[pass over in(with) silence] ------- expression from Greek?

[HenHanna]

in Cicero's speech (62 B.C.) Pro Sulla (Section 62.1)

"Ac ne haec quidem P. Sullae mihi
videtur silentio praetereunda esse virtus"

("And even this virtue of Publius Sulla
seems to me to [be one which] ought not
to be passed by in/with silence").


-- pass over in silence
-- pass over with silence ------- is this expression from Greek?

[Ed Cryer]

 in Cicero's speech (62 B.C.)        Pro Sulla  (Section 62.1)
        "Ac ne haec quidem P. Sullae mihi
            videtur silentio praetereunda esse virtus"
        ("And even this virtue of Publius Sulla
           seems to me to [be one which]   ought not
                   to be passed by  in/with silence").
-- pass over in silence
-- pass over with silence  ------- is this expression from Greek?

σιωπῇ in Greek; dative case, Greek having no ab

[micky]

In alt.usage.english, on Sat, 24 Aug 2024 16:42:50 -0700, HenHanna

Post by HenHanna
in Cicero's speech (62 B.C.) Pro Sulla (Section 62.1)
"Ac ne haec quidem P. Sullae mihi
videtur silentio praetereunda esse virtus"
("And even this virtue of Publius Sulla
seems to me to [be one which] ought not
to be passed by in/with silence").
-- pass over in silence
-- pass over with silence ------- is this expression from Greek?

I guess I never do hear the second one but since authors and speakers
like to turn a phrase, even if it exists in Greek, wouldn't it arise in
English just because it makes sense, equally with in or with?

[Pascal Stumpf]

Post by HenHanna
in Cicero's speech (62 B.C.) Pro Sulla (Section 62.1)
"Ac ne haec quidem P. Sullae mihi
videtur silentio praetereunda esse virtus"
("And even this virtue of Publius Sulla
seems to me to [be one which] ought not
to be passed by in/with silence").
-- pass over in silence
-- pass over with silence ------- is this expression from Greek?

'silentio' is, I think, best explained as dativus finalis, i.e. "his virtue
is not to be passed over, such that silence may befall it". Alternatively,
a dativus commodi: "be passed over to silence".

There is indeed a common Greek expression σιωπῇ, but simply assuming a
borrowing of the Greek idiom does not do Cicero justice in this case.

[Ed Cryer]

Post by Pascal Stumpf

Post by HenHanna
in Cicero's speech (62 B.C.) Pro Sulla (Section 62.1)
"Ac ne haec quidem P. Sullae mihi
videtur silentio praetereunda esse virtus"
("And even this virtue of Publius Sulla
seems to me to [be one which] ought not
to be passed by in/with silence").
-- pass over in silence
-- pass over with silence ------- is this expression from Greek?

'silentio' is, I think, best explained as dativus finalis, i.e. "his virtue
is not to be passed over, such that silence may befall it". Alternatively,
a dativus commodi: "be passed over to silence".
There is indeed a common Greek expression σιωπῇ, but simply assuming a
borrowing of the Greek idiom does not do Cicero justice in this case.

No, no, no. You've completely misunderstood the Latin ablative.
Grammarians love to split the usages; ablative of manner, ablative of
time, ablative of accompanying circumstances.
You find them all over the place in classical Latin; especially the
ablative absolute.

Would you baulk at "silentio facto" or "silentio obtento"?
No.
Or "silentio orto"?
No

What you're witnessing with the simple "silentio" is a kind of
foreshortened ablative absolute. That's how it sounded in native ears.
The ablative case cuts it off from the main clause structure.
Now, the verb to be "esse" had no present participle, but that's what
native ears heard; s

[Aidan Kehoe]

Post by Pascal Stumpf

Post by HenHanna
in Cicero's speech (62 B.C.) Pro Sulla (Section 62.1)
"Ac ne haec quidem P. Sullae mihi
videtur silentio praetereunda esse virtus"
("And even this virtue of Publius Sulla
seems to me to [be one which] ought not
to be passed by in/with silence").
-- pass over in silence
-- pass over with silence ------- is this expression from Greek?

'silentio' is, I think, best explained as dativus finalis, i.e. "his virtue
is not to be passed over, such that silence may befall it". Alternatively,
a dativus commodi: "be passed over to silence".
There is indeed a common Greek expression σιωπῇ, but simply assuming a
borrowing of the Greek idiom does not do Cicero justice in this case.

Pascal’s Greek was not encoded with the appropriate MIME type. It should read:

“There is indeed a common Greek expression σιωπῇ, but simply assuming a
borrowing of the Greek idiom does not do Cicero justice in this case.”

(sigma, iota, omega, pi, eta with perispomeni and ypogegrammeni).