"The Third Man" wins the Grand Prix at Cannes (17/9/1949)

[Ross Clark]

Story by Graham Greene, directed by Carol Reed, with Orson Welles in a
central role. Noirish occupied Vienna in 1946.

I certainly remember Anton Karas's theme tune on the zither; it was on
the radio a lot when the film was new. But I was a small boy, and this
was not a suitable film. I didn't see it until maybe a decade later.

And the language angle? The envelope, please...

Crystal references a paper he gave at a conference a few years ago:
"Going Especially Careful: Language Reference in Graham Greene".
To my surprise, it's right here:

https://www.davidcrystal.com/Files/BooksAndArticles/-4838.pdf

But just to summarize the points for today:

Greene never said much explicitly about language.
But his characters notice it and talk about it all the time.
And "whenever there's explicit reference -- to accent, words, grammar --
or to individual languages and dialects, it's a sign that trouble is
brewing.
[I want to jump up and say, "But trouble is brewing all the time in
Graham Greene's novels, so the correlation is not significant." But I
won't.]

Anyhow: language-related plot elements in The Third Man:

- The point-of-view/narrator character (played by Joseph Cotten) is a
novelist.
- He has come to Vienna to write advertising/propaganda for his old
friend Harry Lime (Welles).
- He can't speak German, so has to rely on interpreters a lot, and gets
into difficulties when he hasn't got one.
- The people he meets have strange names, which he often gets wrong.
- He ends up having to give a lecture on a subject he knows nothing
about, and is lost for words. In answer to a question he says "Well,
yes, I suppose that is what I meant to say."

There's more at the link above.

Just in case you don't know this film, the most famous quote from it is
Harry's "cuckoo clock" speech before he disappears, which has nothing to
do with language:

(as rendered on IMDb)

Harry Lime: Don't be so gloomy. After all, it's not that awful. Like the
fella says, in Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare,
terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo
da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love -
they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce?
The cuckoo clock. So long, Holly.

[HenHanna]

Post by Ross Clark
Story by Graham Greene, directed by Carol Reed, with Orson Welles in a
central role. Noirish occupied Vienna in 1946.
I certainly remember Anton Karas's theme tune on the zither; it was on
the radio a lot when the film was new. But I was a small boy, and this
was not a suitable film. I didn't see it until maybe a decade later.
And the language angle? The envelope, please...
"Going Especially Careful: Language Reference in Graham Greene".
https://www.davidcrystal.com/Files/BooksAndArticles/-4838.pdf
Greene never said much explicitly about language.
But his characters notice it and talk about it all the time.
And "whenever there's explicit reference -- to accent, words, grammar --
or to individual languages and dialects, it's a sign that trouble is
brewing.
[I want to jump up and say, "But trouble is brewing all the time in
Graham Greene's novels, so the correlation is not significant." But I
won't.]
- The point-of-view/narrator character (played by Joseph Cotton) is a
novelist.
- He has come to Vienna to write advertising/propaganda for his old
friend Harry Lime (Welles).
- He can't speak German, so has to rely on interpreters a lot, and gets
into difficulties when he hasn't got one.
- The people he meets have strange names, which he often gets wrong.
- He ends up having to give a lecture on a subject he knows nothing
about, and is lost for words. In answer to a question he says "Well,
yes, I suppose that is what I meant to say."
There's more at the link above.
Just in case you don't know this film, the most famous quote from it is
Harry's "cuckoo clock" speech before he disappears, which has nothing to
(as rendered on IMDb)
Harry Lime: Don't be so gloomy. After all, it's not that awful. Like the
fella says, in Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare,
terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo
da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love -
they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce?
The cuckoo clock. So long, Holly.
- He ends up having to give a lecture on a subject he knows nothing
about, and is lost for words.

this used to be a common setup in Old(er) movies ... There's a
fav. Hitchcock movie containing a scene like that.


_______________

i don't think of [The Third Man] as particularly Ling-intensive.

[A Clockwork Orange] or [To Build a Fire] (both with Burgess)
or [My Fair Lady]
are much more Ling-intensive.

[HenHanna]

Post by Ross Clark
Story by Graham Greene, directed by Carol Reed, with Orson Welles in a
central role. Noirish occupied Vienna in 1946.
I certainly remember Anton Karas's theme tune on the zither; it was on
the radio a lot when the film was new. But I was a small boy, and this
was not a suitable film. I didn't see it until maybe a decade later.
And the language angle? The envelope, please...
"Going Especially Careful: Language Reference in Graham Greene".
https://www.davidcrystal.com/Files/BooksAndArticles/-4838.pdf
Greene never said much explicitly about language.
But his characters notice it and talk about it all the time.
And "whenever there's explicit reference -- to accent, words, grammar
-- or to individual languages and dialects, it's a sign that trouble
is brewing.
[I want to jump up and say, "But trouble is brewing all the time in
Graham Greene's novels, so the correlation is not significant." But I
won't.]
- The point-of-view/narrator character (played by Joseph Cotton) is a
novelist.
- He has come to Vienna to write advertising/propaganda for his old
friend Harry Lime (Welles).
- He can't speak German, so has to rely on interpreters a lot, and
gets into difficulties when he hasn't got one.
- The people he meets have strange names, which he often gets wrong.
- He ends up having to give a lecture on a subject he knows nothing
about, and is lost for words. In answer to a question he says "Well,
yes, I suppose that is what I meant to say."
There's more at the link above.
Just in case you don't know this film, the most famous quote from it
is Harry's "cuckoo clock" speech before he disappears, which has
(as rendered on IMDb)
Harry Lime: Don't be so gloomy. After all, it's not that awful. Like
the fella says, in Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had
warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced
Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland
they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace,
and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock. So long, Holly.
- He ends up having to give a lecture on a subject he knows nothing
                  about, and is lost for words.

this used to be a common setup in Old(er) movies  ... There's a
              fav. Hitchcock movie containing a scene like that.
_______________
i don't think of  [The Third Man]  as particularly  Ling-intensive.
[A Clockwork Orange] or [To Build a Fire] (both with Burgess)
         or [My Fair Lady]
           are much more Ling-intensive.

(Spoiler)


He steals penicillin from the hospital and sells it to the black market,
which results in killing many people, including children. He kills
Sergeant Paine before he himself is finally killed by Holly Martins, who
discovered Lime's true colors.

--------- i like the actor, but i didn't find Harry Lime
such an intriguing character.


(Spoiler)


The ending of The Third Man is a poignant and memorable one.

After a series of twists and turns, the protagonist, Harry
Lime, is revealed to be a morally corrupt man involved in illegal
activities. In the climactic scene, Lime is cornered in a sewer and shot
by the police.

The film then concludes with a bittersweet scene: Lime's
friend, Holly Martins, waits at a cemetery for Anna, Lime's lover. As
Anna approaches, walking away from the gravesite, she doesn't even
glance at Martins. He watches her go, his hope and longing fading into
the distance. This final shot, with its lingering emptiness, underscores
the themes of disillusionment, betrayal, and the enduring nature of
love, even in the face of tragedy.

_____________________Was the woman Lime's lover? Was Joseph Cotton
(character) in love with her?

Yes, Anna was Lime's lover. It's not explicitly stated in the
film, but it's strongly implied. Anna is shown to be very affectionate
with Lime, and they are often seen together in private. Additionally,
Lime tells Holly that Anna is the only person he cares about.

As for whether or not Joseph Cotton (the actor who played
Harry Lime's friend) was in love with Anna, it's impossible to say for
sure. However, it seems likely that he at least felt a strong connection
to the character. In an interview, he said that he thought Lime was a
"fascinating and complex man," and that he was drawn to his "dark side."


________________It's interesting how in real life Cotton was mostly
Welles's sidekick, and in the film(s) also.



That's a very astute observation! It's interesting to see how
their real-life dynamic mirrored their on-screen roles in many ways.

In their personal relationship, Welles was often the dominant
figure, while Cotton was more reserved and often played the straight
man. This dynamic is evident in their collaborations, such as Citizen
Kane, where Welles plays the enigmatic and powerful Charles Foster Kane,
while Cotton portrays the more grounded and sympathetic Jed Leland.

Similarly, in The Third Man, Welles's character, Harry Lime, is
the charismatic but morally ambiguous figure, while Cotton's character,
Holly Martins, is the naive and idealistic protagonist. It's almost as
if their real-life roles influenced their on-screen personas, creating a
fascinating interplay between their personal and professional lives.

[Bobbie Sellers]

This is not an animated film. It is a live action production so
please remeve rec.arts.anime.misc from your future postings
about live action films not made in Japan.

Neither is it a James Joyce book.

bliss

Post by Ross Clark
Story by Graham Greene, directed by Carol Reed, with Orson Welles in a
central role. Noirish occupied Vienna in 1946.
I certainly remember Anton Karas's theme tune on the zither; it was on
the radio a lot when the film was new. But I was a small boy, and this
was not a suitable film. I didn't see it until maybe a decade later.
And the language angle? The envelope, please...
"Going Especially Careful: Language Reference in Graham Greene".
https://www.davidcrystal.com/Files/BooksAndArticles/-4838.pdf
Greene never said much explicitly about language.
But his characters notice it and talk about it all the time.
And "whenever there's explicit reference -- to accent, words, grammar
-- or to individual languages and dialects, it's a sign that trouble
is brewing.
[I want to jump up and say, "But trouble is brewing all the time in
Graham Greene's novels, so the correlation is not significant." But I
won't.]
- The point-of-view/narrator character (played by Joseph Cotton) is a
novelist.
- He has come to Vienna to write advertising/propaganda for his old
friend Harry Lime (Welles).
- He can't speak German, so has to rely on interpreters a lot, and
gets into difficulties when he hasn't got one.
- The people he meets have strange names, which he often gets wrong.
- He ends up having to give a lecture on a subject he knows nothing
about, and is lost for words. In answer to a question he says "Well,
yes, I suppose that is what I meant to say."
There's more at the link above.
Just in case you don't know this film, the most famous quote from it
is Harry's "cuckoo clock" speech before he disappears, which has
(as rendered on IMDb)
Harry Lime: Don't be so gloomy. After all, it's not that awful. Like
the fella says, in Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had
warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced
Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland
they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace,
and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock. So long, Holly.
- He ends up having to give a lecture on a subject he knows nothing
                  about, and is lost for words.

this used to be a common setup in Old(er) movies  ... There's a
              fav. Hitchcock movie containing a scene like that.
_______________
i don't think of  [The Third Man]  as particularly  Ling-intensive.
[A Clockwork Orange] or [To Build a Fire] (both with Burgess)
         or [My Fair Lady]
           are much more Ling-intensive.

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by Bobbie Sellers
This is not an animated film. It is a live action production so
please remeve rec.arts.anime.misc from your future postings
about live action films not made in Japan.
Neither is it a James Joyce book.
bliss

Perhaps you could convince HenHanna to remove all Usenet groups from
their postings.
If so, you would receive the grateful thanks of many.

[occam]

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Bobbie Sellers
This is not an animated film. It is a live action production so
please remeve rec.arts.anime.misc from your future postings
about live action films not made in Japan.
Neither is it a James Joyce book.
bliss

Perhaps you could convince HenHanna to remove all Usenet groups from
their postings.
If so, you would receive the grateful thanks of many.

Agree.

Aside: Your use of the pronoun 'their' for the addle-brained Hen, is
that political correctness - or do you know something we don't? Just asking.

[Hibou]

Post by occam
Aside: Your use of the pronoun 'their' for the addle-brained Hen, is
that political correctness - or do you know something we don't? Just asking.

It's good to see 'addle-brained' taking the air.

An oldish Collins dictionary says 'addle' is a "back-formation from
'addled', from C13 'addle' rotten, from Old English 'adela' filth;
related to dialect German 'Addel' liquid manure."

Note to new parents: don't call your daughter 'Adela'.

[occam]

Post by Hibou

Post by occam
Aside: Your use of the pronoun 'their' for the addle-brained Hen, is
that political correctness - or do you know something we don't? Just asking.

It's good to see 'addle-brained' taking the air.
An oldish Collins dictionary says 'addle' is a "back-formation from
'addled', from C13 'addle' rotten, from Old English 'adela' filth;
related to dialect German 'Addel' liquid manure."
Note to new parents: don't call your daughter 'Adela'.

Quite right. Too close to Nutella.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Hibou

Post by occam
Aside: Your use of the pronoun 'their' for the addle-brained Hen, is
that political correctness - or do you know something we don't? Just asking.

It's good to see 'addle-brained' taking the air.
An oldish Collins dictionary says 'addle' is a "back-formation from
'addled', from C13 'addle' rotten, from Old English 'adela' filth;
related to dialect German 'Addel' liquid manure."
Note to new parents: don't call your daughter 'Adela'.

Chlamydia. That's a lovely name for a girl.

[Chris Elvidge]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Hibou

Post by occam
Aside: Your use of the pronoun 'their' for the addle-brained Hen, is
that political correctness - or do you know something we don't? Just asking.

It's good to see 'addle-brained' taking the air.
An oldish Collins dictionary says 'addle' is a "back-formation from
'addled', from C13 'addle' rotten, from Old English 'adela' filth;
related to dialect German 'Addel' liquid manure."
Note to new parents: don't call your daughter 'Adela'.

Chlamydia. That's a lovely name for a girl.

Or even Veruca.

[charles]

Post by Chris Elvidge

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Hibou

Post by occam
Aside: Your use of the pronoun 'their' for the addle-brained Hen, is
that political correctness - or do you know something we don't? Just asking.

It's good to see 'addle-brained' taking the air.
An oldish Collins dictionary says 'addle' is a "back-formation from
'addled', from C13 'addle' rotten, from Old English 'adela' filth;
related to dialect German 'Addel' liquid manure."
Note to new parents: don't call your daughter 'Adela'.

Chlamydia. That's a lovely name for a girl.

Or even Veruca.

I have a friend who is chiropodist. He once appeared in a village amateur
theatrical production and a small voice from the body of the hall said "Oh,
look! - There's Mr Veruca!"

Post by Chris Elvidge
--

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by occam

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Bobbie Sellers
This is not an animated film. It is a live action production so
please remeve rec.arts.anime.misc from your future postings
about live action films not made in Japan.
Neither is it a James Joyce book.
bliss

Perhaps you could convince HenHanna to remove all Usenet groups from
their postings.
If so, you would receive the grateful thanks of many.

Agree.
Aside: Your use of the pronoun 'their' for the addle-brained Hen, is
that political correctness - or do you know something we don't? Just asking.

Just avoiding a 'gendered pronoun because I don't know if 'they' are
male, female or otherwise.

[occam]

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by occam

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Bobbie Sellers
This is not an animated film. It is a live action production so
please remeve rec.arts.anime.misc from your future postings
about live action films not made in Japan.
Neither is it a James Joyce book.
bliss

Perhaps you could convince HenHanna to remove all Usenet groups from
their postings.
If so, you would receive the grateful thanks of many.

Agree.
Aside: Your use of the pronoun 'their' for the addle-brained Hen, is
that political correctness - or do you know something we don't? Just asking.

Just avoiding a 'gendered pronoun because I don't know if 'they' are
male, female or otherwise.

As Athel says, why not call the prick 'his' or 'its'? It's his own
designation ('Hen, short for Henry'). And if they object, they can go
fuck himself.

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by occam

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by occam

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Bobbie Sellers
This is not an animated film. It is a live action production so
please remeve rec.arts.anime.misc from your future postings
about live action films not made in Japan.
Neither is it a James Joyce book.
bliss

Perhaps you could convince HenHanna to remove all Usenet groups from
their postings.
If so, you would receive the grateful thanks of many.

Agree.
Aside: Your use of the pronoun 'their' for the addle-brained Hen, is
that political correctness - or do you know something we don't? Just asking.

Just avoiding a 'gendered pronoun because I don't know if 'they' are
male, female or otherwise.

As Athel says, why not call the prick 'his' or 'its'? It's his own
designation ('Hen, short for Henry'). And if they object, they can go
fuck himself.

Are you sure that is possible?

[Phil Carmody]

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by occam

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Bobbie Sellers
This is not an animated film. It is a live action production so
please remeve rec.arts.anime.misc from your future postings
about live action films not made in Japan.
Neither is it a James Joyce book.
bliss

Perhaps you could convince HenHanna to remove all Usenet groups from
their postings.
If so, you would receive the grateful thanks of many.

Agree.
Aside: Your use of the pronoun 'their' for the addle-brained Hen, is
that political correctness - or do you know something we don't? Just asking.

Just avoiding a 'gendered pronoun because I don't know if 'they' are
male, female or otherwise.

There's always s/h/it to cover all three bases.

Phil