Discussion:
John Rhys-Davies - "rice" or "reece"?
(too old to reply)
Geoff
2004-01-11 00:46:14 UTC
Permalink
Curious about usual Welsh/UK pronunciations. I say it
"rice," but not sure why.
mUs1Ka
2004-01-11 00:50:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Geoff
Curious about usual Welsh/UK pronunciations. I say it
"rice," but not sure why.
Rhees.

m.
Geoff
2004-01-11 03:20:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by mUs1Ka
Post by Geoff
Curious about usual Welsh/UK pronunciations. I say it
"rice," but not sure why.
Rhees.
m.
Is that something different from "rice" or "Reece"? Maybe
try it in IPA so I understand what your answer was. TIA
Brian M. Scott
2004-01-11 08:31:21 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 03:20:23 GMT Geoff <***@hotmail.com>
wrote in
Post by Geoff
Post by mUs1Ka
Post by Geoff
Curious about usual Welsh/UK pronunciations. I say it
"rice," but not sure why.
Rhees.
Is that something different from "rice" or "Reece"?
Yes, if you mean the Welsh pronunciation; the English
pronunciation is that of <Reece>.

In Welsh the initial consonant is aspirated; Hamp describes
it as a sequence [rr.], where [r.] is voiceless [r]. I
believe that the vowel is either [i:] or [i-:] (barred-i)
depending on dialect, though I could be wrong about the
length.

[...]

Brian
John Atkinson
2004-01-15 04:16:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian M. Scott
Post by Geoff
Post by mUs1Ka
Post by Geoff
Curious about usual Welsh/UK pronunciations. I say it
"rice," but not sure why.
Rhees.
Is that something different from "rice" or "Reece"?
Yes, if you mean the Welsh pronunciation; the English
pronunciation is that of <Reece>.
In Welsh the initial consonant is aspirated; Hamp describes
it as a sequence [rr.], where [r.] is voiceless [r]. I
believe that the vowel is either [i:] or [i-:] (barred-i)
depending on dialect, though I could be wrong about the
length.
"He would say that, wouldn't he?"

So, how did the immortal Mandy ("My life has been one long descent into
respectability") pronounce her surname?

John.
Harlan Messinger
2004-01-15 11:32:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Atkinson
So, how did the immortal Mandy ("My life has been one long descent into
respectability") pronounce her surname?
I don't know for sure, but her last name was Rice-Davies, not
Rhys-Davies.
--
Harlan Messinger
Remove the first dot from my e-mail address.
Veuillez ôter le premier point de mon adresse de courriel.
John Atkinson
2004-01-16 02:24:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harlan Messinger
Post by John Atkinson
So, how did the immortal Mandy ("My life has been one long descent into
respectability") pronounce her surname?
I don't know for sure, but her last name was Rice-Davies, not
Rhys-Davies.
Indeed. My point entirely. If (as seems plausible) "Rice-Davies" is an
alternative spelling of "Rhys-Davies", I was wondering (etc etc).

For that matter, Brian, are Rees and Reece also cognate with Rhys?

John.
Brian M. Scott
2004-01-16 05:01:40 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 02:24:30 GMT "John Atkinson"
Post by John Atkinson
Post by Harlan Messinger
Post by John Atkinson
So, how did the immortal Mandy ("My life has been one long descent into
respectability") pronounce her surname?
I don't know for sure, but her last name was Rice-Davies, not
Rhys-Davies.
Indeed. My point entirely. If (as seems plausible) "Rice-Davies" is an
alternative spelling of "Rhys-Davies", I was wondering (etc etc).
For that matter, Brian, are Rees and Reece also cognate with Rhys?
They're Anglicized forms of it. Spellings in 16th c.
chancery proceedings include <Rice> (common), <Ryse>, <Rys>,
<Rees>, <Res>, <Rese>, <Rece>, and quite possibly a couple
more that don't come to mind. And of course <Price> is from
<ap Rhys>.

Brian
Geoff
2004-01-16 06:40:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian M. Scott
On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 02:24:30 GMT "John Atkinson"
Post by John Atkinson
Post by Harlan Messinger
Post by John Atkinson
So, how did the immortal Mandy ("My life has been one long descent into
respectability") pronounce her surname?
I don't know for sure, but her last name was Rice-Davies, not
Rhys-Davies.
Indeed. My point entirely. If (as seems plausible) "Rice-Davies" is an
alternative spelling of "Rhys-Davies", I was wondering (etc etc).
For that matter, Brian, are Rees and Reece also cognate with Rhys?
They're Anglicized forms of it. Spellings in 16th c.
chancery proceedings include <Rice> (common), <Ryse>, <Rys>,
<Rees>, <Res>, <Rese>, <Rece>, and quite possibly a couple
more that don't come to mind. And of course <Price> is from
<ap Rhys>.
Brian
So, even though Mandy called herself "Rice"-Davies, the
consensus of the experts is that the appropriate
pronunciation is "reece" rhymes with "piece"?
Brian M. Scott
2004-01-16 20:54:13 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 06:40:47 GMT Geoff <***@hotmail.com>
wrote in
Post by Geoff
Post by Brian M. Scott
On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 02:24:30 GMT "John Atkinson"
Post by John Atkinson
Post by Harlan Messinger
Post by John Atkinson
So, how did the immortal Mandy ("My life has been one long descent into
respectability") pronounce her surname?
I don't know for sure, but her last name was Rice-Davies, not
Rhys-Davies.
Indeed. My point entirely. If (as seems plausible) "Rice-Davies" is an
alternative spelling of "Rhys-Davies", I was wondering (etc etc).
For that matter, Brian, are Rees and Reece also cognate with Rhys?
They're Anglicized forms of it. Spellings in 16th c.
chancery proceedings include <Rice> (common), <Ryse>, <Rys>,
<Rees>, <Res>, <Rese>, <Rece>, and quite possibly a couple
more that don't come to mind. And of course <Price> is from
<ap Rhys>.
So, even though Mandy called herself "Rice"-Davies, the
consensus of the experts is that the appropriate
pronunciation is "reece" rhymes with "piece"?
No. I assume that the surname <Rice> is pronounced like the
name of the grain.

Brian
Geoff
2004-01-17 03:14:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian M. Scott
wrote in
Post by Geoff
Post by Brian M. Scott
On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 02:24:30 GMT "John Atkinson"
Post by John Atkinson
Post by Harlan Messinger
Post by John Atkinson
So, how did the immortal Mandy ("My life has been one long descent into
respectability") pronounce her surname?
I don't know for sure, but her last name was Rice-Davies, not
Rhys-Davies.
Indeed. My point entirely. If (as seems plausible) "Rice-Davies" is an
alternative spelling of "Rhys-Davies", I was wondering (etc etc).
For that matter, Brian, are Rees and Reece also cognate with Rhys?
They're Anglicized forms of it. Spellings in 16th c.
chancery proceedings include <Rice> (common), <Ryse>, <Rys>,
<Rees>, <Res>, <Rese>, <Rece>, and quite possibly a couple
more that don't come to mind. And of course <Price> is from
<ap Rhys>.
So, even though Mandy called herself "Rice"-Davies, the
consensus of the experts is that the appropriate
pronunciation is "reece" rhymes with "piece"?
No. I assume that the surname <Rice> is pronounced like the
name of the grain.
Brian
Sorry, I should have written 'So, even though Mandy called
herself "Rice"-Davies, the consensus of the experts is that
the appropriate pronunciation of the Rhys in Rhys-Davies is
"reece" rhymes with "piece"?'
Brian M. Scott
2004-01-17 04:18:16 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 03:14:00 GMT Geoff <***@hotmail.com>
wrote in
<news:YL1Ob.13938$***@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.ne
t> in sci.lang:

[...]
Post by Geoff
Sorry, I should have written 'So, even though Mandy called
herself "Rice"-Davies,
Why 'called herself'? So far as I know, it was her name.
Welsh <Rhys> gave rise to several English surnames, that's
all.
Post by Geoff
the consensus of the experts is that
the appropriate pronunciation of the Rhys in Rhys-Davies is
"reece" rhymes with "piece"?'
I'd expect the first element of the English surname
<Rhys-Davies> to be pronounced to rhyme with <piece>, yes.

Brian
Geoff
2004-01-17 05:12:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian M. Scott
wrote in
[...]
Post by Geoff
Sorry, I should have written 'So, even though Mandy called
herself "Rice"-Davies,
Why 'called herself'? So far as I know, it was her name.
Welsh <Rhys> gave rise to several English surnames, that's
all.
Post by Geoff
the consensus of the experts is that
the appropriate pronunciation of the Rhys in Rhys-Davies is
"reece" rhymes with "piece"?'
I'd expect the first element of the English surname
<Rhys-Davies> to be pronounced to rhyme with <piece>, yes.
Brian
Sorry, I just can't seem to get it right. Lets try it again.
Rice-Davies looks to me like the same name as Rhys-Davies
with just a variation in spelling (maybe like Smythe and
Smith?). So, I assumed - incorrectly it appears - that the
spelling of her name was some kind of Anglicization of the
Welsh, and the spelling "rice" was a clue that Rhys in Welsh
sounded like "rice." But the replies here seem to have
overwhelmingly told me that the Welsh Rhys rhymes with
"peace." So why not Mandy Reese-Davies? Whence "rice"?
Brian M. Scott
2004-01-17 05:40:27 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 05:12:09 GMT Geoff <***@hotmail.com>
wrote in
<news:Ju3Ob.12688$***@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>
in sci.lang:

[...]
Post by Geoff
Sorry, I just can't seem to get it right. Lets try it again.
Rice-Davies looks to me like the same name as Rhys-Davies
with just a variation in spelling (maybe like Smythe and
Smith?).
Historically it is, more or less, except that <Rice> can
only be an Englishing, while <Rhys> is a Welsh spelling that
is also used in English.
Post by Geoff
So, I assumed - incorrectly it appears - that the
spelling of her name was some kind of Anglicization of the
Welsh,
The English surname <Rice> is historically an Anglicized
spelling of <Rhys>, but it's been an English surname for a
long time now.
Post by Geoff
and the spelling "rice" was a clue that Rhys in Welsh
sounded like "rice."
You're forgetting the Great Vowel Shift: once upon a time
English <Rice> *was* pronounced [ri:s].
Post by Geoff
But the replies here seem to have
overwhelmingly told me that the Welsh Rhys rhymes with
"peace." So why not Mandy Reese-Davies? Whence "rice"?
From an older Englishing of <Rhys>.

Brian
Philip Anderson
2004-01-18 15:15:41 UTC
Permalink
Brian M. Scott wrote in message
<17drys61wydpp$.ll6y3hmvwwgp$***@40tude.net>...
<snipped>
Post by Brian M. Scott
The English surname <Rice> is historically an Anglicized
spelling of <Rhys>, but it's been an English surname for a
long time now.
Post by Geoff
and the spelling "rice" was a clue that Rhys in Welsh
sounded like "rice."
You're forgetting the Great Vowel Shift: once upon a time
English <Rice> *was* pronounced [ri:s].
Exactly. Rhys remained a Welsh word and hence kept the Welsh
pronunciation (though English speakers ignore the aspiration which isn't
phonemic in English), but the Anglicised "Rice" and "Price", being
English, underwent the GVS. Without being able to confirm this, I
suspect that Rees, Reese (rare) and Reece are later (post-GVS)
anglicisations.

The spelling "rice" for "Rhys" actually tells us that "rice" used to
sound like [ri:s], and hence is a clue to the GVS.

--
hwyl/cheers
Philip Anderson
Cymru/Wales

Harlan Messinger
2004-01-11 04:04:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Geoff
Curious about usual Welsh/UK pronunciations. I say it
"rice," but not sure why.
It's like "Reese".
--
Harlan Messinger
Remove the first dot from my e-mail address.
Veuillez ôter le premier point de mon adresse de courriel.
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