I've gone and forgotten them. (modality)

[HenHanna]

I've gone and forgotten them.

is this usage (gone and) more common in Australia? (than USA?)

(modality) Does it carry a sense of [Too bad this happened] ?


i guess so.. as in

[Don't take that outside, or you'll go and spill it all !]


i'm interested in the comparison with
(Futurity in) I'm going to ....... (grammaticization)

...............
Huh, I’d forgotten there were English words to « Frère Jacques ».

There are also Dutch words (Slaap je nog, broeder Jan), but I've gone
and forgotten them.

--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

[HenHanna]

Post by HenHanna

I've gone and forgotten them.

is this usage (gone and) more common in Australia? (than USA?)
(modality) Does it carry a sense of [Too bad this happened] ?
i guess so.. as in
[Don't take that outside, or you'll go and spill it all !]
i'm interested in the comparison with
(Futurity in) I'm going to ....... (grammaticization)

...............
Huh, I’d forgotten there were English words to « Frère Jacques ».

There are also Dutch words (Slaap je nog, broeder Jan), but I've gone
and forgotten them.

--
Newcastle, NSW

[go and] is a Modality-Marker


"If you keep playing with that fire, you'll go and burn yourself!"


"Si tu continues à manger autant de bonbons, tu vas aller et tomber
malade !"


"Wenn du so laut redest, wirst du noch gehen und die Nachbarn stören!"


"If you keep procrastinating, you will end up stressed before the
deadline."

[Hibou]

Post by HenHanna
"Si tu continues à manger autant de bonbons, tu vas aller et tomber
malade !" [...]

Is that a machine translation? C'en a l'air.

Post by HenHanna
"If you keep procrastinating, you will end up stressed before the
deadline."

IMHO, procrastinating is bad, amateur crastinating fairly acceptable.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Hibou

Post by HenHanna
"Si tu continues à manger autant de bonbons, tu vas aller et
tomber malade !" [...]

Is that a machine translation? C'en a l'air.

"Go and do X" is a distinctively English construct. For the moment I
can't think of another language that does that [1]. French has "aller
tomber", but not "aller et tomber". (And putting it after "tu vas"
aggravates the crime.)

[1] A dangerous assertion to make in AUE, of course. It will probably
elicit many examples.

[Hibou]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Hibou

Post by HenHanna
"Si tu continues à manger autant de bonbons, tu vas aller et
tomber malade !" [...]

Is that a machine translation? C'en a l'air.

"Go and do X" is a distinctively English construct. For the moment I
can't think of another language that does that [1]. French has "aller
tomber", but not "aller et tomber". (And putting it after "tu vas"
aggravates the crime.)

It would be even worse in the plural: vous allez aller et tomber
malade(s). (Mind you, the French do say « Allez, va ! » - a different
idea, of course, but I still marvel at it.)

Post by Peter Moylan
[1] A dangerous assertion to make in AUE, of course. It will probably
elicit many examples.

I wonder if there's a distinction between a prediction, as above, and an
imperative. "Go and do X!" would seem to be a universally valid
instruction, which should be expressible in all languages.

« Et Jésus lui dit: Va, et toi, fais de même » - Luc 10.37 (Louis Segond).

[wugi]

Post by Hibou

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Hibou

Post by HenHanna
"Si tu continues à manger autant de bonbons, tu vas aller et
tomber malade !" [...]

Is that a machine translation? C'en a l'air.

"Go and do X" is a distinctively English construct. For the moment I
can't think of another language that does that [1]. French has "aller
tomber", but not "aller et tomber". (And putting it after "tu vas"
aggravates the crime.)

It would be even worse in the plural: vous allez aller et tomber
malade(s). (Mind you, the French do say « Allez, va ! » - a different
idea, of course, but I still marvel at it.)

Post by Peter Moylan
[1] A dangerous assertion to make in AUE, of course. It will probably
elicit many examples.

I wonder if there's a distinction between a prediction, as above, and an
imperative. "Go and do X!" would seem to be a universally valid
instruction, which should be expressible in all languages.
« Et Jésus lui dit: Va, et toi, fais de même » - Luc 10.37 (Louis Segond).

Also biblical:
Go and fornic, er, multipl, eh, I don't know the English version.
Gaat en vermenigvuldigt u: go and multiply yourselves.
A disastrous assignment in these times of overpopulation.

[jerryfriedman]

..

Post by wugi

Post by Hibou
"Go and do X!" would seem to be a universally valid
instruction, which should be expressible in all languages.
« Et Jésus lui dit: Va, et toi, fais de même » - Luc 10.37 (Louis Segond).

Go and fornic, er, multipl, eh, I don't know the English version.
Gaat en vermenigvuldigt u: go and multiply yourselves.

The best-known English is "Be fruitful and multiply".
There's no "go" in the Hebrew.

https://biblehub.com/text/genesis/1-28.htm

Post by wugi
A disastrous assignment in these times of overpopulation.

True.

--
Jerry Friedman

--

[Rich Ulrich]

Post by jerryfriedman
..

Post by wugi

Post by Hibou
"Go and do X!" would seem to be a universally valid
instruction, which should be expressible in all languages.
« Et Jésus lui dit: Va, et toi, fais de même » - Luc 10.37 (Louis Segond).

Go and fornic, er, multipl, eh, I don't know the English version.
Gaat en vermenigvuldigt u: go and multiply yourselves.

The best-known English is "Be fruitful and multiply".
There's no "go" in the Hebrew.

"Go forth and multiple" sounded plenty familiar to me.

Mr Google recognizes it and brings up hits on the
original, "be fruitful" -- and one comment that there
is NO verse that says "go forth."

I guess it is the stickier version of a famous saying.
A bunch of those exist. Like, "Play it again, Sam" is
not in the movie.

Post by jerryfriedman
https://biblehub.com/text/genesis/1-28.htm

Post by wugi
A disastrous assignment in these times of overpopulation.

True.

[HenHanna]

Post by HenHanna
"Si tu continues à manger autant de bonbons, tu vas aller et tomber
malade !" [...]

Is that a machine translation? C'en a l'air.

not MT; 2 AI's think that this [go-and-VERB] exists in FR and DE

______________________

are these both completely grammatical and idiomatic? -->

"Si tu continues à manger autant de bonbons, tu vas aller et tomber
malade !"

"Wenn du so laut redest, wirst du noch gehen und die Nachbarn stören!"

_______________________________________

Both sentences are grammatically correct and idiomatic. They are natural
and everyday expressions that you would use in these situations.

Here's a breakdown:

"Si tu continues à manger autant de bonbons, tu vas aller et tomber
malade !"

Grammatically: The sentence is correctly structured and follows
French grammar rules.

Idiomatically: The phrase "aller et tomber malade" is an idiomatic
way to express that someone will get sick if they continue like this.

It's a bit more intense than simply saying "tu vas tomber malade."

_____________________

"Wenn du so laut redest, wirst du noch gehen und die Nachbarn stören!"

Grammatically: This sentence is also grammatically correct and
follows German grammar rules.

Idiomatically: The phrase "gehen und stören" is an idiomatic way to
express that someone will do something they shouldn't and it will lead
to negative consequences. It emphasizes the intention or likelihood of
the action.



To summarize, both sentences are both grammatically
correct and idiomatic, conveying the intended meaning naturally.

[Hibou]

Post by HenHanna
"Si tu continues à manger autant de bonbons, tu vas aller et tomber
malade !" [...]

Is that a machine translation?     C'en a l'air.

not MT;    2 AI's think that this  [go-and-VERB]  exists in FR and DE

An AI isn't a machine?

are these both completely grammatical and idiomatic? -->
"Si tu continues à manger autant de bonbons, tu vas aller et tomber
malade !"
"Wenn du so laut redest, wirst du noch gehen und die Nachbarn stören!"
Both sentences are grammatically correct and idiomatic. They are natural
and everyday expressions that you would use in these situations.

I'm going to skip the German, and approach the French with caution, not
being a native speaker.

"Tu vas aller et tomber malade" looks like a word-for-word translation
from informal English (you're going to go and...); it is not idiomatic
French. Google Web Search finds no examples of it, or of variants of it
with different pronouns and appropriate conjugation.

But "aller et tomber malade", without a conjugated form of aller
preceding it, can be idiomatic French. Examples from the Web:

Tu finiras par te laisser aller et tomber malade.
You'll end up letting yourself go and falling ill.

Ou y aller [à un Restau du cœur] et tomber malade?
Or go there [to a soup kitchen] and fall ill?

"Si tu continues à manger autant de bonbons, tu vas aller et tomber
malade !"
Grammatically:      The sentence is correctly structured and follows
French grammar rules.
Idiomatically:      The phrase "aller et tomber malade" is an idiomatic
way to express that someone will get sick if they continue like this.
It's a bit more intense than simply saying "tu vas tomber malade." [...]

C'est du n'importe quoi [nonsense] ! Your AIs are confused - not
surprising, since they are just chewing on language, and have no actual
understanding.

               To summarize, both sentences are both grammatically
correct and idiomatic, conveying the intended meaning naturally.

Justement non.

[Hibou]

Post by HenHanna
"Si tu continues à manger autant de bonbons, tu vas aller et tomber
malade !" [...]

Is that a machine translation?     C'en a l'air.

not MT;    2 AI's think that this  [go-and-VERB]  exists in FR and DE

An AI isn't a machine? [...]

Enfin, enfin...

Si tu continues à manger autant de bonbons, tu vas tomber malade !

Simples!

[Silvano]

Post by Hibou

Post by HenHanna

Post by HenHanna
"Si tu continues à manger autant de bonbons, tu vas aller et tomber
malade !" [...]

Is that a machine translation? C'en a l'air.

not MT; 2 AI's think that this [go-and-VERB] exists in FR and DE

An AI isn't a machine?

Post by HenHanna
are these both completely grammatical and idiomatic? -->
"Si tu continues à manger autant de bonbons, tu vas aller et tomber
malade !"
"Wenn du so laut redest, wirst du noch gehen und die Nachbarn stören!"
Both sentences are grammatically correct and idiomatic. They are natural
and everyday expressions that you would use in these situations.

I'm going to skip the German,

I'm going to skip the French, but HenHanna's "idiomatic" is their usual
BS. If you want a meaningful (not necessarily idiomatic) German
sentence, delete "gehen und".

I won't send this to alt.language.latin for obvious reasons.

[Christian Weisgerber]

Post by Hibou

Post by HenHanna
"Si tu continues à manger autant de bonbons, tu vas aller et tomber
malade !"
"Wenn du so laut redest, wirst du noch gehen und die Nachbarn stören!"

I'm going to skip the German, and approach the French with caution, not
being a native speaker.

The German feels weird, but seems to mean "... you'll go <someplace>
and disturb the neighbors". It implies a physical displacement.
Your French is a lot better than mine, but I'd interpret the French
the same way. In both cases the implied movement is unconnected to
the rest of sentence, making the semantics feel weird.

In English, "go and <verb>" is an idiomatic expression that emphasizes
<verb>. German and French don't use this idiom.

[Phil]

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Hibou

Post by HenHanna
"Si tu continues à manger autant de bonbons, tu vas aller et tomber
malade !"
"Wenn du so laut redest, wirst du noch gehen und die Nachbarn stören!"

I'm going to skip the German, and approach the French with caution, not
being a native speaker.

The German feels weird, but seems to mean "... you'll go <someplace>
and disturb the neighbors". It implies a physical displacement.
Your French is a lot better than mine, but I'd interpret the French
the same way. In both cases the implied movement is unconnected to
the rest of sentence, making the semantics feel weird.
In English, "go and <verb>" is an idiomatic expression that emphasizes
<verb>. German and French don't use this idiom.

Some BrE speakers would take it further

"He's been and gone and done it".

Or even (cross-thread) "He's _only_ been and gone and done it".

[Stefan Ram]

Post by Phil
"He's been and gone and done it".

Lemme break it down for the homies who're into German:

1.

"I'm going to go and buy some groceries."

Here, the "go and" part means you got to bounce to another spot
to grab your groceries.

"Ich geh mal eben einkaufen."

2.

"He went and told the boss everything!"

Emphasis: He /really/ did this!

It's like, this dude totally /went/ out of his way to spill the
tea to the boss, you feel me? Kinda shady, if you ask me.

"Der ist doch /tatsächlich/ hingegangen und hat dem Chef alles
erzählt!"

3.

"I can't believe she went and quit her job without having another
one lined up!"

Here, it's used as someone did something hella crazy or stupid,
and you're like, "Dude, seriously?"

"Ich fass es nicht, daß sie /einfach so/ ihren Job gekündigt
hat, ohne was Neues in Aussicht zu haben!"

4.

"Don't just go and spend all your money on the first day of your
trip!"

Here, it's more like they just /went/ for it, you know? Totally
spur of the moment, not like that other example "2.".

"Verpulver bloß nicht gleich am ersten Tag deiner Reise dein ganzes
Geld!"

5.

"So then I went and asked her out on a date."

Here, it's basically just a way to keep the story flowing, like,
"And then this happened, and then that happened." You know how it goes.

"Na ja, und dann hab ich sie kurzerhand nach 'nem Date gefragt."

6.

"I've gone and forgotten them."

It's like you're saying, "Can you believe I actually did
that?" It kind of shows you’re surprised or maybe a bit annoyed
at yourself. It makes it sound like forgetting was a bigger
deal—like, "Ugh, I really dropped the ball on this one!"

Using "gone and" gives it some personality. It’s like you’re
venting a little, maybe rolling your eyes at your own
forgetfulness. You might say it with a sigh or a laugh, like
you're shaking your head at yourself.

"Ich Depp hab die echt vergessen."

"Mensch, die hab ich doch glatt vergessen."

[Janet]

Post by Phil

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Hibou

Post by HenHanna
"Si tu continues à manger autant de bonbons, tu vas aller et tomber
malade !"
"Wenn du so laut redest, wirst du noch gehen und die Nachbarn stören!"

I'm going to skip the German, and approach the French with caution, not
being a native speaker.

The German feels weird, but seems to mean "... you'll go <someplace>
and disturb the neighbors". It implies a physical displacement.
Your French is a lot better than mine, but I'd interpret the French
the same way. In both cases the implied movement is unconnected to
the rest of sentence, making the semantics feel weird.
In English, "go and <verb>" is an idiomatic expression that emphasizes
<verb>. German and French don't use this idiom.

Some BrE speakers would take it further
"He's been and gone and done it".
Or even (cross-thread) "He's _only_ been and gone and done it".

"Gonnae nae dae that".

Glaswegian to English translation:

"I strongly advise you to desist."

Janet.

[Sergio Gatti]

Post by Phil
Some BrE speakers would take it further

Post by Phil
"He's been and gone and done it".
Or even (cross-thread) "He's _only_ been and gone and done it".

"Gonnae nae dae that".
"I strongly advise you to desist."

A word for word translation is usually not desirable, but is it
possible? I'm asking because I'd like to understand the way the
Glaswegian sentence is formed.

[Snidely]

Post by Sergio Gatti

Post by Phil
Some BrE speakers would take it further

Post by Phil
"He's been and gone and done it".
Or even (cross-thread) "He's _only_ been and gone and done it".

"Gonnae nae dae that".
"I strongly advise you to desist."

A word for word translation is usually not desirable, but is it
possible? I'm asking because I'd like to understand the way the
Glaswegian sentence is formed.

I think a "You are" (or "You're") has been elided from the front of the
sentence. "You are going to not do that".

Such elisions are common in speech.

/dps

[Janet]

Post by Sergio Gatti

Post by Phil
Some BrE speakers would take it further

Post by Phil
"He's been and gone and done it".
Or even (cross-thread) "He's _only_ been and gone and done it".

"Gonnae nae dae that".
"I strongly advise you to desist."

A word for word translation is usually not desirable, but is it
possible? I'm asking because I'd like to understand the way the
Glaswegian sentence is formed.

(you are) going (to) not do that".

where the small-case words are unspoken

Janet

[Bebercito]

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Hibou

Post by HenHanna
"Si tu continues à manger autant de bonbons, tu vas aller et tomber
malade !"
"Wenn du so laut redest, wirst du noch gehen und die Nachbarn stören!"

I'm going to skip the German, and approach the French with caution, not
being a native speaker.

The German feels weird, but seems to mean "... you'll go <someplace>
and disturb the neighbors". It implies a physical displacement.
Your French is a lot better than mine, but I'd interpret the French
the same way. In both cases the implied movement is unconnected to
the rest of sentence, making the semantics feel weird.
In English, "go and <verb>" is an idiomatic expression that emphasizes
<verb>. German and French don't use this idiom.

Fench does use "aller" (not preceded by "et" though) in that sense.
For instance, one can say "Pourquoi irait-il faire ça ?" instead of
"Pourquoi ferait-il ça ?" where "irait" doesn't denote movement or
temporality but just emphasizes the unlikeliness of "him" doing "that".