Word of the day: “Papoose”

[Aidan Kehoe]

I came across this word for the first time today, in the second meaning from
Wikipedia, describing basically something to swaddle a toddler to keep it still
for a procedure in Emergency Medicine:

“Papoose (from the Narragansett papoos, meaning "child")[1] is an American
English word whose present meaning is "a Native American child" (regardless of
tribe) or, even more generally, any child, usually used as a term of
endearment, often in the context of the child's mother.[2] In 1643, Roger
Williams recorded the word in his A Key into the Language of America, helping
to popularize it.[3]
[...]
Cradle boards and other child carriers used by Native Americans are known by
various names. In Algonquin history, the term papoose is sometimes used to
refer to a child carrier.”

Given I am 43 and fairly well-read I can assert that it has basically no
currency outside the US. Does it have much currency within the US?

[LionelEdwards]

Post by Aidan Kehoe
I came across this word for the first time today, in the second meaning from
Wikipedia, describing basically something to swaddle a toddler to keep it still
“Papoose (from the Narragansett papoos, meaning "child")[1] is an American
English word whose present meaning is "a Native American child" (regardless of
tribe) or, even more generally, any child, usually used as a term of
endearment, often in the context of the child's mother.[2] In 1643, Roger
Williams recorded the word in his A Key into the Language of America, helping
to popularize it.[3]
[...]
Cradle boards and other child carriers used by Native Americans are known by
various names. In Algonquin history, the term papoose is sometimes used to
refer to a child carrier.”
Given I am 43 and fairly well-read I can assert that it has basically no
currency outside the US. Does it have much currency within the US?

Very familiar in GB from 1960s Westerns as a method by which Indians
could gallop on horseback carrying their infants safely. Not to be
confused with "a caboose".

[Aidan Kehoe]

[...] Very familiar in GB from 1960s Westerns as a method by which Indians
could gallop on horseback carrying their infants safely. Not to be confused
with "a caboose".

Pleasantly surprised at the number of non-North-Americans who know the word. I
suppose the Zane Grey books and the cowboy movies did educate on certain
things.

[Janet]

Post by Aidan Kehoe
I came across this word for the first time today, in the second meaning from
Wikipedia, describing basically something to swaddle a toddler to keep it still
?Papoose (from the Narragansett papoos, meaning "child")[1] is an American
English word whose present meaning is "a Native American child" (regardless of
tribe) or, even more generally, any child, usually used as a term of
endearment, often in the context of the child's mother.[2] In 1643, Roger
Williams recorded the word in his A Key into the Language of America, helping
to popularize it.[3]
[...]
Cradle boards and other child carriers used by Native Americans are known by
various names. In Algonquin history, the term papoose is sometimes used to
refer to a child carrier.?
Given I am 43 and fairly well-read I can assert that it has basically no
currency outside the US.

The native-American "papoose" back-board child carrier
was known to me in early childhood (and probably every
other kid enthralled by "Cowboys and Indians".

When we had children I rediscovered it all over again
thanks to Mothercare. We had a baby back carrier called a
papoose.

Janet.

[Steve Hayes]

Post by Janet

Post by Aidan Kehoe
Cradle boards and other child carriers used by Native Americans are known by
various names. In Algonquin history, the term papoose is sometimes used to
refer to a child carrier.?
Given I am 43 and fairly well-read I can assert that it has basically no
currency outside the US.

The native-American "papoose" back-board child carrier
was known to me in early childhood (and probably every
other kid enthralled by "Cowboys and Indians".
When we had children I rediscovered it all over again
thanks to Mothercare. We had a baby back carrier called a
papoose.

So it seems that people within the US understand "papoose" as
referring to a child, and outside the US it refers to a child holder?

[Ken Blake]

On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 18:36:10 +0200, Steve Hayes

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Janet

Post by Aidan Kehoe
Cradle boards and other child carriers used by Native Americans are known by
various names. In Algonquin history, the term papoose is sometimes used to
refer to a child carrier.?
Given I am 43 and fairly well-read I can assert that it has basically no
currency outside the US.

The native-American "papoose" back-board child carrier
was known to me in early childhood (and probably every
other kid enthralled by "Cowboys and Indians".
When we had children I rediscovered it all over again
thanks to Mothercare. We had a baby back carrier called a
papoose.

So it seems that people within the US understand "papoose" as
referring to a child, and outside the US it refers to a child holder?

Not exactly. I'm within the US, but not me. To me it's a back-board
child carrier with a child in it

[Jeff Barnett]

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Janet

Post by Aidan Kehoe
Cradle boards and other child carriers used by Native Americans are known by
various names. In Algonquin history, the term papoose is sometimes used to
refer to a child carrier.?
Given I am 43 and fairly well-read I can assert that it has basically no
currency outside the US.

The native-American "papoose" back-board child carrier
was known to me in early childhood (and probably every
other kid enthralled by "Cowboys and Indians".
When we had children I rediscovered it all over again
thanks to Mothercare. We had a baby back carrier called a
papoose.

So it seems that people within the US understand "papoose" as
referring to a child, and outside the US it refers to a child holder?

Born in the Midwestern portion of the USA a long time ago: My
understanding has been both since ("time wise", not "because") I can
remember.

[Tony Cooper]

On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 18:36:10 +0200, Steve Hayes

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Janet

Post by Aidan Kehoe
Cradle boards and other child carriers used by Native Americans are known by
various names. In Algonquin history, the term papoose is sometimes used to
refer to a child carrier.?
Given I am 43 and fairly well-read I can assert that it has basically no
currency outside the US.

The native-American "papoose" back-board child carrier
was known to me in early childhood (and probably every
other kid enthralled by "Cowboys and Indians".
When we had children I rediscovered it all over again
thanks to Mothercare. We had a baby back carrier called a
papoose.

So it seems that people within the US understand "papoose" as
referring to a child, and outside the US it refers to a child holder?

Please...write "some people".

If I see an (American) Indian with a baby in a carrier strapped to her
back, I would describe that as a woman with a papoose.

However, if she removes the baby from the carrier and puts the baby on
a blanket on the ground, I would not say the baby is a "papoose".

You seem to want "people" in the US to all view things the same.

[Rich Ulrich]

On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 15:39:20 -0400, Tony Cooper

Post by Ken Blake
On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 18:36:10 +0200, Steve Hayes

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Janet

Post by Aidan Kehoe
Cradle boards and other child carriers used by Native Americans are known by
various names. In Algonquin history, the term papoose is sometimes used to
refer to a child carrier.?
Given I am 43 and fairly well-read I can assert that it has basically no
currency outside the US.

The native-American "papoose" back-board child carrier
was known to me in early childhood (and probably every
other kid enthralled by "Cowboys and Indians".
When we had children I rediscovered it all over again
thanks to Mothercare. We had a baby back carrier called a
papoose.

So it seems that people within the US understand "papoose" as
referring to a child, and outside the US it refers to a child holder?

Please...write "some people".
If I see an (American) Indian with a baby in a carrier strapped to her
back, I would describe that as a woman with a papoose.
However, if she removes the baby from the carrier and puts the baby on
a blanket on the ground, I would not say the baby is a "papoose".

I thought that the baby would stay in the carrier when laid on
the ground. I thought they followed the baby-handling tradition
of keeping them bound up.

I had not ever been challenged with an Indian baby on the
loose, and someone looking for a word to describe them.

From the earlier discussion, I conclude that only the bound
baby is a papoose.

[Tony Cooper]

On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 23:04:55 -0400, Rich Ulrich

Post by Rich Ulrich
On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 15:39:20 -0400, Tony Cooper

Post by Ken Blake
On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 18:36:10 +0200, Steve Hayes

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Janet

Post by Aidan Kehoe
Cradle boards and other child carriers used by Native Americans are known by
various names. In Algonquin history, the term papoose is sometimes used to
refer to a child carrier.?
Given I am 43 and fairly well-read I can assert that it has basically no
currency outside the US.

The native-American "papoose" back-board child carrier
was known to me in early childhood (and probably every
other kid enthralled by "Cowboys and Indians".
When we had children I rediscovered it all over again
thanks to Mothercare. We had a baby back carrier called a
papoose.

So it seems that people within the US understand "papoose" as
referring to a child, and outside the US it refers to a child holder?

Please...write "some people".
If I see an (American) Indian with a baby in a carrier strapped to her
back, I would describe that as a woman with a papoose.
However, if she removes the baby from the carrier and puts the baby on
a blanket on the ground, I would not say the baby is a "papoose".

I thought that the baby would stay in the carrier when laid on
the ground. I thought they followed the baby-handling tradition
of keeping them bound up.
I had not ever been challenged with an Indian baby on the
loose, and someone looking for a word to describe them.
From the earlier discussion, I conclude that only the bound
baby is a papoose.

I don't have a lot of experience discussing (American) Indian
children, so I - too - have never before been challenged with coming
up with a word to describe an unbound one.

It would have been my impression that an Indian woman uses/used the
papoose-on-the-back as a means of comfortably transporting the child
when she's on the move. It's never occured to me that keeping the
child bound at all times is/was the objective.

[Janet]

Post by Tony Cooper
I don't have a lot of experience discussing (American) Indian
children, so I - too - have never before been challenged with coming
up with a word to describe an unbound one.
It would have been my impression that an Indian woman uses/used the
papoose-on-the-back as a means of comfortably transporting the child
when she's on the move. It's never occured to me that keeping the
child bound at all times is/was the objective.

Binding or swaddling babies, exists in many other
cultures.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swaddling

My (midwife) mother firmly swaddled all her babies( as
did her mother, and so did I). Mary did the same to
Jesus.

Janet

[Peter Moylan]

Binding or swaddling babies, exists in many other cultures.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swaddling
My (midwife) mother firmly swaddled all her babies( as did her
mother, and so did I). Mary did the same to Jesus.

When I look at the chaos caused by my wife's one-year-old grandson, I am
firmly in favour of swaddling.

[Tony Cooper]

Post by Janet

Post by Tony Cooper
I don't have a lot of experience discussing (American) Indian
children, so I - too - have never before been challenged with coming
up with a word to describe an unbound one.
It would have been my impression that an Indian woman uses/used the
papoose-on-the-back as a means of comfortably transporting the child
when she's on the move. It's never occured to me that keeping the
child bound at all times is/was the objective.

Binding or swaddling babies, exists in many other
cultures.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swaddling
My (midwife) mother firmly swaddled all her babies( as
did her mother, and so did I). Mary did the same to
Jesus.

I'm fully aware of what "swaddling" is, but I don't see that it
pertains to this discussion.

I haven't seen/heard that the reason the (American) Indian women are
pictured with a papoose is because they were practicing swaddling. I
think it was purely a convenient and more confortable means of
remaining mobile while accompanied by an infant.

It left the arms free to carry things. The infant was more secure
when carried over uneven ground.

Also, I think the main point in this discussion is about whether
"papoose" describes the infant, describes the material used to contain
the infant, or describes an infant in the material.

At some time during the day, the infant could be removed from the
carrier. To be nursed or fed, for example. Is it still called a
"papoose" during that time?

[jerryfriedman]

On Mon, 2 Sep 2024 14:52:42 +0000, Tony Cooper wrote:

..

Post by Tony Cooper
Also, I think the main point in this discussion is about whether
"papoose" describes the infant, describes the material used to contain
the infant, or describes an infant in the material.

(Inclusive "or".)

Post by Tony Cooper
At some time during the day, the infant could be removed from the
carrier. To be nursed or fed, for example. Is it still called a
"papoose" during that time?

When I learned the word, I was told "Indian" men were
called braves, women were called squaws, and children
were called papooses. (Of course those meanings
have pretty much disappeared.). Carriers had nothing
to do with it, and I don't think I'd ever heard the "carrier"
meaning till this thread. However, I haven't talked much
with people about infant carriers.

[Steve Hayes]

Post by Tony Cooper

So it seems that people within the US understand "papoose" as referring
to a child, and outside the US it refers to a child holder?

Please...write "some people".
If I see an (American) Indian with a baby in a carrier strapped to her
back, I would describe that as a woman with a papoose.
However, if she removes the baby from the carrier and puts the baby on a
blanket on the ground, I would not say the baby is a "papoose".
You seem to want "people" in the US to all view things the same.

The OP said (I think quoting a dictionary or some such source) that in AmE
"papoose" meant a child, but everyone from outside the US whose comments
I have seen seems to think it means a child holder.

Perhaps the OP could clarify.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Steve Hayes
The OP said (I think quoting a dictionary or some such source) that
in AmE "papoose" meant a child, but everyone from outside the US
whose comments I have seen seems to think it means a child holder.

Not me. I knew that "papoose" meant a child, but until this thread I had
never heard of it meaning a child carrier.

[Tony Cooper]

On Mon, 2 Sep 2024 12:33:02 -0000 (UTC), Steve Hayes

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Tony Cooper

So it seems that people within the US understand "papoose" as referring
to a child, and outside the US it refers to a child holder?

Please...write "some people".
If I see an (American) Indian with a baby in a carrier strapped to her
back, I would describe that as a woman with a papoose.
However, if she removes the baby from the carrier and puts the baby on a
blanket on the ground, I would not say the baby is a "papoose".
You seem to want "people" in the US to all view things the same.

The OP said (I think quoting a dictionary or some such source) that in AmE
"papoose" meant a child, but everyone from outside the US whose comments
I have seen seems to think it means a child holder.
Perhaps the OP could clarify.

You have participated in this group long enough to know that a
dictionary cite does not at all indicate 100% or near-all usage of
some words.

That assumes that all Americans (in this case) look up a word to gain
the definition. In fact, the majority of Americans gain a definition
by how the word is/was used in the instance(s) where they first or
commonly come across it.

This is especially true with non-common words. Most - if not almost
all - Americans first came across "papoose" in some book or movie
where the context provided the meaning taken.

I don't think many (or even "any") Americans decided to look up the
word to determine if was the infant or the carrier or thought about
the term being used when the infant was not in carrier.

I think if you randomly stopped a number of Americans and asked
"What's a papoose?" the answers might be determined by the age of the
responder.

Older Americans, who first came across the word in a book or movie,
would opt for the "Indian baby carried on the mother's back".

Younger Americans, who are used to seeing people with a baby carrier
strapped to their body, would opt for "A baby carrier" because the
concept is the same as what we currently see.

Older Americans, by the way, are just as familiar with seeing people
with a baby carrier strapped to their bodies, but their definition is
fixed on first context.

[Steve Hayes]

On Mon, 02 Sep 2024 11:45:58 -0400, Tony Cooper

Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 2 Sep 2024 12:33:02 -0000 (UTC), Steve Hayes

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Tony Cooper

So it seems that people within the US understand "papoose" as referring
to a child, and outside the US it refers to a child holder?

Please...write "some people".
If I see an (American) Indian with a baby in a carrier strapped to her
back, I would describe that as a woman with a papoose.
However, if she removes the baby from the carrier and puts the baby on a
blanket on the ground, I would not say the baby is a "papoose".
You seem to want "people" in the US to all view things the same.

The OP said (I think quoting a dictionary or some such source) that in AmE
"papoose" meant a child, but everyone from outside the US whose comments
I have seen seems to think it means a child holder.
Perhaps the OP could clarify.

You have participated in this group long enough to know that a
dictionary cite does not at all indicate 100% or near-all usage of
some words.
That assumes that all Americans (in this case) look up a word to gain
the definition. In fact, the majority of Americans gain a definition
by how the word is/was used in the instance(s) where they first or
commonly come across it.

Yes, but I have also been in this group long enough to know that
dictionaries often reflect rather than determine popular usage.

Dictionaries go to people as much as, if not more than, people go to
dictionaries.

[Aidan Kehoe]

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Tony Cooper

So it seems that people within the US understand "papoose" as referring
to a child, and outside the US it refers to a child holder?

Please...write "some people".
If I see an (American) Indian with a baby in a carrier strapped to her
back, I would describe that as a woman with a papoose.
However, if she removes the baby from the carrier and puts the baby on a
blanket on the ground, I would not say the baby is a "papoose".
You seem to want "people" in the US to all view things the same.

The OP said (I think quoting a dictionary or some such source) that in AmE
"papoose" meant a child, but everyone from outside the US whose comments
I have seen seems to think it means a child holder.

The OP described that the word was new to him, explained that he had come
across it in a context where it described a child holder, and pasted the
definition from Wikipedia, which prioritises the “child” meaning. The OP has no
strong feelings on whether it means a child or a child holder, but comments
that the child holder meaning is more useful in that this type of
tightly-binding back-boarded structure has no other common word to describe it.

[Anders D. Nygaard]

Post by Aidan Kehoe

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Tony Cooper

So it seems that people within the US understand "papoose" as referring
to a child, and outside the US it refers to a child holder?

Please...write "some people".
If I see an (American) Indian with a baby in a carrier strapped to her
back, I would describe that as a woman with a papoose.
However, if she removes the baby from the carrier and puts the baby on a
blanket on the ground, I would not say the baby is a "papoose".
You seem to want "people" in the US to all view things the same.

The OP said (I think quoting a dictionary or some such source) that in AmE
"papoose" meant a child, but everyone from outside the US whose comments
I have seen seems to think it means a child holder.

The OP described that the word was new to him, explained that he had come
across it in a context where it described a child holder, and pasted the
definition from Wikipedia, which prioritises the “child” meaning. The OP has no
strong feelings on whether it means a child or a child holder, but comments
that the child holder meaning is more useful in that this type of
tightly-binding back-boarded structure has no other common word to describe it.

Yes, 'twas the Wikipedia reference that gave me the impression that
the "child" usage was common in the USA,

And Canada, methinks.

And Denmark. I - like another poster - learned brave/squaw/papoose
at an early age. Never had any occasion to use it, though.

/Anders, Denmark

[lar3ryca]

Post by Aidan Kehoe

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Tony Cooper

So it seems that people within the US understand "papoose" as referring
to a child, and outside the US it refers to a child holder?

Please...write "some people".
If I see an (American) Indian with a baby in a carrier strapped to her
back, I would describe that as a woman with a papoose.
However, if she removes the baby from the carrier and puts the baby on a
blanket on the ground, I would not say the baby is a "papoose".
You seem to want "people" in the US to all view things the same.

The OP said (I think quoting a dictionary or some such source) that in AmE
"papoose" meant a child, but everyone from outside the US whose comments
I have seen seems to think it means a child holder.

The OP described that the word was new to him, explained that he had come
across it in a context where it described a child holder, and pasted the
definition from Wikipedia, which prioritises the “child” meaning. The OP has no
strong feelings on whether it means a child or a child holder, but comments
that the child holder meaning is more useful in that this type of
tightly-binding back-boarded structure has no other common word to describe it.

Yes, 'twas the Wikipedia reference that gave me the impression that
the "child" usage was common in the USA,

And Canada, methinks.

and, as Peter Moylan points
out, in Australia. Elsewhere it seems to be understood primarily as a
child holder.

[Ross Clark]

Yes, 'twas the Wikipedia reference that gave me the impression that
the "child" usage was common in the USA, and, as Peter Moylan points
out, in Australia. Elsewhere it seems to be understood primarily as
a child holder.

Well, I'm not sure about "common in Australia". The word is rare here in
either meaning; we know it only from North American sources.

And let me point out that the North Americans themselves know it only
from "certain sources". It's not an everyday word. It's part of a
special vocabulary they have read or seen used (historically) with
reference to Indians (along with "squaw", "brave", "wampum", "how!" and
others). That's the reason for a certain vagueness about its meaning.

I should also point out that my youngest child is 36 years old, so my
understanding of child carriers is a long way out of date. I do have
grandchildren, but I carry them in child seats that are installed over
the back seats of my car.

[Peter Moylan]

Yes, 'twas the Wikipedia reference that gave me the impression that
the "child" usage was common in the USA, and, as Peter Moylan points
out, in Australia. Elsewhere it seems to be understood primarily as
a child holder.

Well, I'm not sure about "common in Australia". The word is rare here in
either meaning; we know it only from North American sources.

I should also point out that my youngest child is 36 years old, so my
understanding of child carriers is a long way out of date. I do have
grandchildren, but I carry them in child seats that are installed over
the back seats of my car.

[Steve Hayes]

Post by Aidan Kehoe

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Tony Cooper

So it seems that people within the US understand "papoose" as referring
to a child, and outside the US it refers to a child holder?

Please...write "some people".
If I see an (American) Indian with a baby in a carrier strapped to her
back, I would describe that as a woman with a papoose.
However, if she removes the baby from the carrier and puts the baby on a
blanket on the ground, I would not say the baby is a "papoose".
You seem to want "people" in the US to all view things the same.

The OP said (I think quoting a dictionary or some such source) that in AmE
"papoose" meant a child, but everyone from outside the US whose comments
I have seen seems to think it means a child holder.

The OP described that the word was new to him, explained that he had come
across it in a context where it described a child holder, and pasted the
definition from Wikipedia, which prioritises the “child” meaning. The OP has no
strong feelings on whether it means a child or a child holder, but comments
that the child holder meaning is more useful in that this type of
tightly-binding back-boarded structure has no other common word to describe it.

Yes, 'twas the Wikipedia reference that gave me the impression that
the "child" usage was common in the USA, and, as Peter Moylan points
out, in Australia. Elsewhere it seems to be understood primarily as a
child holder.

[Joy Beeson]

When I first heard the word "papoose" in the forties, it meant a
swaddled infant in a backpack.

So both the "child" sense and the "carrier" sense are new to me.

[Snidely]

Post by Aidan Kehoe
I came across this word for the first time today, in the second meaning from
Wikipedia, describing basically something to swaddle a toddler to keep it
“Papoose (from the Narragansett papoos, meaning "child")[1] is an American
English word whose present meaning is "a Native American child" (regardless
of tribe) or, even more generally, any child, usually used as a term of
endearment, often in the context of the child's mother.[2] In 1643, Roger
Williams recorded the word in his A Key into the Language of America, helping
to popularize it.[3]
[...]
Cradle boards and other child carriers used by Native Americans are known by
various names. In Algonquin history, the term papoose is sometimes used to
refer to a child carrier.”
Given I am 43 and fairly well-read I can assert that it has basically no
currency outside the US. Does it have much currency within the US?

I think it is still around in US, and it was very much around in the
'60s and before, mainly as a reference to the board-and-bundle
arrangement. I don't think it is as frowned upon as "squaw", but
probably some people consider it to be no longer acceptable.

Also, kids these day may think in terms of Grogu's hover pod.

/dps

[Snidely]

Post by Aidan Kehoe
I came across this word for the first time today, in the second meaning from
Wikipedia, describing basically something to swaddle a toddler to keep it
“Papoose (from the Narragansett papoos, meaning "child")[1] is an American
English word whose present meaning is "a Native American child" (regardless
of tribe) or, even more generally, any child, usually used as a term of
endearment, often in the context of the child's mother.[2] In 1643, Roger
Williams recorded the word in his A Key into the Language of America, helping
to popularize it.[3]
[...]
Cradle boards and other child carriers used by Native Americans are known by
various names. In Algonquin history, the term papoose is sometimes used to
refer to a child carrier.”
Given I am 43 and fairly well-read I can assert that it has basically no
currency outside the US. Does it have much currency within the US?

I think it is still around in US, and it was very much around in the '60s and
before, mainly as a reference to the board-and-bundle arrangement. I don't
think it is as frowned upon as "squaw", but probably some people consider it
to be no longer acceptable.
Also, kids these day may think in terms of Grogu's hover pod.

I have confirmed that two of my sprogs, now wrapping up their thirties,
are not familiar with "papoose". For another thread, note that they
are also not familiar with "a month of Sundays".

/dps

[Aidan Kehoe]

[...] I have confirmed that two of my sprogs, now wrapping up their
thirties, are not familiar with "papoose". For another thread, note that
they are also not familiar with "a month of Sundays".

I suppose from your absence of clarification of where you are, that you’re in
the US? Though “sprog” is used more this side of the Atlantic.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Aidan Kehoe

[...] I have confirmed that two of my sprogs, now wrapping up their
thirties, are not familiar with "papoose". For another thread, note that
they are also not familiar with "a month of Sundays".

I suppose from your absence of clarification of where you are, that you’re in
the US? Though “sprog” is used more this side of the Atlantic.

While Paul Juhl lived, he began writing in dk.kultur.sprog (sprog=
language), and in one of his first messages he wrote a little joke about
"sprog". He had to explain the word which I didn't know then. He learned
british English in school, but I doubt that he knew "sprog" then. He
spent his adult life (14+) in Canada.

[Aidan Kehoe]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Aidan Kehoe

[...] I have confirmed that two of my sprogs, now wrapping up their
thirties, are not familiar with "papoose". For another thread, note that
they are also not familiar with "a month of Sundays".

I suppose from your absence of clarification of where you are, that you’re
in the US? Though “sprog” is used more this side of the Atlantic.

While Paul Juhl lived, he began writing in dk.kultur.sprog (sprog=
language), and in one of his first messages he wrote a little joke about
"sprog". He had to explain the word which I didn't know then. He learned
british English in school, but I doubt that he knew "sprog" then. He
spent his adult life (14+) in Canada.

There’s a very entertaining Reddit user who uses “Poem_for_your_Sprog” as a
nick.

https://old.reddit.com/user/Poem_for_your_Sprog

He or she comes up with filthy, relevant rhymes very quickly after someone else
posts. Most of them are not appropriate for anyone’s sprog.

[Steve Hayes]

On Sat, 7 Sep 2024 11:28:10 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Aidan Kehoe

[...] I have confirmed that two of my sprogs, now wrapping up their
thirties, are not familiar with "papoose". For another thread, note that
they are also not familiar with "a month of Sundays".

I suppose from your absence of clarification of where you are, that you’re in
the US? Though “sprog” is used more this side of the Atlantic.

While Paul Juhl lived, he began writing in dk.kultur.sprog (sprog=
language), and in one of his first messages he wrote a little joke about
"sprog". He had to explain the word which I didn't know then. He learned
british English in school, but I doubt that he knew "sprog" then. He
spent his adult life (14+) in Canada.

At the University of Natal in the 1960s new mail students were called
sprogs, and new female students were called sprigs.

I vaguely recall that "sprog" was also used to refer to a kind of
sailing vessel.

[Chris Elvidge]

Post by Steve Hayes
On Sat, 7 Sep 2024 11:28:10 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Aidan Kehoe

[...] I have confirmed that two of my sprogs, now wrapping up their
thirties, are not familiar with "papoose". For another thread, note that
they are also not familiar with "a month of Sundays".

I suppose from your absence of clarification of where you are, that you’re in
the US? Though “sprog” is used more this side of the Atlantic.

While Paul Juhl lived, he began writing in dk.kultur.sprog (sprog=
language), and in one of his first messages he wrote a little joke about
"sprog". He had to explain the word which I didn't know then. He learned
british English in school, but I doubt that he knew "sprog" then. He
spent his adult life (14+) in Canada.

At the University of Natal in the 1960s new mail students were called
sprogs, and new female students were called sprigs.

What were the male students called?

Post by Steve Hayes
I vaguely recall that "sprog" was also used to refer to a kind of
sailing vessel.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Steve Hayes
At the University of Natal in the 1960s new mail students were called
sprogs, and new female students were called sprigs.

In my student days (Melbourne University, Victoria) the first-year
students were freshers and freshettes. The plural for both sexes was frosh.

The culture was such that the second-year students felt themselves to be
very mature, and superior to the raw beginners.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Peter Moylan
In my student days (Melbourne University, Victoria) the first-year
students were freshers and freshettes. The plural for both sexes was frosh.
The culture was such that the second-year students felt themselves to be
very mature, and superior to the raw beginners.

I think that that is the same in many countries and cultures. The
difference is what they do to the newcommers.

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

On Sun, 8 Sep 2024 21:59:38 +1000

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Steve Hayes
At the University of Natal in the 1960s new mail students were called
sprogs, and new female students were called sprigs.

In my student days (Melbourne University, Victoria) the first-year
students were freshers and freshettes. The plural for both sexes was frosh.
The culture was such that the second-year students felt themselves to be
very mature, and superior to the raw beginners.

Feh, bunch of sophomores.

[Steve Hayes]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Steve Hayes
At the University of Natal in the 1960s new mail students were called
sprogs, and new female students were called sprigs.

In my student days (Melbourne University, Victoria) the first-year
students were freshers and freshettes. The plural for both sexes was frosh.

That too.

Post by Peter Moylan
The culture was such that the second-year students felt themselves to be
very mature, and superior to the raw beginners.

Which is presumably why in the US they are called wise morons.

[Snidely]

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Steve Hayes
At the University of Natal in the 1960s new mail students were called
sprogs, and new female students were called sprigs.

In my student days (Melbourne University, Victoria) the first-year
students were freshers and freshettes. The plural for both sexes was frosh.

That too.

Post by Peter Moylan
The culture was such that the second-year students felt themselves to be
very mature, and superior to the raw beginners.

Which is presumably why in the US they are called wise morons.

Hmmm. Hadn't heard that before, but I haven't been on campus of a
4-year college or university for a while. Community and junior colleges
don't seem to use "freshman" or "sophmore" at all.

/dps

[jerryfriedman]

..

Post by Snidely

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Peter Moylan
The culture was such that the second-year students felt themselves to be
very mature, and superior to the raw beginners.

Which is presumably why in the US they are called wise morons.

Hmmm. Hadn't heard that before,

It's the origin of "sopho more".

Post by Snidely
but I haven't been on campus of a
4-year college or university for a while. Community and junior colleges
don't seem to use "freshman" or "sophmore" at all.

Where I teach, students are identified as one or the other
on our rosters, but I haven't figured out whether it means
anything that I might need to know. We don't have a lot
of students who graduate in two years.

--
Jerry Friedman

[jerryfriedman]

..

Post by Snidely

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Peter Moylan
The culture was such that the second-year students felt themselves to be
very mature, and superior to the raw beginners.

Which is presumably why in the US they are called wise morons.

Hmmm. Hadn't heard that before,

It's the origin of "sopho more".

Post by Snidely
but I haven't been on campus of a
4-year college or university for a while. Community and junior colleges
don't seem to use "freshman" or "sophmore" at all.

Where I teach, students are identified as one or the other
on our rosters, but I haven't figured out whether it means
anything that I might need to know. We don't have a lot
of students who graduate in two years.

--
Jerry Friedman

[lar3ryca]

Post by Aidan Kehoe
I came across this word for the first time today, in the second meaning from
Wikipedia, describing basically something to swaddle a toddler to keep it still
“Papoose (from the Narragansett papoos, meaning "child")[1] is an American
English word whose present meaning is "a Native American child" (regardless of
tribe) or, even more generally, any child, usually used as a term of
endearment, often in the context of the child's mother.[2] In 1643, Roger
Williams recorded the word in his A Key into the Language of America, helping
to popularize it.[3]
[...]
Cradle boards and other child carriers used by Native Americans are known by
various names. In Algonquin history, the term papoose is sometimes used to
refer to a child carrier.”
Given I am 43 and fairly well-read I can assert that it has basically no
currency outside the US. Does it have much currency within the US?

I was somewhat befuddled when I first heard someone call the child a
'papoose', as I had always heard it in reference to a child carrier.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Aidan Kehoe
Cradle boards and other child carriers used by Native Americans are
known by various names. In Algonquin history, the term papoose is
sometimes used to refer to a child carrier.”
Given I am 43 and fairly well-read I can assert that it has
basically no currency outside the US. Does it have much currency
within the US?

I was somewhat befuddled when I first heard someone call the child a
'papoose', as I had always heard it in reference to a child
carrier.

I'm the opposite. I knew that the word meant "child", but until today I
had never heard it to mean child carrier.

We had various styles of child carrier, of course, but we must have had
different names for them. (And now I've gone and forgotten all such names.)

[Tony Cooper]

Post by Aidan Kehoe
I came across this word for the first time today, in the second meaning from
Wikipedia, describing basically something to swaddle a toddler to keep it still
“Papoose (from the Narragansett papoos, meaning "child")[1] is an American
English word whose present meaning is "a Native American child" (regardless of
tribe) or, even more generally, any child, usually used as a term of
endearment, often in the context of the child's mother.[2] In 1643, Roger
Williams recorded the word in his A Key into the Language of America, helping
to popularize it.[3]
[...]
Cradle boards and other child carriers used by Native Americans are known by
various names. In Algonquin history, the term papoose is sometimes used to
refer to a child carrier.”
Given I am 43 and fairly well-read I can assert that it has basically no
currency outside the US. Does it have much currency within the US?

Interesting question. My reaction is "When would you need to use the
word?". I, of course, know the word, but can't think of any reason to
use the word unless I'm describing an (American) Indian person with an
certain type of infant carrier. That's not something that I
frequently - or even infrequently - need to do.

To have "currency", in my understanding, means the need must be
present.

I frequently see people with modern baby carriers strapped to their
back or front and containing an infant. But, I wouldn't use "papoose"
in that context.

However, the title of this photograph seems appropriate. "Osage
Indian Woman with Baby Carrier" is not.

Loading Image...

I disagree with the definition "Papoose (from the Narragansett papoos,
meaning "child") is an American English word whose present meaning is
"a Native American child".

I don't think the present meaning is the child. The present meaning
is "a Native American child in a child carrier". If the child isn't
in the carrier, I don't think anyone would describe the child as a
"papoose".

[Steve Hayes]

Post by Aidan Kehoe
Cradle boards and other child carriers used by Native Americans are
known by various names. In Algonquin history, the term papoose is
sometimes used to refer to a child carrier.”
Given I am 43 and fairly well-read I can assert that it has basically no
currency outside the US. Does it have much currency within the US?

I knew it as a child in South Africa, certainly before the age of ten,
and I also knew it to be of North American origin. In my understanding it
referred to a young child being carried on its mother's back tightly
bundled.

Such a sight was familiar to me growing up, as black women in South
Africa often carried young children on their backs in that way, usually
tied up in blankets.

In Namibia the Herero people used a square of untanned goatskin, with
strips of skin attached to each corner, for that purpose. It was called
"otjivereko", and we were given one as a gift when our eldest child was
born. Back then, in the 1970s, white people often carried children in
that way too, sometimes on the back, and sometimes in front, and one
could buy a kind of canvas otjivereko in many shops selling baby goods.

So in my understanding a "papoose" was a North American otjivereko, which
differed from the southern African version in incorporating a stiff board.