Etymology of Arabic/Farsi/Dari/Urdu/Hindi "ketab" ("kitab")?

[Wes]

I've been studying the "Eastern Indo-European languages" for a while
and recently began picking up some Arabic, in part because so many
Arabic words have drifted into Farsi Persian (e.g. Arabic faHm -->
Farsi fahmidan "understand"; su'aal --> so'al "question"; mashghool
--> mashqul "busy, working"), as well as into Urdu to a lesser extent,
that the vocabulary isn't too difficult from a foundation in Farsi.

However, I also recall that there are some cases in which the Persian
(or Hindi/Urdu) word has drifted westward into Arabic and sometimes
thence into European languages, like the roots of English "orange,"
"check/chess," "rice (into Arabic from Persian, either directly or via
Greek)" and "azure." So I was curious about the etymology of
"ketab/kitab," which means "book" in Arabic, Farsi, Dari, Urdu, and
Hindi alike. I originally thought this was an Arabic word that spread
eastward with the 7th-9th century Arab conquests (similar to the way
Norman French infused Middle English from the 11th century after the
Norman Conquest), but I remember reading that Hindi tends to borrow
vocabulary from Sanskrit far more than from Persian (the main language
of the ruling Mughals IIRC). Although Hindi did borrow *some* Farsi
words which may, in turn, have stemmed from Arabic originally.

Does anyone know if "ketab/kitab" diffused from West to East, or from
East to West? Also, is there any handy reference (doesn't have to be
in English) that gives some comparative linguistics on Arabic
vis-a-vis the Eastern IE languages that it influenced/was influenced
by? Thanks in advance.

Wes Ulm

[Yusuf B Gursey]

In sci.lang Wes <***@yahoo.com> wrote in <***@posting.google.com>:
: I've been studying the "Eastern Indo-European languages" for a while
: and recently began picking up some Arabic, in part because so many
: Arabic words have drifted into Farsi Persian (e.g. Arabic faHm -->
: Farsi fahmidan "understand"; su'aal --> so'al "question"; mashghool
: --> mashqul "busy, working"), as well as into Urdu to a lesser extent,

it's ma*sh**gh*u:l in persian. mashqul is Thackston's particular
transcription.


: that the vocabulary isn't too difficult from a foundation in Farsi.

: However, I also recall that there are some cases in which the Persian
: (or Hindi/Urdu) word has drifted westward into Arabic and sometimes
: thence into European languages, like the roots of English "orange,"
: "check/chess," "rice (into Arabic from Persian, either directly or via
: Greek)" and "azure." So I was curious about the etymology of
: "ketab/kitab," which means "book" in Arabic, Farsi, Dari, Urdu, and
: Hindi alike. I originally thought this was an Arabic word that spread
: eastward with the 7th-9th century Arab conquests (similar to the way
: Norman French infused Middle English from the 11th century after the
: Norman Conquest), but I remember reading that Hindi tends to borrow
: vocabulary from Sanskrit far more than from Persian (the main language
: of the ruling Mughals IIRC). Although Hindi did borrow *some* Farsi
: words which may, in turn, have stemmed from Arabic originally.

: Does anyone know if "ketab/kitab" diffused from West to East, or from

kita:b "book" is arabic. the "root" is found in other semitic languages.


: East to West? Also, is there any handy reference (doesn't have to be
: in English) that gives some comparative linguistics on Arabic
: vis-a-vis the Eastern IE languages that it influenced/was influenced
: by? Thanks in advance.

persian words in early arabic are dealt with in Jeffrey's "Foreign
Vocabulary of the Qur'an" Hava's dictionary has a list, and there is a
book in arabic "Arabized Persian Words".

any good persian dictionary like Steingass will give you arabic words in
persian, Steingass indicates persian words in arabic that have been
reborrowed (back-loans) as well.


: Wes Ulm

[Wes]

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
: I've been studying the "Eastern Indo-European languages" for a while
: and recently began picking up some Arabic, in part because so many
: Arabic words have drifted into Farsi Persian (e.g. Arabic faHm -->
: Farsi fahmidan "understand"; su'aal --> so'al "question"; mashghool
: --> mashqul "busy, working"), as well as into Urdu to a lesser extent,
it's ma*sh**gh*u:l in persian. mashqul is Thackston's particular
transcription.
: that the vocabulary isn't too difficult from a foundation in Farsi.
: However, I also recall that there are some cases in which the Persian
: (or Hindi/Urdu) word has drifted westward into Arabic and sometimes
: thence into European languages, like the roots of English "orange,"
: "check/chess," "rice (into Arabic from Persian, either directly or via
: Greek)" and "azure." So I was curious about the etymology of
: "ketab/kitab," which means "book" in Arabic, Farsi, Dari, Urdu, and
: Hindi alike. I originally thought this was an Arabic word that spread
: eastward with the 7th-9th century Arab conquests (similar to the way
: Norman French infused Middle English from the 11th century after the
: Norman Conquest), but I remember reading that Hindi tends to borrow
: vocabulary from Sanskrit far more than from Persian (the main language
: of the ruling Mughals IIRC). Although Hindi did borrow *some* Farsi
: words which may, in turn, have stemmed from Arabic originally.
: Does anyone know if "ketab/kitab" diffused from West to East, or from
kita:b "book" is arabic. the "root" is found in other semitic languages.

Interesting. So presumably this was one of the words that, upon
entering Persian from Arabic, was later adopted across many of the
Indian IE dialects during the Mughal period, then was retained by
Hindi after it became distinct from Urdu. Did Sanskrit have an
equivalent term for "book" that was displaced, or perhaps was the
specific form of "book" described by "kita:b" discrepant from the
"book" (maybe more like a "scripture"?) depicted by the closest
Sanskrit equivalent?

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
: East to West? Also, is there any handy reference (doesn't have to be
: in English) that gives some comparative linguistics on Arabic
: vis-a-vis the Eastern IE languages that it influenced/was influenced
: by? Thanks in advance.
persian words in early arabic are dealt with in Jeffrey's "Foreign
Vocabulary of the Qur'an" Hava's dictionary has a list, and there is a
book in arabic "Arabized Persian Words".
any good persian dictionary like Steingass will give you arabic words in
persian, Steingass indicates persian words in arabic that have been
reborrowed (back-loans) as well.

Excellent. Thanks for all the information.

Wes Ulm

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
: Wes Ulm

[M. Ranjit Mathews]

Post by Wes

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
: I've been studying the "Eastern Indo-European languages" for a while
: and recently began picking up some Arabic, in part because so many
: Arabic words have drifted into Farsi Persian (e.g. Arabic faHm -->
: Farsi fahmidan "understand"; su'aal --> so'al "question"; mashghool
: --> mashqul "busy, working"), as well as into Urdu to a lesser extent,
it's ma*sh**gh*u:l in persian. mashqul is Thackston's particular
transcription.
: that the vocabulary isn't too difficult from a foundation in Farsi.
: However, I also recall that there are some cases in which the Persian
: (or Hindi/Urdu) word has drifted westward into Arabic and sometimes
: thence into European languages, like the roots of English "orange,"
: "check/chess," "rice (into Arabic from Persian, either directly or via
: Greek)" and "azure." So I was curious about the etymology of
: "ketab/kitab," which means "book" in Arabic, Farsi, Dari, Urdu, and
: Hindi alike. I originally thought this was an Arabic word that spread
: eastward with the 7th-9th century Arab conquests (similar to the way
: Norman French infused Middle English from the 11th century after the
: Norman Conquest), but I remember reading that Hindi tends to borrow
: vocabulary from Sanskrit far more than from Persian (the main language
: of the ruling Mughals IIRC). Although Hindi did borrow *some* Farsi
: words which may, in turn, have stemmed from Arabic originally.
: Does anyone know if "ketab/kitab" diffused from West to East, or from
kita:b "book" is arabic. the "root" is found in other semitic languages.

Interesting. So presumably this was one of the words that, upon
entering Persian from Arabic, was later adopted across many of the
Indian IE dialects during the Mughal period, then was retained by
Hindi after it became distinct from Urdu. Did Sanskrit have an
equivalent term for "book" that was displaced, or perhaps was the
specific form of "book" described by "kita:b" discrepant from the
"book" (maybe more like a "scripture"?) depicted by the closest
Sanskrit equivalent?

Malayalam has the exact Sanskrit terms, pustakam and grantham.

In the more Sanskritsed dialects of Hindi:
pustak = book
granth = tome (might be scripture like Sikhs' "granth sahib" / "Adi
granth")

granth sahib = (the) master book - i.e., the book of books
adi granth = (the) prime book

Muslim dialects of Malayalam/ Hindi tend to use kitab in place of
pustakam/ pustak. The Malayalam word was borrowed directly from
Arabic, not via Persian.

[Wes]

Post by M. Ranjit Mathews

Post by Wes

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
: I've been studying the "Eastern Indo-European languages" for a while
: and recently began picking up some Arabic, in part because so many
: Arabic words have drifted into Farsi Persian (e.g. Arabic faHm -->
: Farsi fahmidan "understand"; su'aal --> so'al "question"; mashghool
: --> mashqul "busy, working"), as well as into Urdu to a lesser extent,
it's ma*sh**gh*u:l in persian. mashqul is Thackston's particular
transcription.
: that the vocabulary isn't too difficult from a foundation in Farsi.
: However, I also recall that there are some cases in which the Persian
: (or Hindi/Urdu) word has drifted westward into Arabic and sometimes
: thence into European languages, like the roots of English "orange,"
: "check/chess," "rice (into Arabic from Persian, either directly or via
: Greek)" and "azure." So I was curious about the etymology of
: "ketab/kitab," which means "book" in Arabic, Farsi, Dari, Urdu, and
: Hindi alike. I originally thought this was an Arabic word that spread
: eastward with the 7th-9th century Arab conquests (similar to the way
: Norman French infused Middle English from the 11th century after the
: Norman Conquest), but I remember reading that Hindi tends to borrow
: vocabulary from Sanskrit far more than from Persian (the main language
: of the ruling Mughals IIRC). Although Hindi did borrow *some* Farsi
: words which may, in turn, have stemmed from Arabic originally.
: Does anyone know if "ketab/kitab" diffused from West to East, or from
kita:b "book" is arabic. the "root" is found in other semitic languages.

Interesting. So presumably this was one of the words that, upon
entering Persian from Arabic, was later adopted across many of the
Indian IE dialects during the Mughal period, then was retained by
Hindi after it became distinct from Urdu. Did Sanskrit have an
equivalent term for "book" that was displaced, or perhaps was the
specific form of "book" described by "kita:b" discrepant from the
"book" (maybe more like a "scripture"?) depicted by the closest
Sanskrit equivalent?

Malayalam has the exact Sanskrit terms, pustakam and grantham.
pustak = book
granth = tome (might be scripture like Sikhs' "granth sahib" / "Adi
granth")
granth sahib = (the) master book - i.e., the book of books
adi granth = (the) prime book
Muslim dialects of Malayalam/ Hindi tend to use kitab in place of
pustakam/ pustak. The Malayalam word was borrowed directly from
Arabic, not via Persian.

Fascinating. IIRC Tagalog similarly incorporated many loanwords
directly from Arabic-- the Arab traders were probably doing business
throughout the East Indian archipelagos, though I'm not sure Tagalog
and Malayalam borrowed in vocabulary at the same time. Also, IIRC
Tagalog uses either the Spanish "libro" or I think a native word
("aklet" or "aklat") for the "book" concept instead of "kitab."

Thanks for all the details.

Wes Ulm

[M. Ranjit Mathews]

Post by Wes

Post by M. Ranjit Mathews

Post by Wes
Did Sanskrit have an
equivalent term for "book" that was displaced, or perhaps was the
specific form of "book" described by "kita:b" discrepant from the
"book" (maybe more like a "scripture"?) depicted by the closest
Sanskrit equivalent?

Malayalam has the exact Sanskrit terms, pustakam and grantham.
pustak = book
granth = tome (might be scripture like Sikhs' "granth sahib" / "Adi
granth")
granth sahib = (the) master book - i.e., the book of books
adi granth = (the) prime book
Muslim dialects of Malayalam/ Hindi tend to use kitab in place of
pustakam/ pustak. The Malayalam word was borrowed directly from
Arabic, not via Persian.

Fascinating. IIRC Tagalog similarly incorporated many loanwords
directly from Arabic-- the Arab traders were probably doing business
throughout the East Indian archipelagos, though I'm not sure Tagalog
and Malayalam borrowed in vocabulary at the same time.

Some of these "Arabs" trading in the East Indies were settled in
Kerala and were bilingual in Arabic and Malayalam. BTW, Arabic words
used in Muslim dialects are considered borrowings and therefore, kitab
does not appear in Malaylam dictionaries but does appear in Hindi
dictionaries. On the other hand, numerous Sanskrit words never used in
Malayalam speech do appear in Malayalam dictionaries by virtue of
their use in poetry written in MaNipRavALam (a highly Sanskritised
Malayalam used only by poets). This odd situation would be equivalent
to an American dictionary that includes the Latin vertu for being in
Chaucer's works but leaves out vamoose for being a Spanish word.

Post by Wes
Also, IIRC
Tagalog uses either the Spanish "libro" or I think a native word
("aklet" or "aklat") for the "book" concept instead of "kitab."

Ah! For some reason, it looks odd to me when Germans use bibliotheque
(meaning book-place) for a library of subroutines to be run on a
computer.

Post by Wes
Thanks for all the details.
Wes Ulm

[Wes]

Post by M. Ranjit Mathews
Ah! For some reason, it looks odd to me when Germans use bibliotheque
(meaning book-place) for a library of subroutines to be run on a
computer.

Hmmm... German uses "Bibliothek" to mean a library in general (I
presume borrowed from French, though perhaps straight from Latin). Is
the spelling for this programming term separate from the library word,
i.e. "bibliotheque" rather than "Bibliothek"? I'm thinking maybe that
some programmer just coined a term for library of subroutines from the
word for library in general, thus "Bibliothek" took on double duty
with a specialized application here. Although I agree, the whole
connotation of "Bibliothek" seems ostensibly a bit incongruous with
the notion of a subroutine library. I guess delving into words'
etymology is sometimes a bit like thinking about exactly where
McDonald's got those Chicken McNuggets from-- you wind up knowing a
bit more than perhaps you wanted to initially. ;)

Post by M. Ranjit Mathews

Post by Wes
Thanks for all the details.
Wes Ulm

Wes

[Wes]

Also, IIRC Tagalog uses either the Spanish "libro" or I think a native word
("aklet" or "aklat") for the "book" concept instead of "kitab."

I checked with my Filipina friend and it's definitely "aklat" and not
"aklet." In line with the Tagalog revival of recent years there may
be a slight preference for the native term, though my understanding is
that both the native and Spanish words are used in practice, and there
isn't too much aversion to the Spanish loanwords among Tagalog
speakers. The first Tagalog words we non-natives learn, after all,
are often "kumusta ka na," which so patently resembles "como esta"
that we're liable to swerve into Spanish mode if not too careful. :)

Thanks for all the details.
Wes Ulm

Wes Ulm

[Yusuf B Gursey]

Post by Wes

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
kita:b "book" is arabic. the "root" is found in other semitic languages.

Interesting. So presumably this was one of the words that, upon
entering Persian from Arabic, was later adopted across many of the
Indian IE dialects during the Mughal period, then was retained by
Hindi after it became distinct from Urdu. Did Sanskrit have an
equivalent term for "book" that was displaced, or perhaps was the
specific form of "book" described by "kita:b" discrepant from the
"book" (maybe more like a "scripture"?) depicted by the closest
Sanskrit equivalent?

kita:b is mentioned in the Qur'an (with the definite article,
al-kita:b refering to the Qur'an itself, in late verses presumabely
dating to a period in which some sort of writing down was taking
place). so the word was taken up by most languages with muslim
speakers and writers, even if they had a previous word for "book"
(like old turkic bitig) and it frequently displaced the native word.
Indian muslim scholars, like those of other major muslim peoples,
eventually studied arabic independently, but usually used
pronounciation rules (in the Indian north, and otrher muslims in the
persified cultural sphere) based on persian usage.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

In sci.lang Yusuf B Gursey <***@theworld.com> wrote in <cae6g8$d1k$***@pcls4.std.com>:
: In sci.lang Wes <***@yahoo.com> wrote in <***@posting.google.com>:

: : Does anyone know if "ketab/kitab" diffused from West to East, or from

: kita:b "book" is arabic. the "root" is found in other semitic languages.


from "to write" (the meaning it acquired after writing was invented, of
course).

: : East to West? Also, is there any handy reference (doesn't have to be
: : in English) that gives some comparative linguistics on Arabic
: : vis-a-vis the Eastern IE languages that it influenced/was influenced
: : by? Thanks in advance.

: persian words in early arabic are dealt with in Jeffrey's "Foreign

medieval commentators (the more enlightened ones) recognized the presence
of persian origin (and other languages) words in classical arabic and the
qur'an. among them Suyuti (suyu:Tiyy), and some were persians themselves.

: Vocabulary of the Qur'an" Hava's dictionary has a list, and there is a
: book in arabic "Arabized Persian Words".


this one:

Kitab al-alfaz al-Farisiyah al-mu`arrabah / ta'lif al-Sayyid Addi Shir.

Author: Scher, Addai, 1867-1916.
Uniform title: [Alfaz al-Farisiyah al-mu`arrabah]
Title: Kitab al-alfaz al-Farisiyah al-mu`arrabah / ta'lif al-Sayyid Addi
Shir.
Published: Bayrut : al-Matba`ah al-Kathulikiyah lil-Aba' al-Yasu`iyin,
1908.
Description: 194 p. ; 25 cm.

here are others:

Persische Lehnw�rter im Arabischen / Asya Asbaghi.

Author: Asbaghi, Asya.
Title: Persische Lehnw�rter im Arabischen / Asya Asbaghi.
Published: Wiesbaden : O. Harrasowitz, 1988.
Description: xix, 286 p. ; 24 cm.

this one includes turkish as well:


al-Dakhil fi al-Farisiyah wa-al-`Arabiyah wa-al-Turkiyah : mu`jam...

Author: Samarra'i, Ibrahim.
Title: al-Dakhil fi al-Farisiyah wa-al-`Arabiyah wa-al-Turkiyah : mu`jam
wa-dirasah / Ibrahim al-Samarra'i.
Edition: al-Tab`ah 1.
Published: Bayrut : Maktabat Lubnan Nashirun, 1997.
Description: 10, 213 p. ; 25 cm.


this old one says "foreign" (but "persian" was usually understood)

Risalah fi tahqiq ta`rib al-kalimah al-A`jamiyah / ta'lif Ahmad ibn...

Author: Kemalpasazade, 1468 or 9-1534.
Title: Risalah fi tahqiq ta`rib al-kalimah al-A`jamiyah / ta'lif Ahmad ibn
Sulayman al-ma`ruf bi-Ibn Kamal Pasha al-Wazir ; dabt wa-tahqiq Muhammad
Sawa`i.
Edition: al-Tab`ah 1.
Published: Dimashq : al-Ma`had al-`Ilmi al-Faransi lil-Dirasat
al-`Arabiyah bi-Dimashq, 1991.
Description: 172, 13 p. : facsims. ; 24 cm.


I ommitted books on specific colloquials.


: any good persian dictionary like Steingass will give you arabic words in
: persian, Steingass indicates persian words in arabic that have been
: reborrowed (back-loans) as well.

some with doublets like finja:n (arabized) and pinga:n (persian)

: : Wes Ulm


the word for "religion" di:n is of middle persian origin, though it has
come to be also associated in the minds of arabic speakers with semitic
di:n "judgement" or "debt".

some persian words have been borrowed more than once in different periods
like Ta:zaj (middle persian *ta:zag ) "fresh" ; modern arabic ta:za(t)
(invariable as to gender) from new persian / farsi ta:za (perhpas through
turkish) also "fresh".

the current crop of Iraqi leaders includes persian origin words in their
names (through turkish):

al-Yawar / al-Yawer i.e. al-ya:war / al-ya:wir "Aide-de-Camp"
(through ottoman turkish ya^ver , pers. ya:var)

al-Pachachi al-pa:ch*a-*ch*i: (orthogr: al-ba:ja(h)-ji:) pa:*ch*a "(lower)
leg, shank" (in this case: of mutton) + turkish suffix of
proffessions, thus "seller of soup with leg of mutton (and tripe)"
(through turkish / iraqi turkmen)

al-Chalabi "urban gentleman" (or as I say "urban bigwig")

(orthogr. al-jalabi:)

*ch*alabi: has a long, convolulted history: aramaic Sali:ba: "Cross" >
persian *ch*ali:pa: "Cross" > turkish *ch*alap , (old anatolian possible
variant *ch*elep). + persian suffix -i: (or arabic -iyy) turkish *ch*elebi
"sufi mystic" (probably from earlier meaning "priest"), at one period also
"educated urban gentleman"

(the above etymology is somewhat controversial, but the best one around)

[Yusuf B Gursey]

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
: : Does anyone know if "ketab/kitab" diffused from West to East, or from
: kita:b "book" is arabic. the "root" is found in other semitic languages.
from "to write" (the meaning it acquired after writing was invented, of
course).

the original meaning miht have been something like the meaning
attested in medieval bedouin arabic "draw or sew together, enjoin
(i.e. as in letters)" (see BDB Hebrew - English Lexicon).

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
: : East to West? Also, is there any handy reference (doesn't have to be
: : in English) that gives some comparative linguistics on Arabic
: : vis-a-vis the Eastern IE languages that it influenced/was influenced
: : by? Thanks in advance.
: persian words in early arabic are dealt with in Jeffrey's "Foreign
medieval commentators (the more enlightened ones) recognized the presence
of persian origin (and other languages) words in classical arabic and the
qur'an. among them Suyuti (suyu:Tiyy), and some were persians themselves.
: Vocabulary of the Qur'an" Hava's dictionary has a list, and there is a
: book in arabic "Arabized Persian Words".
: any good persian dictionary like Steingass will give you arabic words in

also try Platts' Hindustani - English, which has good etymological
information.

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
: persian, Steingass indicates persian words in arabic that have been
: reborrowed (back-loans) as well.
some with doublets like finja:n (arabized) and pinga:n (persian)
: : Wes Ulm
the word for "religion" di:n is of middle persian origin, though it has

also ta:j "crown" (attested early for arabic) from persian ta:g

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
come to be also associated in the minds of arabic speakers with semitic
di:n "judgement" or "debt".
some persian words have been borrowed more than once in different periods
like Ta:zaj (middle persian *ta:zag ) "fresh" ; modern arabic ta:za(t)
(invariable as to gender) from new persian / farsi ta:za (perhpas through
turkish) also "fresh".
the current crop of Iraqi leaders includes persian origin words in their

al-Chadirchi al-*ch*a:dir*ch*i: (orthog. al-ja:dirji:) def. article +
turkish for "tentmaker". "tent" being *ch*adIr (turkish). the further
etymology is controversial. it may be from persian (found in middle
persian) with an Indo-Iranian etymology and sanskrit equivlanets or
origins or it may be a genuine turkic word.

al-Kut i.e. al-ku:t name of 2 cities in Iraq persian ku:t ko:t "fort"
. the word may be indic in origin (fogot the reference for this last
part).

the diminutive gives al-Kuwait i.e. al-kuwayt .

Kut (Amarna) was the scene of famous WWI battle(s).