Discussion:
Cursive writing (penmanship) and German Fraktur
(too old to reply)
Hen Hanna
2016-01-05 19:24:13 UTC
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RALEIGH, N.C.--Across North Carolina and in dozens of other states, teachers are committing what once would have been heresy: They are writing off cursive script.
The common core state standards, a set of math and English goals agreed upon by 45 states and now being implemented, sends cursive the way of the quill pen, while requiring instead that students be proficient in keyboarding by fourth grade.
Cursive is optional--and, so far, few schools have opted for it.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323644904578272151551627948.html
Maybe a few decades from now,
ppl will have MUCH MORE trouble reading
older text in cursive writing.

which reminds me .......

Loading Image...

Faktur (etc.) seems so hard to make out today.

Was it more readable to ppl at one time?

Or Did its design come more from constraints
of the printing press of that period ?


"Victor jagt zwölf Boxkämpfer quer über den Sylter Deich"

Loading Image...

HH
Peter T. Daniels
2016-01-05 19:45:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hen Hanna
RALEIGH, N.C.--Across North Carolina and in dozens of other states, teachers are committing what once would have been heresy: They are writing off cursive script.
The common core state standards, a set of math and English goals agreed upon by 45 states and now being implemented, sends cursive the way of the quill pen, while requiring instead that students be proficient in keyboarding by fourth grade.
Cursive is optional--and, so far, few schools have opted for it.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323644904578272151551627948.html
Post by Hen Hanna
Maybe a few decades from now,
ppl will have MUCH MORE trouble reading
older text in cursive writing.
What I have trouble reading is your incessant indenting of lines.
Post by Hen Hanna
which reminds me .......
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/Gebrochene_Schriften.png
Faktur (etc.) seems so hard to make out today.
Was it more readable to ppl at one time?
Of course. It's what they were used to.
Post by Hen Hanna
Or Did its design come more from constraints
of the printing press of that period ?
No. Its design came from the first printers' need to compete with manuscript
copyists so they made type look as much like handwriting as possible.

When printing came next to Italy, they made Antiqua (as the Germans call it)
type because that was their formal handwriting, and soon they made Italic
(their informal handwriting) because it took up less space on the page and
so was more economical (less paper for the same amount of content).
Post by Hen Hanna
"Victor jagt zwölf Boxkämpfer quer über den Sylter Deich"
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d3/Fraktur_walbaum.png
Hen Hanna
2016-01-05 20:25:16 UTC
Permalink
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323644904578272151551627948.html
Post by Hen Hanna
Maybe a few decades from now,
ppl will have MUCH MORE trouble reading
older text in cursive writing.
which also reminds me of what's been happening in Korea.
Post by Hen Hanna
which reminds me .......
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/Gebrochene_Schriften.png
Faktur (etc.) seems so hard to make out today.
Was it more readable to ppl at one time?
Of course. It's what they were used to.
Post by Hen Hanna
Or Did its design come more from constraints
of the printing press of that period ?
No. Its design came from the first printers' need to compete with manuscript
copyists so they made type look as much like handwriting as possible.
When printing came next to Italy, they made Antiqua (as the Germans call it)
type because that was their formal handwriting, and soon they made Italic
(their informal handwriting) because it took up less space on the page and
so was more economical (less paper for the same amount of content).
Post by Hen Hanna
"Victor jagt zwölf Boxkämpfer quer über den Sylter Deich"
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d3/Fraktur_walbaum.png
Loading Image...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiqua-Fraktur_dispute

Thank you... (very helpful) I also found more info on the net. HH
Post by Hen Hanna
In 1933 Hitler declared the new typography to be un-German and declared Fraktur to be "Volk", i.e. the people's font. The Nazis continued to use Fraktur extensively until 1941 when it was replace[d] with more readable fonts.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reclams_Universal-Bibliothek

Umschlaggestaltung[Bearbeiten]

Allgemein[Bearbeiten]

Die Umschläge der Universal-Bibliothek waren und sind einheitlich gestaltet, wobei das Design 1917, 1936, 1949, 1957, 1970, 1988 und 2012[3] grundlegend überarbeitet wurde. 1949 nahm man dabei Abschied von der Fraktur, ...


----- What about the typeface for the main text?
Helmut Wollmersdorfer
2016-01-17 13:14:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hen Hanna
Thank you... (very helpful) I also found more info on the net. HH
In 1933 Hitler declared the new typography to be un-German and declared Fraktur to be "Volk", i.e. the people's font.
Reference? AFAIK the opposite is true.
Post by Hen Hanna
The Nazis continued to use Fraktur extensively until 1941 when it was replace[d] with more readable fonts.
Hitler himself *forbid* Fraktur.

Helmut Wollmersdorfer
Hen Hanna
2016-01-19 19:35:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Helmut Wollmersdorfer
Post by Hen Hanna
Thank you... (very helpful) I also found more info on the net. HH
In 1933 Hitler declared the new typography to be un-German and declared Fraktur to be "Volk", i.e. the people's font.
Reference? AFAIK the opposite is true.
http://www.eyemagazine.com/feature/article/the-meanings-of-type
In 1933, however, the Nazi government revived the blackletter face, proclaiming it Volk (or the people's) type and condemned the New Typography as un-German.

........... When the Nazis came to power in 1933 Fraktur became the government's semi-official typeface (and a symbol of its anti-Semitism as portrayed in Der Sturmer).

----------- Der Stürmer was a weekly tabloid-format Nazi newspaper published by Julius Streicher (a prominent official in the Nazi Party) from 1923 to the end of World War II, with brief suspensions in publication due to legal difficulties. It was a significant part of Nazi propaganda and was vehemently anti-Semitic.



https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraktur_(Schrift)
Verwendung der Fraktur in der Neuzeit

Die Frakturschrift wurde in Deutschland in ausgewählten Publikationsbereichen Ende des 19. Jahrhunderts von der Antiqua abgelöst. So änderten im Zuge der Internationalisierung wissenschaftlich-technische Zeitschriften ihre Typographie, zum Beispiel bereits 1872 die Zeitschrift des Vereines Deutscher Ingenieure.[1] In anderen Bereichen war Frakturschrift bis nach dem Ersten Weltkrieg üblich, danach begann sich im Zuge der Neuen Typographie allmählich die Antiqua durchzusetzen.

Zur Zeit des Nationalsozialismus erlebte die Fraktur insbesondere als Auszeichnungs-, aber auch als Textschrift zunächst eine Renaissance, da sie als deutsche Schrift betrachtet wurde. Man berief sich unter anderem auf Cäsar Flaischlen, der "Vom Herrenrecht unserer deutschen Schrift" gedichtet hatte. Ab Juni 1933 forcierte das Reichsinnenministerium das Vorhaben, Schreibmaschinen mit Frakturschrift verbindlich in Behörden einzuführen. Der Fachnormenausschuss für Schreibmaschinen scheiterte jedoch an der Aufgabe, sich auf verbindliche Schriftzeichen zu einigen. In diesem Ausschuss war auch die Schreibmaschinenindustrie vertreten, die eigentlich ein Interesse an verstärktem Absatz hätte haben müssen. Hitler selbst war jedoch kein Freund des Romantischen und erklärte auf einer Kulturtagung der NSDAP 1934: "Der nationalsozialistische Staat [muss] sich verwahren gegen das plötzliche Auftauchen jener Rückwärtse, die meinen, eine ,teutsche Kunst' aus der trauten Welt ihrer eigenen romantischen Vorstellungen der nationalsozialistischen Revolution als verpflichtendes Erbteil für die Zukunft mitgeben zu können ..."[2] So wurde das Vorhaben der Umstellung der Schreibmaschinen nicht weiter forciert.[3]

Seit 1940 sollten alle für das Ausland gedruckten Texte in Antiqua gesetzt werden, worüber die Bevölkerung jedoch nicht informiert wurde. Die Schriftpolitik blieb über längere Zeit völlig unklar. Ein Erlass des NSDAP-Regimes von 3. Januar 1941, in welchem Martin Bormann in Hitlers Auftrag die der Fraktur ähnliche Schwabacher als "Judenschrift" bezeichnete, erklärte dann in einer totalen Kehrtwendung (und in Verkehrung der tatsächlichen Entwicklung der Schrift) die Antiqua zur "Normalschrift". ............

________________


Using the fracture in modern times

The Fraktur was replaced in Germany in selected fields of publication the late 19th century by the Antiqua. So changing the course of the internationalization of scientific and technical journals their typography, for example, in 1872 the Journal of the Association of German Engineers.[1] In other areas was Frakturschrift until after the First World War customary then began in the wake of the New Typography gradually Antiqua enforce.


At the time of National Socialism, the fracture experienced particularly as Marking, as well as text font initially a Renaissance, as it was considered a German magazine.

It relied, inter alia, on Caesar Flaischlen who had written "From the Lord our German legal publication".

As of June 1933, the Ministry of the Interior forced the plan to introduce binding typewriters Frakturschrift in authorities. However, the standards committee for typewriters failed at the task to agree on a binding character.

In this committee the typewriter industry was represented, which would actually have an interest in reinforced heel must have.

However, Hitler himself was no friend of the Romantic and declared at a cultural meeting of the NSDAP 1934: "The National Socialist state [must] keep themselves against the sudden appearance of those Rückwärtse who think one teutsche Art 'from the trust world of their own romantic notions of of you with the National Socialist revolution as a compulsory inheritance for the future ... "[2]

So the intention of the conversion of the typewriter was not forced. [3]



Since 1940, all printed for international texts should be put in Antiqua, what the population was not informed. The signature policy remained unclear for a long time. A decree of the Nazi regime from January 3, 1941, in which Martin Bormann in Hitler's order that the fracture similar Schwabacher called "Jewish Scriptures", then declared in a total U-turn (and in perversion of the actual development of writing) the Antiqua for " Normal font ". ............

________________

Wolfgang Schwanke
2016-01-10 20:58:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
When printing came next to Italy, they made Antiqua (as the Germans call it)
What is antiqua called in English?
Post by Peter T. Daniels
type because that was their formal handwriting, and soon they
made Italic (their informal handwriting) because it took up less space
on the page and so was more economical (less paper for the same amount
of content).
I thought the point of antiqua was that it's closer to the original
Roman forms, while Fraktur adds lots of pointless mannerisms.
--
John Peel is not enough

http://www.wschwanke.de/ http://www.fotos-aus-der-luft.de/
usenet_20031215 (AT) wschwanke (DOT) de
Peter T. Daniels
2016-01-10 23:56:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wolfgang Schwanke
Post by Peter T. Daniels
When printing came next to Italy, they made Antiqua (as the Germans call it)
What is antiqua called in English?
roman
Post by Wolfgang Schwanke
Post by Peter T. Daniels
type because that was their formal handwriting, and soon they
made Italic (their informal handwriting) because it took up less space
on the page and so was more economical (less paper for the same amount
of content).
I thought the point of antiqua was that it's closer to the original
Roman forms, while Fraktur adds lots of pointless mannerisms.
The Germans (Gutenberg and friends) made type from the formal hand their
scribes wrote with, the Italians made type from the formal hand _their_
scribes wrote with (and a few years later, made italic to save money).
Helmut Richter
2016-01-05 21:54:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hen Hanna
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/Gebrochene_Schriften.png
Faktur (etc.) seems so hard to make out today.
-> Fraktur
Post by Hen Hanna
Was it more readable to ppl at one time?
In the 1950ies when I was a child there were only few books still
printed in Fraktur, most notably Luther's Bible (then the revision of
1912 which was later replaced by the edition of 1984 -- I think there
was also a revision around 1956 which has never become popular) and the
books by Karl May. So we were acquainted with the script and able to
read it but it was not the script we normally encountered. Today many
people have significant difficulty reading it, not only children.

Schwabacher is a bit easier to read and I like its design. It was seldom
used in books -- I think I have only one or two.
Post by Hen Hanna
Or Did its design come more from constraints
of the printing press of that period ?
A have a little booklet of the beginning of the 20th century advocating
the continued use of Fraktur. The reasoning appears cogent to me:
Fraktur has much more differences between letters. E.g. the ascenders of
b, d, h, k, t all look the same in Antiqua but different in Fraktur, and
b, p, d, q are the same shape in Antiqua but different in Fraktur. So
Fraktur gives a lot more hints for recognition of a word before the
single letters are fixated one at a time. And they argued that Fraktur
does indeed make full use of the possibilities of printing with moveable
type (500 years after Gutenberg), compared to Antiqua script which makes
unnecessary simplifications as were necessary for handwriting. They even
have tried to perform measurements how long it takes to read and where
the eyes wander when reading -- of course difficult with the technical
means of the 1920ies.

I cannot say whether the advantages of recognition of Fraktur were
indeed as advocated, at least for people used to reading Fraktur script.
For me, they were not but, after all, reading Fraktur was the exception.
Today, I have the subjective impression to be able to read Fraktur as
fluently as Antiqua, but if I would measure the time I would probably
find out that I read Fraktur significantly slower.
--
Helmut Richter
Helmut Richter
2016-01-05 23:31:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Helmut Richter
A have a little booklet of the beginning of the 20th century advocating
the continued use of Fraktur. [...]
Meanwhile I found the booklet. It is

Dr. August Kirschmann: Antiqua oder Fraktur?
2. Auflage, Leipzig 1912

Kirschmann was then professor at the University of Toronto. Much of his
research was the physiology and psychology of optical recognition, and
this is also what most of the booklet is about. His main point is that
the point where the eye is fixated never jumps from letter to letter,
except for spelling, but from word to word omitting small words. So most
of the text is read not in the centre of the focus, from which he draws
further conclusions about which letter forms aid in reading. He
describes experiments to verify these conclusions.

A curriculum vitae of Kirschmann can be found at
https://www.uni-leipzig.de/unigeschichte/professorenkatalog/leipzig/Kirschmann_240.pdf
and
http://www.psych.utoronto.ca/museum/kirschmann.htm
--
Helmut Richter
Hen Hanna
2016-01-06 18:58:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Helmut Richter
Post by Hen Hanna
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/Gebrochene_Schriften.png
F[r]aktur (etc.) seems so hard to make out today.
Was it more readable to ppl at one time?
In the 1950ies when I was a child there were only few books still
printed in Fraktur, most notably Luther's Bible (then the revision of
thank you for the comments.

I think I own only 1 book printed in Fraktur.

I can hardly make out the letters, so it's
nearly useless (an exaggeration)
as a book.

____________________

http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/31839302?selectedversion=NBD27130463

1924,

Treasury of German song : a collection of lyrics and ballads

by B. J. Vos, and other teachers in Indiana university.

H. Holt [c 1924] vii, 81 p. ; 17 cm.
Helmut Wollmersdorfer
2016-01-17 12:37:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Helmut Richter
Schwabacher is a bit easier to read and I like its design. It was seldom
used in books -- I think I have only one or two.
Schwabacher needs more space. Recognition in OCR is better than Fraktur.

Schwabacher has been used as "Auszeichnungsschrift", i.e. instead of bold. Most Fraktur typefaces did not have a bold variant up to ~1900.

In a typical scientific book published 1770-1870 the following was used:

- Fraktur for the German text
- spaced Fraktur (after ~1830)
- Schwabacher for names of persons, e.g. authors
- Antiqua for foreign languages
- Italic, Antiqua for Latin
- sometimes Greek, Hebrew

Orthography and Typography has more or less variations depending on region and time.

Small e above a, o, u for Umlauts before ~1830.

Rotunda, long s - also used in Antiqua, Latin printed in Italic. Other languages (English, Danish etc.) also used them.

Helmut Wollmersdorfer
Pierre Jelenc
2016-01-05 23:33:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hen Hanna
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/Gebrochene_Schriften.png
Faktur (etc.) seems so hard to make out today.
As an organic chemist I had no choice but to be able to read Fraktur,
since that was the type used in the older volumes of the "Beilsteins
Handbuch der Organischen Chemie". I never found it especially difficult.

Kurrent, however, the hand-written form of Fraktur, is quite more
difficult because too many letters (c, e, i, n, m, r, u, v, w) are
indistinguishable except in the most careful penmanship.

Pierre
--
Pierre Jelenc
The Gigometer www.gigometer.com
The NYC Beer Guide www.nycbeer.org
Wolfgang Schwanke
2016-01-10 20:54:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hen Hanna
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/Gebrochene_Schrifte
n.png
Faktur (etc.) seems so hard to make out today.
Personally I have no trouble reading printed Fraktur fonts, but
handwritten (Sytterlin) is nearly undecipherable for me.
Post by Hen Hanna
Was it more readable to ppl at one time?
Yes before mit-20th century it was the standard in Germany both in
print and handwriting, but the generations grown up afterwards have
grown up with antiqua-style fonts.
Post by Hen Hanna
Or Did its design come more from constraints
of the printing press of that period ?
No absolutely not, it is just a trend thing.
--
John Peel is not enough

http://www.wschwanke.de/ http://www.fotos-aus-der-luft.de/
usenet_20031215 (AT) wschwanke (DOT) de
Helmut Wollmersdorfer
2016-01-17 13:07:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hen Hanna
RALEIGH, N.C.--Across North Carolina and in dozens of other states, teachers are committing what once would have been heresy: They are writing off cursive script.
The common core state standards, a set of math and English goals agreed upon by 45 states and now being implemented, sends cursive the way of the quill pen, while requiring instead that students be proficient in keyboarding by fourth grade.
Cursive is optional--and, so far, few schools have opted for it.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323644904578272151551627948.html
Maybe a few decades from now,
ppl will have MUCH MORE trouble reading
older text in cursive writing.
At my time (born 1957, Austria) we had to learn writing "Blockschrift" (all uppercase grotesk/sans-serif), "Druckschrift" (mixed case), "Schulschrift" https://www.bmbf.gv.at/ministerium/rs/1994_56_beilage4_15141.pdf?4e4zxz in the first year at school.

Later in the first years of Gymnasium (at age 12 - 14) we where offered additional courses in Kurrent, shorthand, typewriting and calligraphy.

BTW: Most European languages used broken typefaces (Gothic, Blackletter, Fraktur). They only changed earlier than the Germans. Italy, France, England changed early.

Helmut Wollmersdorfer
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