The soon ex-minister

[Christian Weisgerber]

Today, I stumbled over the French phrase "le désormais ex-ministre
de l’Education nationale"... and then realized that the same
construction also exists in German and English, e.g., "the soon
ex-president".

What part of speech is "soon" and its equivalents here?

It looks like an adjective modifying the following noun. However,
dictionaries insist that "soon" or "désormais" can only be adverbs,
and in German ("der bald Ex-Minister"), "bald" is also an adverb
and notably fails to inflect like an adjective.

What does "soon" modify? Lodged between determiner and noun, it
can hardly be a sentence adverb.

Can anybody make grammatical sense of this construction?

[Blue-Maned_Hawk]

I'd say it's an adverb attached to the adjective that is the “ex-” prefix.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Tue, 9 Jan 2024 23:37:07 -0000 (UTC): Blue-Maned_Hawk

Post by Blue-Maned_Hawk
I'd say it's an adverb attached to the adjective that is the “ex-” prefix.

Agreed. Soon ex minister would then be the correct spelling.

[wugi]

Post by Blue-Maned_Hawk
I'd say it's an adverb attached to the adjective that is the “ex-” prefix.

No, because there is also

"The then Minister" or alike.

But see Tilde's suggestion.

Even read in Spanish: things like

El entonces ministro
Los demás clientes
...

German adjectivises here(!):
Der hiesigen Minister
and then, soon, ...(?)

[wugi]

Post by wugi

Post by Blue-Maned_Hawk
I'd say it's an adverb attached to the adjective that is the “ex-” prefix.

No, because there is also
"The then Minister" or alike.
But see Tilde's suggestion.
Even read in Spanish: things like
El entonces ministro
Los demás clientes
...
Der hiesigen Minister
and then, soon, ...(?)

Just seen:
Der gestrigen Unfall.
Others? Ah, from my pocket dico:
baldig
Der morgige Tag...
Couldn't find dannig (der dannige Minister) though...

[Antonio Marques]

Of course my hypothesis that this can be analyzed the same way
across those languages may be wrong. ;-)

I’ve been thinking that portuguese is somewhat flexible in that regard.

- o ainda ministro ‘the still minister’
- o então ministro ‘ the then minister’
- o não tarda nada ex-ministro ‘the won’t take long ex-minister’

(tardar = to take longer than expected,
não tarda nada = will happen very soon,
não tarda muito = will happen soon)

(I don’t know the applicability of any of this outside post-1950 Portugal)

English whilom seems to be specifically meant for the ‘damalig’ usage,
where other languages reuse more flexible words.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Mon, 15 Jan 2024 15:39:14 -0000 (UTC): Antonio Marques

Post by Antonio Marques

Of course my hypothesis that this can be analyzed the same way
across those languages may be wrong. ;-)

I’ve been thinking that portuguese is somewhat flexible in that regard.
- o ainda ministro ‘the still minister’
- o então ministro ‘ the then minister’
- o não tarda nada ex-ministro ‘the won’t take long ex-minister’
(tardar = to take longer than expected,
não tarda nada = will happen very soon,
não tarda muito = will happen soon)

Muito interesante, obrigado! Maybe I can use this in the online
Portuguese lessons I am taking again.

This of course has to do with the double negation which sometimes
occurs in Portuguese:
não ... nada = nothing, não ... muito = not much.
That explains the apparent illogicality for non-Portuguese speakers.

Post by Antonio Marques
(I don’t know the applicability of any of this outside post-1950 Portugal)
English whilom seems to be specifically meant for the ‘damalig’ usage,
where other languages reuse more flexible words.

Don't know about whilom, but the Dutch cognate 'wijlen' is strictly
only used in a fixed expression. No, not there is also "hij is wijlen"
= he is dead (or: it is dead, jocularly said about a device).

And is "kassiewijlen" connected to it?
https://nl.wiktionary.org/wiki/kassiewijle
That's what I hate about this kind of etymologies, saying it is
Yiddish-Hebrew, but NOT saying what the form in those languages is.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kassiewijle also has no etymology.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Don't know about whilom, but the Dutch cognate 'wijlen' is strictly
only used in a fixed expression. No, not there is also "hij is wijlen"
= he is dead (or: it is dead, jocularly said about a device).
And is "kassiewijlen" connected to it?
https://nl.wiktionary.org/wiki/kassiewijle
That's what I hate about this kind of etymologies, saying it is
Yiddish-Hebrew, but NOT saying what the form in those languages is.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kassiewijle also has no etymology.

https://www.dbnl.org/tekst/_tij003201001_01/_tij003201001_01_0026.php
==
In dit geval kunnen Beem (1975) en kn ons niet helpen, maar uit v&p en
Weinberg (1973) valt op te maken dat chasmeine / chosmeine een
populaire uitdrukking was uit het slotgebed van Jom Kippoer. Deze
uitdrukking betekent naar het Hebreeuws ‘verzegel ons [in het boek]’,
wat in het Jiddisch een vrouwelijk naamwoord geworden is met als
betekenis ‘Abschluß, Besiegelung, Schlag, Schaden’ volgens Weinberg,
en ‘kaakslag’ volgens v&p.

Deze lezingen voldoen niet, maar chasm-eine / chosm-eine ‘verzegel
ons’ zou ten grondslag kunnen liggen aan ons tussenwerpsel. Alleen de
‘uitgang’ -ie in gossie- geeft nog problemen. Maar hier zou ‘rijm’ met
dat andere liturgische citaat hasjiw-eine ‘voer ons terug’, waaruit
asjewijne / kassiewijne / kassiewijle ‘weg, dood’ voortgekomen is, een
rol kunnen spelen.
==

[Tilde]

Post by Christian Weisgerber
Today, I stumbled over the French phrase "le désormais ex-ministre
de l’Education nationale"... and then realized that the same
construction also exists in German and English, e.g., "the soon
ex-president".
What part of speech is "soon" and its equivalents here?
It looks like an adjective modifying the following noun. However,
dictionaries insist that "soon" or "désormais" can only be adverbs,
and in German ("der bald Ex-Minister"), "bald" is also an adverb
and notably fails to inflect like an adjective.
What does "soon" modify? Lodged between determiner and noun, it
can hardly be a sentence adverb.
Can anybody make grammatical sense of this construction?

Yes ;)

In English that's usually expressed as "soon-to-be <fill
in the blank>" and ENglish dictionaries do indeed class
the word as an adverb

Such as,

"the soon to be married prince"

"the soon to be ex-minister of finance"

Ah, here we go:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/soon-to-be
Adjective
soon-to-be
Planned or destined to have a specified position or quality in the near future.

So here it's an adjective phrase and above it modifies
"prince" and "ex-minister of finance".

[Ruud Harmsen]

Tue, 9 Jan 2024 21:47:41 -0000 (UTC): Christian Weisgerber

Post by Christian Weisgerber
Today, I stumbled over the French phrase "le désormais ex-ministre
de l’Education nationale"... and then realized that the same
construction also exists in German and English, e.g., "the soon
ex-president".
What part of speech is "soon" and its equivalents here?
It looks like an adjective modifying the following noun. However,
dictionaries insist that "soon" or "désormais" can only be adverbs,
and in German ("der bald Ex-Minister"), "bald" is also an adverb
and notably fails to inflect like an adjective.
What does "soon" modify?

Ex.

Post by Christian Weisgerber
Lodged between determiner and noun, it
can hardly be a sentence adverb.
Can anybody make grammatical sense of this construction?

Soon to be ex-minister. That solves it.

[Antonio Marques]

Post by Christian Weisgerber
Today, I stumbled over the French phrase "le désormais ex-ministre
de l’Education nationale"... and then realized that the same
construction also exists in German and English, e.g., "the soon
ex-president".
What part of speech is "soon" and its equivalents here?
It looks like an adjective modifying the following noun. However,
dictionaries insist that "soon" or "désormais" can only be adverbs,
and in German ("der bald Ex-Minister"), "bald" is also an adverb
and notably fails to inflect like an adjective.
What does "soon" modify? Lodged between determiner and noun, it
can hardly be a sentence adverb.
Can anybody make grammatical sense of this construction?

I’m more used to seeing ‘the soon to be <something>’. Here, the fact that
the something is a negative may interfere.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Christian Weisgerber
Today, I stumbled over the French phrase "le désormais ex-ministre
de l’Education nationale"... and then realized that the same
construction also exists in German and English, e.g., "the soon
ex-president".
What part of speech is "soon" and its equivalents here?
It looks like an adjective modifying the following noun. However,
dictionaries insist that "soon" or "désormais" can only be adverbs,
and in German ("der bald Ex-Minister"), "bald" is also an adverb
and notably fails to inflect like an adjective.
What does "soon" modify? Lodged between determiner and noun, it
can hardly be a sentence adverb.
Can anybody make grammatical sense of this construction?

Not the same question, I know, but I've always found the word order for
"feu" ("late") in French to be odd. Where I would say "your late
father" they say "feu votre père". Does the equivalent of feu/late in
other languages behave like that? Spanish "tu difunto padre" follows
the English style.

To go to your actual question, I think the usual expression in English
would be "the soon-to-be ex-president" rather than "the soon
ex-president". Naked "soon" sounds odd to me.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Not the same question, I know, but I've always found the word order for
"feu" ("late") in French to be odd. Where I would say "your late
father" they say "feu votre père". Does the equivalent of feu/late in
other languages behave like that? Spanish "tu difunto padre" follows
the English style.

Wijlen je vader. Dutch.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/wijlen
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/whilom#English

[wugi]

Post by Ruud Harmsen

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Not the same question, I know, but I've always found the word order for
"feu" ("late") in French to be odd. Where I would say "your late
father" they say "feu votre père". Does the equivalent of feu/late in
other languages behave like that? Spanish "tu difunto padre" follows
the English style.

Wijlen je vader. Dutch.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/wijlen

I'd thought that it was a verbal form, which would explain the 'inverse'
word order. A pp of "wijlen" or so, meaning
"having been/existed/dwelled" person X.
But here they suggest rather a nominal adverb, sth like
"from the [former] while/period" person X.

Same with French "feu" Mr/Mme X.
I thought it was a verbal form from the past of L. esse: fuit=>
"Was/Having existed" M/M X.
But it is instead a kind of verbalised adjective from L. fatum, fate:
fatutus=>
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/feu#Etymology_2_2
"Having acomplished their fate" M/M X.

[wugi]

Post by wugi
Same with French "feu" Mr/Mme X.

Er, rather
feu(e) Mr (Mme) X.
feu/e Mr/Mme X.
or alike (:/

[wugi]

Post by wugi

Post by wugi
Same with French "feu" Mr/Mme X.

Er, rather
feu(e) Mr (Mme) X.
feu/e Mr/Mme X.
or alike (:/

Wrong again, wugi:
https://www.dictionnaire-academie.fr/article/A9F0589

So,
Feu Mme X.
or,
La feue Mme X.

The latter is a "regular" adjective!
The former seems a verbal form use.

[HenHanna]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Not the same question, I know, but I've always found the word order for
"feu" ("late") in French to be odd. Where I would say "your late
father" they say "feu votre père".

That is indeed very odd.
(I wasn't even aware of this until now.)
The English use of "late" in this context is highly idiomatic, too.

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Does the equivalent of feu/late in other languages behave like that?

Not in German, where we use unremarkable past participles as
Ihr verstorbener Vater
also: verblichener, verschiedener, von uns gegangener

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
To go to your actual question, I think the usual expression in English
would be "the soon-to-be ex-president" rather than "the soon
ex-president". Naked "soon" sounds odd to me.

It's possible that naked "soon", to the degree that it is acceptable
for some speakers, is a clipping of "soon-to-be".

feu in "feu votre père"

where else would the [feu] go?



_____________________ Didn't HenryV say "happy few" ?

King Henry V does indeed say "we happy few" in his famous Saint
Crispin's Day speech from William Shakespeare's play "Henry V".



The word feu in the phrase "feu votre père" is an adjective that means
"late" or "deceased". It is used to refer to someone who has died.

The word feu is derived from the Latin word felix, which
means "happy" or "fortunate". This may seem like an odd connection, but
it is thought that the word felix was originally used to describe
someone who had died a good death, and that it later came to be used
more generally to refer to anyone who had died.

The use of feu before a noun to indicate that the person
referred to is deceased is a common feature of French. For example, you
might say "feu le président" to refer to the late president. This usage
is similar to the English use of the word "the late" before a name.

Here are some examples of how the word feu is used in French:

Le feu Président de la République (The late President of the Republic)
Ma feue grand-mère (My late grandmother)
Feu mon ami (My late friend)

[guido wugi]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Not the same question, I know, but I've always found the word order for
"feu" ("late") in French to be odd. Where I would say "your late
father" they say "feu votre père".

That is indeed very odd.
(I wasn't even aware of this until now.)
The English use of "late" in this context is highly idiomatic, too.

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Does the equivalent of feu/late in other languages behave like that?

Not in German, where we use unremarkable past participles as
   Ihr verstorbener Vater
   also: verblichener, verschiedener, von uns gegangener

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
To go to your actual question, I think the usual expression in English
would be "the soon-to-be ex-president" rather than "the soon
ex-president". Naked "soon" sounds odd to me.

It's possible that naked "soon", to the degree that it is acceptable
for some speakers, is a clipping of "soon-to-be".

 feu in "feu votre père"
         where else would the [feu]  go?
_____________________  Didn't HenryV say  "happy few" ?
King Henry V does indeed say "we happy few" in his famous Saint
Crispin's Day speech  from William Shakespeare's play  "Henry V".
The word feu in the phrase "feu votre père" is an adjective that means
"late" or "deceased". It is used to refer to someone who has died.
          The word feu is derived from the Latin word felix, which
means "happy" or "fortunate". This may seem like an odd connection,
but it is thought that the word felix was originally used to describe
someone who had died a good death, and that it later came to be used
more generally to refer to anyone who had died.

Where did you get that from? Its origin is pop. Lat. *fatudus, "fated",
fate-accomplished, from fatum, fate.

The use of feu before a noun to indicate that the person referred to
is deceased is a common feature of French. For example, you might say
"feu le président" to refer to the late president. This usage is
similar to the English use of the word "the late" before a name.
Le feu Président de la République (The late President of the Republic)
Ma feue grand-mère (My late grandmother)
Feu mon ami (My late friend)

Feu la reine.
La feue reine.

In Dutch:
"wijlen", from "een wijl", a while,
an unchanging adj. preceding its noun and article/pronoun:
Wijlen de koningin.
Wijlen mijn moeder.

[HenHanna]

Post by guido wugi

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Not the same question, I know, but I've always found the word order for
"feu" ("late") in French to be odd. Where I would say "your late
father" they say "feu votre père".

That is indeed very odd.
(I wasn't even aware of this until now.)
The English use of "late" in this context is highly idiomatic, too.

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Does the equivalent of feu/late in other languages behave like that?

Not in German, where we use unremarkable past participles as
   Ihr verstorbener Vater
   also: verblichener, verschiedener, von uns gegangener

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
To go to your actual question, I think the usual expression in English
would be "the soon-to-be ex-president" rather than "the soon
ex-president". Naked "soon" sounds odd to me.

It's possible that naked "soon", to the degree that it is acceptable
for some speakers, is a clipping of "soon-to-be".

 feu in "feu votre père"
         where else would the [feu]  go?
_____________________  Didn't HenryV say  "happy few" ?
King Henry V does indeed say "we happy few" in his famous Saint
Crispin's Day speech  from William Shakespeare's play  "Henry V".
The word feu in the phrase "feu votre père" is an adjective that means
"late" or "deceased". It is used to refer to someone who has died.
          The word feu is derived from the Latin word felix, which
means "happy" or "fortunate". This may seem like an odd connection,
but it is thought that the word felix was originally used to describe
someone who had died a good death, and that it later came to be used
more generally to refer to anyone who had died.

These days i get lots of false-factoids from my AI-assistant
(Bard.Google.com).

in English, "the late" is only used for ppl who passed recently
(not from Bard.Google.com).

Post by guido wugi
Where did you get that from? Its origin is pop. Lat. *fatudus, "fated",
fate-accomplished, from fatum, fate.

The use of feu before a noun to indicate that the person referred to
is deceased is a common feature of French. For example, you might say
"feu le président" to refer to the late president. This usage is
similar to the English use of the word "the late" before a name.
Le feu Président de la République (The late President of the Republic)
Ma feue grand-mère (My late grandmother)
Feu mon ami (My late friend)

Feu la reine.
La feue reine.
"wijlen", from "een wijl", a while,
Wijlen de koningin.
Wijlen mijn moeder.