK
- you can get help here, from me, I discuss a question
with you personally, showing you that you can leave
the textbook railway and look at things differently.

I am fine without *your* "perspective."

[DKleinecke]

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Pater Rupert Ruhstaller
OSB gave me private lessons on his alternative grammar based
on arguments and functors and visualized in budding circles.
Completely different from all we read in our schoolbooks!
I exclaimed. Yes, completely different, he smiled. He published
his alternative grammar, but only in text form, leaving out
his drawings. I may be the only one who knows about them,
and published them online

I had never seen nor heard of Ruhstaller and my
German is not up to task of reading his book.

But his diagrams look to me like a version of dependency
grammar using circles rather than the ordinary graphs. I
gather he also wrestled with the problem of a free word
order language (Latin).

I imagine that European linguists are aware of his work
and have evaluated it. Here in the US we tend to view
European linguistics as a bit off center and, of course,
vice versa.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Post by DKleinecke
I had never seen nor heard of Ruhstaller and my
German is not up to task of reading his book.
But his diagrams look to me like a version of dependency
grammar using circles rather than the ordinary graphs. I
gather he also wrestled with the problem of a free word
order language (Latin).
I imagine that European linguists are aware of his work
and have evaluated it. Here in the US we tend to view
European linguistics as a bit off center and, of course,
vice versa.

Nor can I read his doctoral thesis on the structure
of sentences in Aischylos, way tooooo complicated.
But his drawings are exciting. I gave him examples
of the most complicated sentences, and he drew
the diagrams very quickly, without thinking, just
like that, so they must render a truly inherent
structure of language. I don't know about dependency
grammar. Ruhstaller's grammar belongs to structuralism,
I have been told by a professor. Whatever this means.
A few years ago I heard something I understand (not
being keen on labels): early word language (from about
two million years ago) indicated what and how and where
(something like that) which reminded me of the functor
and arguments of Ruhstaller. And yes, he cared about
word order. His grammar is the only one that considers
word order in languages where it is free, Greek and Latin
for example. Look up the diagram of the opening sentence
of Virgil's Aeneid. He drew the diagram for me, as copy
of the original diagram he drew up in the priest seminary
at Fribourg in Switzerland in the 1950s, where, one foggy
morning in autumn, around eleven o'clock, he had an idea:
what if I compare the natural word order - main functor
and arguments followed by minor functors and arguments -
to the actual word order? He gave the former as line,
the latter as row, and connected the cross-points with
a zigzag line. The exciting thing was that the peaks
of the (green) zigzag line render the words that carry
most meaning: the opening lines are a summary of the epic,
and the peaks in the Ruhstaller stress diagram the summary
of the summary! It's a pity that Ruhstaller missed the
Computer Age, the era of cheap personal computers.
He could have presented his alternative grammar and
plenty of drawings on the screen, and published them
online.

[DKleinecke]

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
I don't know about dependency
grammar. Ruhstaller's grammar belongs to structuralism,
I have been told by a professor.

Structuralism is a label whose meaning shifts with
whoever uses it. Without knowing your professor's own
pre-occupations I can't tell you exactly what he meant.

I would guess, given no additional data, that he meant
by structuralism modern linguistics as opposed to old
nineteenth (and earlier) book grammar. Dependency
grammar is structuralist in that sense.

The linguistic articles in Wikipedia almost always make
a point of describing how dependency grammar handles each
matter and to contrast it with the Chomskian version.

To a Chomskian structuralist means anything not Chomskian.
But, as has been repeatedly demonstrated, Chomksian
linguistics is just as structuralist as anything else.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Post by DKleinecke
Structuralism is a label whose meaning shifts with
whoever uses it. Without knowing your professor's own
pre-occupations I can't tell you exactly what he meant.
I would guess, given no additional data, that he meant
by structuralism modern linguistics as opposed to old
nineteenth (and earlier) book grammar. Dependency
grammar is structuralist in that sense.
The linguistic articles in Wikipedia almost always make
a point of describing how dependency grammar handles each
matter and to contrast it with the Chomskian version.
To a Chomskian structuralist means anything not Chomskian.
But, as has been repeatedly demonstrated, Chomksian
linguistics is just as structuralist as anything else.

All sciences find and name invisible structures,
visualize them, and finally goe for a technical application.
The 1950s were the heyday of structuralism. Claude Lévi
Strauss and others understood language as trading.
They came close to a real understanding of language,
just modify their opinion: language mediates trading,
trading understood in the widest sense possible.

As for grammar: what you say in your thread 'core and
margin' seems to me a reformulation of 'functor and
argument' - the functor in the center of a circle
and the arguments on the circumference.

Vision is processed by thirty or more areas of the
human brain. I think grammar is the same, achieved
by the cooperation of several or many areas. No single
grammar can account for all the aspects of language.
For example word language was and still is embedded
in gestures. And either the Brocca or the Werrnicke
center is not only concerned about language but also
about motorics. I support a multi-dimensional approach
in grammar studies, and the computer as a fantastic
device of visualizing the various competing models that,
I believe, cooperate, most of the time very well,
only sometimes failing and thus providing telltale
indications of the underlying processes (plural).

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
The 1950s were the heyday of structuralism. Claude Lévi
Strauss and others understood language as trading.

Please provide a reference where Levi-Strauss said that.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Please provide a reference where Levi-Strauss said that.

Exchange, language is exchange. His basic example
are marriage customs in the tropes, as I recall.
A summary is in the linguistic novel about
a man in a chair in the air above Pluvov, or so.
We had this before. You found the name of the author
and the titel of the novel, a very funny one
(it's a pity that I gave it away, but I can't keep
all the books I ever owned).

Language is exchange. I modify it as follows:
language mediates exchange (language on the basic
level being the means of getting help, support
and understanding).

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Post by Franz Gnaedinger

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Please provide a reference where Levi-Strauss said that.

Exchange, language is exchange. His basic example
are marriage customs in the tropes, as I recall.
A summary is in the linguistic novel about
a man in a chair in the air above Pluvov, or so.
We had this before. You found the name of the author
and the titel of the novel, a very funny one
(it's a pity that I gave it away, but I can't keep
all the books I ever owned).
language mediates exchange (language on the basic
level being the means of getting help, support
and understanding).

Google for

claude levy strauss exchange

One of the results:

Claude Levi-Strauss - Page 45 - Google Books Result
books.google.ch/books?isbn=0226469689
Edmund Leach - 1989 - Biography & Autobiography
These individuals communicate with one another by "exchange"; they exchange words; they exchange gifts. These words and gifts communicate information ...

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Franz Gnaedinger

Post by Franz Gnaedinger

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Please provide a reference where Levi-Strauss said that.

Exchange, language is exchange. His basic example
are marriage customs in the tropes, as I recall.
A summary is in the linguistic novel about
a man in a chair in the air above Pluvov, or so.
We had this before. You found the name of the author
and the titel of the novel, a very funny one
(it's a pity that I gave it away, but I can't keep
all the books I ever owned).
language mediates exchange (language on the basic
level being the means of getting help, support
and understanding).

Google for
claude levy strauss exchange

No, that wouldn't get you anywhere (except for Google's mistake-
overlooker).

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Claude Levi-Strauss - Page 45 - Google Books Result
books.google.ch/books?isbn=0226469689
Edmund Leach - 1989 - Biography & Autobiography

"Die Seiten 16 bis 149 werden in dieser Leseprobe nicht angezeigt."
But it doesn't matter, since this is not a reference to Levi-Strauss.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
These individuals communicate with one another by "exchange"; they exchange words; they exchange gifts. These words and gifts communicate information ...

So it's still the same old problem: you equate "language"
and "communication." You are still wrong.

[DKleinecke]

Post by Peter T. Daniels
So it's still the same old problem: you equate "language"
and "communication." You are still wrong.

Certainly it is wrong as "equate". Language is one way
of communicating - but not all communication is language.

Perhaps we should just read Franz replacing his "language"
with "communication".

But that would not excuse Magdelanian.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Post by DKleinecke
Certainly it is wrong as "equate". Language is one way
of communicating - but not all communication is language.
Perhaps we should just read Franz replacing his "language"
with "communication".
But that would not excuse Magdelanian.

If language is a car, communication is the traffic.
Where there is traffic, there are vehicles in motion.
Where there is communication, there is language in action
language in the basic sense of my definition from 1974/74

Language is the means of getting help, support
and understanding from those we depend upon
in one way or another -- and every means of
getting help, support and understanding may
be called language, on whatever level of life
it occurs ...

Language, in my opinion, is a basic feature of life,
and may be considered the intelligence of life:
using language we achieve more than if we were all
on our own, or the same with less effort and energy.

Word language can be seen as a triangle whose corners
are life with needs and wishes; mathematics as logic
of building and maintaining, based on the formula a = a ;
and art as human measure in a technical world, based on
Goethe's world formula and ever turning key: all is equal,
all unequal ...

[Yusuf B Gursey]

Post by Franz Gnaedinger

Post by DKleinecke
Certainly it is wrong as "equate". Language is one way
of communicating - but not all communication is language.
Perhaps we should just read Franz replacing his "language"
with "communication".
But that would not excuse Magdelanian.

If language is a car, communication is the traffic.
Where there is traffic, there are vehicles in motion.
Where there is communication, there is language in action
language in the basic sense of my definition from 1974/74
Language is the means of getting help, support
and understanding from those we depend upon
in one way or another -- and every means of
getting help, support and understanding may
be called language, on whatever level of life
it occurs ...

So basically you are saying that you don't use language in this forum.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Language, in my opinion, is a basic feature of life,
using language we achieve more than if we were all
on our own, or the same with less effort and energy.
Word language can be seen as a triangle whose corners
are life with needs and wishes; mathematics as logic
of building and maintaining, based on the formula a = a ;
and art as human measure in a technical world, based on
Goethe's world formula and ever turning key: all is equal,
all unequal ...

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
If language is a car, communication is the traffic.

If communication is traffic, then language is one of the vehicles
contributing to it.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Franz Gnaedinger

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Please provide a reference where Levi-Strauss said that.

Exchange, language is exchange. His basic example
are marriage customs in the tropes, as I recall.

Please provide a reference where Levi-Strauss said that.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
A summary is in the linguistic novel about
a man in a chair in the air above Pluvov, or so.
We had this before. You found the name of the author
and the titel of the novel, a very funny one

No, I did no such thing.

Levi-Strauss did not write any novels.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
(it's a pity that I gave it away, but I can't keep
all the books I ever owned).
language mediates exchange (language on the basic
level being the means of getting help, support
and understanding).

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Post by Peter T. Daniels
No, I did no such thing.
Levi-Strauss did not write any novels.

Not a novel by Lévy-Strauss, a novel by a British linguist.
We had the same discussion a couple of years ago (we always
have the same circular discussion, didn't you notice?).
I said the same about Claude Lévy-Strauss, kinship and
exchange of gifts as model of language, you asked me
for a reference, I told you about a book by Lévy-Strauss
I read in the later 1960s, and a linguistic novel I read
some years ago, by a British linguist who goes on a travel
to a country that is a thinly veiled Bulgaria, a recurring
sentence amused me the most, a man sitting in a chair
in the air above Pluvov (as I recall). I couldn't remember
the name of the author, a linguist who wrote several
successful novels, linguistic novels that explained
structuralistic linguistics in an amusing manner,
but you found the name of that author. A couple of years
ago. Yes, you did. I then tried to find a copy of the book
I gave away in the university library, but they don't have it.
Otherwise I would have copied the paragraphs on exchange
and language for further use in sci.lang, for the case
the same topic surfaces again, as it happens now.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Franz Gnaedinger

Post by Peter T. Daniels
No, I did no such thing.
Levi-Strauss did not write any novels.

Not a novel by Lévy-Strauss, a novel by a British linguist.
We had the same discussion a couple of years ago (we always
have the same circular discussion, didn't you notice?).

No, I do not remember what you write, and it turns out you
don't, either.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
I said the same about Claude Lévy-Strauss, kinship and
exchange of gifts as model of language, you asked me
for a reference, I told you about a book by Lévy-Strauss
I read in the later 1960s, and a linguistic novel I read
some years ago, by a British linguist who goes on a travel
to a country that is a thinly veiled Bulgaria, a recurring
sentence amused me the most, a man sitting in a chair
in the air above Pluvov (as I recall). I couldn't remember
the name of the author, a linguist who wrote several
successful novels, linguistic novels that explained
structuralistic linguistics in an amusing manner,
but you found the name of that author. A couple of years
ago. Yes, you did. I then tried to find a copy of the book
I gave away in the university library, but they don't have it.
Otherwise I would have copied the paragraphs on exchange
and language for further use in sci.lang, for the case
the same topic surfaces again, as it happens now.

Plovdiv, Bulgaria???

I know of two linguistically oriented novels by David Carkeet.
They have nothing to do with Bulgaria. They are not British,
and they do not explain structuralist linguistics, whether
amusingly or not.

And one by Raymond Sokolov, who was a restaurant critic for
the New York Times, and the plot turned on someone confusing
"un choix" 'a choice' with "anchoie" 'anchovy'.

No Bulgaria, no Levi-Strauss.

Since you continually misspell Levi-Strauss, maybe you are
thinking of Levy-Bruhl, a much earlier anthropological
theorist who might have said silly things like that.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Post by Peter T. Daniels
No, I do not remember what you write, and it turns out you
Plovdiv, Bulgaria???
I know of two linguistically oriented novels by David Carkeet.
They have nothing to do with Bulgaria. They are not British,
and they do not explain structuralist linguistics, whether
amusingly or not.
And one by Raymond Sokolov, who was a restaurant critic for
the New York Times, and the plot turned on someone confusing
"un choix" 'a choice' with "anchoie" 'anchovy'.
No Bulgaria, no Levi-Strauss.
Since you continually misspell Levi-Strauss, maybe you are
thinking of Levy-Bruhl, a much earlier anthropological
theorist who might have said silly things like that.

David Carkeet is an American novelist, and Sokolov
it can't be. A couple of years ago, when we had
the very same discussion (language as exchange,
novel by a British linguist summarizing structuralism)
you found the name of the author. He wrote a trilogy.
I had the first volume, a handy pocket book, very funny.
It begins with the rather drab existence of an universitary
linguist and don, weaved in a theory of structuralism in
linguistics, then he is contacted by a secret service woman
and goes on a flight to a foreign country that is not
Bulgaria but a thinly veiled Bulgaria, with place names
like Pluvov that have a Bulgarian ring to them. The novel
is from the 1980s, when the cold war still was on.
We have circluar discussions, you and me, every couple
of years you ask me the same questions, and I give the
same answers, then you forget about them, and a couple
years later you ask me the same again. That novel and
exchange as model of language is one of them. Last time
(a couple of years ago) you found the name of that linguist
and novelist. Try again. His books have been very popular.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

Post by Franz Gnaedinger

Post by Peter T. Daniels
No, I do not remember what you write, and it turns out you
Plovdiv, Bulgaria???
I know of two linguistically oriented novels by David Carkeet.
They have nothing to do with Bulgaria. They are not British,
and they do not explain structuralist linguistics, whether
amusingly or not.
And one by Raymond Sokolov, who was a restaurant critic for
the New York Times, and the plot turned on someone confusing
"un choix" 'a choice' with "anchoie" 'anchovy'.
No Bulgaria, no Levi-Strauss.
Since you continually misspell Levi-Strauss, maybe you are
thinking of Levy-Bruhl, a much earlier anthropological
theorist who might have said silly things like that.

David Carkeet is an American novelist, and Sokolov
it can't be. A couple of years ago, when we had
the very same discussion (language as exchange,
novel by a British linguist summarizing structuralism)
you found the name of the author. He wrote a trilogy.
I had the first volume, a handy pocket book, very funny.
It begins with the rather drab existence of an universitary

"an" (sic) "universitary"???

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
linguist and don, weaved in a theory of structuralism in
linguistics, then he is contacted by a secret service woman
and goes on a flight to a foreign country that is not
Bulgaria but a thinly veiled Bulgaria, with place names
like Pluvov that have a Bulgarian ring to them. The novel
is from the 1980s, when the cold war still was on.
We have circluar discussions, you and me, every couple
of years you ask me the same questions, and I give the
same answers, then you forget about them, and a couple
years later you ask me the same again. That novel and
exchange as model of language is one of them. Last time
(a couple of years ago) you found the name of that linguist
and novelist. Try again. His books have been very popular.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
David Carkeet is an American novelist, and Sokolov
it can't be. A couple of years ago, when we had
the very same discussion (language as exchange,
novel by a British linguist summarizing structuralism)
you found the name of the author. He wrote a trilogy.
I had the first volume, a handy pocket book, very funny.
It begins with the rather drab existence of an universitary
linguist and don, weaved in a theory of structuralism in
linguistics,

My god, are you talking about David Lodge? David Lodge is not
a linguist, he is a novelist. His main character in the trilogy
is not a linguist, but an English-professor with nothing but scorn
for linguistic methods and for deconstructionism.

I don't recall that any of the three books is set anywhere but
the British and the American universities he happens to be at.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Post by Peter T. Daniels
My god, are you talking about David Lodge? David Lodge is not
a linguist, he is a novelist. His main character in the trilogy
is not a linguist, but an English-professor with nothing but scorn
for linguistic methods and for deconstructionism.
I don't recall that any of the three books is set anywhere but
the British and the American universities he happens to be at.

My God, or at least my Peter: yes, David Lodge it is.
I found his novel (the first in the trilogy) very funny,
and it contains a lucid summary of the structuralistic
understanding of language as exchange which I modify to
language as mediating exchange - preparing, accompanying
and concluding exchanges of all sorts and on all levels.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

Post by Franz Gnaedinger

Post by Franz Gnaedinger

Post by Sébastien de Mapias
Does someone know the etymology of this verb ?

entreat, judgment, make prayer make supplication
A primitive root; to judge (officially or mentally);
by extension, to intercede, pray -- intreat, judge(-ment),
(make) pray(-er, -ing), make supplication.
You came here before, so you know about my Magdalenian
adventure. The Hebrew verb palal is pronounced paw-lal'
which inspires my reading
PAS ) )
PAD means activity of feet, and the comparative form
PAS means everywhere (in a plain), here, south and north
of me, east and west of me, in all five places, Greek
pas pan 'all, every' pente penta- 'five'. Inverse SAP
means everywhere (in space), here, south and north of me,
east and west of me, under and above me, in all seven places
wherefrom words for seven in many languages including Hebrew
sheb, also Greek sophia 'wisdom' and Latin sapientia
'worldly wisdom' acquired by exploring the world and knowing it
in all the seven places. ) denotes a smacking L - curve your
tongue, let the tip of your tongue slide along the palate,
and let your tongue smack into its wet bed - with a little
exercising, for example on a pleasure walk in a wood,
you can produce an audible smack. ) accounts for Hebrew El
'He who has the say' and Arabic Al, in the longer form of
)OG for (Al)lah and Greek logos 'word, reason, etc.'
Together we have
PAS ) )
everywhere PAS to have the say ) to have the say )
free translation: to have the say in all matters,
praying, judging, intervening, regulating the human
affairs and communicating with the divine above

Linkedin informed me that Yusuf Gürsey finished his
online course on linguistics. I din't open the mail,

Try it yourself.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
just got it from the title. Told Linkedin many times
I don't want to know about every breath Yusuf Gürsey

unsubscribe from your account, or un-link me. I doubt if they open
direct email.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
takes and every move he makes. Doesn't help.
I am getting informed. So now he has absolved his
online course and is a linguist and can drop verdicts
and tell me to buzz off. No argument needed.