Discussion:
Surname suffixes
(too old to reply)
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
2004-04-02 21:43:49 UTC
Permalink
The meaning of some surname suffixes (-sen, -son, -s, -ez, -dóttir) and
prefixes (Mac-, Mc-, O'-) is well known. Recently I discussed other
suffixes with a friend but have no idea about their *literal* meaning.
My guess is that they mean "son of" and the like. Does anyone know the
literal meaning of the following six suffixes?

1. -tegui in Basque, as in "Inchaustegui"
2. -enko in Ukrainian, as in "Chernenko"
3. -nadze in Georgian, as in "Shevernadze"
4. -shvili in Georgian, as in "Shalikashvili"
5. -escu in Rumanian, as in "Popescu"
6. -opoulos in Greek, as in "Petropoulos".
--
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
Santa Rosa, CA 95402
USA
Thomas Widmann
2004-04-02 22:34:53 UTC
Permalink
Does anyone know the literal meaning of the following six suffixes?
1. -tegui in Basque, as in "Inchaustegui"
The Basque noun _tegi_ means "stable, corral, pen, enclosed space for
livestock" according to my dictionary, but it is widespread as well as
a suffix meaning "place for ...", such as _lorategi_ "flower garden"
(from _lore_ "flower" + _tegi_).
3. -nadze in Georgian, as in "Shevernadze"
The ending is _-dze_ "son".
4. -shvili in Georgian, as in "Shalikashvili"
Child (as in offspring, not as in infant).

/Thomas
--
Thomas Widmann ***@bibulus.org http://www.twid.bibulus.org
Flat 3/2, 54 Mavisbank Gardens, Glasgow G51 1HL, Scotland, EU
*** Ny gruppe om nordiske sprog: europa.linguas.germanic.nord ***
unknown
2004-04-02 22:54:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thomas Widmann
Post by Reinhold (Rey) Aman
3. -nadze in Georgian, as in "Shevernadze"
The ending is _-dze_ "son".
And the name is Shevardnadze, I think.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com/index/whatsnew.htm update 2 april 2004
Peter T. Daniels
2004-04-03 00:21:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
Post by Thomas Widmann
Post by Reinhold (Rey) Aman
3. -nadze in Georgian, as in "Shevernadze"
The ending is _-dze_ "son".
And the name is Shevardnadze, I think.
Accuracy has never been a major concern of OP.
--
Peter T. Daniels ***@att.net
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
2004-04-03 07:46:48 UTC
Permalink
[R.A.]
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by unknown
Post by Thomas Widmann
Post by Reinhold (Rey) Aman
3. -nadze in Georgian, as in "Shevernadze"
The ending is _-dze_ "son".
Thank you, Thomas, Miguel, and everyone else who's answered my query.
I'll pass on your excellent replies to my friend in Trinidad (who has no
access to the Net).

If one does not know much about a certain language, it's very difficult
to figure out the morpheme boundaries; think of such "exotic" languages
as Hungarian, Finnish, Quechua, Basque, or Eskimo, for example. Even
"easy" languages like German are treacherous for the neophyte. What are
the morphemes in _Urinsekt_? Are they {Ur}+{Insekt} or {Urin}+{Sekt}?
The meaning of this word changes drastically if one picks the wrong
morpheme boundary.

It's similar with names. "Shevernadze" (the name supplied by my friend),
"Shevardnadze," and a Georgian friend's name, "Mindadze," end in
<-adze>, thus it's logical to assume that the boundary is before the
<-a> and the suffix is <-adze>, even though it turned out to be <-dze>.

In Modern Greek surnames, too, the morpheme boundary of the suffix
*seems* to be before <-opoulos>, because the names I know (Petropoulos,
Diamantopoulos, Papadimitrokopoulos) all end in <-opoulos>.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by unknown
And the name is Shevardnadze, I think.
You're right, Ruud, if you mean the famous politician who was just
driven from power. However, my friend wrote the name "Shevernadze,"
which either is a misspelling of the politician's name or another
Georgian name. In either case, it makes no difference, as both names
end in <-nadze>.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Accuracy has never been a major concern of OP.
And now comes my favorite sport, figuratively shoving a pointy stick up
Petey's arse. I can't kick him in the balls, as little Petey was
snipped years ago, which seriously affected his personality, changed his
singing voice into the high-pitched castrato range, and turned him into
the bitter *Snippy Little Bitch* [(TM) and © Reinhold Aman] we all love
to hate.

Petey dear, you're the proverbial glutton for punishment. Thanks to
your serious personality disorder, you just ache to be abused; and as
I'm a most obliging fellow, I'll gladly still your hunger for more
masochistic treatment.

Why, just yesterday, when I taught English to Mexican immigrants, I was
thinking of you, Petey. One of the mothers had brought along her
10-year-old boy, Jesús, a very cute-looking mixture of Aztec Indian and
Hispanic. When he bent over to pick up a pencil, he displayed a
charmingly tight little ass. My first thought was, naturally, "My God!
If Petey were here and saw this cute arselet, his blood pressure would
shoot up to 180/140 and he'd cream his silken pink panties!" Honestly,
whenever I see a cute little boy, I think of you, Petey, the aged &
lonely chicken hawk.

Mais revenons à nous moutons, as the Walloons say.

So, "accuracy has never been a major concern" of mine.

I challenge you to document your horseshit. Prove it, old poof; don't
just talk shit and then skip away like a gay virgin. Unlike you, Petey,
I'm a *man* and can take constructive criticism. Don't you ever get
embarrassed by the shite you post, by the false accusations you make, by
the slanderous crap you pull?

I know that your self-esteem is exceedingly low, Petey, but with your
habitual attempts at trying to drag others down to your level of black
despair, you're sinking deeper and deeper into your self-dug slime-pit.

When you're documenting my alleged lack of accuracy, finally also tell
us which languages *you* have acquired; I mean languages you speak,
write, read, and understand at least fairly well. Don't count your
mother tongue, whose quality is barely above the level of a recent
Chinese immigrant's English.

And tell us, Petey, what brought about your snippy-little-bitch
contribution to this thread? Are you still miffed because I exposed
your ignorance regarding the subjunctive in English? Or are you still
smarting for not being admired for having been blurbed?

Speaking of which, how did your Mummy react when you raced to her bed
and gushed that you've been blurbed? Did she beam, "My son, the
blurbee! I'm soooo proud of you, my sweet little Petey darling!"? Or
did she react as usual, "Blurbed, shmurbed! Fuck off, you old creep.
Get yourself a nice woman, for Chrissake. All the neighbors are talking
about you and them little spics you're bringing home at night."?

Anyway, Petey, if you're yearning for yet another pointy stick up your
hemorrhoidal rectum, just keep posting shit about me.
--
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
M A L E D I C T A
P.O. Box 14123
Santa Rosa, CA 95402, USA
http://www.sonic.net/maledicta/contents13.html
Jacques Guy
2004-04-04 05:10:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Reinhold (Rey) Aman
Post by unknown
And the name is Shevardnadze, I think.
You're right, Ruud, if you mean the famous politician who was just
driven from power.
I was curious, as I remembered "Shevarnadze". Pravda spells it
Shevarnadze, viz:

http://english.pravda.ru/cis/2002/08/27/35388.html

But most other sites spell it Shevardnadze.
Post by Reinhold (Rey) Aman
And now comes my favorite sport, figuratively shoving a pointy stick up
Petey's arse. I can't kick him in the balls, as little Petey was
[snipped]

You two love birds are becoming an unbecoming embarrassment. Can't
you do this in the privacy of your own newsgroup?
Thomas Widmann
2004-04-03 11:27:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jacques Guy
I was curious, as I remembered "Shevarnadze". Pravda spells it
http://english.pravda.ru/cis/2002/08/27/35388.html
But most other sites spell it Shevardnadze.
Which is correct. As far as I know, the name is derived from a
dialectal form of Georgian _shavardeni_ "Falco peregrinus".

/Thomas
--
Thomas Widmann ***@bibulus.org http://www.twid.bibulus.org
Flat 3/2, 54 Mavisbank Gardens, Glasgow G51 1HL, Scotland, EU
*** Ny gruppe om nordiske sprog: europa.linguas.germanic.nord ***
Jacques Guy
2004-04-04 05:46:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thomas Widmann
Which is correct. As far as I know, the name is derived from a
dialectal form of Georgian _shavardeni_ "Falco peregrinus".
Which is all the more puzzling, as Russian is not
shy of consonant clusters. Mystère et boules de gomme
(and I'm right out of gum).
Thomas Widmann
2004-04-03 11:54:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thomas Widmann
Which is correct. As far as I know, the name is derived from a
dialectal form of Georgian _shavardeni_ "Falco peregrinus".
Which is all the more puzzling, as Russian is not shy of consonant
clusters.
Why involve Russian in this? Surely the only relevant languages are
Georgian and perhaps Mingrelian.

/Thomas
--
Thomas Widmann ***@bibulus.org http://www.twid.bibulus.org
Flat 3/2, 54 Mavisbank Gardens, Glasgow G51 1HL, Scotland, EU
*** Ny gruppe om nordiske sprog: europa.linguas.germanic.nord ***
piotrpanek
2004-04-05 08:46:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thomas Widmann
Why involve Russian in this? Surely the only relevant languages are
Georgian and perhaps Mingrelian.
Because, irrespectively of the original pronunciation, Soviet minister's
name had to be ruthenised (and "The Pravda" was cited). Anyway, in
Poland (both in Soviet and post-Soviet times) it has always been written
"Szewardnadze" and I've never seen it writen without "d"
Post by Thomas Widmann
/Thomas
piotrek
Miguel Carrasquer
2004-04-02 23:11:34 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 02 Apr 2004 21:43:49 GMT, "Reinhold (Rey) Aman"
Post by Reinhold (Rey) Aman
2. -enko in Ukrainian, as in "Chernenko"
5. -escu in Rumanian, as in "Popescu"
These are adjectival suffixes, roughly "he of...", "that
of..." (cf. Spanish -ez from Latin -ici "those of...").
Post by Reinhold (Rey) Aman
6. -opoulos in Greek, as in "Petropoulos".
poulos, something like "child" (not in the std. language).

=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
***@wxs.nl
Harlan Messinger
2004-04-02 23:18:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Miguel Carrasquer
On Fri, 02 Apr 2004 21:43:49 GMT, "Reinhold (Rey) Aman"
Post by Reinhold (Rey) Aman
2. -enko in Ukrainian, as in "Chernenko"
5. -escu in Rumanian, as in "Popescu"
These are adjectival suffixes, roughly "he of...", "that
of..." (cf. Spanish -ez from Latin -ici "those of...").
Same as Italian -esco, French -esque? (English -ish?)
Post by Miguel Carrasquer
Post by Reinhold (Rey) Aman
6. -opoulos in Greek, as in "Petropoulos".
poulos, something like "child" (not in the std. language).
=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
Brian M. Scott
2004-04-03 04:13:53 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 2 Apr 2004 18:18:09 -0500 "Harlan Messinger"
Post by Harlan Messinger
Post by Miguel Carrasquer
On Fri, 02 Apr 2004 21:43:49 GMT, "Reinhold (Rey) Aman"
Post by Reinhold (Rey) Aman
2. -enko in Ukrainian, as in "Chernenko"
5. -escu in Rumanian, as in "Popescu"
These are adjectival suffixes, roughly "he of...", "that
of..." (cf. Spanish -ez from Latin -ici "those of...").
Same as Italian -esco, French -esque? (English -ish?)
The Italian and French go with <-ish>. If I'm not mistaken,
<-icus, -ici> actually goes with the English adjectival <-y>
(OE <-ig>). But I hadn't realized that the source of
Spanish <-ez> was settled; the (rather old) material easily
available to me offered a variety of possibilities.

[...]

Brian
Miguel Carrasquer
2004-04-03 14:03:53 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 2 Apr 2004 23:13:53 -0500, "Brian M. Scott"
Post by Brian M. Scott
The Italian and French go with <-ish>. If I'm not mistaken,
<-icus, -ici> actually goes with the English adjectival <-y>
(OE <-ig>). But I hadn't realized that the source of
Spanish <-ez> was settled; the (rather old) material easily
available to me offered a variety of possibilities.
The matter may indeed not be settled, but -ici > -ez is the
best explanation that I'm aware of. It's better in any case
than derivation from the Basque instrumental suffix -z,
which one sometimes sees (the instrumental is not used in
Basque to make surnames).

=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
***@wxs.nl
Harlan Messinger
2004-04-02 23:16:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Reinhold (Rey) Aman
The meaning of some surname suffixes (-sen, -son, -s, -ez, -dóttir) and
prefixes (Mac-, Mc-, O'-) is well known. Recently I discussed other
suffixes with a friend but have no idea about their *literal* meaning.
My guess is that they mean "son of" and the like. Does anyone know the
literal meaning of the following six suffixes?
1. -tegui in Basque, as in "Inchaustegui"
Is it -tegui or -egui? I ask because of the U.S. Latina TV personality
Cristina Saralegui.
Post by Reinhold (Rey) Aman
2. -enko in Ukrainian, as in "Chernenko"
3. -nadze in Georgian, as in "Shevernadze"
4. -shvili in Georgian, as in "Shalikashvili"
5. -escu in Rumanian, as in "Popescu"
6. -opoulos in Greek, as in "Petropoulos".
I came across the name Mihaly Csikszentmihaly last night, and wondered what
"csikszent" might mean in Hungarian.
unknown
2004-04-02 23:23:38 UTC
Permalink
Fri, 2 Apr 2004 18:16:33 -0500: "Harlan Messinger"
Post by Harlan Messinger
I came across the name Mihaly Csikszentmihaly last night, and wondered what
"csikszent" might mean in Hungarian.
Szent Mihaly clearly means Saint Micheal. Don't know about Csik.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com/index/whatsnew.htm update 2 april 2004
Aniko Szabo
2004-04-05 22:00:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
Fri, 2 Apr 2004 18:16:33 -0500: "Harlan Messinger"
Post by Harlan Messinger
I came across the name Mihaly Csikszentmihaly last night, and wondered what
"csikszent" might mean in Hungarian.
Szent Mihaly clearly means Saint Micheal. Don't know about Csik.
Csik is a historical region in Transylvania. Csikszentmihaly is one of
the many towns there. In modern Hungarian "csik" means
"stripe/band/strip" and you are welcome to speculate how it relates to
the name of a region.
By the way, if you want to search yourself, the spelling is Csík (with
an accent on i).

Aniko
Miguel Carrasquer
2004-04-03 00:26:45 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 2 Apr 2004 18:16:33 -0500, "Harlan Messinger"
Post by Harlan Messinger
Post by Reinhold (Rey) Aman
The meaning of some surname suffixes (-sen, -son, -s, -ez, -dóttir) and
prefixes (Mac-, Mc-, O'-) is well known. Recently I discussed other
suffixes with a friend but have no idea about their *literal* meaning.
My guess is that they mean "son of" and the like. Does anyone know the
literal meaning of the following six suffixes?
1. -tegui in Basque, as in "Inchaustegui"
Is it -tegui or -egui? I ask because of the U.S. Latina TV personality
Cristina Saralegui.
Both. And -degui. All the variants are spelt without <u>
in modern Basque orthography (-egi, -tegi, -degi).

The basic variation is -tegi ~ -egi, and it's hard to
specify a rule. The suffix was once probably a word in its
own right ("house", from Celtic *teg-es- => OIr. tech, We.
ty "house"), and as such it regularly lost initial *t-. In
old compounds the -t- remained (becoming -d- after e.g.
/n/), but more recent compounds used the form *egi (which
survives in its diminutive form *eg(i)-xe > etxe "house").


=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
***@wxs.nl
Yusuf B Gursey
2004-04-03 17:18:39 UTC
Permalink
In sci.lang "Reinhold (Rey) Aman" <***@sonic.net> wrote in <***@sonic.net>:
: The meaning of some surname suffixes (-sen, -son, -s, -ez, -d�ttir) and
: prefixes (Mac-, Mc-, O'-) is well known. Recently I discussed other
: suffixes with a friend but have no idea about their *literal* meaning.
: My guess is that they mean "son of" and the like. Does anyone know the
: literal meaning of the following six suffixes?

: 1. -tegui in Basque, as in "Inchaustegui"
: 2. -enko in Ukrainian, as in "Chernenko"
: 3. -nadze in Georgian, as in "Shevernadze"
: 4. -shvili in Georgian, as in "Shalikashvili"
: 5. -escu in Rumanian, as in "Popescu"
: 6. -opoulos in Greek, as in "Petropoulos".

is -o- in -opoulos reflect the construct state of the previous word or
not?

there was some discussion on surname suffixes in the replies to this post:

From: Bob Cunningham <***@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: turcopole
Message-ID: <***@4ax.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 13:08:26 GMT
John Lawler
2004-04-04 18:09:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Reinhold (Rey) Aman
The meaning of some surname suffixes (-sen, -son, -s, -ez, -dóttir) and
prefixes (Mac-, Mc-, O'-) is well known. Recently I discussed other
suffixes with a friend but have no idea about their *literal* meaning.
My guess is that they mean "son of" and the like. Does anyone know the
literal meaning of the following six suffixes?
1. -tegui in Basque, as in "Inchaustegui"
2. -enko in Ukrainian, as in "Chernenko"
3. -nadze in Georgian, as in "Shevernadze"
4. -shvili in Georgian, as in "Shalikashvili"
5. -escu in Rumanian, as in "Popescu"
6. -opoulos in Greek, as in "Petropoulos".
Very interesting and useful questions (and answers).
Thanks, Rey and all.
Patronymicity rules, apparently.

Now -- something that's wondered me for a long time:

7. the -i/yan in Armenian, as in *every* Armenian name I can recall.

Another patronymic?

-John Lawler http://www.umich.edu/~jlawler Michigan Linguistics Dept
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"A dog is not considered good because of his barking, and a man is
not considered good because of his ability to talk." -- Chuang Tzu
Miguel Carrasquer
2004-04-05 01:11:27 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 04 Apr 2004 18:09:31 GMT,
Post by John Lawler
7. the -i/yan in Armenian, as in *every* Armenian name I can recall.
Another patronymic?
This is from Class. Arm. (Grabar) -ean, a patronymic and
possessive/adjectival suffix. It is related to Latin -i:nus
(e.g. Agrippina), Lith. -ynas (Jonýnas), Slavic -inU
(Pushkin), and also Skt. -i:nas (a suffix sometimes added to
bahuvri:hi compounds), ultimately from PIE *-i-H(o)n- (stem
final or compound base -i + possessive suffix *-Hon
"having"). There is still some dispute about whether the
laryngeal is *h1 or *h3, but I won't bother y'all with the
details.

=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
***@wxs.nl
piotrpanek
2004-04-05 09:22:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Reinhold (Rey) Aman
1. -tegui in Basque, as in "Inchaustegui"
2. -enko in Ukrainian, as in "Chernenko"
3. -nadze in Georgian, as in "Shevernadze"
4. -shvili in Georgian, as in "Shalikashvili"
5. -escu in Rumanian, as in "Popescu"
6. -opoulos in Greek, as in "Petropoulos".
-ski (in some contexts -cki, -dzki) in Polish (homologous suffixes are
also present in Russian /-skij/, /-skoj/, Belarussian, Ukrainian, and
some other Slavic, I'm not sure, but I've heard about Macedonian and
Montenegro Serbo-Croatian*)
Literarily it doesn't mean anything, but is related to the ending of
adjectives. Actually, these names are adjecitives derived from place
names. (They also behave in flexion as adjectives). The most popular (or
depending on survey author - the second one) Polish name is Kowalski,
which is an adjective of "kowal" ='smith' :-), actually of village/town
name "Kowale" ="Smiths".
It was borrowed by neighbour nations (conf. Austrian ex-Chancellor
Vranitzky) - Germans, Hungarians etc., I don't know if even Romanian
-escu is not derived from Slavic roots.

-ov (in some contexst -ev) and -in in Russian (and some other Slavic
languages, in Belarussian -au pron. [-aw], in Ukrainian -iv, in Polish
very rare -ów pron. [-uf], in Bulgarian -ov)
It is patronymic suffix although it is not a strict rule. It can be also
possesive suffix (ie. "Ivanov" means 'Ivan's', so the name "Ivanov"
could act as "the Ivan's son"). The first is derived from masculine
words (eg. Orlov from "orel" = 'eagle'), the latter from feminine ones
(eg. Stalin from "stal'" = 'steel').

-ic^ in Russian (-icz, -ycz in Polish, -ic, -yc in Old Polish, -ić in
Serbo-Croatian* etc.)
It is patronymic suffix, but it is only a suffix. There is no word as "icz".

piotrek

*) I don't want to start a discussion/argument about political and
linguistic reasons in favour or against binding Serbian, Croatian and
Bosnian into Serbo-Croatian. I just don't care it.
Jugoslav Dujic
2004-04-05 11:48:53 UTC
Permalink
piotrpanek wrote:
| Dnia 04-04-02 23:43, w liście od osoby znanej jako Reinhold (Rey) Aman było:
|
||
|| 1. -tegui in Basque, as in "Inchaustegui"
|| 2. -enko in Ukrainian, as in "Chernenko"
|| 3. -nadze in Georgian, as in "Shevernadze"
|| 4. -shvili in Georgian, as in "Shalikashvili"
|| 5. -escu in Rumanian, as in "Popescu"
|| 6. -opoulos in Greek, as in "Petropoulos".
||
|
| -ic^ in Russian (-icz, -ycz in Polish, -ic, -yc in Old Polish, -ić in
| Serbo-Croatian* etc.)
| It is patronymic suffix, but it is only a suffix. There is no word as "icz".

In Whateverian*, -ić is also a universal diminutive suffix (masculine), e.g.
sto(l) -> stolić (table->tablet), zid -> zidić (wall->little wall). I don't
know which usage (as surname or diminutive suffix) is earlier (and I don't
know of any Slavic language with the same convention, but I'm not a linguist).

| *) I don't want to start a discussion/argument about political and
| linguistic reasons in favour or against binding Serbian, Croatian and
| Bosnian into Serbo-Croatian. I just don't care it.

*) Ditto.
--
Jugoslav
piotrpanek
2004-04-06 08:30:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jugoslav Dujic
| -ic^ in Russian (-icz, -ycz in Polish, -ic, -yc in Old Polish, -ić in
| Serbo-Croatian* etc.)
| It is patronymic suffix, but it is only a suffix. There is no word as "icz".
In Whateverian*, -ić is also a universal diminutive suffix (masculine), e.g.
sto(l) -> stolić (table->tablet), zid -> zidić (wall->little wall). I don't
know which usage (as surname or diminutive suffix) is earlier (and I don't
know of any Slavic language with the same convention,
In Polish (and AFAIK in Russian, in Czech there's sth similar too)
isolated "icz" is not a diminutive prefix, but there are dimininuitve
prefixes -ek and -ik (of course, they are also very popular surname
prefixes, eg. my surname, Panek, is literarily "Little Lord" :-) ).
What is more, there are "superdiminutives", and they are ended with
-iczek, -eczek, -iczyk etc. When you know sth about Slavic
(morpho)phonology, it is obvious, that they probably are built of two
morphemes -ecz+ek, and that this is the same morpheme, since in that
contexts [e] palatalises [k] into [ts^] /ek+ek/ -> [ets^ek] (and
pararelly for -iczek, -iczyk, the latter since [i] and [_i_] "y" that
can be derived from /i/ also palatalise consonants). So there are words
"stół"-"stolik"-"stoliczek", "pies"-"piesek"-"pieseczek" /pies -
pies+ek, pies+ek+ek/ and so on ('a table'-'a small table'-'a very small
table', 'a dog'-'a little (or lovely) dog'-'a very lovely (or very
small) dog')
Anyway, in Polish (and as far as I remember in Russian) there's no
suffix -icz acting just as a diminutive suffix. "Królewicz" is not 'a
little king', but 'a king's son, prince' it is strictly patronymic. But
there's a feminine suffix -ica which is probably related to -ek, -ec,
-ik but lost it diminutive character centuries ago. Anyway it is a theme
for more sophisticated topic, which I don't think I'm good enough to
start :-)
Post by Jugoslav Dujic
but I'm not a linguist).
Nor am I. That makes matters more difficult :-)


piotrek (actually, my name is Piotr, but Piotr+ek is a diminutive, like
Pete or sth :-) )
Post by Jugoslav Dujic
| *) I don't want to start a discussion/argument about political and
| linguistic reasons in favour or against binding Serbian, Croatian and
| Bosnian into Serbo-Croatian. I just don't care it.
*) Ditto.
Wiktor S.
2004-04-06 08:53:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by piotrpanek
So there are words
"stół"-"stolik"-"stoliczek",
and "stoliczeczek" ;-)
--
Azarien

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Miguel Carrasquer
2004-04-06 22:13:58 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 06 Apr 2004 10:30:03 +0200, piotrpanek
Post by piotrpanek
Post by Jugoslav Dujic
| -ic^ in Russian (-icz, -ycz in Polish, -ic, -yc in Old Polish, -ić in
| Serbo-Croatian* etc.)
| It is patronymic suffix, but it is only a suffix. There is no word as "icz".
In Whateverian*, -ić is also a universal diminutive suffix (masculine), e.g.
sto(l) -> stolić (table->tablet), zid -> zidić (wall->little wall). I don't
know which usage (as surname or diminutive suffix) is earlier (and I don't
know of any Slavic language with the same convention,
In Polish (and AFAIK in Russian, in Czech there's sth similar too)
isolated "icz" is not a diminutive prefix, but there are dimininuitve
prefixes -ek and -ik (of course, they are also very popular surname
prefixes, eg. my surname, Panek, is literarily "Little Lord" :-) ).
What is more, there are "superdiminutives", and they are ended with
-iczek, -eczek, -iczyk etc. When you know sth about Slavic
(morpho)phonology, it is obvious, that they probably are built of two
morphemes -ecz+ek, and that this is the same morpheme, since in that
contexts [e] palatalises [k] into [ts^] /ek+ek/ -> [ets^ek] (and
pararelly for -iczek, -iczyk, the latter since [i] and [_i_] "y" that
can be derived from /i/ also palatalise consonants). So there are words
"stół"-"stolik"-"stoliczek", "pies"-"piesek"-"pieseczek" /pies -
pies+ek, pies+ek+ek/ and so on ('a table'-'a small table'-'a very small
table', 'a dog'-'a little (or lovely) dog'-'a very lovely (or very
small) dog')
Anyway, in Polish (and as far as I remember in Russian) there's no
suffix -icz acting just as a diminutive suffix. "Królewicz" is not 'a
little king', but 'a king's son, prince' it is strictly patronymic. But
there's a feminine suffix -ica which is probably related to -ek, -ec,
-ik but lost it diminutive character centuries ago. Anyway it is a theme
for more sophisticated topic, which I don't think I'm good enough to
start :-)
In fact -ic, -ica is not related to -ek, -ec, -ik.

The ending -ic(a) corresponds to East Slavic -ic^ (and also
Polish -icz, from Belorussian/Ukrainian [Eastern Poland as
it used to be], generally replacing native Polish -ic as a
patronymic) and South Slavic [SCr] -ic'/ [Bul] -is^t
(-is^c^) / [Slov] -ic^. The correspondence c/c^/c'/s^t
means the Common Slavic form was *tj, and the suffix indeed
derives from *-i:tja (cf. Latin -i:tia).

The diminutive suffix -ec comes from PIE *-ikos, which
regularly becomes -IcI (> Pol. -ec, Russ -ec, Scr. -ac [I
don't know if the latter exists, but that's what -IcI should
have given]), where the correspondence c-c-c means Third
Palatalization (k,g,ch after I, i, e^ become c / dz ~ z / s
(West Slavic s^]. In -ik (< *-i:kos), the 3rd.
palatalization did not take place for some reason (probably
the position of the Slavic accent). Unlike the 1st and 2nd,
the 3rd. (and last) palatalization is a bit unpredictable
(it never even took place in Krivichian, the former Northern
Russian dialect of Novgorod, etc.)


=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
***@wxs.nl
piotrpanek
2004-04-07 08:57:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Miguel Carrasquer
In fact -ic, -ica is not related to -ek, -ec, -ik.
OK. It was just a speculation. I believe your claim is supported with
good resources (J. N. Baudwin de Courtenay or the like) Anyway, I
pointed, that -ic, -icz in contemporary Polish is not a diminuitve
suffix but patronymic one, which may support their independence from
-ek, -ik, -ec. :-)
Post by Miguel Carrasquer
The ending -ic(a) corresponds to East Slavic -ic^ (and also
Polish -icz, from Belorussian/Ukrainian [Eastern Poland as
it used to be], generally replacing native Polish -ic as a
patronymic) and South Slavic [SCr] -ic'/ [Bul] -is^t
(-is^c^) / [Slov] -ic^. The correspondence c/c^/c'/s^t
means the Common Slavic form was *tj, and the suffix indeed
derives from *-i:tja (cf. Latin -i:tia).
The diminutive suffix -ec comes from PIE *-ikos, which
regularly becomes -IcI (> Pol. -ec, Russ -ec, Scr. -ac [I
don't know if the latter exists, but that's what -IcI should
have given]), where the correspondence c-c-c means Third
Palatalization (k,g,ch after I, i, e^ become c / dz ~ z / s
(West Slavic s^]. In -ik (< *-i:kos), the 3rd.
palatalization did not take place for some reason (probably
the position of the Slavic accent). Unlike the 1st and 2nd,
the 3rd. (and last) palatalization is a bit unpredictable
(it never even took place in Krivichian, the former Northern
Russian dialect of Novgorod, etc.)
It sounds sensible :-) I am too lazy (and have too little background
knowledge) to read original papers so I appreciate such briefs :-)

Thank you.

But which place in this system does Serbo-Croatian diminutive -ić
occupies? Was it derived (or just borrowed) from patronymic -ić, (PSl
*tj) or from diminutive *ikos?

piotrek
(not a linguist at all, but just curious in some linguistic facts)
Post by Miguel Carrasquer
=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
Jugoslav Dujic
2004-04-07 11:26:05 UTC
Permalink
Miguel Carrasquer wrote:
| On Tue, 06 Apr 2004 10:30:03 +0200, piotrpanek
| <***@london.gazeta.PARISpl.ROME> wrote:
|
|| Dnia 04-04-05 13:48, w liście od osoby znanej jako Jugoslav Dujic było:
||
|||| -ic^ in Russian (-icz, -ycz in Polish, -ic, -yc in Old Polish, -ić in
|||| Serbo-Croatian* etc.)
|||| It is patronymic suffix, but it is only a suffix. There is no word as
|||| "icz".
|||
||| In Whateverian*, -ić is also a universal diminutive suffix (masculine), e.g.
||| sto(l) -> stolić (table->tablet), zid -> zidić (wall->little wall). I don't
||| know which usage (as surname or diminutive suffix) is earlier (and I don't
||| know of any Slavic language with the same convention,
||
|| In Polish (and AFAIK in Russian, in Czech there's sth similar too)
|| isolated "icz" is not a diminutive prefix, but there are dimininuitve
|| prefixes -ek and -ik (of course, they are also very popular surname
|| prefixes, eg. my surname, Panek, is literarily "Little Lord" :-) ).
|| What is more, there are "superdiminutives", and they are ended with
|| -iczek, -eczek, -iczyk etc. When you know sth about Slavic
|| (morpho)phonology, it is obvious, that they probably are built of two
|| morphemes -ecz+ek, and that this is the same morpheme, since in that
|| contexts [e] palatalises [k] into [ts^] /ek+ek/ -> [ets^ek] (and
|| pararelly for -iczek, -iczyk, the latter since [i] and [_i_] "y" that
|| can be derived from /i/ also palatalise consonants). So there are words
|| "stół"-"stolik"-"stoliczek", "pies"-"piesek"-"pieseczek" /pies -
|| pies+ek, pies+ek+ek/ and so on ('a table'-'a small table'-'a very small
|| table', 'a dog'-'a little (or lovely) dog'-'a very lovely (or very
|| small) dog')
|
| The diminutive suffix -ec comes from PIE *-ikos, which
| regularly becomes -IcI (> Pol. -ec, Russ -ec, Scr. -ac [I
| don't know if the latter exists, but that's what -IcI should
| have given]), where the correspondence c-c-c means Third
| Palatalization (k,g,ch after I, i, e^ become c / dz ~ z / s
| (West Slavic s^].

SCr has -ac but it's not diminutive. cf. Russ. конец -> SCr
konac. -ac commonly denotes the one which performs
the action, like -er in english or -тель in Russ (e.g
glumac = actor, gledalac = spectator).

Apart from universal -ić (-ic') and -čić (-c^ic'),
there's also less used -ak (applicable to some common words,
but not everywhere). I could name only few words which
have -ak but cannot have -ić, like kutak (corner, niche)
or mračak (dark, usu. poet. for twilight).

Feminine diminutives are formed using -ica, and neutrum
using -ce (or -ence, -ešce, -ašce to make pronunciation
easier).

"Super-diminutives" are not so common, and I'm not sure
whether they are grammatically "approved". It would be
-íćak or -íčak for masculinum, and -ičíca for femininum.
(í denoting long raising accent).
--
Jugoslav
Miguel Carrasquer
2004-04-08 02:49:42 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 7 Apr 2004 13:26:05 +0200, "Jugoslav Dujic"
Post by Jugoslav Dujic
SCr has -ac but it's not diminutive. cf. Russ. конец -> SCr
konac. -ac commonly denotes the one which performs
the action, like -er in english or -тель in Russ (e.g
glumac = actor, gledalac = spectator).
Yes, that's another meaning of Slavic *-IcI. Probably also
the reason why the diminutive over time acquired different
formations (such as Pol. "double diminutive" -eczek, etc.),
to distinguish from other, less affective, uses of -ec/-ac.


=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
***@wxs.nl
corvette
2004-04-16 02:04:37 UTC
Permalink
opoulos means of Peloponnesus desent. (southwest pininsula in southern
Greece). Ancient site of Sparta, Corinth, Argos, and Megalopolis.
Also the final remains of The Roman Empire. After the Greek war of
independence (1821-1829) the original decendents added OPOULOS to the
back of thier name to show thier pride. All men were warriors.
:twisted:



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