Turkish colours

[Javier BF]

Hello,

I'd like to know the etymology of Turkish colour names "lacivert"
(dark blue) and "nefti" (dark green). Etymologies for other colours
would be welcome as well ("turkuaz" looks like a French loanword and
"turuncu" seems to have something to do with "toronja" -grapefruit-,
am I right?).

Is there a difference between "yeSil" and "yeflil" or are both
alternative versions of the same word? I've also found several words
for white (beyaz, ak), black (siyah, kara), red (kIrmIzI, kIzIl, al),
purple (mor, eflatun, lila) and brown (kahverengi, kastane, bordo).
Are those interchangeable, separate colours or varieties of one same
colour (my wild guess is that "lila" and "bordo" are somewhat like
English lilac -light purple- and maroon*, but I've also found
languages that use "lila" for purple in general)? Are the two whites
and the two blacks like Latin albus/candidus and ater/niger?

What are the common Altaic colour words? What do Turkish speakers
generally consider as basic colours? What Turkish colours belong in
the rainbow? What non-basic colours are most likely to spring to the
mind of a Turkish speaker when asked for an extended list of Turkish
colours (like English "azure", "cyan", "turquoise", "navy", "beige",
"khaki", "olive", "maroon", "puce", "crimson", "lilac", "mauve",
"magenta"...)?

Thank you a lot in advance,
Javier

(*) As a side question for English-speakers, I've found definitions of
"maroon" and "puce" that seem to overlap and point to the same actual
colour or colour range (what in Spanish we call "granate"). Do people
consider them alternative names for the same colour range between red,
brown and purple or do they make a difference (my wild guess would be
that maroon is redder/browner and puce is purpler)? Would you classify
them as a kind of brown, purple, red or neither of them?

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Javier BF
(*) As a side question for English-speakers, I've found definitions of
"maroon" and "puce" that seem to overlap and point to the same actual
colour or colour range (what in Spanish we call "granate"). Do people
consider them alternative names for the same colour range between red,
brown and purple or do they make a difference (my wild guess would be
that maroon is redder/browner and puce is purpler)? Would you classify
them as a kind of brown, purple, red or neither of them?

"Maroon" is a common color name, "puce" is quite rare (very likely
because it sounds like "puke." Yes, Maroon is a brown/red color (leather
comes in maroon), puce is an ugly purply brown.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

Post by Javier BF
Hello,
I'd like to know the etymology of Turkish colour names "lacivert"

persian la^ceverd (la:javard) "lapis lazuli"

Post by Javier BF
(dark blue) and "nefti" (dark green). Etymologies for other colours

persian nefti^ (nafti:) from neft (naft) "naphtha" (from greek).

Post by Javier BF
would be welcome as well ("turkuaz" looks like a French loanword and

yes.

Post by Javier BF
"turuncu" seems to have something to do with "toronja" -grapefruit-,

which is from persian turunci^ (an early l.w.)
from turunc (turunj) "citron".

Post by Javier BF
am I right?).

there is also portakalrengi "orange colored" portakal is "orange"
from "Portugal" (the country is called "Portekiz").

Post by Javier BF
Is there a difference between "yeSil" and "yeflil" or are both

(green)

I haven't heard the word "yeflil" at all, and I am very familiar
with the language.

an archaic variant of ye$il is ya$Il so it connects with ya$ "moist"
(young, fresh vegetation is moist and green).

Bazin further connects it with ya$ "age" (biological),
timekeeping in the Old Turkic period was reckoned by the
"greening of the vegetation" (acc. to a Chinese source).

Post by Javier BF
alternative versions of the same word? I've also found several words
for white (beyaz, ak), black (siyah, kara), red (kIrmIzI, kIzIl, al),

"ak" and "kara" are turkic and have a wide variety of common
secondary meanings, so "beyaz" (form arabic baya:D "whiteness")
and "siyah" (from persian siya:h) are used when the color is
explictly meant. "ak" and "kara" may also be used as "bright,
light colored. so also with "kIzIl" vs. kIrmIzI (arabic qirmiziyy,
form qirmiz, "kermes" an insect from which the dye is made).
"al" describes (rosy, healthy) cheeks (kIzIl fevery, kIrmIzI
embarrasment), and "rosy, pink" (but pembe is normally used for
"pink") seems to be the original meaning (11th cent. Kashgari)
of "al". "bright red" is more usually "kIzIl" while "kIrmIzI"
is more non-descript.

in terms of flags "al bayrak" has traditionaly (attested 11th cent.
Kashgari, 15th cent. ottoman, describing an earlier event) been
used for the turkish flag, "kIzIl" is now used for communist flags
(though a Soviet Azeri song had used "al" for their flag). "kIrmIzI"
could be used for a signal flag.

Post by Javier BF
purple (mor, eflatun, lila) and brown (kahverengi, kastane, bordo).

mor is turkic (in spite of Doerfer in TMEN). efla^tun refers to
"lilac colored" (I don't know the etymology, other than its
perso-arabic, "Eflatun" is the arabized name of Plato, perhaps
refering graeco-roman "royal purple"???). "lila" is generally not
used. leylak is turkish for "lilac" (plant) from Arabic (probably
ultimately persian), english seems to have got it from spanish).


"kahverengi" means "coffee colored" (normal word for "brown")
"kesta^ne" is "chestnut colored" (light brown).

bordo is "claret-red" and is usually used of fabrics, dyes
(from French "Bordeaux")

turkic for "brown" is yag~Iz but nowadays it is used only for
complexions (along with arabic origin esmer , though yag~Iz
usually indicates something darker) and for horses.

Post by Javier BF
Are those interchangeable, separate colours or varieties of one same

see above

Post by Javier BF
colour (my wild guess is that "lila" and "bordo" are somewhat like
English lilac -light purple- and maroon*, but I've also found

yes.

Post by Javier BF
languages that use "lila" for purple in general)? Are the two whites
and the two blacks like Latin albus/candidus and ater/niger?

as I said, "siyah" and "beyaz" are straightforward colors,
"kara" and "ak" are burdened with secondary meanings.

kara (also yag~IZ) also denoted "strong" and "common people"
(or lesser aristocracy; they depend on their strength or military
prowess). "ak" the aristocracy.

Post by Javier BF
What are the common Altaic colour words? What do Turkish speakers

the turkic words have not changed much since Old Turkic
(chuvash is usually recognisable as well). many (but not
all) of these have corrspondences (many recognisable)
in Mongolian, but "Altaic" (incl. Tungusic and possibly
Korean and Japanese) is tough.

Post by Javier BF
generally consider as basic colours? What Turkish colours belong in

what do you mean by "basic colors"? in turkish (turkic) lore
kara, go"k, kIzIl, ak, sarI enter frequently. go"k is the old word
for "blue" (now knwon as such from old poetry), now "sky" (it was
an epithet of the Sacred Sky and the Deity, as the old religion
was abandonded it came to mean "sky", Te*ngr*i (TanrI) meaning
"God" exclusively). sarI is yellow. in that order they had
represented the cardinal points (North, East, South, West, center)
and also enter into compounds and epithets frequently.

turkish normally uses mavi for "blue" (based on arabic ma:' "water").

Post by Javier BF
the rainbow? What non-basic colours are most likely to spring to the
mind of a Turkish speaker when asked for an extended list of Turkish
colours (like English "azure", "cyan", "turquoise", "navy", "beige",
"khaki", "olive", "maroon", "puce", "crimson", "lilac", "mauve",

"khaki" in turkish is ha^ki (both from persian xa:ki: "earth colored")
"olive" is zeytu^ni^ (zeytu^n is the proper arabic of turkish "zeytin"
"olive (fruit)"). bej is used for "beige".

"nil" (persian "ni:l") is "indigo" (poetic), "kehribar" is
"amber" (mineral and color).

menek$e is "violet" (flower) is also used for the color,
menek$e (rengi).

kIr is "gray" for hair, boz is normally used for horses and other
animals. gri (from french) is the color (in general)

mor and boz may have some relation, mor < bor , boz < *bor';
acc. to Sevortyan ; bo:r is "reddish" in Turkmen; while Doerfer
tries to connect mor with greek moron (a flower). m < b before r
is possible in turkic but rare in anatolian turkish (perhaps the
greek word influenced it??)


turkish is quite rich in color names, and borrows quite a bit to
enrich it.

turkish also adds quite a long list of inventive coinages
such as:

balrengi "honeycolored"
limonku"fu" "lemon mold" (a shade of green)
kavunic,i "inside of a melon" (a shade of light orange)
kemik rengi "bone colored" (off-white)
sakIzrengi (gum colored, off-white)
kUlrengi ("ash colored" shade of gray)
dumanrengi ("smoke colored" shade of gray).

and many more along these lines.

Post by Javier BF
"magenta"...)?
Thank you a lot in advance,
Javier
(*) As a side question for English-speakers, I've found definitions of
"maroon" and "puce" that seem to overlap and point to the same actual
colour or colour range (what in Spanish we call "granate"). Do people
consider them alternative names for the same colour range between red,
brown and purple or do they make a difference (my wild guess would be
that maroon is redder/browner and puce is purpler)? Would you classify
them as a kind of brown, purple, red or neither of them?

[Jacques Guy]

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
"kesta^ne" is "chestnut colored" (light brown).

It looks suspiciously like "castaña" (chestnut) =>
French "châtaigne" (chestnut) and "châtain"
(light brown, of hair only).

[Yusuf B Gursey]

In sci.lang Jacques Guy <***@alphalink.com.au> wrote in <***@alphalink.com.au>:
: Yusuf B Gursey wrote:

:> "kesta^ne" is "chestnut colored" (light brown).

: It looks suspiciously like "casta�a" (chestnut) =>
: French "ch�taigne" (chestnut) and "ch�tain"
: (light brown, of hair only).

the turkish word is from (modern) greek kastania . Eren "kestane" says
that the greek word is of Armenian origin, kask "chestnut", kaskeni
"chestnut tree". the european words are related.

turkish seems to have made it persian sounding, though it is not persian.

[Douglas G. Kilday]

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
:> "kesta^ne" is "chestnut colored" (light brown).
: It looks suspiciously like "castaña" (chestnut) =>
: French "châtaigne" (chestnut) and "châtain"
: (light brown, of hair only).
the turkish word is from (modern) greek kastania . Eren "kestane" says
that the greek word is of Armenian origin, kask "chestnut", kaskeni
"chestnut tree". the european words are related.

The Romance words are from Latin <castanea>, which denotes both the tree (in
Columella) and the nut (in Vergil). This is the feminine of an adjective
borrowed from Greek <kastáneios> 'pertaining to the chestnut-tree', from
<kástanos> (fem.) 'chestnut-tree'; several variants are found with the same
root. The Greek word can hardly be of Armenian origin. Several places around
the Aegean, such as Kastanaia in Magnesia, were named after their abundance
of chestnuts. It is ridiculous to suggest that the early Greeks had to go to
Armenia to find a word for a local tree. Instead, both the Armenian and
Greek roots are very likely of Mediterranean substratal origin. Greek has
some other non-IE phytonyms, such as <rháphanos> (fem.) 'cabbage', with the
same ending.

Gaulish had a word *<cassinos> 'oak' appearing in Cassinomagus, a town of
the Lemovices, and Gallo-Latin <cassanus> is well attested in place-names:
Cassaniola 844, ad Cassanos 878, Cassaniolus 886, ad Grandes Cassanos 993.
The Gaulish word is, of course, the source of French <chêne> 'oak'. The oak
and chestnut are both large cupuliferae, so the Gaulish oak-word may well be
a Mediterranean congener of the Aegeo-Armenian chestnut-word.

Hesychius glosses "káston . xúlon, Athamânes" i.e. "the Athamanians (called)
wood <káston>". The Athamanians, who occupied a district of Aetolia adjacent
to Epirus, were already extinct as a nationality by Strabo's time. A working
hypothesis is that they preserved a word borrowed from a Mediterranean term
for 'hardwood', */kast-/, which had a derivative */kastan-/ 'hardwood tree',
the latter coming to denote 'chestnut' in one area and 'oak' in another.

DGK

[Uno Hu]

Post by Douglas G. Kilday

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
:> "kesta^ne" is "chestnut colored" (light brown).
: It looks suspiciously like "castaña" (chestnut) =>
: French "châtaigne" (chestnut) and "châtain"
: (light brown, of hair only).
the turkish word is from (modern) greek kastania . Eren "kestane" says
that the greek word is of Armenian origin, kask "chestnut", kaskeni
"chestnut tree". the european words are related.

The Romance words are from Latin <castanea>, which denotes both the tree (in
Columella) and the nut (in Vergil). This is the feminine of an adjective
borrowed from Greek <kastáneios> 'pertaining to the chestnut-tree', from
<kástanos> (fem.) 'chestnut-tree'; several variants are found with the same
root. The Greek word can hardly be of Armenian origin. Several places around
the Aegean, such as Kastanaia in Magnesia, were named after their abundance
of chestnuts. It is ridiculous to suggest that the early Greeks had to go to
Armenia to find a word for a local tree. Instead, both the Armenian and
Greek roots are very likely of Mediterranean substratal origin. Greek has
some other non-IE phytonyms, such as <rháphanos> (fem.) 'cabbage', with the
same ending.
Gaulish had a word *<cassinos> 'oak' appearing in Cassinomagus, a town of
Cassaniola 844, ad Cassanos 878, Cassaniolus 886, ad Grandes Cassanos 993.
The Gaulish word is, of course, the source of French <chêne> 'oak'. The oak
and chestnut are both large cupuliferae, so the Gaulish oak-word may well be
a Mediterranean congener of the Aegeo-Armenian chestnut-word.
Hesychius glosses "káston . xúlon, Athamânes" i.e. "the Athamanians (called)
wood <káston>". The Athamanians, who occupied a district of Aetolia adjacent
to Epirus, were already extinct as a nationality by Strabo's time. A working
hypothesis is that they preserved a word borrowed from a Mediterranean term
for 'hardwood', */kast-/, which had a derivative */kastan-/ 'hardwood tree',
the latter coming to denote 'chestnut' in one area and 'oak' in another.
DGK

Latvian: kastanis; 'chestnut'
Lithuanian: kastonas; 'chestnut'

Baltic not Mediterranean.

Uno Hu

[Douglas G. Kilday]

Post by Uno Hu

Post by Douglas G. Kilday

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
:> "kesta^ne" is "chestnut colored" (light brown).
: It looks suspiciously like "castaña" (chestnut) =>
: French "châtaigne" (chestnut) and "châtain"
: (light brown, of hair only).
the turkish word is from (modern) greek kastania . Eren "kestane" says
that the greek word is of Armenian origin, kask "chestnut", kaskeni
"chestnut tree". the european words are related.

The Romance words are from Latin <castanea>, which denotes both the tree (in
Columella) and the nut (in Vergil). This is the feminine of an adjective
borrowed from Greek <kastáneios> 'pertaining to the chestnut-tree', from
<kástanos> (fem.) 'chestnut-tree'; several variants are found with the same
root. The Greek word can hardly be of Armenian origin. Several places around
the Aegean, such as Kastanaia in Magnesia, were named after their abundance
of chestnuts. It is ridiculous to suggest that the early Greeks had to go to
Armenia to find a word for a local tree. Instead, both the Armenian and
Greek roots are very likely of Mediterranean substratal origin. Greek has
some other non-IE phytonyms, such as <rháphanos> (fem.) 'cabbage', with the
same ending.
Gaulish had a word *<cassinos> 'oak' appearing in Cassinomagus, a town of
Cassaniola 844, ad Cassanos 878, Cassaniolus 886, ad Grandes Cassanos 993.
The Gaulish word is, of course, the source of French <chêne> 'oak'. The oak
and chestnut are both large cupuliferae, so the Gaulish oak-word may well be
a Mediterranean congener of the Aegeo-Armenian chestnut-word.
Hesychius glosses "káston . xúlon, Athamânes" i.e. "the Athamanians (called)
wood <káston>". The Athamanians, who occupied a district of Aetolia adjacent
to Epirus, were already extinct as a nationality by Strabo's time. A working
hypothesis is that they preserved a word borrowed from a Mediterranean term
for 'hardwood', */kast-/, which had a derivative */kastan-/ 'hardwood tree',
the latter coming to denote 'chestnut' in one area and 'oak' in another.

Latvian: kastanis; 'chestnut'
Lithuanian: kastonas; 'chestnut'
Baltic not Mediterranean.

Those Baltic words are probably loanwords from medieval Latin, either
directly or through an intermediate language such as Middle Low German,
whose endings have been reshaped. Related northern European words for
'chestnut', such as German <Kastanie>, Norw./Swed. <kastanje>, Finn.
<kastanja>, are obvious borrowings from Latin. Russian <kas^tán>, as well,
must be a historical borrowing; if it were ancient, it would have /o/'s
instead of /a/'s, like the word for 'hemp': Russ. <konopl'á>, but OHG
<hanaf>, Pers. <kanab>, Greek <kánnabis> (probably borrowed from Scythian).

And the Latin for 'chestnut' is borrowed from Greek, so this is still a
Mediterranean word.

[Keith GOERINGER]

Post by Uno Hu
Latvian: kastanis; 'chestnut'
Lithuanian: kastonas; 'chestnut'
Baltic not Mediterranean.
Uno Hu

Congratulations! With this ridiculous assertion, you have made it into
my kill file! (Actually, it's this plus a few others...if there had
been a sign that you were joking, I might have...) Ah, well. Buh-bye.

[benlizross]

Post by Yusuf B Gursey

Post by Javier BF
Hello,
I'd like to know the etymology of Turkish colour names "lacivert"

persian la^ceverd (la:javard) "lapis lazuli"

Post by Javier BF
(dark blue) and "nefti" (dark green). Etymologies for other colours

persian nefti^ (nafti:) from neft (naft) "naphtha" (from greek).

But my COD says the Greek word is "of Oriental origin", so could not its
actual source be somewhere in the region famous for natural exudations
of the stuff?
...

Post by Yusuf B Gursey

Post by Javier BF
purple (mor, eflatun, lila) and brown (kahverengi, kastane, bordo).

mor is turkic (in spite of Doerfer in TMEN). efla^tun refers to
"lilac colored" (I don't know the etymology, other than its
perso-arabic, "Eflatun" is the arabized name of Plato, perhaps
refering graeco-roman "royal purple"???). "lila" is generally not
used. leylak is turkish for "lilac" (plant) from Arabic (probably
ultimately persian), english seems to have got it from spanish).

"lila" could well be a recent borrowing of the French form of this name

Ross Clark

[Yusuf B Gursey]

In sci.lang benlizross <***@ihug.co.nz> wrote in <***@ihug.co.nz>:
: Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
:>
:> On 24 Dec 2003 10:20:45 -0800, ***@hotmail.com (Javier BF) wrote:
:>
:> >Hello,
:> >
:> >I'd like to know the etymology of Turkish colour names "lacivert"
:>
:> persian la^ceverd (la:javard) "lapis lazuli"
:>
:> >(dark blue) and "nefti" (dark green). Etymologies for other colours
:>
:> persian nefti^ (nafti:) from neft (naft) "naphtha" (from greek).

: But my COD says the Greek word is "of Oriental origin", so could not its
: actual source be somewhere in the region famous for natural exudations
: of the stuff?


interesting.

:>
: ...

:> >purple (mor, eflatun, lila) and brown (kahverengi, kastane, bordo).
:>
:> mor is turkic (in spite of Doerfer in TMEN). efla^tun refers to
:> "lilac colored" (I don't know the etymology, other than its
:> perso-arabic, "Eflatun" is the arabized name of Plato, perhaps
:> refering graeco-roman "royal purple"???). "lila" is generally not
:> used. leylak is turkish for "lilac" (plant) from Arabic (probably
:> ultimately persian), english seems to have got it from spanish).

: "lila" could well be a recent borrowing of the French form of this name

it's not attested, I don't know about it, my folks who are fluent in
french don't know about it in turkish, and freely borrowing from french is
no longer fashionable. it must have extremely limited circulation (a
lipstick vendor unsure of the translation??), if found at all.


other words expressing "purple" are erguvani^ (erguva^ni^) from erguvan
"Judas tree, redbud" persian ar*gh*ava:n ; and patlIcan rengi "eggplant
colored" (dark purple) < persian ba:dinga:n

: Ross Clark

[Javier BF]

Many thanks for the extensive reply.

Post by Yusuf B Gursey

Post by Javier BF
I'd like to know the etymology of Turkish colour names "lacivert"

persian la^ceverd (la:javard) "lapis lazuli"

Post by Javier BF
(dark blue) and "nefti" (dark green).

persian nefti^ (nafti:) from neft (naft) "naphtha" (from greek).

Is "lapis lazuli" also called "lacivert" in Turkish?
Are those colours used in Persian too or were they an
invention of Turkish? How common are those colours in
Turkish? ("nefti" strikes me particularly, since neither
in Spanish, French or English I'm aware of a specific
name for dark green aside from "bottle/forest green",
and especially since English stock of colour names
seems to be bottomless*, French not being far from
that either)

(*) I once found the word "corbeau" in English meaning
"dark green" (I guess it from French "corbeau" -crow-
or from its use as a surname), but that seems to be an
extremely rare/technical/possibly made-up-on-the-fly-
by-some-vendor colour name.

Post by Yusuf B Gursey

Post by Javier BF
Is there a difference between "yeSil" and "yeflil" or are both

(green)
I haven't heard the word "yeflil" at all, and I am very familiar
with the language.

I found it while googling some Turkish colours to get
other colour terms. Then, googling for "yeflil" (615 hits)
it's not difficult to find it used in contexts where it's
clear it refers to a colour (then, 11 hits for "yeflil renk")
and I noticed it doesn't coappear with yeSil (curiously,
the only Google hit for both words is a page about "Yeflil
Kimya" whose URL ends in "/yesil.pdf", but in the page
itself only the word "yeflil" is used). Maybe it's some
dialectal form.

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
mor is turkic (in spite of Doerfer in TMEN).

[...]

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
mor and boz may have some relation, mor < bor , boz < *bor';
acc. to Sevortyan ; bo:r is "reddish" in Turkmen; while Doerfer
tries to connect mor with greek moron (a flower).

The latter hypothesis would connect it with Spanish
"morado", through Greek "moron" > Latin "morum" >
Spanish "mora" (mulberry) whence "morado" (purple).

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
efla^tun refers to "lilac colored"

So it refers specifically to a light kind of purple like
English "lilac" or may it be used for any purple?

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
kara (also yag~IZ) also denoted "strong" and "common people"
(or lesser aristocracy; they depend on their strength or military
prowess). "ak" the aristocracy.

Does this have anything to do with Asiatic women avoiding
the sun in the summer (contrary to Western women who even
pay for artificial sunbathing) because tanning is associated
with field labour while a china-looking skin is a symbol
of high social status?

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
what do you mean by "basic colors"?

Those that aren't classified as a variety of another,
like in English "red" vs. "vermillion, crimson, scarlet".

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
in turkish (turkic) lore
kara, go"k, kIzIl, ak, sarI enter frequently.

That is, white/black/red/yellow/blue, like
the Japanese quintuplet shiro/kuro/aka/kiro/ao.

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
go"k is the old word
for "blue" (now knwon as such from old poetry), now "sky"

Was green named "gök" (like in Japanese ao), "sarI",
or was some metaphor always used for it (like that
of "[the colour of] fresh [vegetation]")?

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
turkish normally uses mavi for "blue" (based on arabic ma:' "water").

Is it common to use "mavi" for all shades of blue
including the darker ones?

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
"khaki" in turkish is ha^ki (both from persian xa:ki: "earth colored")

I thought the original word meant "dust coloured".

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
"nil" (persian "ni:l") is "indigo" (poetic)

Is this one included in the rainbow like in English?

Cheers,
Javier

[Yusuf B Gursey]

In sci.lang Javier BF <***@hotmail.com> wrote in <***@posting.google.com>:

:> >Is there a difference between "yeSil" and "yeflil" or are both
:>
:> (green)
:>
:> I haven't heard the word "yeflil" at all, and I am very familiar
:> with the language.

: I found it while googling some Turkish colours to get
: other colour terms. Then, googling for "yeflil" (615 hits)
: it's not difficult to find it used in contexts where it's
: clear it refers to a colour (then, 11 hits for "yeflil renk")
: and I noticed it doesn't coappear with yeSil (curiously,
: the only Google hit for both words is a page about "Yeflil
: Kimya" whose URL ends in "/yesil.pdf", but in the page
: itself only the word "yeflil" is used). Maybe it's some
: dialectal form.

I think what's going on is an encoding anomaly. the webpaes aren't in
"dialect". "yeflil" doesn't appear under "Newsgroups" (excpet this
thread).

I'm just off to vacation.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

Post by Javier BF
Many thanks for the extensive reply.

Post by Yusuf B Gursey

Post by Javier BF
I'd like to know the etymology of Turkish colour names "lacivert"

persian la^ceverd (la:javard) "lapis lazuli"

Post by Javier BF
(dark blue) and "nefti" (dark green).

persian nefti^ (nafti:) from neft (naft) "naphtha" (from greek).

Is "lapis lazuli" also called "lacivert" in Turkish?

only in ottoman turkish.

Post by Javier BF
Are those colours used in Persian too or were they an

they are used, (lacivert as la:cavardi:) I don't know
how common in modern persian. ni:l (or ni:lgu^n ; ni:l
strictly speaking the plant, may be known since it has
some compounds I am familiar with)

Post by Javier BF
invention of Turkish? How common are those colours in
Turkish? ("nefti" strikes me particularly, since neither

I have heard < nefti > used in the army for the color
of a particular insignia.

Post by Javier BF
in Spanish, French or English I'm aware of a specific
name for dark green aside from "bottle/forest green",
and especially since English stock of colour names
seems to be bottomless*, French not being far from
that either)
(*) I once found the word "corbeau" in English meaning
"dark green" (I guess it from French "corbeau" -crow-
or from its use as a surname), but that seems to be an
extremely rare/technical/possibly made-up-on-the-fly-
by-some-vendor colour name.

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
mor is turkic (in spite of Doerfer in TMEN).

[...]

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
mor and boz may have some relation, mor < bor , boz < *bor';
acc. to Sevortyan ; bo:r is "reddish" in Turkmen; while Doerfer
tries to connect mor with greek moron (a flower).

The latter hypothesis would connect it with Spanish
"morado", through Greek "moron" > Latin "morum" >
Spanish "mora" (mulberry) whence "morado" (purple).

OTOH it is listed as a l.w. in persian, indicating its
use further east. it may be a turkic word but the
dialectical form (instead of what one might expect,
bor) surviving due to a similarity with greek.

Post by Javier BF

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
efla^tun refers to "lilac colored"

or more properly efla^tu^ni^

Post by Javier BF
So it refers specifically to a light kind of purple like
English "lilac" or may it be used for any purple?

it's supposed to be a light "mor" ; mor is supposed to be
redder than menek$e. (Ultraviolet is translated as mor o"tesi
<<beyond "mor">>, but this might be just motivated by the
desire to use a simple turkish word).

mor is the most common name for "purple" or related colors,
the others are specific.

Post by Javier BF

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
kara (also yag~IZ) also denoted "strong" and "common people"
(or lesser aristocracy; they depend on their strength or military
prowess). "ak" the aristocracy.

Does this have anything to do with Asiatic women avoiding
the sun in the summer (contrary to Western women who even
pay for artificial sunbathing) because tanning is associated
with field labour while a china-looking skin is a symbol
of high social status?

or just that the aristocracy gave the label "black" to
commoners because of its less desirability because
of its being associated with darkness.

Post by Javier BF

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
what do you mean by "basic colors"?

Those that aren't classified as a variety of another,
like in English "red" vs. "vermillion, crimson, scarlet".

kIzIl is defined as "bright red" by the semiofficial TDK
(turkish language institute) dictionary, but under "kIrmIzI"
kIzIl and al are given as synonyms. < al > seems at least
originally a special shade of red, but kIzIl is more
distinguished in usage. kIzIl, ak and kara are more usual in
epithets, placenames etc. while kIrmIzI, beyaz and siyah
are used for a straightforward description.

Post by Javier BF

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
in turkish (turkic) lore
kara, go"k, kIzIl, ak, sarI enter frequently.

That is, white/black/red/yellow/blue, like
the Japanese quintuplet shiro/kuro/aka/kiro/ao.

taken form asiatic lore.

Post by Javier BF

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
go"k is the old word
for "blue" (now knwon as such from old poetry), now "sky"

Was green named "g�k" (like in Japanese ao), "sarI",

"sarI" is yellow,

go"k as "green" can sometimes be thought of as included
some shades of "green" from old poetry and toponyms.

Post by Javier BF
or was some metaphor always used for it (like that
of "[the colour of] fresh [vegetation]")?

ye$il is etymologically related to "fresh vegeation".

Post by Javier BF

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
turkish normally uses mavi for "blue" (based on arabic ma:' "water").

Is it common to use "mavi" for all shades of blue
including the darker ones?

it's the most general term for "blue".

Post by Javier BF

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
"khaki" in turkish is ha^ki (both from persian xa:ki: "earth colored")

I thought the original word meant "dust coloured".

it could be used for either "soil" or "dust" (depending I guess
on the local perceptions), but it is the usual word in persian
for "soil", "earth" etc.

Post by Javier BF

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
"nil" (persian "ni:l") is "indigo" (poetic)

Is this one included in the rainbow like in English?

it's a bookish word, not commonly used. the native word
is c,ivit mavisi "indigo blue" c,ivit refering to the plant
or dye.

Post by Javier BF
Cheers,
Javier

[Larry Trask]

Yusuf B Gursey <***@TheWorld.com> wrote in message news:<bsdcvv$t4n$***@pcls4.std.com>...

[snip essay on Turkish color terms]

Yusuf, I'd just like to thank you for one of the most interesting and
informative postings I've ever seen anywhere.

As it happens, I'd been meaning to ask about the modern Turkish color
terms, but I was planning to wait until I had first consulted the
article on the subject which appeared a few years ago in the journal
Linguistics.

Larry Trask
***@sussex.ac.uk

[Yusuf B Gursey]

In sci.lang Larry Trask <***@sussex.ac.uk> wrote in <***@posting.google.com>:
: Yusuf B Gursey <***@TheWorld.com> wrote in message news:<bsdcvv$t4n$***@pcls4.std.com>...

: [snip essay on Turkish color terms]

: Yusuf, I'd just like to thank you for one of the most interesting and
: informative postings I've ever seen anywhere.

thanks.


: As it happens, I'd been meaning to ask about the modern Turkish color
: terms, but I was planning to wait until I had first consulted the
: article on the subject which appeared a few years ago in the journal
: Linguistics.


I would be interested in the exact reference, though getting to the
library might take a hile during vacation.

: Larry Trask
: ***@sussex.ac.uk

[Larry Trask]

Yusuf B Gursey <***@TheWorld.com> wrote in message news:<bskt54$2sm$***@pcls4.std.com>...

[LT]

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
: As it happens, I'd been meaning to ask about the modern Turkish color
: terms, but I was planning to wait until I had first consulted the
: article on the subject which appeared a few years ago in the journal
: Linguistics.
I would be interested in the exact reference, though getting to the
library might take a hile during vacation.

I'm afraid I have only a partial reference, but it's enough to find
the article if your library has the journal:

Linguistics. 1998. Vol. 36, issue 5.

Larry Trask
***@sussex.ac.uk

[Yusuf B Gursey]

In sci.lang Larry Trask <***@sussex.ac.uk> wrote in <***@posting.google.com>:
: Yusuf B Gursey <***@TheWorld.com> wrote in message news:<bskt54$2sm$***@pcls4.std.com>...


:> I would be interested in the exact reference, though getting to the
:> library might take a hile during vacation.

: I'm afraid I have only a partial reference, but it's enough to find
: the article if your library has the journal:

: Linguistics. 1998. Vol. 36, issue 5.

thanks. now I have it.

: Larry Trask
: ***@sussex.ac.uk

[Nigel Greenwood]

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
persian la^ceverd (la:javard) "lapis lazuli"

Worth mentioning that this is the origin of the word "azure" in
English etc, via Arabic.

<...>

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
"nil" (persian "ni:l") is "indigo" (poetic), "kehribar" is
"amber" (mineral and color)

From Persian Kahruba: = lit. "straw-snatcher" from its well-known
static electrical properties [Greek êlektron = amber]. Kahruba'i =
electric in Modern Arabic.

[This may be the start of a different thread, I suppose, but many of
the Turkish colours can, like other common adjj., be intensified by
reduplication:
eg Yemye$il 'bright green', Mosmor 'bright purple, puce [with
anger]', Bembeyaz 'snow-white', etc.]

Nigel

ScriptMaster language resources (Persian/Turkish/Modern & Classical
Greek/Russian):
http://www.elgin.free-online.co.uk

[Yusuf B Gursey]

In sci.lang Nigel Greenwood <***@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in <***@posting.google.com>:

: [This may be the start of a different thread, I suppose, but many of
: the Turkish colours can, like other common adjj., be intensified by
: reduplication:
: eg Yemye$il 'bright green', Mosmor 'bright purple, puce [with
: anger]', Bembeyaz 'snow-white', etc.]

according to Menges the ancient emphatic particle mI / ma is involved
(with assimilations).