Phaistos Disk again, comments welcome

[Yusuf B Gursey]

http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/archaeology-today/phaistos-disk-deciphered/?mqsc=E3781800&utm_source=WhatCountsEmail&utm_medium=BHD+Week%20in%20Review%20Newsletter&utm_campaign=E4WN01

[Arnaud Fournet]

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/archaeology-today/phaistos-disk-deciphered/?mqsc=E3781800&utm_source=WhatCountsEmail&utm_medium=BHD+Week%20in%20Review%20Newsletter&utm_campaign=E4WN01

I have personally tried to "decipher" the Phaistos Disk,
I've even wrote a book that describes my attempts.
http://www.thebookedition.com/the-phaistos-disc-and-hurrian-arnaud-fournet-p-106434.html
I know exactly what the problems are and how to cheat.
It is clear that this "decipherment" by Owens is just bogus.

A.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Arnaud Fournet

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/archaeology-today/phaistos-disk-deciphered/?mqsc=E3781800&utm_source=WhatCountsEmail&utm_medium=BHD+Week%20in%20Review%20Newsletter&utm_campaign=E4WN01

I have personally tried to "decipher" the Phaistos Disk,
I've even wrote a book that describes my attempts.
http://www.thebookedition.com/the-phaistos-disc-and-hurrian-arnaud-fournet-p-106434.html
I know exactly what the problems are and how to cheat.
It is clear that this "decipherment" by Owens is just bogus.

The former editor of the _Journal of Near Eastern Studies_, Bob Biggs,
told me he would get a new "decipherment" proposal every six weeks or so.

If this one is endorsed by the _Biblical Archaeology Review_ people,
that's a special mark against it.

[Arnaud Fournet]

Post by Peter T. Daniels
The former editor of the _Journal of Near Eastern Studies_, Bob Biggs,
told me he would get a new "decipherment" proposal every six weeks or so.

I would have thought it was even more frequent.
A.

Post by Peter T. Daniels
If this one is endorsed by the _Biblical Archaeology Review_ people,
that's a special mark against it.

why so? *against* it
A.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Arnaud Fournet

Post by Peter T. Daniels
The former editor of the _Journal of Near Eastern Studies_, Bob Biggs,
told me he would get a new "decipherment" proposal every six weeks or so.

I would have thought it was even more frequent.

This was quite a while ago ... maybe there are more now! I could check
with the present editor.

Post by Arnaud Fournet

Post by Peter T. Daniels
If this one is endorsed by the _Biblical Archaeology Review_ people,
that's a special mark against it.

why so? *against* it

Because BAR is edited by a Zionist attorney in Washington, DC, whose only
demonstrable interest is in increasing his ad revenues from antiquities
dealers and those who promote tours to "the Holy Land" among evangelicals
(when I was in Haifa in April 2012 and we went sightseeing at Mt. Carmel
and Acco, they were everywhere). He has supported the authenticity of
every celebrated forgery that has come to public attention in recent years
(such as the Jesus sarcophagus, the Temple pomegranate, and the Josiah
tablet), and although he claims to take donations to support Israeli
archeology, no one has yet discovered a dig that was funded by him.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Because BAR is edited by a Zionist attorney in Washington, DC, whose only
demonstrable interest is in increasing his ad revenues from antiquities
dealers and those who promote tours to "the Holy Land" among evangelicals
(when I was in Haifa in April 2012 and we went sightseeing at Mt. Carmel
and Acco, they were everywhere). He has supported the authenticity of
every celebrated forgery that has come to public attention in recent years
(such as the Jesus sarcophagus, the Temple pomegranate, and the Josiah
tablet), and although he claims to take donations to support Israeli
archeology, no one has yet discovered a dig that was funded by him.

The Phaistos Disc was deciphered for good by Derk Ohlenroth.
Only pity is that he didn't write an English version (not of
the entire book, just of the decipherment and translation
from Middle Helladic Greek into Homeric Greek and English).
And there is a connection between the Phaistos Disc and the Bible.
A big surprise is the Middle Helladic name of Zeus given as flower
plus male profile plus ear of grain, phonetic value Ss-Ey-R Sseyr
which has a correspondence in Mount Seir, abode of Jahwe, storm
and weather and fertility god, also a god of war, the same god
as Jupiter and Zeus and Shiva and many other supreme sky and
weather gods, consider also the Serri bull of the Hurrites
adopted by the Hittites. Also Jupiter was originally a bull,
also Zeus appeared in the guise of a bull, the precursor of Shiva
on tablets from the Indus Valley has the horns of a buffalo,
and at least one representation of Jahwe found on top of a hill
near Samaria is a bronze figurine of a bull. Here the Magdalenian
double formula invoking the supreme sky and weather god

ShA PAD TYR AS CA
DhAG PAD TYR AS CA

ShA ruler rule
PAD activity of feet
TYR to overcome in the double sense of rule and give
emphatic Middle Helladic Sseyr (Phaistos Disc, Derk Ohlenroth)
Doric Sseus (Wilhelm Larfeld) Homeric Zeus
AS upward
DhAG able, good in the sense of able

The ruler ShA goes ahead PAD and overcomes in the double sense
of rule and give TYR up above AS in the sky CA
The able one DhAG (repetition)

ShA PAD TYR Jupitter Jupiter Jovis Giove
DhAG PAD TYR Dis pater, byname of Jupiter
TYR Sseyr Sseus Zeus, also the Armenian sun archer of
the Bronze Age Tyr, also present in Tyros and Syria,
also the English Tir and Norse Tyr
DhAG Dios, genitive of Zeus
ShA CA Shiva
TYR CA Durga, emanation of Shiva's consort
ShA CA DhAG CA Jahwe, rider of clouds from Mount Seir

The Phaistos Disc as deciphered by Derk Ohlenroth provided
the key for understanding the supreme sky and weather god
of the Mesolithic, Chalcolithic, Bronze Age and Iron Age,
a god named by a universal formula that was fragmented
into several seemingly different names, Jahwe one of them,
equal of Jupiter and Zeus and Shiva.

[Jens Stuckelberger]

Post by Franz Gnaedinger

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Because BAR is edited by a Zionist attorney in Washington, DC, whose
only demonstrable interest is in increasing his ad revenues from
antiquities dealers and those who promote tours to "the Holy Land"
among evangelicals (when I was in Haifa in April 2012 and we went
sightseeing at Mt. Carmel and Acco, they were everywhere). He has
supported the authenticity of every celebrated forgery that has come to
public attention in recent years (such as the Jesus sarcophagus, the
Temple pomegranate, and the Josiah tablet), and although he claims to
take donations to support Israeli archeology, no one has yet discovered
a dig that was funded by him.

The Phaistos Disc was deciphered for good by Derk Ohlenroth.
Only pity is that he didn't write an English version (not of the entire
book, just of the decipherment and translation from Middle Helladic
Greek into Homeric Greek and English).

Are you serious?

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Post by Jens Stuckelberger
Are you serious?

Are you German? If so you can read the book by Derk Ohlenroth,
Das Abaton des Lykäischen Zeus und der Hain der Elaia. You
can find the book in every university library. You don't have
to read the historical part, just look up the first chapters,
especially the drawings and decipherment and translations
into classical Greek and German. I wrote a letter to Derk
Ohlenroth in the late 1990s, raving of enthusiasm, he answered
me, and then we exchanged several long letters. He attested me
an eros of understanding while I proposed a different historical
interpretation, to viz, a connection between Eponymous Tiryns
and Lord Laertes the gardener in Homer's Odyssey, from the
lineage Zeus - Arkeisios - Laertes - Odysseus - Telemachos.
He wrote that we know amazingly little about Middle Helladic
Greece in the Argolis. Later on I asked him to have a look at
the legacy of the Vinca (Vincha) culture. I went for it myself
in 2003 or 2004 and from there to Magdalenian in early 2005.
For me and my Paleo-linguistic adventure the Phaistos Disc
as deciphered by Derk Ohlenroth was the key that opened a door
to a remote past. And yes, I am serious, can't you tell?

[DKleinecke]

Post by Franz Gnaedinger

Post by Jens Stuckelberger
Are you serious?

Are you German? If so you can read the book by Derk Ohlenroth,
Das Abaton des Lykäischen Zeus und der Hain der Elaia. You
can find the book in every university library. You don't have
to read the historical part, just look up the first chapters,
especially the drawings and decipherment and translations
into classical Greek and German. I wrote a letter to Derk
Ohlenroth in the late 1990s, raving of enthusiasm, he answered
me, and then we exchanged several long letters. He attested me
an eros of understanding while I proposed a different historical
interpretation, to viz, a connection between Eponymous Tiryns
and Lord Laertes the gardener in Homer's Odyssey, from the
lineage Zeus - Arkeisios - Laertes - Odysseus - Telemachos.
He wrote that we know amazingly little about Middle Helladic
Greece in the Argolis. Later on I asked him to have a look at
the legacy of the Vinca (Vincha) culture. I went for it myself
in 2003 or 2004 and from there to Magdalenian in early 2005.
For me and my Paleo-linguistic adventure the Phaistos Disc
as deciphered by Derk Ohlenroth was the key that opened a door
to a remote past. And yes, I am serious, can't you tell?

Maybe you could translate Ohlenroth into English for us rather
than going on and on about Magdalenian.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Post by DKleinecke
Maybe you could translate Ohlenroth into English for us

You can find a short version of my interpretation of the PhD
on my page

http://www.seshat.ch/home/dsic.htm

Here the inscription on the Tiryns side or rather disc following
Derk Ohlenroth

Spiral, beginning in the center

Sseyr is the shining one also when Sseyr is the Lycaian one
whose women give birth to his equal, and if shining Tiryns
resembles the shining god, also I, personifying Tiryns,
resemble the god ...

Text along the margin:

Marked by the god and lonesome evermore and without hope
for salvation and deprived of a shadow shall return
who tries to enter without permission ...

Derk Ohlenroth believes this renders the text of an abaton
(forbidden zone, nobody else allowed to enter) in Arcadia,
where Eponymous Tiryns came from, whereas I believe that
the Tiryns disc (Phaistos Disc consisting of two clay discs
baked together) represents Tiryns ruled by Eponymous Tiryns
honored as Lord Laertes the gardener in Homer's Odyssey.
Eponymous Tiryns, coming from Lycos near Arcadia in the
western Peloponnese, claims that Sseyr Sseus Zeus not only
rules the Argolis but also Arcadia, so that he, coming from
the west, justly governs Tiryns in the east. The disc represents
shining Tiryns, by then on the shore (that meanwhile receded
by three kilometers), on top of the limestone hill the former
Round Building, a rosette of stone blocks at the base still extant
in situ, on the disc represented by the rosette of eight petals
in the center, a building that included a Zeus shrine and may
well have served as lighthouse for the ships approaching Tiryns
- shining white and a blazing fire at the top. The rosette has
one more function as a lunisolar calendar, each petal a long month
of 45 days (five Homeric weeks of nine days), all eight petals
a basic year of 360 days, add 5 and sometimes 6 days for the
small circle in the center and you have a regular year of 365
and an occasional leap year of 366 days, while 21 continuous
periods of 45 days are 945 days and correspond to 32 lunations
or synodic months. Then the rosette is also a windrose, and a
world formula in the Magdalenian sense: here and now (small circle
in the center), south and north, east and west, below and above,
past and future (eight petals). The text along the spiral is
a self-apotheosis of king Eponymous Tiryns, while the text along
the spiral represents the wall around Tiryns, both texts beginning
with emphatic Ss (flower of Zeus), the text along the margin
magically enforcing the wall with four curses of archaic power
that will befall those who enter without legitimation. The male face
following the rosette in the center is Eponymous Tiryns ruling the polis
in the name of Sseyr Sseus Zeus (double circle in the shape of an 8
on his cheek, the upper circle for Zeus, the lower for himself).
Look how many soldiers watch him and Tiryns and the gate and across
the wall! The male head in the center stands for Magdalenian CO,
an active mind, the many gards watching out for OC, right eye,
and the text along the margin for LOP, the enveloping wall,
together CO OC LOP wherefrom Cyclops and cyclopic wall, present
in the Mycenaean symbol of a dot in a circle of dots, also known
as Argos Eye, in my opinion the emblem of the watchful union
of towns in the Argolis, each enveloped by a wall, PAS LOP Penelope,
everywhere PAS a town enveloped by a wall LOP, Magdalenian PAS
meaning everywhere (in a plain), here, south and north of me,
east and west of me, in all five places, Greek pas pan 'all, every'
and pente penta- 'five', enlarged to the above world formula
encoded in the central rosette, flower of Zeus, also known from
beautiful contemporary Karames ware in Crete.

Next time: Elaia's grove at Phigalia

[Arnaud Fournet]

Post by Franz Gnaedinger

Post by DKleinecke
Maybe you could translate Ohlenroth into English for us

You can find a short version of my interpretation of the PhD
on my page
http://www.seshat.ch/home/dsic.htm
Here the inscription on the Tiryns side or rather disc following
Derk Ohlenroth
Spiral, beginning in the center

The direction of writing is usually held to be from the outside to the center.
A.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Now for the Elaia disc that requires a wider Explanation.

The Neolithic civilization of the bird goddess in the Balkans
knew large garden sanctuaries with groves and beehives and ovens
for baking honey-sweeted bread for the pilgrims. Riders from
Central Asia overrun that civilization, remembered in the myth
of Poseidon turning into a stallion and chasing Demeter who turned
into a mare. One of the garden sanctuaries survived in Arcadia,
Elaia's grove at Phigalia, Elaia meaning olive, the goddess an
alter ego of Black Demeter Melaina, Demeter turning from a woman
into a mare, raped by Poseidon, giving birth to Despoina the
Mistress whose taboo name was Nyx, feared by all gods including
Zeus, alter ego of the powerful Gaia. Priestesses of Nyx gave
oracles in Elaia's grove, and the text on the Elaia disc, again
read from the center, tells a visitor how to call forth the goddess.
Following Derk Ohlenroth

Enter Elaia's grove, kindle peeled wood (stripped from the bark),
beat the earth round about the smoke rising from the sacrificial
fire, and neigh suddenly like a pair of horses: Aio aé! come,
Noble Late 'Night', always born anew by the goddess ...

The signs in the center field show a baking oven as emblem of
the bird goddess and her successor Demeter, goddess of cereals,
and a wave as emblem of Poseidon, originally the god of rivers.
In the entrance field you can see gifts for the goddess: swine
that were sacrificed to Demeter; bags of unwashed wool, another
gift for Demeter; portable beehives; and wine. The disc is again
representing a place, Elaia's grove, again with a couple of
guarding soldiers.

Eponymous Tiryns would have been born and raised in Lycosoura
and would often have visited Elaia's grove where he learned
a lot about planting from the priestesses who gave him twigs
of the edible olive and a variety of cereals and some portable
beehives when he left for the Argolis where he organized
agriculture and averted a famine and was appointed king of Tiryns
in honor of his achievements, mainly for introducing the edible
olive - in Homer's Odyssey the hero and his wife build their
immovable bed around the trunk of the olive tree planted by
Odysseus' father Laertes, Lord Laertes the gardener.

Next time: gold signet ring from a cache at Tiryns

Correction of the previous message: the young man and later
king of Tiryns, Eponymous Tiryns, came from Lycosura.
The PAS formula was extended to the world formula encoded
in the flower of eight petals (also present in the Sumerian
star of eight points, combined with a calendar of one year
of eight long months of 45 days, and a calendar of 8 years
or 99 lunations or 5 Venus years, their avarage practically
2922 days; dingir calendar)
Corrected link: http://www.seshat.ch/home/disc.htm

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Here the inscription on the Tiryns side or rather disc following
Derk Ohlenroth
Spiral, beginning in the center
Sseyr is the shining one also when Sseyr is the Lycaian one
whose women give birth to his equal, and if shining Tiryns
resembles the shining god, also I, personifying Tiryns,
resemble the god ...
Marked by the god and lonesome evermore and without hope
for salvation and deprived of a shadow shall return
who tries to enter without permission ...
Derk Ohlenroth believes this renders the text of an abaton
(forbidden zone, nobody else allowed to enter) in Arcadia,
where Eponymous Tiryns came from, whereas I believe that
the Tiryns disc (Phaistos Disc consisting of two clay discs
baked together) represents Tiryns ruled by Eponymous Tiryns
honored as Lord Laertes the gardener in Homer's Odyssey.
Eponymous Tiryns, coming from Lycos near Arcadia in the
western Peloponnese, claims that Sseyr Sseus Zeus not only
rules the Argolis but also Arcadia, so that he, coming from
the west, justly governs Tiryns in the east. The disc represents
shining Tiryns, by then on the shore (that meanwhile receded
by three kilometers), on top of the limestone hill the former
Round Building, a rosette of stone blocks at the base still extant
in situ, on the disc represented by the rosette of eight petals
in the center, a building that included a Zeus shrine and may
well have served as lighthouse for the ships approaching Tiryns
- shining white and a blazing fire at the top. The rosette has
one more function as a lunisolar calendar, each petal a long month
of 45 days (five Homeric weeks of nine days), all eight petals
a basic year of 360 days, add 5 and sometimes 6 days for the
small circle in the center and you have a regular year of 365
and an occasional leap year of 366 days, while 21 continuous
periods of 45 days are 945 days and correspond to 32 lunations
or synodic months. Then the rosette is also a windrose, and a
world formula in the Magdalenian sense: here and now (small circle
in the center), south and north, east and west, below and above,
past and future (eight petals). The text along the spiral is
a self-apotheosis of king Eponymous Tiryns, while the text along
the spiral represents the wall around Tiryns, both texts beginning
with emphatic Ss (flower of Zeus), the text along the margin
magically enforcing the wall with four curses of archaic power
that will befall those who enter without legitimation. The male face
following the rosette in the center is Eponymous Tiryns ruling the polis
in the name of Sseyr Sseus Zeus (double circle in the shape of an 8
on his cheek, the upper circle for Zeus, the lower for himself).
Look how many soldiers watch him and Tiryns and the gate and across
the wall! The male head in the center stands for Magdalenian CO,
an active mind, the many gards watching out for OC, right eye,
and the text along the margin for LOP, the enveloping wall,
together CO OC LOP wherefrom Cyclops and cyclopic wall, present
in the Mycenaean symbol of a dot in a circle of dots, also known
as Argos Eye, in my opinion the emblem of the watchful union
of towns in the Argolis, each enveloped by a wall, PAS LOP Penelope,
everywhere PAS a town enveloped by a wall LOP, Magdalenian PAS
meaning everywhere (in a plain), here, south and north of me,
east and west of me, in all five places, Greek pas pan 'all, every'
and pente penta- 'five', enlarged to the above world formula
encoded in the central rosette, flower of Zeus, also known from
beautiful contemporary Karames ware in Crete.
Next time: Elaia's grove at Phigalia

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Let me render my hypothesis regarding the gold signet ring from a cache
at Tiryns in the form of a story or fable.

Eponymous Tiryns had good friends at Phaistos in the fertile
Mesara plain of southern Crete, among them a scribe and a goldsmith.
He asked them for a pair of gold discs he can wear on his shoulders,
one representing Tiryns, the other Elaia's grove at Phigalia.
Now Crete in the Middle Minoan / Helladic period of time was
a laboratory of early writing. Our scribe solved the task with a pair
of graphic poems. He invented a peculiar alphabet of tiny pictures,
more pictures than phonemes, for example six different signs for alpha,
allowing him to choose the picture fitting best in a given verbal and
graphic context. He made two clay discs, each one with a spiral and a ring,
one spiral and ring representing Tiryns enclosed by a palisades, the other
Elaia's grove at Phigalia, using wooden stamps for the signs. Hereupon
the goldsmith used the pair of clay discs as models for a pair of very
finely crafted gold discs, in around 1 650 BC, proudly worn on his
shoulders by Eponymous Tiryns and then by his successors of the Middle
Helladic period of time at Tiryns, by then on the shore of the bay
(that later receeded) and on the river Manesse (that later, following
a devastating flood, had been diverted by a long and high dam around
the mountain east of Tiryns, in a Herculean effort of a Late Helladic
engineer and his workers).

The founder of the Late Helladic period at Tiryns built a new palace
on the limestone hill and honored the Middle Helladic dynasty and
the agricultural miracle achieved by Eponymous Tiryns with a large fresco
in the throne room, showing Demeter in a rich gown decorated with grains,
under a sky of raining grains, behind her Zeus in the guise of an eagle,
before her Eponymous Tiryns raising a libation jug in her honor, behind
him three successors, all four kings wearing a gold disc on their
visible shoulder, between them olive twigs evoking Elaia, goddess of
the olive, here in personal union with Demeter, goddess of cereals.
The four kings were shown in a funny way: as lion-wolf-dog-bee-men,
the lion a regal animal, the wolf indicating Eponymous Tiryns' origin, Lycosoura, lykos meaning wolf, the dog a watchful guard, the bee an
emblem of industrious farming life, and as men standing upright ...
A Cretan goldsmith in the service of the Argivians made a marvellous
copy of the (now long lost) fresco on a gold signet ring he crafted
with a crystal lense (as we know them from Troy), rich in detail,
although the long diameter of the oval measures no more than 57
millimeters, even the gold discs on the visible shoulders of the
four kings were given in excellent definitions allowing strong
magnifications, the diameter of the largest spiral on the shoulder
of the first king in line, Eponymous Tiryns, just being two millimeters

Loading Image...
Loading Image...
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The clay discs, baked together, were found in a store room of the old
palace at Phaistos, while the gold signet ring was discovered in a cache
at Tiryns. The northern parts of the ruins on the limestone hill of Tiryns
have not yet been excavated. Maybe there is another cache waiting for
a lucky archaeologist? containing the pair of lost gold discs? and other
charms that will shed more light on Greece in the making?

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Now for the Elaia disc that requires a wider Explanation.
The Neolithic civilization of the bird goddess in the Balkans
knew large garden sanctuaries with groves and beehives and ovens
for baking honey-sweeted bread for the pilgrims. Riders from
Central Asia overrun that civilization, remembered in the myth
of Poseidon turning into a stallion and chasing Demeter who turned
into a mare. One of the garden sanctuaries survived in Arcadia,
Elaia's grove at Phigalia, Elaia meaning olive, the goddess an
alter ego of Black Demeter Melaina, Demeter turning from a woman
into a mare, raped by Poseidon, giving birth to Despoina the
Mistress whose taboo name was Nyx, feared by all gods including
Zeus, alter ego of the powerful Gaia. Priestesses of Nyx gave
oracles in Elaia's grove, and the text on the Elaia disc, again
read from the center, tells a visitor how to call forth the goddess.
Following Derk Ohlenroth
Enter Elaia's grove, kindle peeled wood (stripped from the bark),
beat the earth round about the smoke rising from the sacrificial
fire, and neigh suddenly like a pair of horses: Aio aé! come,
Noble Late 'Night', always born anew by the goddess ...
The signs in the center field show a baking oven as emblem of
the bird goddess and her successor Demeter, goddess of cereals,
and a wave as emblem of Poseidon, originally the god of rivers.
In the entrance field you can see gifts for the goddess: swine
that were sacrificed to Demeter; bags of unwashed wool, another
gift for Demeter; portable beehives; and wine. The disc is again
representing a place, Elaia's grove, again with a couple of
guarding soldiers.
Eponymous Tiryns would have been born and raised in Lycosoura
and would often have visited Elaia's grove where he learned
a lot about planting from the priestesses who gave him twigs
of the edible olive and a variety of cereals and some portable
beehives when he left for the Argolis where he organized
agriculture and averted a famine and was appointed king of Tiryns
in honor of his achievements, mainly for introducing the edible
olive - in Homer's Odyssey the hero and his wife build their
immovable bed around the trunk of the olive tree planted by
Odysseus' father Laertes, Lord Laertes the gardener.
Next time: gold signet ring from a cache at Tiryns
Correction of the previous message: the young man and later
king of Tiryns, Eponymous Tiryns, came from Lycosura.
The PAS formula was extended to the world formula encoded
in the flower of eight petals (also present in the Sumerian
star of eight points, combined with a calendar of one year
of eight long months of 45 days, and a calendar of 8 years
or 99 lunations or 5 Venus years, their avarage practically
2922 days; dingir calendar)
Corrected link: http://www.seshat.ch/home/disc.htm

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Entropy increases not only toward the future but also toward
the past, meaning we need ever more brain power in piecing together
ever fewer and smaller fragments of bygone times.

The Phaistos Disc isn't really a singular object. One of the signs
returns on the gold signet ring from a cache at Tiryns, nearly of
the same size - what I consider an olive twig.

Black Demeter Melaina, Demeter turning into a horse while being
chased by Poseidon in the guise of a stallion, is present in
a sign on the disc, a woman with a prolonged face and growing mane.
The peculiar alphabet was also used for inscribing a bronze double
axe in the cave of Arkolochori, again deciphered by Derk Ohlenroth

DAeIOYS LO(Y)S(I)A EIMI
I belong to the goddess Lousia

Lousia the Angry One was the Minoan equivalent of Black Demeter
Melaina from Phigalia who was raped by Poseidon and in her anger
caused a famine.

Lion-wolf-dog-bee-men are widespread in the legacy of the Peloponnese,
often shown as pair planting a tree in between them.

Plantations need rain that was invoked from Dictynna according
to the inscription on the altar stone near the palace of Mallia,
also deciphered by Derk Ohlenroth

DIKTYNNAI SLAI YEIN

Dictynna was a goddess of mountains and the sea, also, in my opinion,
the Minoan triple goddess of vegetation

Britomartis, sowing, spring equinox
Dictynna, summer solstice
Lousia, harvest, fall equinox
(when angry a meagre harvest)
Dictynna, winter solstice
(Dictaean cave, birth of Minoan Zeus)

Then there is the Minoan seal showing Elaia (my interpretation)
in a boat with a young olive tree, the bow turning into neck
and head of a horse evoking Poseidon in the guise of a stallion,
a giant bee flying toward a hive.

Agriculture was the basis of Minoan Crete and of Greece alike.
What we now take for granted was by then a great achievement,
celebrated for example by the Phaistos Disc that honors
the botanical garden of Demeter-Elaia and her priestesses
at Phigalia and Lord Laertes the gardener at Tiryns, by then
on the Argivian bay, gate to a marvel of early agriculture
in the Argolis.

Next time: from Laertes to Odysseus in Magdalenian readings
of geographical and personal names

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Let me render my hypothesis regarding the gold signet ring from a cache
at Tiryns in the form of a story or fable.
Eponymous Tiryns had good friends at Phaistos in the fertile
Mesara plain of southern Crete, among them a scribe and a goldsmith.
He asked them for a pair of gold discs he can wear on his shoulders,
one representing Tiryns, the other Elaia's grove at Phigalia.
Now Crete in the Middle Minoan / Helladic period of time was
a laboratory of early writing. Our scribe solved the task with a pair
of graphic poems. He invented a peculiar alphabet of tiny pictures,
more pictures than phonemes, for example six different signs for alpha,
allowing him to choose the picture fitting best in a given verbal and
graphic context. He made two clay discs, each one with a spiral and a ring,
one spiral and ring representing Tiryns enclosed by a palisades, the other
Elaia's grove at Phigalia, using wooden stamps for the signs. Hereupon
the goldsmith used the pair of clay discs as models for a pair of very
finely crafted gold discs, in around 1 650 BC, proudly worn on his
shoulders by Eponymous Tiryns and then by his successors of the Middle
Helladic period of time at Tiryns, by then on the shore of the bay
(that later receeded) and on the river Manesse (that later, following
a devastating flood, had been diverted by a long and high dam around
the mountain east of Tiryns, in a Herculean effort of a Late Helladic
engineer and his workers).
The founder of the Late Helladic period at Tiryns built a new palace
on the limestone hill and honored the Middle Helladic dynasty and
the agricultural miracle achieved by Eponymous Tiryns with a large fresco
in the throne room, showing Demeter in a rich gown decorated with grains,
under a sky of raining grains, behind her Zeus in the guise of an eagle,
before her Eponymous Tiryns raising a libation jug in her honor, behind
him three successors, all four kings wearing a gold disc on their
visible shoulder, between them olive twigs evoking Elaia, goddess of
the olive, here in personal union with Demeter, goddess of cereals.
The four kings were shown in a funny way: as lion-wolf-dog-bee-men,
the lion a regal animal, the wolf indicating Eponymous Tiryns' origin, Lycosoura, lykos meaning wolf, the dog a watchful guard, the bee an
emblem of industrious farming life, and as men standing upright ...
A Cretan goldsmith in the service of the Argivians made a marvellous
copy of the (now long lost) fresco on a gold signet ring he crafted
with a crystal lense (as we know them from Troy), rich in detail,
although the long diameter of the oval measures no more than 57
millimeters, even the gold discs on the visible shoulders of the
four kings were given in excellent definitions allowing strong
magnifications, the diameter of the largest spiral on the shoulder
of the first king in line, Eponymous Tiryns, just being two millimeters
http://www.seshat.ch/home/ring.gif
http://www.seshat.ch/home/ring2.JPG
http://www.seshat.ch/home/ring3.JPG
The clay discs, baked together, were found in a store room of the old
palace at Phaistos, while the gold signet ring was discovered in a cache
at Tiryns. The northern parts of the ruins on the limestone hill of Tiryns
have not yet been excavated. Maybe there is another cache waiting for
a lucky archaeologist? containing the pair of lost gold discs? and other
charms that will shed more light on Greece in the making?

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Odysseus and Penelope build their immovable bed around the trunk
of an olive tree planted by Laertes. This one personifies
Middle Helladic Tiryns and the Argolis, Odysseus and Penelope
the Argolis and Peloponnese in the time of the Trojan war

PAS LOP Penelope
everywhere PAS enveloping walls LOP
Argolis personified

POL LOP PAS Peloponnese
fortified settlements POL
enveloped in walls LOP
everywhere PAS

CO OC LOP cyclopic wall
attentive mind CO
right eye OC
enveloping wall LOP

This compound names the organization of a fortified settlement,
in the center the ruler of the focused mind CO, around him
guards of the open eyes, in the town, at the gate, and along
the enveloping wall as visualized on the Tiryns disc: the ruler
in the name of Sseyr Sseus Zeus in the center field, around him
soldiers, in the town, at the gate, and along the enveloping
wall or palisade enforced by the magic power of the banning
formula. The most famous cyclops was Polyphem, Homeric symbol
of Troy, his one eye the acropolis overlooking the river plain,
his body downtown Troy VIIa providing protected shelter for
5,000 to 10,000 people

TYR PAS Taruwisa Troy
overcomer TYR everywhere PAS
Troy ruling over the Troas
including the Dardanelles or Hellespont

POL LAS Wilusa (W)ilios Ilion
fortified settlement POL mountain LAS
Polyphem resembling more a wooded mountain top
than a man who eats bread (Homer in the Odyssey)

AD DA SAI Odysseus
life SAI along rivers that flow toward AD the sea
while coming from DA hills or mountains

A blocked river can get angry - odyssomai 'to be angry' - and rise
above the banks, flood the river plain and devastate the fields.
Another fierce warrior was named for a river tsunami, rising water
attacking suddenly in the way of a lion

AChI )EI Achilleus Achilles
rising water AChI attacking lion )EI

In the case of Odysseus the metaphorical river was the supply
of tin from Central Asia blocked by Troy on the Dardanelles
or Hellespont, asking for high tributes, confiscating shiploads,
abducting Helen, as it were, beautiful Helen being the Homeric
symbol of tin, her white arms tin ingots, and her long glittering
robes made by herself the glittering tin ore cassitterite

KAL EN Helen
cave Underworld KAL in EN
she in the cave or mine

Ithaca, home of Laertes and Odysseus, would originally have been
far more than a relatively small island - the entire Peloponnese
focused in the Argolis

ITA CA Ithaca
young bull ITA sky CA
under the sky of the young Zeus bull
Argolis and Peloponnese in the Helladic period of time

ATI CA Attika
mature bull ATI sky CA
under the sky of the mature Zeus bull
classical Greece forming in the time of the Messenian wars

Telemachos, grandson of Laertes and son of Odysseus and Penelope
would personify Greece in the time of the Messenian wars, Homer I
of the Iliad living in the time of the first Messenian war,
Homer II of the Odyssey in the time of the second Messenian war,
both Homers concerned about the coherence of the Greek culture,
each one compiling ample bardic material along a narrative into
an epic, the Iliad and the Odyssey.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Entropy increases not only toward the future but also toward
the past, meaning we need ever more brain power in piecing together
ever fewer and smaller fragments of bygone times.
The Phaistos Disc isn't really a singular object. One of the signs
returns on the gold signet ring from a cache at Tiryns, nearly of
the same size - what I consider an olive twig.
Black Demeter Melaina, Demeter turning into a horse while being
chased by Poseidon in the guise of a stallion, is present in
a sign on the disc, a woman with a prolonged face and growing mane.
The peculiar alphabet was also used for inscribing a bronze double
axe in the cave of Arkolochori, again deciphered by Derk Ohlenroth
DAeIOYS LO(Y)S(I)A EIMI
I belong to the goddess Lousia
Lousia the Angry One was the Minoan equivalent of Black Demeter
Melaina from Phigalia who was raped by Poseidon and in her anger
caused a famine.
Lion-wolf-dog-bee-men are widespread in the legacy of the Peloponnese,
often shown as pair planting a tree in between them.
Plantations need rain that was invoked from Dictynna according
to the inscription on the altar stone near the palace of Mallia,
also deciphered by Derk Ohlenroth
DIKTYNNAI SLAI YEIN
Dictynna was a goddess of mountains and the sea, also, in my opinion,
the Minoan triple goddess of vegetation
Britomartis, sowing, spring equinox
Dictynna, summer solstice
Lousia, harvest, fall equinox
(when angry a meagre harvest)
Dictynna, winter solstice
(Dictaean cave, birth of Minoan Zeus)
Then there is the Minoan seal showing Elaia (my interpretation)
in a boat with a young olive tree, the bow turning into neck
and head of a horse evoking Poseidon in the guise of a stallion,
a giant bee flying toward a hive.
Agriculture was the basis of Minoan Crete and of Greece alike.
What we now take for granted was by then a great achievement,
celebrated for example by the Phaistos Disc that honors
the botanical garden of Demeter-Elaia and her priestesses
at Phigalia and Lord Laertes the gardener at Tiryns, by then
on the Argivian bay, gate to a marvel of early agriculture
in the Argolis.
Next time: from Laertes to Odysseus in Magdalenian readings
of geographical and personal names

[Franz Gnaedinger]

For those interested in my interpretation of the Phaistos Disc:
you can find a revised version in my current Magdalenian thread,
and on my website, Lascaux 7, scroll down to the end

http://www.seshat.ch/home/lascaux7.htm

Lascaux 7 - life in the light of abilities / © 2014 Franz Gnaedinger

Wild Wild West of the World Wide Web / triangular definition of language / making sense of Homer / Magdalenian and modern understanding of the soul, animus atman pneuma spirit, origin of the gods, to love and work (our place in the world) / oscillations within the verbal morphospace, etymology of English fur (with a caveat), comment for beginners, genetics and word language / is mathematics a language? / Magdalenian revival (10 parts) / Ararat Masis Judi, Azzi Hayasa Armenia, land of Kar-da / Ebla in the wheat growing land of Minut founded a colony at Knossos ruled by Minos, Ur Ebla Knossos / Lascaux in the light of equal unequal (two parts) / Human Brain Project again (3 parts) / English fur (PIE logic and Magdalenian logic) / Magdalenian catechism / truth, analogies, and creativity (3 parts) / Hebrew palal 'pray' (2 parts) / communication and language / many ways of saying yes (2 parts) / Magdalenian grammar / Magdalenian formula of leading a good life (obligations balanced by rights and freedom) / many ways of saying yes (part 3) / dog and hound / etymologies of English soul and Greek psychae / shamanic soul formula / grammar of many grammars / Gothic saiwala 'soul' and saihwan 'see' / Phaistos Disc again (six parts) --- life in the light of abilities and the soul as coordinator of our many and various abilities --- (may the insights gained by playing my hermeneutic muscle compensate for my limited English)

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Odysseus and Penelope build their immovable bed around the trunk
of an olive tree planted by Laertes. This one personifies
Middle Helladic Tiryns and the Argolis, Odysseus and Penelope
the Argolis and Peloponnese in the time of the Trojan war
PAS LOP Penelope
everywhere PAS enveloping walls LOP
Argolis personified
POL LOP PAS Peloponnese
fortified settlements POL
enveloped in walls LOP
everywhere PAS
CO OC LOP cyclopic wall
attentive mind CO
right eye OC
enveloping wall LOP
This compound names the organization of a fortified settlement,
in the center the ruler of the focused mind CO, around him
guards of the open eyes, in the town, at the gate, and along
the enveloping wall as visualized on the Tiryns disc: the ruler
in the name of Sseyr Sseus Zeus in the center field, around him
soldiers, in the town, at the gate, and along the enveloping
wall or palisade enforced by the magic power of the banning
formula. The most famous cyclops was Polyphem, Homeric symbol
of Troy, his one eye the acropolis overlooking the river plain,
his body downtown Troy VIIa providing protected shelter for
5,000 to 10,000 people
TYR PAS Taruwisa Troy
overcomer TYR everywhere PAS
Troy ruling over the Troas
including the Dardanelles or Hellespont
POL LAS Wilusa (W)ilios Ilion
fortified settlement POL mountain LAS
Polyphem resembling more a wooded mountain top
than a man who eats bread (Homer in the Odyssey)
AD DA SAI Odysseus
life SAI along rivers that flow toward AD the sea
while coming from DA hills or mountains
A blocked river can get angry - odyssomai 'to be angry' - and rise
above the banks, flood the river plain and devastate the fields.
Another fierce warrior was named for a river tsunami, rising water
attacking suddenly in the way of a lion
AChI )EI Achilleus Achilles
rising water AChI attacking lion )EI
In the case of Odysseus the metaphorical river was the supply
of tin from Central Asia blocked by Troy on the Dardanelles
or Hellespont, asking for high tributes, confiscating shiploads,
abducting Helen, as it were, beautiful Helen being the Homeric
symbol of tin, her white arms tin ingots, and her long glittering
robes made by herself the glittering tin ore cassitterite
KAL EN Helen
cave Underworld KAL in EN
she in the cave or mine
Ithaca, home of Laertes and Odysseus, would originally have been
far more than a relatively small island - the entire Peloponnese
focused in the Argolis
ITA CA Ithaca
young bull ITA sky CA
under the sky of the young Zeus bull
Argolis and Peloponnese in the Helladic period of time
ATI CA Attika
mature bull ATI sky CA
under the sky of the mature Zeus bull
classical Greece forming in the time of the Messenian wars
Telemachos, grandson of Laertes and son of Odysseus and Penelope
would personify Greece in the time of the Messenian wars, Homer I
of the Iliad living in the time of the first Messenian war,
Homer II of the Odyssey in the time of the second Messenian war,
both Homers concerned about the coherence of the Greek culture,
each one compiling ample bardic material along a narrative into
an epic, the Iliad and the Odyssey.

[Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski]

Post by Jens Stuckelberger
Are you serious?

As befits a lunatic, Franz is perfectly serious and has no sense of humor.

[p***@gmail.com]

The "translation" by Professor Derk Ohlenroth is just as bogus as the more recent one by Dr. Owens, or as all those that try to "read" the signs as "writing". You will find my discussion of Ohlenroth's interpretation halfway down the page http://phaistosgame.com/Instant-Reading.htm, and here is an excerpt from it:

"... according to an article in the German newsweekly "Der Spiegel", Dr. Ohlenroth, a Professor of Middle High German, had a sudden inspiration that the signs were ancient Greek writing. Once he had realized this breakthrough, he figured out the meanings of the signs within two hours of his "Eureka!" moment.

According to that inspiration, the inscriptions are free verse in a "special dialect" of Greek, and they deal with two sanctuaries in mainland Greece. One side is an execration text that curses anyone who enters the cult area of Zeus. It also cruelly condemns said felon to lose his shadow. The other side is a magical invocation of the night goddess Elaia and contains such exhortations as the following which the author finds "poetically exciting".

Now, poetry is notoriously difficult to translate, so I apologize if this undoubted but subtly hidden quality in Professor Ohlenroth's German translation of the Disk does not come through fully in my English rendering :

"Light up wood that is smoothed all around;
forming a circle around the sacrificial smoke,
beat on the ground, and all of a sudden
neigh wildly like a pair of horses."

The article does not state what kind of smoke that was, nor how much of it Professor Ohlenroth had inhaled."

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Post by p***@gmail.com
"... according to an article in the German newsweekly "Der Spiegel", Dr. Ohlenroth, a Professor of Middle High German, had a sudden inspiration that the signs were ancient Greek writing. Once he had realized this breakthrough, he figured out the meanings of the signs within two hours of his "Eureka!" moment.

You read the arcticle of not even two pages not very carefully.
Derk Ohlenroth studied the Phaistos Disc for decades, and then,
one evening, returning home from work, he had an inspiration:
what if the frequent combination of shield and soldier stands for
the masculine Greek ending -OS ? This was the fulguration and reward
for decades of studying the riddle. Now he needed just two hours
for deciphering both sides, or rather both discs baked together.

I read the article in the late 1990s and went buying the book,
which, I must say, is written in a very difficult German making
look the philosopher Kant a schoolboy in comparison. I fully
agree on his decipherment, while proposing a different historical
interpretation, the one summarized here in my short series of
messages.

You propose another interpretation entirely. Your careless
review of the 'Spiegel' article gives me no desire to open
your page and read your paper. Just answer this question:
does your interpretation open a window on the past?

[p***@gmail.com]

You will find on that page http://phaistosgame.com/Instant-Reading.htm many additional "readings" of the Phaistos Disk which have in common that they are all wrong. It turns out those pretty signs were not writing but logographs, that is, pictures that mean what they represent. The entire sequence of 61 fields on both sides gives the illustrations on the path of a gameboard that was similar to the gameboards for the ancient Egyptian games of Senet and Snake Game and, like those, depicted the path of the player through life from birth to initiation to death plus the passage through the afterworld to resurrection in the third field after death.

Near the bottom of my page http://phaistosgame.com there are links to a series of artciles published in the quarterly online journal popular-archaeology.com which present the details of this interpretation and show how all the elements fall easily into place without the forcing required for all the "readings" of the signs as "writing". Enjoy the reading!

[p***@gmail.com]

You should have added to your link that the title of the article at Biblical Archaeology Review about Dr. Owens' claimed "cracking of the code" is "Phaistos Disk Deciphered? Not Likely, Say Scholars". The gist of that article and of the comments added by two scholars is the conclusion of the last among those comments:

"In the end, Owens's "readings" are based on a stack of unverifiable assumptions; his conclusions are unproven, and unprovable. It's not surprising, then, that so many scholars of Aegean Bronze Age scripts aren't accepting them."

This applies to all attempts to "read" the signs as "script" whereas the entire Disk becomes rather clear when you quit that assumption and see the signs as the illustrations for the fields of a gameboard like those for quite similar ancient Egyptian games. This view makes all the parts of the puzzle fall into place and has much external confirmation. See http://phaistosgame.com, and particularly the links near the bottom of that page to a series of articles about the Disk in popular-archaeology.com.