Discussion:
turkey/peru/portuguese
(too old to reply)
howard richler
2004-08-31 19:19:05 UTC
Permalink
Does anyone know why the bird "turkey"' is aclled "peru" in
Portuguese? Many languages name it after India, like French and Hebrew
and English, of course names it after Turkey b/c of the mistaked
belief that the bird originated in parts of Asia. But where does
"peru" come into this?
Yusuf B Gursey
2004-08-31 20:00:41 UTC
Permalink
In sci.lang howard richler <***@sympatico.ca> wrote in <***@posting.google.com>:
: Does anyone know why the bird "turkey"' is aclled "peru" in
: Portuguese? Many languages name it after India, like French and Hebrew
: and English, of course names it after Turkey b/c of the mistaked
: belief that the bird originated in parts of Asia. But where does
: "peru" come into this?

for why the bird is called "turkey"
see this post, which embeds other posts:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: Yusuf B Gursey <***@shell01.TheWorld.com>
Subject: Re: Gunes Dil Kurami Hakkinda Birkac Soz - 3 (The Sun
Language Theory)
Message-ID: <***@world.std.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 15:37:52 GMT
References: <***@posting.google.com>
<***@alphalink.com.au>
<***@posting.google.com>
<***@alphalink.com.au>
<***@posting.google.com>


mb <***@mail.com> wrote:

: Reality beats fiction anytime: It's the other way around. A lot of
: money was spent on a campaign to convince everybody to stop using
the
: name "Turkey" and say "T�rkiye" instead, fronted/umlaut U and all.
The
: association of the nation with that useful bird was felt as being
: undignified (even though they call it "Indian" in their own
language).

oh, yes, and arabic has "Greek" (ru:miyy, or rather Byzantine /
Anatolian)
cock, as well as the now rarer Indian Cock i.e. di:k ru:miyy
("Greek"),
di:k hindiyy ("Indian").

IMHO in light of the historian's claim the second would be older, the
first a calque of "turkey".

here is the sci.lang thread:

===============

Message 8 in thread
From: Yusuf B Gursey (***@world.std.com)
Subject: Re: dinde
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Date: 2001-06-06 10:11:24 PST


this is from soc.culture.turkish :

From: trknwsl-***@nwu.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Happy Meleagris Gullapavo Day
Date: 25 Nov 1997 16:09:39 -0500
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston, IL, US
Reply-To: ***@SPD-13.ils.nwu.edu


[Our usual season's message from the Turkish Radio Hour
and its volunteers]

Happy Meleagris Gullapavo Day

H.B. Paksoy

Or, how the "thanksgiving bird" acquired its name:

The homeland of the fowl known as "Meleagris
gullopavo" or "americana sybestris auis," is the North
American continent. The 1494 Tordesillas treaty, forged by
the Pope in Rome, granted the monopoly of commerce
originating from the newly discovered continent to the
Portuguese (as opposed to the Spanish). The Portuguese
brought this fowl to their Goa colony in India. Circa
1615, Cihangir (a direct descendent of the founder of the
"Mughal" empire in India, Babur 1483-1530, who was himself
a grandson of Timur who died in 1405) wrote his Tuzuk-u
Jahangiri (Institutes of Cihangir). In his book, Cihangir
also described this fowl in detail replete with a color
drawing. Since "Meleagris gullopavo" resembled the
"Meleagris Numida" commonly found in Africa (especially in
Guinea), and already known in India, the former became
known in British India as the "Guinea Fowl." [See O.
Caroe, "Why Turkey." Asian Affairs (October 1970)].
Meleagris gullapavo was then introduced to Egypt, a
province of the Ottoman empire and entered the Turkish
language as Hindi ("India," or, "from India"). When
traders took a breeding stock from Ottoman ("Turkish")
Egypt to Spain and the British Isles, the bird was
designated "Turkey." As a result, the pilgrims landing on
Plymouth rock in 1620 were familiar with "Turkey," when
they encountered it in their new home. After the 1776
Declaration of Independence, Benjamin Franklin suggested
that "turkey" --native of the land-- be designated as the
symbol of the young American republic. Instead, Haliaeetus
leucocephalus ("Bald Eagle") was given this honor.

Translated from:
H. B. Paksoy, "Turk Tarihi, Toplumlarin Mayasi,
Uygarlik" Annals of Japan Association for Middle
East Studies (Tokyo) No. 7, 1992. Pp. 173-220.
Footnote 26.
[Reprinted in Yeni Forum (Ankara), Vol. 13, No. 277,
Haziran 1992. Pp. 54-65].


***************************************************************************
Send email to Turkish Radio Hour <***@aimnet.com> to subscribe to
TRKNWS-L
The URL for TRKNWS-L is http://www.cs.nwu.edu/~yusuf/turkey/trknws/
***************************************************************************


Message 9 in thread
From: Yusuf B Gursey (***@world.std.com)
Subject: Re: dinde
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Date: 2001-06-06 14:09:47 PST


Yusuf B Gursey (***@world.std.com) wrote:
: this is from soc.culture.turkish :
: From: trknwsl-***@nwu.edu
: Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish
: Subject: Happy Meleagris Gullapavo Day
: Date: 25 Nov 1997 16:09:39 -0500
: Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston, IL, US
: Reply-To: ***@SPD-13.ils.nwu.edu


: [Our usual season's message from the Turkish Radio Hour
: and its volunteers]
: Happy Meleagris Gullapavo Day
: H.B. Paksoy
: Or, how the "thanksgiving bird" acquired its name:



let me add that egypt was called "turkey" even before the ottomans.
the
mamlukes were qypchaq turks (later circassians, but they kept up
qypchaq
for a while). the official name of the satte was called
ad-dawlat-utturkiyya(t) "the turkish state" in arabic and eurpoeans
during
this period sometimes called it turkey (turcia, turchia)

in short, according to the article,

the americas -> (portugues) -> india "indian" -> eygpt "turkey" ->
europe.

in turkish the bird turkey is called hindi "indian".

Message 10 in thread
From: J. W. Love (***@aol.comix)
Subject: Re: dinde
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Date: 2001-06-07 04:33:18 PST


<<Happy Meleagris Gullapavo Day>>

How odd, since that's not the bird's name!

(Hint: try _Meleagris Gallopavo._)

OT question: why isn't the order the reverse, _Gallopavo meleagris,_
as
in:

_Creoboter meleagris,_ a speckled mantis
_Fritillaria meleagris,_ the checkered lily
_Lamprologus meleagris,_ the pearly ocellatus
_Nodilittorina meleagris,_ a mottled barnacle
_Ostracion meleagris,_ the spotted boxfish
Lars Braesicke
2004-08-31 21:32:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
OT question: why isn't the order the reverse, _Gallopavo meleagris,_
as
_Creoboter meleagris,_ a speckled mantis
_Fritillaria meleagris,_ the checkered lily
_Lamprologus meleagris,_ the pearly ocellatus
_Nodilittorina meleagris,_ a mottled barnacle
_Ostracion meleagris,_ the spotted boxfish
The species is Gallopavo ("fowl-peacock"), part of the genus Meleagris
(turkeys), part of the subfamily Meleagridinae (turkey-likes), part of the
family Phasianidae (pheasant-likes), part of the suborder Galli (fowls),
part of the order Galliformes (fowl-likes), part of the subclass Neornithes
(new birds), part of the class Aves (birds).

Lars
Yusuf B Gursey
2004-09-01 00:04:07 UTC
Permalink
In sci.lang Lars Braesicke <***@despammed.com> wrote in <***@uni-berlin.de>:
: Yusuf B Gursey schrieb:
:> OT question: why isn't the order the reverse, _Gallopavo meleagris,_
:> as
:> in:
:>
:> _Creoboter meleagris,_ a speckled mantis
:> _Fritillaria meleagris,_ the checkered lily
:> _Lamprologus meleagris,_ the pearly ocellatus
:> _Nodilittorina meleagris,_ a mottled barnacle
:> _Ostracion meleagris,_ the spotted boxfish

: The species is Gallopavo ("fowl-peacock"), part of the genus Meleagris
: (turkeys), part of the subfamily Meleagridinae (turkey-likes), part of the
: family Phasianidae (pheasant-likes), part of the suborder Galli (fowls),
: part of the order Galliformes (fowl-likes), part of the subclass Neornithes
: (new birds), part of the class Aves (birds).

the original poster had got the taxonomical name wrong.


: Lars
Jacques Guy
2004-09-01 15:01:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
for why the bird is called "turkey"
[whew!]

And it's called "dinde" in French for
obvious reasons. However, why is it
called "Pute" in German? Now "dinde" in
French also means "une femme de moeurs
légères" while "pute" (also "putain")
is a whore, plain and simple. I think there
is something there, but how did "pute", whore,
get into German as turkey?
Andrew Gwilliam
2004-08-31 22:15:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jacques Guy
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
for why the bird is called "turkey"
[whew!]
And it's called "dinde" in French for
obvious reasons. However, why is it
called "Pute" in German? Now "dinde" in
French also means "une femme de moeurs
légères" while "pute" (also "putain")
is a whore, plain and simple. I think there
is something there, but how did "pute", whore,
get into German as turkey?
Is it the sound the animal makes?
--
Andrew Gwilliam
To email me, replace "bottomless_pit" with "silverhelm"
Peter Dy
2004-08-31 23:55:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Gwilliam
Post by Jacques Guy
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
for why the bird is called "turkey"
[whew!]
And it's called "dinde" in French for
obvious reasons. However, why is it
called "Pute" in German? Now "dinde" in
French also means "une femme de moeurs
légères" while "pute" (also "putain")
is a whore, plain and simple. I think there
is something there, but how did "pute", whore,
get into German as turkey?
Is it the sound the animal makes?
Perhaps. Wahrig gives this etymological entry for "Pute": zu nddt.
"puteren", "schnell und undeutlich sprechen"

Peter
Andrew Gwilliam
2004-08-31 23:58:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Dy
Post by Andrew Gwilliam
Post by Jacques Guy
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
for why the bird is called "turkey"
[whew!]
And it's called "dinde" in French for
obvious reasons. However, why is it
called "Pute" in German? Now "dinde" in
French also means "une femme de moeurs
légères" while "pute" (also "putain")
is a whore, plain and simple. I think there
is something there, but how did "pute", whore,
get into German as turkey?
Is it the sound the animal makes?
Perhaps. Wahrig gives this etymological entry for "Pute": zu nddt.
"puteren", "schnell und undeutlich sprechen"
I'm sorry; would you mind translating that, please?
--
Andrew Gwilliam
To email me, replace "bottomless_pit" with "silverhelm"
Peter Dy
2004-09-01 00:00:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Gwilliam
Post by Peter Dy
Post by Andrew Gwilliam
Post by Jacques Guy
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
for why the bird is called "turkey"
[whew!]
And it's called "dinde" in French for
obvious reasons. However, why is it
called "Pute" in German? Now "dinde" in
French also means "une femme de moeurs
légères" while "pute" (also "putain")
is a whore, plain and simple. I think there
is something there, but how did "pute", whore,
get into German as turkey?
Is it the sound the animal makes?
Perhaps. Wahrig gives this etymological entry for "Pute": zu nddt.
"puteren", "schnell und undeutlich sprechen"
I'm sorry; would you mind translating that, please?
Oh, sorry. "Compare Low German "puteren", "to speak quickly and unclearly."

Peter
Jacques Guy
2004-09-01 17:03:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Gwilliam
Post by Peter Dy
Perhaps. Wahrig gives this etymological entry for "Pute": zu nddt.
"puteren", "schnell und undeutlich sprechen"
I'm sorry; would you mind translating that, please?
"Parler vite et incorrectement" I think.

Sorry... couldn't resist!
Oliver Cromm
2004-09-01 22:36:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jacques Guy
Post by Andrew Gwilliam
Post by Peter Dy
Perhaps. Wahrig gives this etymological entry for "Pute": zu
nddt. "puteren", "schnell und undeutlich sprechen"
I'm sorry; would you mind translating that, please?
"Parler vite et incorrectement" I think.
Sorry... couldn't resist!
I'm sorry; would you mind translating that, please?

(Couldn't resist either)

But not so schnell and undeutlich [indistinct] this time!
--
Oliver Cromm
'Conduct warfare on the most chivalrous principles,
there must ever be a touch of murder about it.'
William Howard Russell, 1860
Douglas G. Kilday
2004-09-01 09:18:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Dy
Post by Andrew Gwilliam
Post by Jacques Guy
[...]
And it's called "dinde" in French for
obvious reasons. However, why is it
called "Pute" in German? Now "dinde" in
French also means "une femme de moeurs
légères" while "pute" (also "putain")
is a whore, plain and simple. I think there
is something there, but how did "pute", whore,
get into German as turkey?
Is it the sound the animal makes?
Perhaps. Wahrig gives this etymological entry for "Pute": zu nddt.
"puteren", "schnell und undeutlich sprechen"
On the other hand Mackensen regards <Pute(r)> as derived from pre-Germanic
substratum, along with a few other bird-names: <Ammer> 'kind of finch',
<Dohle> 'jackdaw' (cf. It. <tàccola> < Lgb. *<tahhala>), <Elster> 'magpie',
<Lerche> 'lark', and <Möwe> '(sea)mew'.
Merlijn De Smit
2004-09-03 14:55:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas G. Kilday
Post by Peter Dy
Post by Andrew Gwilliam
Post by Jacques Guy
[...]
And it's called "dinde" in French for
obvious reasons. However, why is it
called "Pute" in German? Now "dinde" in
French also means "une femme de moeurs
légères" while "pute" (also "putain")
is a whore, plain and simple. I think there
is something there, but how did "pute", whore,
get into German as turkey?
Is it the sound the animal makes?
Perhaps. Wahrig gives this etymological entry for "Pute": zu nddt.
"puteren", "schnell und undeutlich sprechen"
On the other hand Mackensen regards <Pute(r)> as derived from pre-Germanic
substratum, along with a few other bird-names: <Ammer> 'kind of finch',
<Dohle> 'jackdaw' (cf. It. <tàccola> < Lgb. *<tahhala>), <Elster> 'magpie',
<Lerche> 'lark', and <Möwe> '(sea)mew'.
There's a bird called "putter" in Dutch - don't know if it's related.
The consonantism does not seem very IE, yes, but the bird is anything
but turkey-like, though (a "putter" is small, graceful and quite
beautiful with a white, black and red-colored head. A turkey is
disgustingly ugly). Then again, I just read that the Lithuanian word
for "butterfly" is actually derived from that of "ox" (the feelers!)
and that the Finns have a bird-name roughly translatable as "air-goat"
(taivaanvuohi) so nothing really surprises me anymore.

Merlijn de Smit
Oliver Cromm
2004-09-01 22:53:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Gwilliam
Post by Jacques Guy
And it's called "dinde" in French for
obvious reasons. However, why is it
called "Pute" in German? Now "dinde" in
French also means "une femme de moeurs
légères" while "pute" (also "putain")
is a whore, plain and simple. I think there
is something there, but how did "pute", whore,
get into German as turkey?
Is it the sound the animal makes?
One theory is that it's the sound people make to call it («put put»).

Isn't the femme-connection of dinde secondary? In German, an
unpleasant woman is called «[dumme] Pute».

Other German names for turkeys are «Truthuhn» and «Kurre», where the
latter one is connected by Wahrig's dictionary with it's
vocalizations, the former - ultimately - with swelling. Peacock, so
to speak.

Just as food for thought.
--
Oliver Cromm
'Conduct warfare on the most chivalrous principles,
there must ever be a touch of murder about it.'
William Howard Russell, 1860
Douglas G. Kilday
2004-09-03 10:05:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Oliver Cromm
Post by Andrew Gwilliam
Post by Jacques Guy
And it's called "dinde" in French for
obvious reasons. However, why is it
called "Pute" in German? Now "dinde" in
French also means "une femme de moeurs
légères" while "pute" (also "putain")
is a whore, plain and simple. I think there
is something there, but how did "pute", whore,
get into German as turkey?
Is it the sound the animal makes?
One theory is that it's the sound people make to call it («put put»).
Isn't the femme-connection of dinde secondary? In German, an
unpleasant woman is called «[dumme] Pute».
That expression could well be connected with dialectal Low German
(Oldenburgish, East Frisian) <pu:t>, <pu:te>, <püt> 'weibliches
Geschlechtsteil', in which case it is parallel to English <dumb twat>, etc.
The apparent synonymy with <Pute> 'hen-turkey' would then be merely
folk-etymological.
Post by Oliver Cromm
[...]
Jacques Guy
2004-09-04 22:13:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas G. Kilday
That expression could well be connected with dialectal Low German
(Oldenburgish, East Frisian) <pu:t>, <pu:te>, <püt> 'weibliches
Geschlechtsteil', in which case it is parallel to English <dumb twat>, etc.
Ah, that seems to start making sense!
Post by Douglas G. Kilday
The apparent synonymy with <Pute> 'hen-turkey' would then be merely
folk-etymological.
And "Pute" would have come from "puteren" if memory serves...
I'm more skeptical of this... until "pussy" comes from "purr".
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
2004-09-04 09:07:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jacques Guy
Post by Douglas G. Kilday
That expression
{i.e., Oliver Cromm's "In German, an unpleasant woman
is called «[dumme] Pute».}
Post by Jacques Guy
Post by Douglas G. Kilday
could well be connected with dialectal Low German (Oldenburgish,
East Frisian) <pu:t>, <pu:te>, <püt> 'weibliches Geschlechtsteil',
in which case it is parallel to English <dumb twat>, etc.
Nein, nein, nein! German "Pute" (turkey) and French "pute" (whore) are
etymologically and semantically as unrelated as English "sale" and
Italian "sale" (salt) or English "bier" and German "Bier" (beer).

"Dumme Pute" (lit., stupid turkey-hen) is just one of many dozens of
animal metaphors used in German to denigrate another person. Here are a
few others meaning "stupid, unpleasant female," "stupid twat/cunt":

dumme [OR: blöde] Gans (lit., stupid goose)
dumme [OR: blöde] Wachtel (lit., stupid quail)
dumme [OR: blöde] Ziege (lit., stupid goat)
dumme [OR: blöde] Geiß (lit., stupid goat)
dumme [OR: blöde] Kuh (lit., stupid cow)
dumme [OR: blöde] Sau (lit., stupid pig); also for males
dummes [OR: blödes] Rindvieh (lit., stupid cattle); also for males
dummes [OR: blödes] Kamel (lit., stupid camel); also for males
dummes [OR: blödes] Schaf (lit., stupid sheep); also for males
dummes [OR: blödes] Rhinozeros (lit., stupid rhinoceros); also for males
Post by Jacques Guy
Ah, that seems to start making sense!
Mais non, non, non, mon ami! I can't stand it any longer to see all
that nonsense posted about "Pute."

The dialectal Low German (Oldenburgish, East Frisian) <pu:t>, <pu:te>,
<püt> 'weibliches Geschlechtsteil' (i.e., female genitals) -- listed
above by Douglas -- have *nothing whatsoever* to do with that foul fowl
called "Pute" in central and northern Germany.

The Low German terms "Put," "Pute," "Püt" and all other terms listed
below meaning "cunt" are all vulgar (hence translated as "cunt," not as
"vulva/vagina"). They are derived from Indo-European < *pû > meaning
"to stink"; "to rot, to decay."

I-E .................. *pû
Middle High German .... vut (pron. /fu:t/)
Bavarian .............. Fud
German ................ Fotze
German ................ Fott (see "Hundsfott," below)*
English dialectal ..... fud (!)
Old Icelandic ......... fu* (* = eth)

The Low German "Put," "Pute" and "Püt" have the unshifted /p/; in Upper
German dialects they become "Fut," "Füt," etc. Compare Swiss German
"Füdli" which, curiously, doesn't mean "cuntlet" but "arse."

* German "Hundsfott" (scoundrel, villain) literally means "dog's cunt";
few native speakers of German using this term of abuse are aware that
"Fott" is related to and means "Fotze," the most vulgar German term for
female genitals.

The Monty Python chaps sneaked a variant of "Hundsfott" into one of
their sketches as part of the name of the dying German composer with the
long name: "Johann Gambolputty...Hundsfut...von Ulm."
--
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
M A L E D I C T A
P.O. Box 14123
Santa Rosa, CA 95402, USA
http://www.sonic.net/maledicta/
Jacques Guy
2004-09-05 05:18:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Reinhold (Rey) Aman
The dialectal Low German (Oldenburgish, East Frisian) <pu:t>, <pu:te>,
<püt> 'weibliches Geschlechtsteil' (i.e., female genitals) -- listed
above by Douglas -- have *nothing whatsoever* to do with that foul fowl
called "Pute" in central and northern Germany.
The Low German terms "Put," "Pute," "Püt" and all other terms listed
below meaning "cunt" are all vulgar (hence translated as "cunt," not as
"vulva/vagina"). They are derived from Indo-European < *pû > meaning
"to stink"; "to rot, to decay."
German ................ Fotze
Ah, so "dumme Pute" is part dialectal for "dumme Fotze"!

Ben, fallait le dire plus tôt, M'sieur.

Now, we are still left with the mystery of Pute = turkey, aren't we?

They say that the origin of French "vasistas" (fanlight, transom) is
German "was ist das?". A German would have asked a Frenchman, pointing
at a transom, "was ist das?", and the Frenchman would have misunderstood
it as the word for the thing. There is a similar story doing the rounds
about "kangaroo". Now imagine a Frenchman, a German, a whore, and a
turkey. The Frenchman... no, the German... no... oh my poor head!
Paul J Kriha
2004-09-04 12:46:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jacques Guy
Post by Reinhold (Rey) Aman
The dialectal Low German (Oldenburgish, East Frisian) <pu:t>, <pu:te>,
<püt> 'weibliches Geschlechtsteil' (i.e., female genitals) -- listed
above by Douglas -- have *nothing whatsoever* to do with that foul fowl
called "Pute" in central and northern Germany.
The Low German terms "Put," "Pute," "Püt" and all other terms listed
below meaning "cunt" are all vulgar (hence translated as "cunt," not as
"vulva/vagina"). They are derived from Indo-European < *pû > meaning
"to stink"; "to rot, to decay."
German ................ Fotze
Ah, so "dumme Pute" is part dialectal for "dumme Fotze"!
Ben, fallait le dire plus tôt, M'sieur.
Now, we are still left with the mystery of Pute = turkey, aren't we?
They say that the origin of French "vasistas" (fanlight, transom) is
German "was ist das?". A German would have asked a Frenchman, pointing
at a transom, "was ist das?", and the Frenchman would have misunderstood
it as the word for the thing. There is a similar story doing the rounds
about "kangaroo".
Now imagine a Frenchman, a German, a whore, and a turkey.
The Frenchman... no, the German... no... oh my poor head!
It might be easier to figure if all four are just two people. ;-)

Paul JK
Jacques Guy
2004-09-05 05:59:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul J Kriha
Post by Jacques Guy
Now imagine a Frenchman, a German, a whore, and a turkey.
The Frenchman... no, the German... no... oh my poor head!
It might be easier to figure if all four are just two people. ;-)
Ah... a French turkey and a German whore... une dinde, eine Hure.
no, it doesn't work... (much scratching of head).... ... ... ...

Let's try again (scratch scratch) ... scratch... scratch ...

a French whore and a German turkey, une pute, eine Pute...

VICTORY!

Now we have this French whore and this German turkey,
and the whore asks the turkey... ... oh my poor head!
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
2004-09-05 06:31:04 UTC
Permalink
Jacques Guy wrote:

[...]
Post by Jacques Guy
Now imagine a Frenchman, a German, a whore, and a turkey.
The Frenchman... no, the German... no... oh my poor head!
To soothe your poor head, repeat ten times:

Didon dina, dit-on, du dos dodu d'un dodu dindon.

Feel better? Bien.

But back to "turkey" used as a metaphorical term of abuse, Signore
Barbarossa. One more time: German "Pute" (1: turkey-hen; 2: silly or
stupid woman) has absofuckinglutely nothing to do with French "pute" (whore).

However, French "dindon" (turkey-cock) also means "homme stupide et
vaniteux" (a stupid and vain man) and is the French near-equivalent of
German "Pute." Plus, don't forget English "turkey," also meaning "a
stupid, foolish, or inept person." All animal metaphors: no whores in sight.
--
Reinhold (Rey) Aman, Philologist
AUEer Emeritus & Eremitus
Oliver Cromm
2004-09-07 17:43:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jacques Guy
They say that the origin of French "vasistas" (fanlight, transom)
is German "was ist das?". A German would have asked a Frenchman,
pointing at a transom, "was ist das?", and the Frenchman would
have misunderstood it as the word for the thing.
I never believed that story, because its presuppositions seem all
upside down: The German didn't know the thing, for which there is the
word "Oberlicht" at least in the 19th century (you can find numerous
examples at gutenberg.spiegel.de), while the French had the thing but
no word for it.
--
Oliver Cromm
'Conduct warfare on the most chivalrous principles,
there must ever be a touch of murder about it.'
William Howard Russell, 1860
Rolleston
2004-09-04 13:41:52 UTC
Permalink
Reinhold (Rey) Aman wrote:
[...]
Post by Reinhold (Rey) Aman
The dialectal Low German (Oldenburgish, East Frisian) <pu:t>, <pu:te>,
<püt> 'weibliches Geschlechtsteil' (i.e., female genitals) -- listed
above by Douglas -- have *nothing whatsoever* to do with that foul fowl
called "Pute" in central and northern Germany.
The Low German terms "Put," "Pute," "Püt" and all other terms listed
below meaning "cunt" are all vulgar (hence translated as "cunt," not as
"vulva/vagina"). They are derived from Indo-European < *pû > meaning
"to stink"; "to rot, to decay."
I-E .................. *pû
I couldn't help but notice these in L&S (reduced):

puteo , ere
[Sanscr. root pu-, to stink; cf. pus; Gr. puon]

puto , avi, atum
[root pu, to cleanse; whence putus, puteus, purus, etc.]

purus , a, um
[Sanscr. root pu] , clean, pure

Are there two unrelated pu's?

In English we have "poo" (= "excrement").
Is that derived from Indo-European <*pû>?

R.
Jacques Guy
2004-09-05 07:00:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rolleston
puteo , ere
[Sanscr. root pu-, to stink; cf. pus; Gr. puon]
puto , avi, atum
[root pu, to cleanse; whence putus, puteus, purus, etc.]
purus , a, um
[Sanscr. root pu] , clean, pure
Don't forget the other puto "to think"
And puta, whom have just been discussing.

And German Fotze < Pute
Post by Rolleston
Are there two unrelated pu's?
There's French purin, which does not smell very
nice. And puberté, the time you start to stink.
And pubis, where you stink _twice_ as much.
And punaise, which stinks when you crush it.
Post by Rolleston
In English we have "poo" (= "excrement").
Is that derived from Indo-European <*pû>?
Don't forget Peppy Le Pew.
Rolleston
2004-09-04 14:54:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jacques Guy
Post by Rolleston
puto , avi, atum
[root pu, to cleanse; whence putus, puteus, purus, etc.]
Don't forget the other puto "to think"
A "Trop." use of the "puto" above, in L&S:

http://tinyurl.com/5mdj9

Not that I trust entirely a dictionary published in 1879.
Post by Jacques Guy
And puta, whom have just been discussing.
Pruning a <cough> bush? Then you need the lovely puta:

http://tinyurl.com/6l36w
Post by Jacques Guy
Post by Rolleston
In English we have "poo" (= "excrement").
Is that derived from Indo-European <*pû>?
Don't forget Peppy Le Pew.
Anything to do with Winnie the Pooh?

("Winnie ille Pu" in the Latin translation.)

Pooh sticks, eh?

Stick to Paddington Bear (from darkest Peru!),
and keep your hands and eyes away from this filth.

R.
Jacques Guy
2004-09-05 17:59:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rolleston
Post by Jacques Guy
Don't forget Peppy Le Pew.
Anything to do with Winnie the Pooh?
Don't you know Peppy Le Pew? There is
a whole series of animated cartoons,
the good old style cartoons of Looney
Tunes (Loony or Looney?), before the
two swine Hanna and Barbera wrecked
the art. Peppy Le Pew is a skunk.
He is also a lady's man. And a caricature
of a Frenchman. Inspector Clouseau must
have had him for his teacher, Maurice
Chevalier too.

Hey! Look what I found!

http://www.ppc4you.com/pages/1718.html

That's him, that's Peppy! And he looks in
love, as usual.
André Keshav
2004-09-05 14:00:17 UTC
Permalink
"Jacques Guy" <***@alphalink.com.au>
| Rolleston wrote:
| > puteo , ere
| > [Sanscr. root pu-, to stink; cf. pus; Gr. puon]

| There's French purin, which does not smell very
| nice. And puberté, the time you start to stink.
| And pubis, where you stink _twice_ as much.
| And punaise, which stinks when you crush it.

Also puer and putride :)
howard richler
2004-09-05 23:06:30 UTC
Permalink
Just out of curiousity, with so many countries naming "turkey" after
India, how do the languages of India refer to a turkey?
Post by André Keshav
| > puteo , ere
| > [Sanscr. root pu-, to stink; cf. pus; Gr. puon]
| There's French purin, which does not smell very
| nice. And puberté, the time you start to stink.
| And pubis, where you stink _twice_ as much.
| And punaise, which stinks when you crush it.
Also puer and putride :)
Pieter
2004-09-04 13:50:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Reinhold (Rey) Aman
The Low German "Put," "Pute" and "Püt" have the unshifted /p/; in
Upper German dialects they become "Fut," "Füt," etc. Compare Swiss
German "Füdli" which, curiously, doesn't mean "cuntlet" but "arse."
* German "Hundsfott" (scoundrel, villain) literally means "dog's
cunt"; few native speakers of German using this term of abuse are
aware that "Fott" is related to and means "Fotze," the most vulgar
German term for female genitals.
Interesting, I looked up the Dutch "hondsvot" and get precisely the
same, I'd never have known (I would have guessed it had to do with "vod"
= a rag and assorted types of rubbish among other things). My '58/'79
etymological dictionary manages to describe it as a vulva canis which I
thought was rather poetic (or more so than the modern Van Dale's
"bitch's genitals" anyway). And interestingly "vot" is said to be
related to the behind indeed. Thinking of kangaroos... well let's not
even go there, I guess somebody got something mixed up. "Vot you're
saying?"

Cheers,

Pieter
Douglas G. Kilday
2004-09-05 17:04:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Reinhold (Rey) Aman
Post by Jacques Guy
Post by Douglas G. Kilday
That expression
{i.e., Oliver Cromm's "In German, an unpleasant woman
is called «[dumme] Pute».}
Post by Jacques Guy
Post by Douglas G. Kilday
could well be connected with dialectal Low German (Oldenburgish,
East Frisian) <pu:t>, <pu:te>, <püt> 'weibliches Geschlechtsteil',
in which case it is parallel to English <dumb twat>, etc.
Nein, nein, nein! German "Pute" (turkey) and French "pute" (whore) are
etymologically and semantically as unrelated as English "sale" and
Italian "sale" (salt) or English "bier" and German "Bier" (beer).
"Dumme Pute" (lit., stupid turkey-hen) is just one of many dozens of
animal metaphors used in German to denigrate another person. Here are a
dumme [OR: blöde] Gans (lit., stupid goose)
dumme [OR: blöde] Wachtel (lit., stupid quail)
dumme [OR: blöde] Ziege (lit., stupid goat)
dumme [OR: blöde] Geiß (lit., stupid goat)
dumme [OR: blöde] Kuh (lit., stupid cow)
dumme [OR: blöde] Sau (lit., stupid pig); also for males
dummes [OR: blödes] Rindvieh (lit., stupid cattle); also for males
dummes [OR: blödes] Kamel (lit., stupid camel); also for males
dummes [OR: blödes] Schaf (lit., stupid sheep); also for males
dummes [OR: blödes] Rhinozeros (lit., stupid rhinoceros); also for males
Point taken; this wealth of Schimpfwörter based on "dumb" animals makes what
I proposed utterly superfluous. However, I was not trying to make an
etymological connection between the actual ornithonym <Pute(r)>, which I
regard as probably pre-IE, and the Low German terms for pudenda.
Post by Reinhold (Rey) Aman
Post by Jacques Guy
Ah, that seems to start making sense!
Mais non, non, non, mon ami! I can't stand it any longer to see all
that nonsense posted about "Pute."
The dialectal Low German (Oldenburgish, East Frisian) <pu:t>, <pu:te>,
<püt> 'weibliches Geschlechtsteil' (i.e., female genitals) -- listed
above by Douglas -- have *nothing whatsoever* to do with that foul fowl
called "Pute" in central and northern Germany.
The Low German terms "Put," "Pute," "Püt" and all other terms listed
below meaning "cunt" are all vulgar (hence translated as "cunt," not as
"vulva/vagina"). They are derived from Indo-European < *pû > meaning
"to stink"; "to rot, to decay."
I-E .................. *pû
Middle High German .... vut (pron. /fu:t/)
Bavarian .............. Fud
German ................ Fotze
German ................ Fott (see "Hundsfott," below)*
English dialectal ..... fud (!)
Old Icelandic ......... fu* (* = eth)
The Low German "Put," "Pute" and "Püt" have the unshifted /p/; in Upper
German dialects they become "Fut," "Füt," etc. Compare Swiss German
"Füdli" which, curiously, doesn't mean "cuntlet" but "arse."
English <tail> can mean either, and Funk & Wagnalls gives for <fud> (1)
'scut or tail of a hare, rabbit, or the like'; (2) 'woolen waste: the refuse
of the scribbling process'.

The really interesting matter is the unshifted /p/ in Low German, for which
I can think of two explanations. One is Hans Kuhn's Nordwestblock, the
presumed group of IE-speakers located between Celts and Germans, with
neither the Celtic loss of initial /p/ nor the Germanic consonant-shift.
The other is borrowing from Vulgar Latin. Some scholars scoff at the
Nordwestblock, but it provides the only plausible etymology I have seen for
the tribal name <Pari:sii:> 'dwellers along the Isa' (i.e. some swift river
named *Eisa: in Krahe's theory); Celtic has no /p/ in comparable names like
<Aremorici:> 'dwellers along the sea'. On the other hand, excavations of
settlements in the Low German area well outside the Roman imperial frontier
suggest economic dependence on the Empire, so the infiltration of some Latin
words into prehistoric Low German, apart from those already present in all
West Germanic dialects, is plausible.

If Low German <Put>, <Pute>, and <Püt> come from Vulgar Latin, the only
plausible protoform I can think of is <pu:tidum> 'rotten, stinking object',
which is also the source of Old French <put>, whence <pute>, <putain> and
Spanish <puta>, Italian <puttana>. But I can think of no principled way for
Low German to lose whatever followed the Latin accent, as Old French did.
Therefore, I am inclined to regard these Low German words as derived from
Kuhn's NWB, either as substratum or adstratum.
Post by Reinhold (Rey) Aman
* German "Hundsfott" (scoundrel, villain) literally means "dog's cunt";
few native speakers of German using this term of abuse are aware that
"Fott" is related to and means "Fotze," the most vulgar German term for
female genitals.
The Monty Python chaps sneaked a variant of "Hundsfott" into one of
their sketches as part of the name of the dying German composer with the
long name: "Johann Gambolputty...Hundsfut...von Ulm."
I wonder whether the creators of Elmer Fudd, supposedly a caricature of
Mussolini, knew the etymology of <fud>.
Peter T. Daniels
2004-09-06 11:30:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas G. Kilday
The really interesting matter is the unshifted /p/ in Low German, for which
I can think of two explanations. One is Hans Kuhn's Nordwestblock, the
presumed group of IE-speakers located between Celts and Germans, with
neither the Celtic loss of initial /p/ nor the Germanic consonant-shift.
The other is borrowing from Vulgar Latin. Some scholars scoff at the
Nordwestblock, but it provides the only plausible etymology I have seen
Then I trust you won't scoff at Hamp's "Hellenic" and "Cimmerian" IE
substrata in Greek and Slavic respectively.
--
Peter T. Daniels ***@att.net
Douglas G. Kilday
2004-09-07 02:04:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Douglas G. Kilday
The really interesting matter is the unshifted /p/ in Low German, for which
I can think of two explanations. One is Hans Kuhn's Nordwestblock, the
presumed group of IE-speakers located between Celts and Germans, with
neither the Celtic loss of initial /p/ nor the Germanic consonant-shift.
The other is borrowing from Vulgar Latin. Some scholars scoff at the
Nordwestblock, but it provides the only plausible etymology I have seen
Then I trust you won't scoff at Hamp's "Hellenic" and "Cimmerian" IE
substrata in Greek and Slavic respectively.
I'm certainly not scoffing at his "Cimmerian", which I know nothing about,
but I think the derivation of <Thúle:> from the IE root *tel- found in L.
<tellus>, OIr <talam>, etc. is unwarranted, and the explanation of <I:talia>
as 'This Land' with the demonstrative *i- prefixed to the same root *tel- is
unconvincing. (Then again, Woody Guthrie's heirs would probably not scoff.)
Oliver Cromm
2004-09-07 17:35:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas G. Kilday
If Low German <Put>, <Pute>, and <Püt> come from Vulgar Latin, the
only plausible protoform I can think of is <pu:tidum> 'rotten,
stinking object', which is also the source of Old French <put>,
whence <pute>, <putain> and Spanish <puta>, Italian <puttana>.
A glance in a Latin dictionary gives me
| puteus : well, pit.

Related words seem to be English 'pit' and German 'Pfütze' (puddle,
O.E. putti, Dutch put, according to etymonline.com). I can easily
connect that to 'Pütt' being a mine in Western Germany, and with a
description of female genitals.
--
Oliver Cromm
'Conduct warfare on the most chivalrous principles,
there must ever be a touch of murder about it.'
William Howard Russell, 1860
Xenia
2004-09-25 14:46:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas G. Kilday
Post by Oliver Cromm
Post by Andrew Gwilliam
Post by Jacques Guy
And it's called "dinde" in French for
obvious reasons. However, why is it
called "Pute" in German? Now "dinde" in
French also means "une femme de moeurs
légères" while "pute" (also "putain")
is a whore, plain and simple. I think there
is something there, but how did "pute", whore,
get into German as turkey?
Is it the sound the animal makes?
One theory is that it's the sound people make to call it («put put»).
Isn't the femme-connection of dinde secondary? In German, an
unpleasant woman is called «[dumme] Pute».
That expression could well be connected with dialectal Low German
(Oldenburgish, East Frisian) <pu:t>, <pu:te>, <püt> 'weibliches
Geschlechtsteil', in which case it is parallel to English <dumb twat>, etc.
The apparent synonymy with <Pute> 'hen-turkey' would then be merely
folk-etymological.
I think "pute" follows an old pattern of hen/whore associations:
French words "cocotte" and "poule" may be compared with
Russian/Polish/Czech "kurva", an ancient word for whore derived from
"kur", viz, cock.

Xenia
Paul J Kriha
2004-09-25 15:10:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Xenia
Post by Douglas G. Kilday
Post by Oliver Cromm
Post by Andrew Gwilliam
Post by Jacques Guy
And it's called "dinde" in French for
obvious reasons. However, why is it
called "Pute" in German? Now "dinde" in
French also means "une femme de moeurs
légères" while "pute" (also "putain")
is a whore, plain and simple. I think there
is something there, but how did "pute", whore,
get into German as turkey?
Is it the sound the animal makes?
One theory is that it's the sound people make to call it («put put»).
Isn't the femme-connection of dinde secondary? In German, an
unpleasant woman is called «[dumme] Pute».
That expression could well be connected with dialectal Low German
(Oldenburgish, East Frisian) <pu:t>, <pu:te>, <püt> 'weibliches
Geschlechtsteil', in which case it is parallel to English <dumb twat>, etc.
The apparent synonymy with <Pute> 'hen-turkey' would then be merely
folk-etymological.
French words "cocotte" and "poule" may be compared with
Russian/Polish/Czech "kurva", an ancient word for whore derived from
"kur", viz, cock.
Xenia
Can you please quote your source for the Slavic origins of "kurva"
as derived from "kur"?

What is the origin of Jiddish "kurve"?

PJK
Harlan Messinger
2004-09-25 16:52:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul J Kriha
Post by Xenia
French words "cocotte" and "poule" may be compared with
Russian/Polish/Czech "kurva", an ancient word for whore derived from
"kur", viz, cock.
Xenia
Can you please quote your source for the Slavic origins of "kurva"
as derived from "kur"?
What is the origin of Jiddish "kurve"?
(*Y*iddish.) When I read Xenia's message I thought to myself, "So
that's where Yiddish got it from." By asking your question, are you
implying a reason to assume something different from the conclusion I
reached?
--
Harlan Messinger
Remove the first dot from my e-mail address.
Veuillez ôter le premier point de mon adresse de courriel.
Paul J Kriha
2004-09-26 05:18:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harlan Messinger
Post by Paul J Kriha
Post by Xenia
French words "cocotte" and "poule" may be compared with
Russian/Polish/Czech "kurva", an ancient word for whore derived from
"kur", viz, cock.
Xenia
Can you please quote your source for the Slavic origins of "kurva"
as derived from "kur"?
What is the origin of Jiddish "kurve"?
(*Y*iddish.) When I read Xenia's message I thought to myself, "So
that's where Yiddish got it from." By asking your question, are you
implying a reason to assume something different from the conclusion I
reached?
Actually no, I didn't mean to imply that. I agree, the most likely origin
of the Yiddish "kurve" is the Slavic "kurva", like it was with so many
other Yiddish words, unless it was borrowed directly from Germanic.

What I really should have asked was how come Xenia did not
suspect any relationship to Germanic "huora"(sp?), "whore".

Even today, in some regional dialects of Czech and Slovak it is "hura".

Paul JK
Post by Harlan Messinger
Harlan Messinger
Remove the first dot from my e-mail address.
Veuillez ôter le premier point de mon adresse de courriel.
Miguel Carrasquer
2004-09-25 16:03:03 UTC
Permalink
Latin/Romance pu:ta has nothing to do with hens. It's from
an old PIE root *pu(:)t- "stink", also "cunt".
Post by Xenia
French words "cocotte" and "poule" may be compared with
Russian/Polish/Czech "kurva", an ancient word for whore derived from
"kur", viz, cock.
Kurva (*kouru:, *kouruw-) is probably related to OHG huora,
E. whore (Pre-Gmc *ko:ra:). Chickens were only introduced
relatively late to Europe (Homer didn't kow them). Whores
are considerably older.

=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
***@wxs.nl
John A Rea
2004-09-29 00:28:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Miguel Carrasquer
Latin/Romance pu:ta has nothing to do with hens. It's from
an old PIE root *pu(:)t- "stink", also "cunt".
Post by Xenia
French words "cocotte" and "poule" may be compared with
Russian/Polish/Czech "kurva", an ancient word for whore derived from
"kur", viz, cock.
Kurva (*kouru:, *kouruw-) is probably related to OHG huora,
E. whore (Pre-Gmc *ko:ra:). Chickens were only introduced
relatively late to Europe (Homer didn't kow them). Whores
are considerably older.
Given a choice between young chickens and old whores, I know
what I'd decide on.

John
Post by Miguel Carrasquer
=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
Jacques Guy
2004-09-29 19:11:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by John A Rea
Given a choice between young chickens and old whores, I know
what I'd decide on.
I know that George Brassens would have preferred an old
whore to a young priest ("Gare au gorille"), but throw
in a young chicken, one with feathers, I mean, excluding
Zizi Jeanmaire ("Mon truc en plumes"), and I am no longer
sure.

Pantagruel would certainly have favoured a young chicken
(close enough to the gosling qui lui "faisoit au fondement
une volupté bien grande"), but not for the same use.
Nigel Greenwood
2004-09-29 09:02:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jacques Guy
Post by John A Rea
Given a choice between young chickens and old whores, I know
what I'd decide on.
I know that George Brassens would have preferred an old
whore to a young priest ("Gare au gorille")
Wasn't it a judge?

Nigel

ScriptMaster language resources (Persian/Turkish/Modern & Classical
Greek/Russian/Romanian/Esperanto/IPA):
http://www.elgin.free-online.co.uk

New! EsperScript:
http://www.elgin.free-online.co.uk/esperanto.htm
Jacques Guy
2004-09-30 08:17:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nigel Greenwood
Wasn't it a judge?
In the song?

Yes, it was a judge. But it wasn't an old _whore_ either,
just a _very_ old woman, from which we can surmise his
preference, given a choice between un jeune curé and une
vieille pute. Just like if Pantagruel had had to choose
between a sheet of sandpaper and a fluffy young chick for a
torche-cul.
Nigel Greenwood
2004-09-30 08:33:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jacques Guy
Post by Nigel Greenwood
Wasn't it a judge?
In the song?
Yes, it was a judge. But it wasn't an old _whore_ either,
just a _very_ old woman, from which we can surmise his
preference, given a choice between un jeune curé and une
vieille pute.
How did this jeune curé enter the discussion? Un jeune flic (poulet)
I could understand ...

Nigel

ScriptMaster language resources (Persian/Turkish/Modern & Classical
Greek/Russian/Romanian/Esperanto/IPA):
http://www.elgin.free-online.co.uk

New! EsperScript:
http://www.elgin.free-online.co.uk/esperanto.htm
Jacques Guy
2004-10-01 03:18:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nigel Greenwood
How did this jeune curé enter the discussion? Un jeune flic (poulet)
I could understand ...
Sheer randomness, I guess. And BTW, strange thing: un flic is
un poulet, but a female flic is "une fliquette", never "une
poulette". Language, she is not logical.

John A Rea
2004-09-30 00:50:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jacques Guy
Post by John A Rea
Given a choice between young chickens and old whores, I know
what I'd decide on.
I know that George Brassens would have preferred an old
whore to a young priest ("Gare au gorille"), but throw
in a young chicken, one with feathers, I mean, excluding
Zizi Jeanmaire ("Mon truc en plumes"), and I am no longer
sure.
Pantagruel would certainly have favoured a young chicken
(close enough to the gosling qui lui "faisoit au fondement
une volupté bien grande"), but not for the same use.
And according to "an old near eastern saying,

A wife to bear children
A boy for pleasure
A goat for ecstasy!

Jac,
Paul J Kriha
2004-09-29 08:17:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by John A Rea
Post by Miguel Carrasquer
Latin/Romance pu:ta has nothing to do with hens. It's from
an old PIE root *pu(:)t- "stink", also "cunt".
Post by Xenia
French words "cocotte" and "poule" may be compared with
Russian/Polish/Czech "kurva", an ancient word for whore derived from
"kur", viz, cock.
Kurva (*kouru:, *kouruw-) is probably related to OHG huora,
E. whore (Pre-Gmc *ko:ra:). Chickens were only introduced
relatively late to Europe (Homer didn't kow them). Whores
are considerably older.
Given a choice between young chickens and old whores, I know
what I'd decide on.
Experience?
PJK
Post by John A Rea
John
Post by Miguel Carrasquer
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
Rolleston
2004-08-31 22:30:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jacques Guy
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
for why the bird is called "turkey"
[whew!]
And it's called "dinde" in French for
obvious reasons. However, why is it
called "Pute" in German? Now "dinde" in
French also means "une femme de moeurs
légères" while "pute" (also "putain")
is a whore, plain and simple. I think there
is something there, but how did "pute", whore,
get into German as turkey?
http://tinyurl.com/5se4h
http://tinyurl.com/6fg3s

We are all finite state automata. I've said it before.

R.
Jacques Guy
2004-09-01 15:48:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rolleston
http://tinyurl.com/5se4h
http://tinyurl.com/6fg3s
Those are two oldish posts from me where I wrote
about my puzzlement at German "Pute" = French
"dinde".

I was hoping to get an answer, you know.
Rolleston
2004-09-01 20:43:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jacques Guy
Post by Rolleston
http://tinyurl.com/5se4h
http://tinyurl.com/6fg3s
about my puzzlement at German "Pute" = French
"dinde".
I was hoping to get an answer, you know.
Exactly what I was looking for when I found your earlier
messages. I'll let you know if an answer comes my way.

R4 announcer (evidently a "new scientist"):

"It [pi] is the most detailed number in nature"

R.
Andrew Gwilliam
2004-09-01 21:18:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rolleston
Post by Jacques Guy
Post by Rolleston
http://tinyurl.com/5se4h
http://tinyurl.com/6fg3s
about my puzzlement at German "Pute" = French
"dinde".
I was hoping to get an answer, you know.
Exactly what I was looking for when I found your earlier
messages. I'll let you know if an answer comes my way.
"It [pi] is the most detailed number in nature"
Allowing for a 3% margin of error, of course.
--
Andrew Gwilliam
To email me, replace "bottomless_pit" with "silverhelm"
howard richler
2004-09-02 22:53:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jacques Guy
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
for why the bird is called "turkey"
[whew!]
And it's called "dinde" in French for
obvious reasons. However, why is it
called "Pute" in German? Now "dinde" in
French also means "une femme de moeurs
légères" while "pute" (also "putain")
is a whore, plain and simple. I think there
is something there, but how did "pute", whore,
get into German as turkey?
Is "pute" actually the word for "whore" in German? I inputted the word
into a German-English dictionary and got a different answer. Also, it
would be logical for this to be the word in a Romance language but not
necessarily in German.
Jacques Guy
2004-09-03 18:27:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by howard richler
Is "pute" actually the word for "whore" in German?
Not to my knowledge.
Post by howard richler
I inputted the word
into a German-English dictionary and got a different answer.
"Turkey" wasn't it?

What made me take notice is "Putenbrust" = "turkey breast".
I drew a bilingual friend's attention to it and from
then on we called it, when speaking French, "nichon de
pute." For example:

-- Qu'est-ce qu'on pourrait faire à manger ce soir?
-- Du nichon de pute?
-- Encore du nichon de pute!

She definitely hadn't connected "Pute" with "pute" (whore)
and she'd been living Germany for years. So I doubt
very much that "Pute" might also mean "whore" in German.
Pieter
2004-09-03 02:41:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jacques Guy
Post by howard richler
Is "pute" actually the word for "whore" in German?
Not to my knowledge.
Post by howard richler
I inputted the word
into a German-English dictionary and got a different answer.
"Turkey" wasn't it?
What made me take notice is "Putenbrust" = "turkey breast".
I drew a bilingual friend's attention to it and from
then on we called it, when speaking French, "nichon de
-- Qu'est-ce qu'on pourrait faire à manger ce soir?
-- Du nichon de pute?
-- Encore du nichon de pute!
She definitely hadn't connected "Pute" with "pute" (whore)
and she'd been living Germany for years. So I doubt
very much that "Pute" might also mean "whore" in German.
Never heard of this. They have "Nutte" if that's what you mean and it
doesn't seem very courteous, don't ask me what it's derived from. btw Do
we know by now why a turkey would be called Peru in whatever language it
was or did I miss something? Still curious.

Cheers,

Pieter
Peter Dy
2004-09-03 02:58:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pieter
Post by Jacques Guy
Post by howard richler
Is "pute" actually the word for "whore" in German?
Not to my knowledge.
Post by howard richler
I inputted the word
into a German-English dictionary and got a different answer.
"Turkey" wasn't it?
What made me take notice is "Putenbrust" = "turkey breast".
I drew a bilingual friend's attention to it and from
then on we called it, when speaking French, "nichon de
-- Qu'est-ce qu'on pourrait faire à manger ce soir?
-- Du nichon de pute?
-- Encore du nichon de pute!
She definitely hadn't connected "Pute" with "pute" (whore)
and she'd been living Germany for years. So I doubt
very much that "Pute" might also mean "whore" in German.
Never heard of this.
See O. Cromm's post in this thread. Or see Wahrig, which says "Pute" is a
"Schimpfwort" for a girl or woman, especially as "dumme Pute" or
"eingebildete Pute." Harper-Collins gives "silly goose" for the first, and
"conceited/stuck-up madam" for the latter.

Peter



They have "Nutte" if that's what you mean and it
Post by Pieter
doesn't seem very courteous, don't ask me what it's derived from. btw Do
we know by now why a turkey would be called Peru in whatever language it
was or did I miss something? Still curious.
Cheers,
Pieter
Jacques Guy
2004-09-03 23:11:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Dy
See O. Cromm's post in this thread. Or see Wahrig, which says "Pute" is a
"Schimpfwort" for a girl or woman, especially as "dumme Pute" or
"eingebildete Pute." Harper-Collins gives "silly goose" for the first, and
"conceited/stuck-up madam" for the latter.
Close enough to the French "dinde", the sort without wings
and no feathers (or feathers in their hats, at most).

Still, "Pute" has to be borrowed from French, and in that
meaning approximately. So how did it come to have the
other meaning too, the one of "dinde = turkey"?

I find that really strange.
Peter Dy
2004-09-03 07:13:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jacques Guy
Post by Peter Dy
See O. Cromm's post in this thread. Or see Wahrig, which says "Pute" is a
"Schimpfwort" for a girl or woman, especially as "dumme Pute" or
"eingebildete Pute." Harper-Collins gives "silly goose" for the first, and
"conceited/stuck-up madam" for the latter.
Close enough to the French "dinde", the sort without wings
and no feathers (or feathers in their hats, at most).
Still, "Pute" has to be borrowed from French, and in that
meaning approximately. So how did it come to have the
other meaning too, the one of "dinde = turkey"?
I'm not so sure. Why not "Pute" from Low German "puteren" or from some
pre-Germanic substratum to describe the bird, and then only later a
figurative usage of that to describe a silly or annoying female? Like in
the English "silly goose"?

That's how Wahrig presents it. It first gives "Truthenne". Then, secondly,
it gives: "[figurative/colloquial/swearword] girl, woman."

After all, animal names still hold quite a bit of power as cuss words in
German, unlike in English and some other languages. And German literature
is barren comapred to French literature when it comes to mentioning
prostitutes. The beautiful, touching ending to Flaubert's Sentimental
Education, you're just not going to find in German lit.

Peter
Donna Richoux
2004-09-03 23:22:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jacques Guy
Post by Jacques Guy
Post by Peter Dy
See O. Cromm's post in this thread. Or see Wahrig, which says "Pute" is
a
Post by Jacques Guy
Post by Peter Dy
"Schimpfwort" for a girl or woman, especially as "dumme Pute" or
"eingebildete Pute." Harper-Collins gives "silly goose" for the first,
and
Post by Jacques Guy
Post by Peter Dy
"conceited/stuck-up madam" for the latter.
Close enough to the French "dinde", the sort without wings
and no feathers (or feathers in their hats, at most).
Still, "Pute" has to be borrowed from French,
Or somewhere else, or not at all. "Puta" is a whore in Spanish also. Was
it Latin? I don't find it in the Perseus dictionary... A site on the
origins of slang says:

Fr. putain "prostitute," from O.Fr. pute, probably
from fem. of V.L. *puttus (cf. O.It. putta "girl"),
from L. putus, with derogatory sense.

And Perseus does have:

putus , i, m., another form of pusus, a boy
Post by Jacques Guy
and in that
Post by Jacques Guy
meaning approximately. So how did it come to have the
other meaning too, the one of "dinde = turkey"?
I'm not so sure. Why not "Pute" from Low German "puteren" or from some
pre-Germanic substratum to describe the bird, and then only later a
figurative usage of that to describe a silly or annoying female? Like in
the English "silly goose"?
I agree.
Post by Jacques Guy
That's how Wahrig presents it. It first gives "Truthenne". Then, secondly,
it gives: "[figurative/colloquial/swearword] girl, woman."
Similarly, the ARTFL collection shows "dinde," meaning the bird, in
their 1762 dictionary, explained then as

On appelle ainsi quelquefois Une poule-d'Inde.

While it's not until the 1932 dictionary that you find:

Il s'emploie par plaisanterie pour désigner une Femme niaise, stupide.

So it's a modern development, rather like calling someone a "turkey"
(loser) in the US.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
Rolleston
2004-09-04 00:27:19 UTC
Permalink
Donna Richoux wrote:
[...]
Post by Donna Richoux
Or somewhere else, or not at all. "Puta" is a whore in Spanish also. Was
it Latin? I don't find it in the Perseus dictionary... A site on the
Fr. putain "prostitute," from O.Fr. pute, probably
from fem. of V.L. *puttus (cf. O.It. putta "girl"),
from L. putus, with derogatory sense.
I would have thought that words like "puter" and "putidus"
would be more likely candidates: http://tinyurl.com/6d4gt

Lewis & Short write about "pus": http://tinyurl.com/66hbs

Guesswork only.

R.
Donna Richoux
2004-09-03 10:16:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pieter
btw Do
we know by now why a turkey would be called Peru in whatever language it
was or did I miss something? Still curious.
There was one post that had a plausible answer:

From: Luca <luca-07-***@nurfuerspam.de>
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: turkey/peru/portuguese
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 23:50:54 +0200
Message-ID:
<***@4ax.com>

That should show up here:
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=***@4ax
.com

It referred to this article in Portuguese:

http://educaterra.terra.com.br/sualingua/08/08_peru.htm

I tried running this through Google's translation tool and got the usual
laughable result. But I could puzzle out some meaning. It cautions
against "hasty etimologias". It has this central answer:

we [Portuguesse] serve them of topônimo [placename] Peru, during
a good [long] time, to assign to all Spanish America.

And a summary:

[The bird Meleagris gallopavo that we call] Peru came of Mexico,
but the English had thought that it had come of
Turkey; the Frenchmen, the Catalan, the Basques,
the Arabs, the Russians, the Jews of the world and
the proper Turks had all thought (with certain
reason) that it had come of India. The Spaniard
knew of where it came, but they had not called it
Mexico, preferring to point out it as an American
cousin of the pavão [peacock]. E we, Brazilians and
Portuguese, think that it had come of Peru...
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
howard richler
2004-09-03 16:38:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Donna Richoux
Post by Pieter
btw Do
we know by now why a turkey would be called Peru in whatever language it
was or did I miss something? Still curious.
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: turkey/peru/portuguese
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 23:50:54 +0200
.com
http://educaterra.terra.com.br/sualingua/08/08_peru.htm
I tried running this through Google's translation tool and got the usual
laughable result. But I could puzzle out some meaning. It cautions
we [Portuguesse] serve them of topônimo [placename] Peru, during
a good [long] time, to assign to all Spanish America.
[The bird Meleagris gallopavo that we call] Peru came of Mexico,
but the English had thought that it had come of
Turkey; the Frenchmen, the Catalan, the Basques,
the Arabs, the Russians, the Jews of the world and
the proper Turks had all thought (with certain
reason) that it had come of India. The Spaniard
knew of where it came, but they had not called it
Mexico, preferring to point out it as an American
cousin of the pavão [peacock]. E we, Brazilians and
Portuguese, think that it had come of Peru...
Is English the only language that called the bird "turkey" and was
this because the country "Turkey" represented Asia as a whole? Also,
in the thread there was a reference to turkeys being transported at
some point to India. When did this occur?
Peter T. Daniels
2004-09-03 17:08:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by howard richler
Post by Donna Richoux
Post by Pieter
btw Do
we know by now why a turkey would be called Peru in whatever language it
was or did I miss something? Still curious.
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: turkey/peru/portuguese
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 23:50:54 +0200
.com
http://educaterra.terra.com.br/sualingua/08/08_peru.htm
I tried running this through Google's translation tool and got the usual
laughable result. But I could puzzle out some meaning. It cautions
we [Portuguesse] serve them of topônimo [placename] Peru, during
a good [long] time, to assign to all Spanish America.
[The bird Meleagris gallopavo that we call] Peru came of Mexico,
but the English had thought that it had come of
Turkey; the Frenchmen, the Catalan, the Basques,
the Arabs, the Russians, the Jews of the world and
the proper Turks had all thought (with certain
reason) that it had come of India. The Spaniard
knew of where it came, but they had not called it
Mexico, preferring to point out it as an American
cousin of the pavão [peacock]. E we, Brazilians and
Portuguese, think that it had come of Peru...
Is English the only language that called the bird "turkey" and was
this because the country "Turkey" represented Asia as a whole? Also,
in the thread there was a reference to turkeys being transported at
some point to India. When did this occur?
"Turkey" was the Ottoman Empire, which was at the gates of Vienna in
those days -- hardly distant Asia!

Asia in general might have been "Tartary."
--
Peter T. Daniels ***@att.net
Donna Richoux
2004-09-03 17:22:53 UTC
Permalink
[discussing names for the turkey]
.com
Post by howard richler
Post by Donna Richoux
http://educaterra.terra.com.br/sualingua/08/08_peru.htm
I tried running this through Google's translation tool and got the usual
laughable result. But I could puzzle out some meaning. It cautions
we [Portuguesse] serve them of topônimo [placename] Peru, during
a good [long] time, to assign to all Spanish America.
[The bird Meleagris gallopavo that we call] Peru came of Mexico,
but the English had thought that it had come of
Turkey; the Frenchmen, the Catalan, the Basques,
the Arabs, the Russians, the Jews of the world and
the proper Turks had all thought (with certain
reason) that it had come of India. The Spaniard
knew of where it came, but they had not called it
Mexico, preferring to point out it as an American
cousin of the pavão [peacock]. E we, Brazilians and
Portuguese, think that it had come of Peru...
Is English the only language that called the bird "turkey"
It's the only one mentioned in that article, and it's the only one like
that in _The Concise Dictionary of 26 Languages_.
Post by howard richler
and was
this because the country "Turkey" represented Asia as a whole?
No, because it didn't. What makes you think it did? Is that the question
about "Did Asia once mean Asia Minor only?" I've shown at least twice
that isn't true.
Post by howard richler
Also,
in the thread there was a reference to turkeys being transported at
some point to India. When did this occur?
What that Portuguese article says -- and really, it sounds quite
believable to me -- is that the old name referred to the "India" or
"Indies" that were in the *New World*. Not the Old World. The poor
autotranslation:

After all, this had been the famous mistake of
Columbus: when stepping on in the evenness of the
virgin beach, it thought that fond of it had so
coveted India, and to the naked and primitive men
who observed it, cut against the forest, it called
indians (what raised an ironic commentary of a
desrespeitoso historian: "That low concept had it
of India, my God"). Therefore, in the most perfect
gaulesa logic, the Frenchmen had called the new bird
coq d'Inde ("rooster of India"), that he evolved for
dinde, its current form.

If this is true, anyone who claims that the bird truly did come from
(East) India, would have engaged in a sort of wishful history. Or that
it was confused with another bird that did come from (East) India. On
the other hand, people in the 1500s or whenever might naturally have
assumed that it *did* come from (East) India *because* of its name --
that principle shows up in the names of other objects as well, like
people who think oranges must have come from (or via) Orange, France.

I really can't make sense out of what that article has to say about the
English word "turkey" and the merchants of the Mediterranean. Perhaps
our learned colleagues at sci.lang include Portuguese among their many
skills.

This guy might be full of hot air, but the site appears to be about
Portuguese etymology, and perhaps someone else can judge whether it is
reliable. Was "Peru" truly a name in Portuguese for America? After all,
the idea that the bird-name "peru" might simply be an imitative gobble
noise is quite tempting.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
Don Aitken
2004-09-03 18:28:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Donna Richoux
This guy might be full of hot air, but the site appears to be about
Portuguese etymology, and perhaps someone else can judge whether it is
reliable. Was "Peru" truly a name in Portuguese for America? After all,
the idea that the bird-name "peru" might simply be an imitative gobble
noise is quite tempting.
Peru, as used in Spanish in the colonial period, meant the Viceroyalty
of Peru, which originally included the whole of Spanish South America.
Since all the Spanish territories bordering on Portuguese territory
were part of Peru, it makes sense that, to a Brazilian, "Peru" and
"Spanish America" would be pretty much the same thing.
--
Don Aitken

Mail to the addresses given in the headers is no longer being
read. To mail me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com".
CB
2004-09-03 18:45:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Donna Richoux
[discussing names for the turkey]
.com
Post by Donna Richoux
http://educaterra.terra.com.br/sualingua/08/08_peru.htm
I tried running this through Google's translation tool and got the usual
laughable result. But I could puzzle out some meaning. It cautions
[Good stuff cravenly snipped.]
Post by Donna Richoux
I really can't make sense out of what that article has to say about the
English word "turkey" and the merchants of the Mediterranean. Perhaps
our learned colleagues at sci.lang include Portuguese among their many
skills.
This guy might be full of hot air, but the site appears to be about
Portuguese etymology, and perhaps someone else can judge whether it is
reliable. Was "Peru" truly a name in Portuguese for America? After all,
the idea that the bird-name "peru" might simply be an imitative gobble
noise is quite tempting.
My Portuguese is better than Google's, and I don't even speak the language.

Loosely: "From the start, fashionable Englishmen called the bird "the
turkey", literally "the Turkey [bird]". To justify this choice, English
dictionaries explain that merchants from the eastern Mediterranean (what was
called the Levant) were known in England as "Turkey merchants", because that
region was then part of the Turkish Empire. They may have sold the turkey
along with their other wares, and the mix-up started then: they went to
calling it the Turkey cock and then, quite simply, the turkey."

The author of the account is not the guy whose website it's on, but an
unnamed gal ("uma professora"). She sounds like an interesting person to
know. CDB
Yusuf B Gursey
2004-09-04 01:33:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by CB
Post by Donna Richoux
[discussing names for the turkey]
.com
Post by Donna Richoux
Post by Donna Richoux
http://educaterra.terra.com.br/sualingua/08/08_peru.htm
I tried running this through Google's translation tool and got the
usual
Post by Donna Richoux
Post by Donna Richoux
laughable result. But I could puzzle out some meaning. It cautions
[Good stuff cravenly snipped.]
Post by Donna Richoux
I really can't make sense out of what that article has to say about the
English word "turkey" and the merchants of the Mediterranean. Perhaps
our learned colleagues at sci.lang include Portuguese among their many
skills.
This guy might be full of hot air, but the site appears to be about
Portuguese etymology, and perhaps someone else can judge whether it is
reliable. Was "Peru" truly a name in Portuguese for America? After all,
the idea that the bird-name "peru" might simply be an imitative gobble
noise is quite tempting.
My Portuguese is better than Google's, and I don't even speak the language.
Loosely: "From the start, fashionable Englishmen called the bird "the
turkey", literally "the Turkey [bird]". To justify this choice, English
dictionaries explain that merchants from the eastern Mediterranean (what was
called the Levant) were known in England as "Turkey merchants", because that
region was then part of the Turkish Empire. They may have sold the turkey
along with their other wares, and the mix-up started then: they went to
calling it the Turkey cock and then, quite simply, the turkey."
yes. see my post in this thread.

Egypt was called "Turkey" in its own right at that time because the
Mamlukes were originally Turkic and the Circassian successors
maintained contact with Turkic culture. the official name of the
mamluke state was ad-dawla(t)
at-turkiyya(t) i.e. "the Turkish State"
Post by CB
The author of the account is not the guy whose website it's on, but an
unnamed gal ("uma professora"). She sounds like an interesting person to
know. CDB
Peter T. Daniels
2004-09-03 21:44:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Donna Richoux
I really can't make sense out of what that article has to say about the
English word "turkey" and the merchants of the Mediterranean. Perhaps
our learned colleagues at sci.lang include Portuguese among their many
skills.
A thread about the majority language of Brazil has been barrelling
merrily along in that language for weeks, but the contributors don't
seem to read any other threads ...
--
Peter T. Daniels ***@att.net
Nigel Greenwood
2004-09-03 09:12:16 UTC
Permalink
Is "pute" actually the word for "whore" in German? I inputted ...
If "pute" is whore, what does "inputted" mean?

Nigel

ScriptMaster language resources (Persian/Turkish/Modern & Classical
Greek/Russian/Romanian/Esperanto/IPA):
http://www.elgin.free-online.co.uk

New! EsperScript:
http://www.elgin.free-online.co.uk/esperanto.htm
Yusuf B Gursey
2004-09-03 04:07:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jacques Guy
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
for why the bird is called "turkey"
[whew!]
And it's called "dinde" in French for
the bird was actually transported to India,
where it flourished, according to the article.
Post by Jacques Guy
obvious reasons. However, why is it
called "Pute" in German? Now "dinde" in
French also means "une femme de moeurs
légères" while "pute" (also "putain")
is a whore, plain and simple. I think there
is something there, but how did "pute", whore,
get into German as turkey?
Igor Sklar
2004-09-04 05:57:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jacques Guy
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
for why the bird is called "turkey"
[whew!]
And it's called "dinde" in French for
obvious reasons.
Cf. Ital. pollo d'India, Lat. pavo indicus -> Pol. indyk -> Russ. indyuk/indeika.

regards
Jacques Guy
2004-09-04 23:06:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Igor Sklar
Post by Jacques Guy
And it's called "dinde" in French for
obvious reasons.
Cf. Ital. pollo d'India, Lat. pavo indicus -> Pol. indyk -> Russ. indyuk/indeika.
Actually... in Italian "maize" is "granoturco" (Turkish
grain). We here again we do have a confusion Turkish =
American Indian via Indian.
Donna Richoux
2004-09-04 11:13:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jacques Guy
Post by Igor Sklar
Post by Jacques Guy
And it's called "dinde" in French for
obvious reasons.
Cf. Ital. pollo d'India, Lat. pavo indicus -> Pol. indyk -> Russ. indyuk/indeika.
Actually... in Italian "maize" is "granoturco" (Turkish
grain). We here again we do have a confusion Turkish =
American Indian via Indian.
Well, I can tell you an odd thing. The only decent corn-on-the-cob
(maize) I have ever found in this Dutch town is at the Turkish grocer's.
I chatted with the young man at the cash register, who said that it's
very popular in Turkey, you can by steamed ears from street vendors. I
forgot to ask where that particular corn/maize was grown; their goods
are not necessarily all imported from Turkey, but they do have a
flourishing shop showing a good feeling for vegetables.

So anyway, this suggests the possibility that corn/maize has been a
popular crop in Turkey for some time. And the climate is warm enough to
grow it. But it would take more work to show whether it was a
traditional crop and commonly exported -- in any form. (We don't need to
have the Europeans-think-maize-is-for-livestock discussion again.)

I hope you're seeing the other branch of this thread that discussed
"Turkey [Turkish] merchants".
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
Igor Sklar
2004-09-04 13:40:17 UTC
Permalink
Donna Richoux wrote....
Post by Donna Richoux
Post by Jacques Guy
Post by Igor Sklar
Post by Jacques Guy
And it's called "dinde" in French for
obvious reasons.
Cf. Ital. pollo d'India, Lat. pavo indicus -> Pol. indyk -> Russ. indyuk/indeika.
Actually... in Italian "maize" is "granoturco" (Turkish
grain). We here again we do have a confusion Turkish =
American Indian via Indian.
So anyway, this suggests the possibility that corn/maize has been a
popular crop in Turkey for some time. And the climate is warm enough to
grow it. But it would take more work to show whether it was a
traditional crop and commonly exported -- in any form. (We don't need to
have the Europeans-think-maize-is-for-livestock discussion again.)
We may be reasonably certain that maize was popular in Turkey, as it
was from Turkey that corn arrived to Eastern Europe:

Tur. kokoros ('maize') -> Rum. cucuruz, Bulg. kukuruz, Serb. kukorica,
Pol. kukurudza, Russ. kukuruza -> Germ. Kukuruz ('maize')

regards
Donna Richoux
2004-09-04 14:38:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Igor Sklar
Donna Richoux wrote....
Post by Donna Richoux
Post by Jacques Guy
Post by Igor Sklar
Post by Jacques Guy
And it's called "dinde" in French for
obvious reasons.
Cf. Ital. pollo d'India, Lat. pavo indicus -> Pol. indyk ->
Russ. indyuk/indeika.
Actually... in Italian "maize" is "granoturco" (Turkish
grain). We here again we do have a confusion Turkish =
American Indian via Indian.
So anyway, this suggests the possibility that corn/maize has been a
popular crop in Turkey for some time. And the climate is warm enough to
grow it. But it would take more work to show whether it was a
traditional crop and commonly exported -- in any form. (We don't need to
have the Europeans-think-maize-is-for-livestock discussion again.)
We may be reasonably certain that maize was popular in Turkey, as it
Tur. kokoros ('maize') -> Rum. cucuruz, Bulg. kukuruz, Serb. kukorica,
Pol. kukurudza, Russ. kukuruza -> Germ. Kukuruz ('maize')
Well, I'd prefer a historian declaring something like "Maize was a major
export crop in Anatolia in the 16th century" than merely reasoning
backwards from names.

Several places say that the first European name was "Turkish wheat" or
"Turkish grain" in Latin (Turcicum frumentum) but that that was based on
a mistake, not an actual description of origin.

I found an article with some entertaining discussion of the multiple
names of maize, including what the author thinks are many mistakes,
misapprehensions, and muddles. Too many to summarize here, please take a
look.

A. Candolle 1890. Origin of Cultivated Plants
http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/history/lecture04/r_4-2.html
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
Yusuf B Gursey
2004-09-04 15:15:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jacques Guy
Post by Igor Sklar
Post by Jacques Guy
And it's called "dinde" in French for
obvious reasons.
Cf. Ital. pollo d'India, Lat. pavo indicus -> Pol. indyk -> Russ. indyuk/indeika.
Actually... in Italian "maize" is "granoturco" (Turkish
grain). We here again we do have a confusion Turkish =
American Indian via Indian.
at least for the bird, it was named after the Eastern meditarenean
merchants who sold it.
Prai Jei
2004-08-31 21:04:43 UTC
Permalink
howard richler (or somebody else of the same name) wrote thusly in message
Post by howard richler
Does anyone know why the bird "turkey"' is aclled "peru" in
Portuguese? Many languages name it after India, like French and Hebrew
and English, of course names it after Turkey b/c of the mistaked
belief that the bird originated in parts of Asia. But where does
"peru" come into this?
Another fanciful notion of where the bird originally came from perhaps?
--
Paul Townsend
I put it down there, and when I went back to it, there it was GONE!

Interchange the alphabetic elements to reply
Peter Dy
2004-09-01 08:54:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by howard richler
Does anyone know why the bird "turkey"' is aclled "peru" in
Portuguese? Many languages name it after India, like French and Hebrew
and English, of course names it after Turkey b/c of the mistaked
belief that the bird originated in parts of Asia. But where does
"peru" come into this?
Just to add...

In Mexico, where it is a native bird and where it was the main source of
meat before the Spaniards came, it's "guajolote," from Náhuatl "huexolotl",
literally "gran monstruo."

Peter
Nigel Greenwood
2004-09-02 08:54:54 UTC
Permalink
"Peter Dy" <***@sbcglobal.net> wrote

<...>
Post by Peter Dy
In Mexico, where it is a native bird and where it was the main source of
meat before the Spaniards came, it's "guajolote," from Náhuatl "huexolotl",
literally "gran monstruo."
Any connection with "axolotl", which is said to mean "water servant"?

BTW Can someone tell me the derivation of the Italian word for
turkey: tacchino? A hasty googling turned this up:

"Tacchino è voce onomatopeica, dal verso dell'animale:tak tak."

Is this correct? The same source tells us that an alternative, N.
Italian term is "dindio", in line with other European languages.

Nigel

ScriptMaster language resources (Persian/Turkish/Modern & Classical
Greek/Russian/Romanian/Esperanto/IPA):
http://www.elgin.free-online.co.uk

New! EsperScript:
http://www.elgin.free-online.co.uk/esperanto.htm
Andrew Woode
2004-09-02 18:38:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nigel Greenwood
Any connection with "axolotl", which is said to mean "water servant"?
The last time I had occasion to consult a large Nahuatl dictionary, it
was rather non-commital on the meaning of _xolotl_. (a- does seem to
mean water). Elsewhere I've seen 'monster' and, thanks to Google in
part, 'doll', 'dog', 'servant', 'spirit', 'naked'. Clarification is
clearly required.
Peter Dy
2004-09-02 23:13:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Woode
Post by Nigel Greenwood
Any connection with "axolotl", which is said to mean "water servant"?
The last time I had occasion to consult a large Nahuatl dictionary, it
was rather non-commital on the meaning of _xolotl_. (a- does seem to
mean water). Elsewhere I've seen 'monster' and, thanks to Google in
part, 'doll', 'dog', 'servant', 'spirit', 'naked'. Clarification is
clearly required.
I'm only going by Mexican Spanish dictionaries, so I can't help with the
Náhuatl meanings. One of my books says, xolotl is "monstruo"; the other
gives "el furioso". Both of those are under the entry for turkey,
"guajolote."

Peter
Peter Dy
2004-09-03 08:14:23 UTC
Permalink
"Peter Dy" <***@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message news:JONZc.15145$***@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com...
[...]
Post by Peter Dy
I'm only going by Mexican Spanish dictionaries, so I can't help with the
Náhuatl meanings. One of my books says, xolotl is "monstruo"; the other
gives "el furioso". Both of those are under the entry for turkey,
"guajolote."
Hmm. Looking further in my dictionary, I see that one might also call a
turkey in Mexico by simply "xolo." Had only encountered "guajolote" and
"pavo." Of course, "xolo" is from "xolotl" too. And the <x> is pronounced
[S].

Peter
Douglas G. Kilday
2004-09-05 15:42:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nigel Greenwood
[...]
BTW Can someone tell me the derivation of the Italian word for
"Tacchino è voce onomatopeica, dal verso dell'animale:tak tak."
Is this correct? The same source tells us that an alternative, N.
Italian term is "dindio", in line with other European languages.
I don't know if that is correct, but I tend toward a suspicious view of most
onomatopoeic etymologies, given their rather arbitrary nature.

In this case <tacchino> 'turkey-cock of American origin' is so similar to
<tàccola> 'jackdaw' that possible derivation of the former from the latter
should at least be considered. <tàccola> is from Langobardic *<tahhala>
(cf. German <Dohle>) and its ending does not represent the Latin diminutive
suffix <-ula>, but the word could well be perceived as a diminutive of a
presumed root [takk-]. This root could then surface with other suffixes.
In particular the contrast between <bambino> 'child' and <bàmbola> 'child's
doll' comes to mind. If the turkey were likened to a large jackdaw,
<tacchino> and <tàccola> would produce a similar contrast.

This is, of course, pure guesswork. What is needed is the Italian
equivalent of the OED, or an Italian Brian M. Scott with access to one, for
dated citations and possible variants of <tacchino>.
Peter T. Daniels
2004-09-06 11:28:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas G. Kilday
Post by Nigel Greenwood
[...]
BTW Can someone tell me the derivation of the Italian word for
"Tacchino è voce onomatopeica, dal verso dell'animale:tak tak."
Is this correct? The same source tells us that an alternative, N.
Italian term is "dindio", in line with other European languages.
I don't know if that is correct, but I tend toward a suspicious view of most
onomatopoeic etymologies, given their rather arbitrary nature.
In this case <tacchino> 'turkey-cock of American origin' is so similar to
<tàccola> 'jackdaw' that possible derivation of the former from the latter
should at least be considered. <tàccola> is from Langobardic *<tahhala>
(cf. German <Dohle>) and its ending does not represent the Latin diminutive
suffix <-ula>, but the word could well be perceived as a diminutive of a
presumed root [takk-]. This root could then surface with other suffixes.
In particular the contrast between <bambino> 'child' and <bàmbola> 'child's
doll' comes to mind. If the turkey were likened to a large jackdaw,
<tacchino> and <tàccola> would produce a similar contrast.
Have you ever seen a turkey and a jackdaw?
Post by Douglas G. Kilday
This is, of course, pure guesswork. What is needed is the Italian
equivalent of the OED, or an Italian Brian M. Scott with access to one, for
dated citations and possible variants of <tacchino>.
--
Peter T. Daniels ***@att.net
Douglas G. Kilday
2004-09-07 01:39:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Douglas G. Kilday
[...]
In this case <tacchino> 'turkey-cock of American origin' is so similar to
<tàccola> 'jackdaw' that possible derivation of the former from the latter
should at least be considered. <tàccola> is from Langobardic *<tahhala>
(cf. German <Dohle>) and its ending does not represent the Latin diminutive
suffix <-ula>, but the word could well be perceived as a diminutive of a
presumed root [takk-]. This root could then surface with other suffixes.
In particular the contrast between <bambino> 'child' and <bàmbola> 'child's
doll' comes to mind. If the turkey were likened to a large jackdaw,
<tacchino> and <tàccola> would produce a similar contrast.
Have you ever seen a turkey and a jackdaw?
Have you ever seen an ostrich and a sparrow?

Have you ever read Xenophon's Anabasis, book 1, ch. 5? What do you think
<strouthoì hai megálai> are?
howard richler
2004-09-06 14:15:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas G. Kilday
Post by Nigel Greenwood
[...]
BTW Can someone tell me the derivation of the Italian word for
"Tacchino è voce onomatopeica, dal verso dell'animale:tak tak."
Is this correct? The same source tells us that an alternative, N.
Italian term is "dindio", in line with other European languages.
I don't know if that is correct, but I tend toward a suspicious view of most
onomatopoeic etymologies, given their rather arbitrary nature.
In this case <tacchino> 'turkey-cock of American origin' is so similar to
<tàccola> 'jackdaw' that possible derivation of the former from the latter
should at least be considered. <tàccola> is from Langobardic *<tahhala>
(cf. German <Dohle>) and its ending does not represent the Latin diminutive
suffix <-ula>, but the word could well be perceived as a diminutive of a
presumed root [takk-]. This root could then surface with other suffixes.
In particular the contrast between <bambino> 'child' and <bàmbola> 'child's
doll' comes to mind. If the turkey were likened to a large jackdaw,
<tacchino> and <tàccola> would produce a similar contrast.
This is, of course, pure guesswork. What is needed is the Italian
equivalent of the OED, or an Italian Brian M. Scott with access to one, for
dated citations and possible variants of <tacchino>.
I read online that in some dialects of Hindi, a turkey is referred to
as "peru pakshi" (Peru bird). Could someone verify this?

thanks
howard richler
2004-09-06 22:06:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by howard richler
Post by Douglas G. Kilday
Post by Nigel Greenwood
[...]
BTW Can someone tell me the derivation of the Italian word for
"Tacchino è voce onomatopeica, dal verso dell'animale:tak tak."
Is this correct? The same source tells us that an alternative, N.
Italian term is "dindio", in line with other European languages.
I don't know if that is correct, but I tend toward a suspicious view of most
onomatopoeic etymologies, given their rather arbitrary nature.
In this case <tacchino> 'turkey-cock of American origin' is so similar to
<tàccola> 'jackdaw' that possible derivation of the former from the latter
should at least be considered. <tàccola> is from Langobardic *<tahhala>
(cf. German <Dohle>) and its ending does not represent the Latin diminutive
suffix <-ula>, but the word could well be perceived as a diminutive of a
presumed root [takk-]. This root could then surface with other suffixes.
In particular the contrast between <bambino> 'child' and <bàmbola> 'child's
doll' comes to mind. If the turkey were likened to a large jackdaw,
<tacchino> and <tàccola> would produce a similar contrast.
This is, of course, pure guesswork. What is needed is the Italian
equivalent of the OED, or an Italian Brian M. Scott with access to one, for
dated citations and possible variants of <tacchino>.
I read online that in some dialects of Hindi, a turkey is referred to
as "peru pakshi" (Peru bird). Could someone verify this?
thanks
The Greek word for turkey is "gallapoula" (French bird). Is this
because French traders intriduced the bird to Greece, or is it for
some other reason?
Rex F. May
2004-09-06 22:20:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by howard richler
The Greek word for turkey is "gallapoula" (French bird). Is this
because French traders intriduced the bird to Greece, or is it for
some other reason?
I don't know, but I'll bet it's pejorative:)
Jacques Guy
2004-09-07 16:21:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rex F. May
Post by howard richler
The Greek word for turkey is "gallapoula" (French bird). Is this
because French traders intriduced the bird to Greece, or is it for
some other reason?
I don't know, but I'll bet it's pejorative:)
You bet it is! Just like the word for "parrot"!
Xenia
2004-09-25 17:15:53 UTC
Permalink
Paul J Kriha wrote...
Post by Paul J Kriha
Can you please quote your source for the Slavic origins of "kurva"
as derived from "kur"?
Why, of course Vasmer! He cites Kiparski, Sobolevski, Kohen,
Leventhal, etc. for evidence that kur've is a gen. form of Old Slavic
*kury.

The latter word was a femin. form of "kur", just like Old Slavic
*svekry was a femin. form of Old Slavic *svekr.
Post by Paul J Kriha
What is the origin of Jiddish "kurve"?
I believe the pan-Slavic word could be the source. The Slavic word is
quite old: per Vasmer, it is found even in Church Slavonic texts.

Xenia
willdereck
2004-09-29 11:11:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Xenia
Paul J Kriha wrote...
Post by Paul J Kriha
Can you please quote your source for the Slavic origins of "kurva"
as derived from "kur"?
Why, of course Vasmer! He cites Kiparski, Sobolevski, Kohen,
Leventhal, etc. for evidence that kur've is a gen. form of Old Slavic
*kury.
The latter word was a femin. form of "kur", just like Old Slavic
*svekry was a femin. form of Old Slavic *svekr.
Post by Paul J Kriha
What is the origin of Jiddish "kurve"?
I believe the pan-Slavic word could be the source. The Slavic word is
quite old: per Vasmer, it is found even in Church Slavonic texts.
Xenia
The word is borrowed from the Vlachs/Wallachs/Romanians which are
speakers of a Romance language. The words curva "the whore" and cur
"bottom", curul "the bottom" are in the Romanian language.
Noun Fem. Sg. curva
Sg. Nom. curva, Gen, a curvei, Dative curvei, Acc. pe curva, Voc.
curvo
Pl. Nom. curve, Gen. ale curvelor, Dative curvelor, Acc.pe curvele,
Voc. curvelor

These are words of Romanian origin. In Latin the word curva means bent
and currus means bottom, chariot. The Latin chair "sella curulis" was
the symbol of authority of the sitting members of the Roman Senat
called Curiati. The Consul, Praetor, Censor and Aedile had the highest
political authority in the Roman state. They were the "curule
magistrates", which had the right to sit on a special ivory folding
stool (sella curulis) and to wear the purple-bordered toga praetexta
and to have the fasces as a symbol of their authority.

CURULE (Lat. currus, chariot), the Roman epithet applied to the chair
of office, sella curulis, used by the curule or highest magistrates
and also by the emperors. This chair seems to have been originally
placed in the magistrates chariot (hence the name). It was inlaid with
ivory or in some cases made of it, had curved legs but no back, and
could be folded uplike a camp-stool. In English the word is used in
the general sense of official. (See CONSUL, PRAETOR, CENSOR and
AEDILE). 1911 Encyclopedia, T. Livius, Ab Urbe Condita.

KINGS of THRACE. Rhoemetalkes I. 11 BC-12 AD. Æ 15mm (2.64 gm). Fasces
/ Spear leaning left on sella curulis.

The Thracians/Dacians are known as the ancestors of the Romanians.
These coins prove that in the first century BC the Thracian kings had
the sella curulis and the fasces as symbols of their authority, which
indicates a kinship between the Thracians and the Romans. The Slavs
did not have any historical contact with the Romans. Between the time
when the Romans left Dacia and the coming of the Slavs in the Balkans
there were some hundreds years. The Latin word is currus and the word
cur was borrowed by Slavs from the Romanians, called by them Vlahs.

Will
Igor Sklar
2004-09-29 19:33:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by willdereck
Post by Xenia
Paul J Kriha wrote...
Post by Paul J Kriha
What is the origin of Jiddish "kurve"?
I believe the pan-Slavic word could be the source. The Slavic word is
quite old: per Vasmer, it is found even in Church Slavonic texts.
Xenia
The word is borrowed from the Vlachs/Wallachs/Romanians which are
speakers of a Romance language. The words curva "the whore" and cur
"bottom", curul "the bottom" are in the Romanian language.
Just one question: how many Yiddish words were borrowed from the Romanian?

regards
Xenia
2004-09-25 17:40:31 UTC
Permalink
Miguel Carrasquer wrote...
Chickens were only introduced relatively late to Europe
That's why there is no PIE word for chickens. Cocks and hens were
usually named after the sounds they make:
Fr chanteclair (from chanter),
Ru petukh (from pet'),
Ru kury, Gth hana, Lat gallus
(Homer didn't kow them).
But the Common Slavic was spoken some millenium after Homer's epics
had been written. And the Slavs definitely knew chickens, as they have
a common word for them.
Whores are considerably older.
But you can't deny that some languages euphemistically refer to penis
as cock, and to whores as chickens.

Xenia
Paul J Kriha
2004-09-26 04:50:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Xenia
Miguel Carrasquer wrote...
Chickens were only introduced relatively late to Europe
That's why there is no PIE word for chickens. Cocks and hens were
Fr chanteclair (from chanter),
Ru petukh (from pet'),
Ru kury, Gth hana, Lat gallus
(Homer didn't kow them).
But the Common Slavic was spoken some millenium after Homer's epics
had been written. And the Slavs definitely knew chickens, as they have
a common word for them.
Whores are considerably older.
But you can't deny that some languages euphemistically refer to penis
as cock, and to whores as chickens.
Xenia
Millennium here, millennium there, what the hell does it matter, vsjo rovno.

Paul JK
Miguel Carrasquer
2004-09-26 10:14:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Xenia
Miguel Carrasquer wrote...
Chickens were only introduced relatively late to Europe
That's why there is no PIE word for chickens. Cocks and hens were
Fr chanteclair (from chanter),
Ru petukh (from pet'),
Ru kury, Gth hana, Lat gallus
(Homer didn't kow them).
But the Common Slavic was spoken some millenium after Homer's epics
had been written. And the Slavs definitely knew chickens, as they have
a common word for them.
Yes.
Post by Xenia
Whores are considerably older.
But you can't deny that some languages euphemistically refer to penis
as cock, and to whores as chickens.
The same general observation goes for other animals, some of
which, like e.g. cats [chatte, pussy], are of even later
introduction.

I just don't think there's a good reason to link kury,
kurUv- "whore" to kurU, kura "cock; hen" in Slavic.

=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
***@wxs.nl
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