The etymology of the German Hell...

[Heidi Graw]

Hello Illustrious Scholars and Experts Extraordinaire of sci.lang! ;-)

Some of you may remember my making a nuisance of myself some time ago.
Well...I'm BACK! You may now all shudder and convulse if you will. I'm
here to pick your brains....Hehehehe...;-)

Anyway, I've got one Hel of a question for you. Perhaps some of you can
oblige me.

From the on-line etymology dictionary:

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=Hell&searchmode=none

O.E. hel, helle "nether world, abode of the dead, infernal regions," from
P.Gmc. *khaljo (cf. O.Fris. helle, O.N. hel, Ger. Hölle, Goth. halja "hell")
"the underworld," lit. "concealed place," from PIE *kel- "to cover, conceal,
save" (see cell). The Eng. word may be in part from O.N. Hel (from P.Gmc.
*khalija "one who covers up or hides something"), in Norse mythology Loki's
daughter, who rules over the evil dead in Niflheim, the lowest of all worlds
(nifl "mist"), a death aspect of the three-fold goddess. Transfer of a pagan
concept and word to a Christian idiom, used in the K.J.V. for O.T. Heb.
Sheol, N.T. Gk. Hades, Gehenna. Used figuratively for "any bad experience"
since at least 1374. As an expression of disgust, etc., first recorded 1678.
Hell-bent is from 1835. Hell-raiser is from 1914 (to raise hell is from
1896); hellacious is 1930s college slang. Expression Hell in a handbasket is
c.1941, perhaps a revision of earlier heaven in a handbasket (c.1913), with
a sense of "easy passage" to whichever destination. Expression hell of a
_____ is attested from 1776. Hell or high water is apparently a variation of
between the devil and the deep blue sea. To wish someone would go to hell is
in Shakespeare (1596). Snowball's chance in hell "no chance" is from 1931;
till hell freezes over "never" is from 1919. To ride hell for leather is
from 1889, originally with reference to riding on horseback. Hell on wheels
is from 1843.

*****

O.k...that translation takes care of Hel and Hell as far as Old English and
Old Norse are concerned.

What I would like to know is the etymology of the German word "hell" which
means "clear, fair, light." The word "Helle" in German means "brightness,
clearness." There are all sorts of German gals named "Hella." So, a German
woman named Hella would have had that name attributed to her because she
looks bright and fair. She may be a blonde and blue-eyed lady.

Is this German "hell" in any way connected to the P.Gmc. *khaljo and/or
from PIE *kel- meaning "to cover, conceal save [as in save to keep]?"

If it has that shared root, when and why did this word take on a different
meaning....bright instead of concealed? Is it possible to be bright and
concealed, ie. like a buried crystal?

If it does not have that shared origin, from whence did this word come?

I don't have access to a German language etymology dictionary, so any help
you could provide would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Heidi

[p***@abo.fi]

Post by Heidi Graw
*****
Is this German "hell" in any way connected to the P.Gmc. *khaljo and/or
from PIE *kel- meaning "to cover, conceal save [as in save to keep]?"

According to Wahrig, it comes from a PIE root *kel- meaning "rufen",
i.e. to call, to shout, and it is related to such German words as Hall
(as in "widerhallen") and Schall, Schelle. Intermediary stages are
Middle High German hellen "ertönen" (i.e. "to resound, to ring out")
and hel "tönend, laut, licht glänzend" i.e. "loud, luminous" - I
guess you can speak about loud colours or say that a colour is too
loud, in English, too.

[Heidi Graw]

Post by p***@abo.fi
*****

Post by Heidi Graw
Is this German "hell" in any way connected to the P.Gmc. *khaljo and/or
from PIE *kel- meaning "to cover, conceal save [as in save to keep]?"

According to Wahrig, it comes from a PIE root *kel- meaning "rufen",
i.e. to call, to shout, and it is related to such German words as Hall
(as in "widerhallen") and Schall, Schelle. Intermediary stages are
Middle High German hellen "ertönen" (i.e. "to resound, to ring out")
and hel "tönend, laut, licht glänzend" i.e. "loud, luminous" - I
guess you can speak about loud colours or say that a colour is too
loud, in English, too.

Oh wow...does that ever help towards clearing up a mystery! I had come
across a kenning for Hel that refered to her as "Gna of Glitnir."...a stanza
found in the Ynglinga Saga 20 which someone else roughly translated:

From the translater:

"Here's a more or less literal prosaic translation of the stanza:

"I speak no secret, (when I say) that the Gná of
Glitnir keeps Dyggvi's corpse for her amusement,
because the sister of Wolf and Narfi chose the
kingly one, and Loki's maiden has entangled the
overlord of Yngvi's nation."


Hel loud and luminous, possibly wildly colourful...like a rainbow, perhaps?
Hmmmm... One can't conceal much if one is brilliantly loud about it. ;-)

If anyone else has more to add, please do so!

Thanks so much! ;-)

Heidi

[Alan]

"Heidi Graw" wrote >

Post by Heidi Graw

Post by p***@abo.fi
*****

Post by Heidi Graw
Is this German "hell" in any way connected to the P.Gmc. *khaljo and/or
from PIE *kel- meaning "to cover, conceal save [as in save to keep]?"

According to Wahrig, it comes from a PIE root *kel- meaning "rufen",
i.e. to call, to shout, and it is related to such German words as Hall
(as in "widerhallen") and Schall, Schelle. Intermediary stages are
Middle High German hellen "ertönen" (i.e. "to resound, to ring out")
and hel "tönend, laut, licht glänzend" i.e. "loud, luminous" - I
guess you can speak about loud colours or say that a colour is too
loud, in English, too.

Oh wow...does that ever help towards clearing up a mystery! I had come
across a kenning for Hel that refered to her as "Gna of Glitnir."...a
stanza found in the Ynglinga Saga 20 which someone else roughly
"I speak no secret, (when I say) that the Gná of
Glitnir keeps Dyggvi's corpse for her amusement,
because the sister of Wolf and Narfi chose the
kingly one, and Loki's maiden has entangled the
overlord of Yngvi's nation."
Hel loud and luminous, possibly wildly colourful...like a rainbow,
perhaps? Hmmmm... One can't conceal much if one is brilliantly loud about
it. ;-)
If anyone else has more to add, please do so!

Oh wow, before you confuse yourself any further, and jump to even wilder
conclusions, you might want to read the following regarding the origins of
the name "Hel" (variants "Hella", "Hölle", etc):
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/5595/gods/hela.html

You'll see that her name has nothing at all to do with brightness,
lightness, or blondeness. That Hel was referred to as "Gná-of-Glitnir" (in
the Ynglingatal, by the way --- *not* the Ynglinga) also has nothing at all
to do with "brightness" or any "wildly colourful" aspect of Hel, in spite of
the fact that Glitnir happens to mean "shining" or "glistening". Glitnir is
the name of the Norse god Forseti's house, and Gná, a horse-goddess,
happened to stay there. For reasons known only to old Norse poets (and
perhaps a few others), gods and goddessses were sometimes referred to by the
names of other gods and goddesses. Gná, in any case, was not known for
brightness, blondeness, or colorfulness; she just happened to live in
Forseti's silver-roofed and copper-columned house.
It's noted also in the reference supplied above that " Hella's colours are
black or deep blue-black and white" . . .

[Heidi Graw]

(snip)

Post by Alan

Post by p***@abo.fi

Post by Heidi Graw
Is this German "hell" in any way connected to the P.Gmc. *khaljo
and/or
from PIE *kel- meaning "to cover, conceal save [as in save to keep]?"

According to Wahrig, it comes from a PIE root *kel- meaning "rufen",
i.e. to call, to shout, and it is related to such German words as Hall
(as in "widerhallen") and Schall, Schelle. Intermediary stages are
Middle High German hellen "ertönen" (i.e. "to resound, to ring out")
and hel "tönend, laut, licht glänzend" i.e. "loud, luminous" - I
guess you can speak about loud colours or say that a colour is too
loud, in English, too.

(snip)

Post by Alan
Oh wow, before you confuse yourself any further, and jump to even wilder
conclusions, you might want to read the following regarding the origins of
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/5595/gods/hela.html

Alan, reconcile for me, please, the two different meanings offered for the
root PIE: *kel-

The one claims "to cover, conceal"...the other "rufen"..."to call, ring out,
luminous"

Old Norse and Old English claims Hella is that dark concealed one. Old
German, however, claims Hella is bright an fair. Two paths seemed to have
diverged from the root *kel-.

The one claiming *kel- is related to cell or cellar, and perhaps the German
Keller. However, to kellen, being a German speaker myself, I can understand
how *kel- can be related to sound...to call. Kelle in German can mean
signal. How do you signal someone? By calling perhaps? Anyway, a German
dialect of some sort may account for the difference.

In any case, there's a bunch of other stuff about Hel that I'm examining.
It's good to know that Wahrig has a different interpretation. I can also
understand why Wahrig may have chosen it.

Heidi

[Alan]

Post by Heidi Graw
(snip)

Post by Alan

Post by p***@abo.fi

Post by Heidi Graw
Is this German "hell" in any way connected to the P.Gmc. *khaljo
and/or
from PIE *kel- meaning "to cover, conceal save [as in save to keep]?"

According to Wahrig, it comes from a PIE root *kel- meaning "rufen",
i.e. to call, to shout, and it is related to such German words as Hall
(as in "widerhallen") and Schall, Schelle. Intermediary stages are
Middle High German hellen "ertönen" (i.e. "to resound, to ring out")
and hel "tönend, laut, licht glänzend" i.e. "loud, luminous" - I
guess you can speak about loud colours or say that a colour is too
loud, in English, too.

(snip)

Post by Alan
Oh wow, before you confuse yourself any further, and jump to even wilder
conclusions, you might want to read the following regarding the origins
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/5595/gods/hela.html

Alan, reconcile for me, please, the two different meanings offered for the
root PIE: *kel-
The one claims "to cover, conceal"...the other "rufen"..."to call, ring
out, luminous"
Old Norse and Old English claims Hella is that dark concealed one. Old
German, however, claims Hella is bright an fair. Two paths seemed to have
diverged from the root *kel-.
The one claiming *kel- is related to cell or cellar, and perhaps the
German Keller. However, to kellen, being a German speaker myself, I can
understand how *kel- can be related to sound...to call. Kelle in German
can mean signal. How do you signal someone? By calling perhaps?
Anyway, a German dialect of some sort may account for the difference.
In any case, there's a bunch of other stuff about Hel that I'm examining.
It's good to know that Wahrig has a different interpretation. I can also
understand why Wahrig may have chosen it.

First of all, it's important to realize that Wahrig doesn't have a
"different" interpretation for the meaning of *kel-. He has offered *kel-
(to shout) as PIE root for the German word "hell" meaning bright, light, or
loud. If Wahrig were consulted regarding the PIE root of the German word
"Hölle", he would have offered the PIE root *kel- (to conceal) as well.
There are words in English *and* in German which ultimately derive from
different meanings of the PIE *kel-. The 2 *kel are sometimes referred to
as kel-1 and kel-2. Have a look at http://www.bartleby.com/61/IEroots.html
for more detail.
Homonymous PIE roots are not rare, and there is no need to "reconcile" their
existence.

[Heidi Graw]

(snip)

Post by Alan
There are words in English *and* in German which ultimately derive from
different meanings of the PIE *kel-. The 2 *kel are sometimes referred to
as kel-1 and kel-2. Have a look at
http://www.bartleby.com/61/IEroots.html for more detail.
Homonymous PIE roots are not rare, and there is no need to "reconcile"
their existence.

Looking at the site you provided, it gives 4 kels one can pick and choose
from.

1. to cover or conceal.
2. to call, ring clear, luminous.
3. warm (as in lukewarm), cauldron
4. hill.

So, popular notions about the Goddess Hel [a.k.a. Hella] came about from the
root *kel- meaning hidden or concealed.

And the German woman's name Hella came about from the root *kel- meaning to
call, ring clear, luminous. The name Hella is understood to the Germans to
be that bright and clear one. They wouldn't have named these women Hella if
they thought the word meant dark and concealed.

This leaves the other two *kel-s taking on two more paths to arrive at two
more possible Hels or Hellas. One Hel or Hella perhaps meaning chalice,
(cauldron), possibly womb. The other Hel or Hella in reference to a
landscape...a hill.

I've bookmarked that link just in case I need it for some other words.

Thanks, Alan! ;-)

Heidi

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Post by Heidi Graw
1. to cover or conceal.
2. to call, ring clear, luminous.
3. warm (as in lukewarm), cauldron
4. hill.

Welcome back, Heidi. If you can stand some brainstorming
I'd say that these meanings of *kel- go well along, also in
German: Hoelle (hell), Helle (brightness), ein helles Lachen
(a bright or loud laughter), "Sonne, toenst in alter Weise"
(sun, resounding as ever - Goethe, opening lines of the
drama Faust), Hoehle (cave), Frau Holle (consider her
baking ovens). The origin behind all these variants must
have been the old belief that the sun traverses the earth
by night. You find this belief in Paleolithic and Mesolithic
Europe as in ancient Egypt. The morning sun can emerge
from a hill, and the evening sun can disappear into a hill.
The Underworld is a long cave with a river, the sun is
shedding a bright light in the subterranean cave, which
is a cave filled with fire. Volcanoes with their blazing fire
and thundering eruptions give an idea of the Underworld.
The Greek hellhound Kerberos was covered with fiery
tongues, he was loudly barking. German Kellar English
cellar remind of the subterranean cave. All meanings
of *kel- can be derived from the ancient idea of an
Underworld.

Kerberos was the dog of Herakles, who was a sun god.
If -kle- in his name goes back to a Magdalenian word,
it would have been a permutation of KEL. The complete
permutation group would be: KEL LEK, KLE ELK, EKL
LKE. I shall ponder these cases at home and inform you
if I find a coherent group of words around the same meme.

Do you have access to Grimm's Woerterbuch? Therein
you find many old hells, also amusing ones. For example
the space under the table of a tailor was called Hoelle,
because they sometimes let cloth disappear there.

Hoelle was also used for a bull. The Canaanitic god
Baal was a god of the sun, but also of volcanoes,
and he was represented as a bull.

As for hill: the supreme gods lived on mountain tops.
Now there is a possibility that also Satan lived on a hill.
Consider the May / June 2006 issue of BAR, Biblical
Archaeology Review, Satan's Throne, by Adela Yarbro
Collins. Collins, very convincingly, identifies Satan's
throne in John's revelations in the Bible with the hill of
the altar of Pergamon.

English hill is a derivate of *kel, does German Huegel
(-gel) come from the same word?

So far my first brainstorming. Wishing you a nice
weekend

Franz Gnaedinger www.seshat.ch

[Heidi Graw]

Post by Franz Gnaedinger

Post by Heidi Graw
1. to cover or conceal.
2. to call, ring clear, luminous.
3. warm (as in lukewarm), cauldron
4. hill.

Welcome back, Heidi.

Hi Franz! I was hoping you would add to this thread. ;-)

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
If you can stand some brainstorming

I enjoy brainstorming sessions! It's one of the best ways for generating
ideas...right or wrong, sane or insane...evaluating the validity of the
ideas is not part and parcel of a brainstorm. The evaluation comes later,
once all possible ideas have been exhausted. I've found that sometimes the
zaniest ideas can be proven to be rather quite valid and/or useful. So, go
ahead...brainstorm away! ;-)

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
I'd say that these meanings of *kel- go well along, also in
German: Hoelle (hell), Helle (brightness), ein helles Lachen
(a bright or loud laughter), "Sonne, toenst in alter Weise"
(sun, resounding as ever - Goethe, opening lines of the
drama Faust), Hoehle (cave), Frau Holle (consider her
baking ovens). The origin behind all these variants must
have been the old belief that the sun traverses the earth
by night. You find this belief in Paleolithic and Mesolithic
Europe as in ancient Egypt. The morning sun can emerge
from a hill, and the evening sun can disappear into a hill.
The Underworld is a long cave with a river, the sun is
shedding a bright light in the subterranean cave, which
is a cave filled with fire. Volcanoes with their blazing fire
and thundering eruptions give an idea of the Underworld.
The Greek hellhound Kerberos was covered with fiery
tongues, he was loudly barking. German Kellar English
cellar remind of the subterranean cave. All meanings
of *kel- can be derived from the ancient idea of an
Underworld.
Kerberos was the dog of Herakles, who was a sun god.
If -kle- in his name goes back to a Magdalenian word,
it would have been a permutation of KEL. The complete
permutation group would be: KEL LEK, KLE ELK, EKL
LKE. I shall ponder these cases at home and inform you
if I find a coherent group of words around the same meme.

Franz, I would very much like for you to read a few chapters about Hel as
Viktor Rydberg describes in his book "Teutonic Mythology" chapters 57
through 63. These are on-line at the Northvegr web resource library.

http://www.northvegr.org/lore/rydberg/057.php

Some of what you've written sound similar to what Rydberg talks about.
However, from what I've gathered from assorted people who've read his works,
he's considered by many to be far too contraversial and off-base. They
dismiss him as a loony. These same people feel the same about Grimm. In
fact, if I even mention the word Rydberg, I can end up at the receiving end
of a flame war! Whoah! What I've read of his works does at times challenge
popular and dearly held notions. This makes him unpopular with a fair
number of people. It's sounds to me as though his works would be something
you would enjoy immensely. Have you read any of his stuff?

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Do you have access to Grimm's Woerterbuch?

No, I don't. But is this what you're refering to?

http://germazope.uni-trier.de/Projects/WBB/woerterbuecher/dwb/wbgui?lemid=GA00001

It's a work in progress. They've only managed to get to the HA's... ;-)

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Therein
you find many old hells, also amusing ones. For example
the space under the table of a tailor was called Hoelle,
because they sometimes let cloth disappear there.
Hoelle was also used for a bull. The Canaanitic god
Baal was a god of the sun, but also of volcanoes,
and he was represented as a bull.
As for hill: the supreme gods lived on mountain tops.
Now there is a possibility that also Satan lived on a hill.
Consider the May / June 2006 issue of BAR, Biblical
Archaeology Review, Satan's Throne, by Adela Yarbro
Collins. Collins, very convincingly, identifies Satan's
throne in John's revelations in the Bible with the hill of
the altar of Pergamon.
English hill is a derivate of *kel, does German Huegel
(-gel) come from the same word?

Think about Germanic burial practices. If the deceased weren't cremated,
they built little hills over the corpses.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
So far my first brainstorming. Wishing you a nice
weekend

You, too, Franz! And if you get a chance, read my suggested Rydberg
chapters about Hel. If there is anything in them you wish to comment on,
you're welcome to e-mail me if you think it's going to be off-topic for
sci.lang.

Take care,
Heidi

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Post by Heidi Graw
Hi Franz! I was hoping you would add to this thread. ;-)

Thanks. Before I read your suggested text, I d'like to
inform you about a find of mine: no meme for KEL and
permutations, but for KAL and permutations, regarding
the Underworld:

KAL --- cavity, cave, especially the Underworld traversed
by sun horse and moon bull, also painted caves such
as Lascaux; ancient Greek koilon for cavity (...), German
Hoehle for cave, English hill (many caves are inside hills),
Latin calor for warmth, heat (consider the warmth inside
a deep cave), ancient Greek kallos for beautiful (caves
are beautiful, and especially the painted ones)

LAK --- water in the depth of the Underworld; ancient
Greek lakkos for hole, ditch, pond, Latin lacus English
lake and loch, German Loch for hole

KLA --- sound the sun horse and moon bull make when
traversing the Underworld; ancient Greek klaggae for
sound, singing, noise (...), German Klang for sound,
Klappern for the sound hoofs make

ALK --- protection of the sun horse and the moon bull
in the Underworld, provided by the guiding snake;
ancient Greek alkos for protection

AKL --- brightness and splendor of the Underworld
when traversed by sun or moon; ancient Greek aglaia
for shine, splendour, beauty, brightness

LKA --- light of the midsummer sunhorse and of the
full moon; ancient Greek lyka-genaes for born out of
light (byname of Apollon), lyka-bas for year

Richard Fester proposed KALL for cave, woman,
source of life, and many more correlated meanings,
providing a long and impressive list of words in many
languages. The Indo-European reconstruction is
*kel-. Now, based on my approach to mine patterns
instead of considering single words I dare propose
KAL as origin of a plethory of words in recent
languages.

Just that much for this evening. Nice company
and a fine meal awaiting me ...

Regards

Franz Gnaedinger

[Heidi Graw]

Post by Franz Gnaedinger

Post by Heidi Graw
Hi Franz! I was hoping you would add to this thread. ;-)

Thanks. Before I read your suggested text, I d'like to
inform you about a find of mine: no meme for KEL and
permutations, but for KAL and permutations, regarding
KAL --- cavity, cave, especially the Underworld traversed
by sun horse and moon bull, also painted caves such
as Lascaux; ancient Greek koilon for cavity (...), German
Hoehle for cave, English hill (many caves are inside hills),
Latin calor for warmth, heat (consider the warmth inside
a deep cave), ancient Greek kallos for beautiful (caves
are beautiful, and especially the painted ones)
LAK --- water in the depth of the Underworld; ancient
Greek lakkos for hole, ditch, pond, Latin lacus English
lake and loch, German Loch for hole
KLA --- sound the sun horse and moon bull make when
traversing the Underworld; ancient Greek klaggae for
sound, singing, noise (...), German Klang for sound,
Klappern for the sound hoofs make
ALK --- protection of the sun horse and the moon bull
in the Underworld, provided by the guiding snake;
ancient Greek alkos for protection
AKL --- brightness and splendor of the Underworld
when traversed by sun or moon; ancient Greek aglaia
for shine, splendour, beauty, brightness
LKA --- light of the midsummer sunhorse and of the
full moon; ancient Greek lyka-genaes for born out of
light (byname of Apollon), lyka-bas for year
Richard Fester proposed KALL for cave, woman,
source of life, and many more correlated meanings,
providing a long and impressive list of words in many
languages. The Indo-European reconstruction is
*kel-. Now, based on my approach to mine patterns
instead of considering single words I dare propose
KAL as origin of a plethory of words in recent
languages.

I googled for Richard Fester and came across the following:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Fester_(Linguist)

"Die Grundbedeutung des Urwortes "kall" { mit Zunge und Gaumen erzeugter
Konsonant (g,k) in Verbindung mit einem Vokal und einem Konsonanten wie l,
r, m oder n } bezeichnet einen "umschlossenen Hohlraum" so dass sich Wörter
wie "Halle", "Zelle" und "Quelle" oder deren Umkehrungen "Loch" und "Lache"
bildeten. Mit den Abkömmlingen des Urwortes "kall" wird eine Art Gefäß
umschrieben, aus dem etwas entspringen kann. Dass sehr viele weitere
Ableitungen ( "Gyn", "Girl", "Queen") die Bedeutung "Frau" haben, wird damit
erklärt, dass die Frau das "Gefäß des Lebens" ist. Die große Häufigkeit von
Wörtern mit diesem Stamm (gegenüber den anderen Urwörtern) ließ für Fester
nur einen Schluss zu. Er deutete diese als Beweis für ein Urmatriarchat,
eine These, die in dem Buch "Weib und Macht" gemeinsam mit anderen Autoren
diskutiert wurde.

****

What sort of reputation does Fester's work enjoy? I noticed he died in
1910. Do modern linguists respect his work?

What is important for my purposes are the Poetic Edda's and Snorri's Edda
accounts of the World Tree Yggdrasil and it's three roots under which 3
realms exist. Each root drawing water from a well, spring, and ocean. The
Gods each have their own Halls. There's also an abyss. So, Halle, Quelle
and Loch are very relevant words. The norn Urd plays a significant role in
people's lives, "Weib und Macht." ..."Woman and Power." ;-)

Urd's well is an important water source for one of the roots of Yggdrasil,
plus a daily gathering place for the Gods. Rydbergs argues a strong case
that Hel is Urd, and Hel is a place...balmy and beautiful, and Loki's
daughter is indeed some monstrous thing (not Hel) that the Gods tossed into
the abyss in Nifelhel (not balmy Hel).

This belief that Loki's daughter is Hel is something that Rydberg claims is
erroneous. He writes, "Colossal as this absurdity is, it has been believed
for centuries."

In any case, for years now I've read all sorts of things about Hel that
simply just didn't sit right. Something was wrong, but I couldn't quite
figure out what it was. However, just recently I came across Rydberg's
writings about Hel. All sorts of things began to fall into place and I
can't help but agree with his assessment. But, you can now appreciate why
this author and expert in Germanic Lore is despised by a great many. His
arguement threatens the very foundation upon which these people have built
their beliefs and which they've treasured for centuries!

Ah well...as it relates to me, Rydberg made sense. He cleared up a few
things for me. And he pretty much supports a lot of what I had gleaned for
myself but couldn't quite figure out as to why! ;-)

Heidi

[izzy]

Consider the (probably borrowed into) Hebrew noun heh-lamed-heh
(feminine gender) with the meanings:
halo, aura, corona, crown, gloria, nimbus; glory, radiance

ciao,
izzy

[Heidi Graw]

Post by izzy
Consider the (probably borrowed into) Hebrew noun heh-lamed-heh

As in heh-lamed-heh...hehlame-heh...hehlame...hehla...hella..Hella!
Hmmm...an interesting thought, Izzy! ;-)

Post by izzy
halo, aura, corona, crown, gloria, nimbus; glory, radiance

Yes, Izzy, any Hellas I ever knew did actually look quite radiant. However,
don't look into their closets! Sheez! My mother had a friend named Hella.
She looked dropped dead gorgeous...blonde hair, blue eyes, carefully groomed
and fashionably dressed. Even her home was spic and span...but that
closet...my, oh, my...that closet! One never knew what could be crawling
around in there! LOL... That was the only fault my mother could find with
this woman! ;-)

Take care,
Heidi

[Alan]

Post by Heidi Graw

"izzy" wrote Consider the (probably borrowed into) Hebrew noun
heh-lamed-heh

As in heh-lamed-heh...hehlame-heh...hehlame...hehla...hella..Hella!
Hmmm...an interesting thought, Izzy! ;-)

(and I bet izzy thought he was avoiding confusion by spelling it out)

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Alan

Post by Heidi Graw

"izzy" wrote Consider the (probably borrowed into) Hebrew noun
heh-lamed-heh

As in heh-lamed-heh...hehlame-heh...hehlame...hehla...hella..Hella!
Hmmm...an interesting thought, Izzy! ;-)

(and I bet izzy thought he was avoiding confusion by spelling it out)

Just let the three of them talk among themselves ...

[Paul J Kriha]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Alan

Post by Heidi Graw

"izzy" wrote Consider the (probably borrowed into) Hebrew noun
heh-lamed-heh

As in heh-lamed-heh...hehlame-heh...hehlame...hehla...hella..Hella!
Hmmm...an interesting thought, Izzy! ;-)

(and I bet izzy thought he was avoiding confusion by spelling it out)

Just let the three of them talk among themselves ...

Is there a technical term for communication (language
or semionic kind) where no usefull information is received
(made use of) by the recipient? :-)
pjk

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Paul J Kriha

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Alan

Post by Heidi Graw

"izzy" wrote Consider the (probably borrowed into) Hebrew noun
heh-lamed-heh

As in heh-lamed-heh...hehlame-heh...hehlame...hehla...hella..Hella!
Hmmm...an interesting thought, Izzy! ;-)

(and I bet izzy thought he was avoiding confusion by spelling it out)

Just let the three of them talk among themselves ...

Is there a technical term for communication (language
or semionic kind) where no usefull information is received
(made use of) by the recipient? :-)
pjk

"phatic communication"

It's the thesis of one of the language-origins theorists (is it Robin
Dunbar?) that it's where language originated -- "Grooming, Gossip, and
Language" I think is the title.

It does seem that more talking is about human interaction than about
exchanging information.

[Paul J Kriha]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Paul J Kriha

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Alan

Post by Heidi Graw

"izzy" wrote Consider the (probably borrowed into) Hebrew noun
heh-lamed-heh

As in heh-lamed-heh...hehlame-heh...hehlame...hehla...hella..Hella!
Hmmm...an interesting thought, Izzy! ;-)

(and I bet izzy thought he was avoiding confusion by spelling it out)

Just let the three of them talk among themselves ...

Is there a technical term for communication (language
or semionic kind) where no usefull information is received
(made use of) by the recipient? :-)
pjk

"phatic communication"

Thanks.

Post by Peter T. Daniels
It's the thesis of one of the language-origins theorists (is it Robin
Dunbar?) that it's where language originated -- "Grooming, Gossip, and
Language" I think is the title.

I googled, I saw, I found.
It seems you've got both the title and the name of the author
absolutely spot on.

Post by Peter T. Daniels
It does seem that more talking is about human interaction than about
exchanging information.

pjk

"Rhubbarb, rhubbarb, rhubbarb, blahblahblah" I repeat phatically. :-)

[John Flynn]

Paul J Kriha wrote:

[snip]

Post by Paul J Kriha

Post by Peter T. Daniels
It's the thesis of one of the language-origins theorists (is it
Robin Dunbar?) that it's where language originated -- "Grooming,
Gossip, and Language" I think is the title.

I googled, I saw, I found.
It seems you've got both the title and the name of the author
absolutely spot on.

Post by Peter T. Daniels
It does seem that more talking is about human interaction than about
exchanging information.

I would say it's being generous to Dunbar to call his ideas "language
origins". He doesn't really deal with the "How?" of language origins
but more like the "Why was it adaptive?" and "Why do we have it?"
reasons. (Probably because he's mainly an anthropologist who hasn't
had a linguistics background.)

His "gossip = social grooming" hypothesis could be applied to any form
of communication; there is nothing in the idea that specifies that the
language used should be the way that the fully-syntactic languages we
know and love are. In essence, as long as the system can replace the
'grooming' of non-human primates and deal with the increases in social
group size, then it'll fit his scenario.
If you read his 1996 book-length treatment of his hypothesis, there is
a stack of social stuff and studies on social-cognitive aspects of primates
to support the adaptiveness of human language but it barely even touches
on how this useful adaptation developed (animal calls? uniquely human?
he doesn't really say too much there).

Being more of an anthropologist than a linguist, he's also done a lot of
other, related, things on social cohesion and primate sociality, but none
of which is really what you would want to call 'linguistic' in nature.

Off the top of my head, I also recall that he's edited several volumes on
cultural origins and primate culture, and done several studies with Dan
Nettle showing how language is the ideal "social identity" marker, giving
yet another adaptive benefit for the existence of language but never
attempting to explain how it came to be in first place. He's also written
a pop-science book about human origins, _The Human Story_, which is fairly
entertaining and an easy bedtime read.

[izzy]

Post by Alan
(and I bet izzy thought he was avoiding confusion by spelling it out)

Yes, he did. But he was wrong.

/s/ izzy (don't ask which one)

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Post by Heidi Graw

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
KAL --- cavity, cave, especially the Underworld traversed
by sun horse and moon bull, also painted caves such
as Lascaux; ancient Greek koilon for cavity (...), German
Hoehle for cave, English hill (many caves are inside hills),
Latin calor for warmth, heat (consider the warmth inside
a deep cave), ancient Greek kallos for beautiful (caves
are beautiful, and especially the painted ones)
LAK --- water in the depth of the Underworld; ancient
Greek lakkos for hole, ditch, pond, Latin lacus English
lake and loch, German Loch for hole
KLA --- sound the sun horse and moon bull make when
traversing the Underworld; ancient Greek klaggae for
sound, singing, noise (...), German Klang for sound,
Klappern for the sound hoofs make
ALK --- protection of the sun horse and the moon bull
in the Underworld, provided by the guiding snake;
ancient Greek alkos for protection
AKL --- brightness and splendor of the Underworld
when traversed by sun or moon; ancient Greek aglaia
for shine, splendour, beauty, brightness
LKA --- light of the midsummer sunhorse and of the
full moon; ancient Greek lyka-genaes for born out of
light (byname of Apollon), lyka-bas for year

KAL also means the womb of the Goddess (the Egyptian
goddess Nut swallowed the evening sun and gave birth
to the morning sun - the sun passed through her body).
As womb of the Goddess, KAL also is the source of life
and of regeneration. Also the source of rivers - German
Quelle and Celtic kald for spring, well. Richard Fester
mentions the village name of Kallbrunn as a double form
of his word Kall: well-fountain. Water was always a symbol
of life, hence we have here the meaning of life again. Also
German Huelle for cover and verhuellen for to conceal come
from KAL, since the Underworld and womb of the Goddess
are hidden, concealed. KLA also means wide and spacious
- a spacious and thus sounding, resounding hall.

Post by Heidi Graw
What sort of reputation does Fester's work enjoy?

Prof. Dr. Richard Fester is considered a kook, at least
in sci.lang. You know how it goes. Professor A considers
professor B a kook, professor B thinks professor C a kook,
professor C calls professor B a kook and supports professor
A ... (from: ABC of Kookology, a book I shall write in my next
leife ;-) Richard Fester was a pioneer. Pioneers make
mistakes, but they open new alleys. Christopher Columbus
reached the continents we call the Americas but he believed
to have found a seaway to India, which is why the native
Americans are still called Indians. Was Columbus a kook?
Certainly not, we appreciate his achievement and don't
care about his mistakes. Also Richard Fester made
mistakes, he believed that the magnetic north pole was
more to the south until the end of the Magdalenium,
and an ice bridge linked Finnland with Alaska. Certainly
wrong, and he combines too many words, but he made
a worthwhile begin, and in the case of Kall he got it right,
mostly. He also mentions Calypso, ancient Greek and
German Kalypso. Here is a quote from Homer, Odyssey,
translated by E.V.Rieu, book five:

(Hermes) came to the great cavern wheren the Nymph
of the lovely locks was living. / He found her at home.
A large fire was blazing on the hearth and the scent from
burning logs of juniper and cedar was wafted far across
the island. Inside, Calypso was singing with her beautiful
voice as she went to and fro at her loom, weaving with
golden shuttle. The cave was sheltered by a copse of
alders and fragrant cypresses, which was the roosting-
place of wide-winged birds, horned owls and falcons
and cormorants with long tongues, birds of the coast,
whose business takes them down to the sea. Trailing
round the mouth of the cavern was a thriving garden vine,
with great bunches of grapes; from four separate but
neighbouring springs four crystal rivulets were channeled
to run this way and that; and in soft meadows on either
side iris and wild celery flourished. It was indeed a spot
where even an immortal visitor must pause to gaze in
wonder and delight.

Here you encounter the same positive picture of KAL,
personified by Kalypso, as in my reconstruction of the
six Magdalenian words. Whereas German Hoelle
English hell are entirely negative. How come? I guess
the answer is again indicated by language. Ancient
Greek chalkos (pronounced khalkos) means ore.
Athens owed its riches to the silver mines. Working
in those mines was the living hell for the slaves. The
Celts were mining metals including gold. The nobles
had a good life, while the lower classes worked hard
in the mines. Julius Caesar conquered Gallia for gold.
Richard Fester mentions Gallia and Celtic as derivates
of his Urwort Kall. I can claim them as derivates of my
Magdalenian reconstruction KAL. Also German Gold
for gold and Geld for money may have com from KAL.
The Paleolithic caves were magnificient, while the
mines turned the understanding of the Underworld
around, from positive into negative.

Post by Heidi Graw
Ah well...as it relates to me, Rydberg made sense.

Rydberg seems okay to me, although I know little
about Norse and Germanic mythology (got me
a classical education, Latin, Greek, Latin, Latin.
Latin and Latin ;-)

Regards Franz Gnaedinger

[Heidi Graw]

(snip)

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Rydberg seems okay to me, although I know little
about Norse and Germanic mythology (got me
a classical education, Latin, Greek, Latin, Latin.
Latin and Latin ;-)

Why, you intellectual snob, you! LOL... ;-)

Franzelchen strutting his stuff, nose in the air, thumbs in his pockets, "I
gots me a classle edumacash'n." ;-)

Just teasing you a little... ;-)

I know what you mean, though, and I can understand the allure. The
Mediterranean Lore is considerably more sophisticated in style. Norse and
Germanic, in comparison, appear quite stilted and awkward. However, don't
allow this more primitive style to colour what is actually being said. I've
found all sorts of remarkable and enlightened thinking in those stories.
It's also deeply complex and intricate. It's too bad this lore is used
more for comic book entertainments than for serious intellectual study.
It's not easy getting rid of that "barbarian" reputation. <sigh>

Remember when the missionaries first arrived to the New World? The Natives
were thought quite primitive and their stories too fanciful and silly for
serious consideration? Yet, when one actually reads the remnants of what has
been left allowed to the Natives, one can find such wonderful and awesome
truths in them. These stories demonstrate a lively intelligence and an
awful lot of wisdom. Same can be found in Norse/Germanic Lore. I consider
these *my* treasures! They're awsome!

Franz, you're a smart guy. Perhaps I can persuade you to study the Eddas
in your spare time. As that Swiss Alpine person, I would think it's almost
a duty that you do so! The Lore is in your blood, Franzelchen! Remember
those memes? Don't forget those memes? ;-)

Take care and don't work too hard this upcoming week. ;-)

Heidi <....That West Coast Mountain gal sending greetings to that Alpine
boy thousands of kilometres away! ;-)

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Post by Heidi Graw
Franzelchen strutting his stuff, nose in the air, thumbs in his pockets, "I
gots me a classle edumacash'n." ;-)
Just teasing you a little... ;-)

Sorry if I sounded arrogant. I am no native speaker
of English. What I meant to say was that we got
a classical humanistic education or indoctrination:
all about Rome, plenty about Greece and the Holy
Land, little about Nordic mythology, almost nothing
about Egypt, Mesopotamia, India, China, little about
Africa, Australia, and the Americas.

Post by Heidi Graw
Franz, you're a smart guy. Perhaps I can persuade you to study the Eddas
in your spare time. As that Swiss Alpine person, I would think it's almost
a duty that you do so! The Lore is in your blood, Franzelchen! Remember
those memes? Don't forget those memes? ;-)

Why don't you give us your summary of the Edda,
Heidilein Heidemariechen Heideroeschen? Can
you tell me about the tree of life - Ygdrasil? is it
rooted in the Underworld? My method applied
to "Hel" revelead KAL as Magdalenian root of
the word for the Underworld, and it had a positive
meaning, while mining for metal must have been
the reason why hell and Hoelle are entirely negative.

As for the Swiss Alps: I love them. I would also like
Canada, where you are living, Heideroeselchen,
far away in kilometers, rather close on the map
of my soul. Do you know that many Swiss farmers
emigrate to Canada?

Regards Franz Gnaedinger (reconvalescent)

[Heidi Graw]

Post by Franz Gnaedinger

Post by Heidi Graw
Franzelchen strutting his stuff, nose in the air, thumbs in his pockets, "I
gots me a classle edumacash'n." ;-)
Just teasing you a little... ;-)

Sorry if I sounded arrogant. I am no native speaker
of English. What I meant to say was that we got
all about Rome, plenty about Greece and the Holy
Land, little about Nordic mythology, almost nothing
about Egypt, Mesopotamia, India, China, little about
Africa, Australia, and the Americas.

Looks like I did a bit better out here in BC. When I first arrived, I got a
thorough induction into Native Indian tribal cultures. Canadian and US
histories. Then I was introduced to Mesopotamia, Egypt, Greece, Rome, India,
China and Africa. The only thing I learned of Europe out here in Canada was
about WWII and the Holocaust. We skipped Australia, Russia and South
America. I also learned nothing about the Nordic countries. Thor was just
a comic book character.

Essays I remember writing about were of Czechoslovakia because I liked the
name. I also had to do an oral presentation about some mythological god and
make up a story of my own. I picked Loki because I also liked that name and
he wasn't mentioned at any time in our course materials. I can't remember
what I actually wrote about him... I probably played up his trickery and
came up with all sorts of wild and crazy things...anything to annoy people.
I got an A+ for that presentation. ;-) Oh...and in my grade 7 drawing
class, I added a fig leaf to Zeus/Poseidon. I didn't think it was
appropriate for a god to be running around naked! ;-)

Post by Franz Gnaedinger

Post by Heidi Graw
Franz, you're a smart guy. Perhaps I can persuade you to study the Eddas
in your spare time. As that Swiss Alpine person, I would think it's almost
a duty that you do so! The Lore is in your blood, Franzelchen! Remember
those memes? Don't forget those memes? ;-)

Why don't you give us your summary of the Edda,

That's a huge undertaking...and way off topic for this newsgroup. ;-)

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Heidilein Heidemariechen Heideroeschen?

Ah well...considering we're now on a nickname basis... ;-)

It's Heiderose...or as my father used to sing, "Heideröslein." My grade 4
teacher dubbed me "Heidi."

1. Sah ein Knab ein Roslein stehn, Roslein auf der Heiden; war so jung und
morgenschon, lief er schnell, es nah zu sehn, sah's mit vielen Freuden.
Roslein, Roslein, Roslein rot, Roslein auf der Heiden.

2. Knabe sprach: Ich breche dich, Roslein auf der Heiden! Roslein sprach:
Ich steche dich, das du ewig denkst an mich, und ich will's nicht leiden.
Roslein

3. Und der wilde Knabe brach's Roslein auf der Heiden, Roslein wehrte sich
und stach, half ihm doch kein Weh aud Ach, musst es eben leiden Roslein. . .
.

I like Heideröslein's attitude! My daddy named me well! LOL... ;-)

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Can
you tell me about the tree of life - Ygdrasil? is it
rooted in the Underworld? My method applied
to "Hel" revelead KAL as Magdalenian root of
the word for the Underworld, and it had a positive
meaning, while mining for metal must have been
the reason why hell and Hoelle are entirely negative.

My personal UPG (unsubstantiated personal gnosis)

I see Yggdrasil as a kind of cosmic hydroponic tree...the canopy of this
tree are the stars in the heavens. The three roots connect to 3 different
solar systems...one that contains planet Earth (Midgard) and the other two
somewhere else out there in space (Neiflheim and Asgard). So, while these
planets may be *under* the tree, when it comes to space, it's not like
being underground per se. Bifrost (the Rainbow) I liken to the Milky
Way...the road to travel to get to Asgard.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
As for the Swiss Alps: I love them. I would also like
Canada, where you are living, Heideroeselchen,
far away in kilometers, rather close on the map
of my soul. Do you know that many Swiss farmers
emigrate to Canada?

Yes, indeed. They've found all sorts of little out of the way valleys where
they settled and built homesteads. The Swedes did the same. Lots of
Germans found their way here, too. They love the scenery and the hiking.

I have a sister who lives up in the Rocky Mountains...she's got the most
gorgeous and breath-taking view from her place. Awesome! I, on the other
hand, am tucked away in the foothills of the Coastal Mountain range.
However, just a few minutes driving and I'm up in the mountains.

I'm just glad my sister isn't married to guy named Franz. She chose a
nickname for herself..."Funzelchen." Now imagine if she were married to a
Franz...Franzelchen and Funzelchen! Someone should write a children story
about those two and their adventures! LOL... ;-)

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Regards Franz Gnaedinger (reconvalescent)

Oh..oh...did you have an injury or illness? I hope you get better real
soon!

Take care,
Heidi

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Post by Heidi Graw
That's a huge undertaking...and way off topic for this newsgroup. ;-)

Don't care about sci.lang, we are getting killrated anyway.
They don't like a lively and colorful discussion, they hate
new ideas and oblige everybody to a narrow understanding
of language. Someone recommended my compatriote
Ferdinand de Saussure to me. De Saussure wrote a path-
breaking book and is worshipped as father of linguistics
of the 20th century. But he had to wait for recognition until
he was dead. His work was neither understood nor accepted
while he lived. If there had been a forum such as sci.lang in
his time, he would have been called a kook ... Just don't
care about the narrow-minded opinions around here. Tell
your understanding of the Edda. Make me wanna read that
epic.

Post by Heidi Graw
Oh..oh...did you have an injury or illness? I hope you get better real
soon!

Yes, I was seriously ill and thought my life was over.
Do you know what counts in the end? What one did
for others.

You are a good mother, you are doing a fine job
civilizing the Usenet, and you have a heart for
stray cats that ruin your furniture. Go on that way,
Heideroeschen.

Regards Franz Gnaedinger

[Heidi Graw]

(snip)

Tell your understanding of the Edda. Make me wanna read that
epic.

O.k...I'll start with the Tooth Fairy. ;-)

From the Poetic Edda: (Carolyne Larrington translation)

Grimnir's Sayings

5. "Yewdale it is called, the place where Ull*
has made a hall for himself;
Alfheim the gods gave to Freyr
in bygone days as tooth-payment.*

Carolyne notes:
*Ull: god of the bow. Since bows were normally made of yew, it is
appropriate that the god should have his palace in Yewdale.
*tooth-payment: a gift given to a child when it loses its first tooth.

Btw. Freyr is the son of Njord and Nerthus. The gods gave Freyr a
fairyland when, as a child, he lost his first tooth. He often rides his
Golden Bristle Boar.

Here's a picture of him riding that boar: Freyr is wearing a red cap and a
green/brown cloak:

Loading Image...

Isn't he cute? ;-)

Post by Heidi Graw
Oh..oh...did you have an injury or illness? I hope you get better real
soon!

Yes, I was seriously ill and thought my life was over.

That *is* very serious. I'm glad to hear you pulled through and I wish you
a speedy recovery!

Do you know what counts in the end? What one did
for others.

Yes, how true! Back in Sept. 30, 2004, I had a heart attack. And if it
hadn't been for the speedy arrival of the ambulance and the quick actions of
those medical professionals, I would not be here today writing this post. I
actually died, but I was "shocked" back into life.

My last vision before my death was that of my husband's alarmed face. I
couldn't speak, but I thought, "Don't worry, Bill, I'm not going to die." I
kept thinking I still have way too much stuff to do. I can't leave the
family just yet! And boom! I was out like a light. My husband watched the
lines on the monitor going flat, the blips disappeared, he was pushed away
and everyone got busy scrambling around trying to resurrect me. And with
their combined efforts and my sheer will to refuse to die, well... Here I
am telling you about the Tooth Fairy!!!! LOL... ;-)

You are a good mother, you are doing a fine job
civilizing the Usenet, and you have a heart for
stray cats that ruin your furniture. Go on that way,
Heideroeschen.

Thanks, Franz. You're a good man, too! Ein gnaediger Herr und ein Ketzer!
Good thing the Church isn't allowed to go around killing those who don't
submit to the Papal Bull. <chuckle>

I meant to ask you: You received a Catholic Education. Are you an obedient
Catholic or are you that Heretic?

You realize, of course, you're having a conversation with a gal who would
have been condemned to Hell and burnt at the stake years ago. If you're
that devout and obedient Catholic, you're taking a huge risk associating
yourself with me. ;-)

Take care,
Heidi

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Post by Heidi Graw
5. "Yewdale it is called, the place where Ull*
has made a hall for himself;
Alfheim the gods gave to Freyr
in bygone days as tooth-payment.*

Are these your favorite lines? I need a bridge of
enthusiasm (if you know what I mean),

Post by Heidi Graw
Yes, how true! Back in Sept. 30, 2004, I had a heart attack. And if it
hadn't been for the speedy arrival of the ambulance and the quick actions of
those medical professionals, I would not be here today writing this post. I
actually died, but I was "shocked" back into life.

Glad you survived. A second life is a precious gift,
and it seems to me that you are making a good use
of it.

Post by Heidi Graw
I meant to ask you: You received a Catholic Education. Are you an obedient
Catholic or are you that Heretic?

I abandoned my religion at age fourteen, when in
a monastery school, and went for the sciences.

Post by Heidi Graw
You realize, of course, you're having a conversation with a gal who would
have been condemned to Hell and burnt at the stake years ago. If you're
that devout and obedient Catholic, you're taking a huge risk associating
yourself with me. ;-)

I was never prosecuted or molested by the Church,
while I am getting attacked, prosecuted and defamed
in scientific fora. The humanities have become as
dogmatic as any church. - Still having a problem
with writing (coordinating my fingers) I make it short.

Best regards

Franz Gnaedinger

[Heidi Graw]

Post by Franz Gnaedinger

Post by Heidi Graw
5. "Yewdale it is called, the place where Ull*
has made a hall for himself;
Alfheim the gods gave to Freyr
in bygone days as tooth-payment.*

Are these your favorite lines? I need a bridge of
enthusiasm (if you know what I mean),

No, what "grabbed" me was the following Havamal verse:

71. The lame man rides a horse,
the handless man drives herds,
the deaf man fights and succeeds.
to be blind is better than to be burnt. [as in cremated...better to
be blind than dead.]
a corpse is of no use to anyone.

When I read that, I thought, "Wow! I like this Heathen wisdom!" Do what
you can with what you have to the extent you are able. There is no shame in
having disabling conditions. One is not "evil" when one has various
afflictions. One is not "punished" for having them. It's not a sin to be
different! You're o.k...just the way you are!

It's this message of *acceptance* that I found endearing. So what if you
don't have legs! Use a wheelchair and get busy! No hands? Fine, here's an
artificial one, or use your feet! Can't see? Here's a guide dog to help
you along! Low IQ...no problem...learn what you can and use it. You can
participate! You can be made welcome! It's o.k. to be you!

It was this one verse that locked me into the Heathen faith....this was 10
years ago when I was struggling along to help my son who has special needs.
I needed to hear that. It gave me the power and the will to carry on. I
actually burst into tears when I read that. I thought to myself, "Thank
you, Odin, for sending me this message!" It was intensely personal and very
moving. And it helped enormously! ;-)

From the Christian community around me, all I got was, "Well..you must have
done something awfully sinful for God to punish you in this way!" They
offered me condemnations, pity and prayers. Well...that didn't sit none too
well with me! I thought to myself, "Just what sort of horrible people are
you?" All I could do was shudder and stay away from these types! Arrghhh!

Post by Franz Gnaedinger

Post by Heidi Graw
I meant to ask you: You received a Catholic Education. Are you an obedient
Catholic or are you that Heretic?

I abandoned my religion at age fourteen, when in
a monastery school, and went for the sciences.

(snip)

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
I was never prosecuted or molested by the Church,

I felt oppressed by the Church. When I was just 8 or 9 years old, I was
told by an Evangelical nun, "Why do you come here when you have nothing to
offer?" I was a kid, and tithes were automatically deducted from my
parents' pay-cheques twice a month! I went to Church before my parents were
even up on Sunday mornings because Mom worked the night shift! The few
times I went to Church, I didn't have any money with me. Then, this nun
chastized me...a little kid...for not bringing money with me.

And when I was really small...about 3 years old I was taught this prayer:

Lieber Gott,
Mach mich Fromm,
Das ich in den Himmel komm.

I was at the mercy of God to grant me piety. What if he didn't? Would I go
to Hell? Talk about pulling the rug from underneath a little girl's feet!
I panicked! I ended up with all sorts of nightmares worrying about a God
who may or may not grant me piety and a place in Heaven! The more I prayed
for piety, the more emotionally distraught I became! Boulders were
crushing me. I'd wake up and scream and I'd be ice cold! My circulatory
system must have stopped while I was dreaming about being crushed. These
nightmare episodes went on until that nun confronted me about not having
money with me. Combine that with Bible Study where I was introduced to
unimaginable horrors, it was simply too much for me.

So, then one night, as I laid down in bed, I felt a warm blanket being laid
over me...the blanket was blue/grey in colour. I also heard a whisper in my
eye, "You need not go there." I need not go to that Church. And from then
on my dreams changed to flight dreams. In my dreams I was a raven. I could
fly high up in the air. And when I tired and sat on a fencepost to rest,
and saw a bull in the meadow charge at me, all I had to do was lift myself
up and fly away. Odin has two ravens...Hugin and Munin...Thought and
Memory. Odin also wears a blue/grey cloak. Jesus is recorded as wearing
either a red cloak or a purple one.

When I was that child I had no knowledge of Odin or his ravens. Thinking
back, I can't help but believe Odin came to my rescue...he rescued me from
that Papal Bull, the oppression, and the nightmares. It took me another 30+
years to finally discover what occured in that flight dream of mine. I'm
not making any of this up...I'm telling you the truth about my experience.
I swear it on the Eddas!

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
while I am getting attacked, prosecuted and defamed
in scientific fora. The humanities have become as
dogmatic as any church.

Yes, and the sciences have certainly become politicised. Everyone has an
agenda to prove and/or a preconceived notion to protect. The truth is
certainly lost in this manner. Open inquiry is not permitted! One must toe
the political line. <sigh>


- Still having a problem

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
with writing (coordinating my fingers) I make it short.

Yes, take a rest, Franz. You are welcome to e-mail me if you wish to
disclose further details. What is private will remain private.

Get well real soon, Franz.

Heidi

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Post by Heidi Graw
71. The lame man rides a horse,
the handless man drives herds,
the deaf man fights and succeeds.
to be blind is better than to be burnt. [as in cremated...better to
be blind than dead.]
a corpse is of no use to anyone.

These lines are fine. You already quoted them at
the begin of this year (as I recall). Are they a solitary
gem in the epic, or is that thought further developed?

Post by Heidi Graw
When I read that, I thought, "Wow! I like this Heathen wisdom!" Do what
you can with what you have to the extent you are able. There is no shame in
having disabling conditions. One is not "evil" when one has various
afflictions. One is not "punished" for having them. It's not a sin to be
different! You're o.k...just the way you are!

Fine interpretation.

Post by Heidi Graw
It's this message of *acceptance* that I found endearing. So what if you
don't have legs! Use a wheelchair and get busy! No hands? Fine, here's an
artificial one, or use your feet! Can't see? Here's a guide dog to help
you along! Low IQ...no problem...learn what you can and use it. You can
participate! You can be made welcome! It's o.k. to be you!

Dito.

Post by Heidi Graw
It was this one verse that locked me into the Heathen faith....this was 10
years ago when I was struggling along to help my son who has special needs.
I needed to hear that. It gave me the power and the will to carry on. I
actually burst into tears when I read that. I thought to myself, "Thank
you, Odin, for sending me this message!" It was intensely personal and very
moving. And it helped enormously! ;-)
From the Christian community around me, all I got was, "Well..you must have
done something awfully sinful for God to punish you in this way!" They
offered me condemnations, pity and prayers. Well...that didn't sit none too
well with me! I thought to myself, "Just what sort of horrible people are
you?" All I could do was shudder and stay away from these types! Arrghhh!

You should have quoted from the Bible: Don't judge,
or else you will be judged.

Here you are with my understanding of dispositions for
ilnesses and of disabilities. Life needs variety, in order
to survive changes of the ecosystem, and in order to
explore and conquer new ecolocigal niches and new
possibilities. The former is clear. Let me explain the
latter by means of an example.

European birds of passage fly to Africa in autumn,
and return in spring. A very few birds, owing to a rare
genetic variant, head northward in autum - and die in
the cold. Change of scenery. London recovered after
the second World War. People could afford buying
coal. The city warmed up. The Londoners could
also afford feeding birds. You guess what happened.
Some of the crazy birds that fly northward in autum
reached London, survived in the relatively warm city,
and were fed by humans. Come spring, they returned
to the continent, arriving well fed and strong, while
their normal colleagues, returning from Africa, used
plenty of energy on the long flight, and so arrived slim
and weak. The consequence was that the hipsters
from London had a great mating success, spread
their genetic variant to plenty offspring, and so it
happens that ever more birds of passage spend
winter in a northern city. They conquered a niche
that was created by humans. A disadvantage can
turn into an advantage ...

The unlucky ones pay the price for the lucky ones,
The lucky ones should be grateful and not condemn
the unlucky ones.

So much for today. I shall reply to the rest of your
message tomorrow-

Regards Franz Gnaedinger

[Heidi Graw]

Post by Franz Gnaedinger

Post by Heidi Graw
71. The lame man rides a horse,
the handless man drives herds,
the deaf man fights and succeeds.
to be blind is better than to be burnt. [as in cremated...better to
be blind than dead.]
a corpse is of no use to anyone.

These lines are fine. You already quoted them at
the begin of this year (as I recall). Are they a solitary
gem in the epic, or is that thought further developed?

The above verse can be found in the Havamal (Sayings of the High One). This
poem is part of a collection of poems assembled in "The Poetic Edda." The
one I have was translated by Carolyne Larrington, but other translations
exist. I'm told that the Larrington translation is actually not that good.
It contains some errors. However, I find Carolyne's translation more
readable. I correct errors as I come across them and make all sorts of
scribble marks in the margins. ;-)

There is also Snorri Sturluson's "Edda" or "Prose Edda." Snorri makes
references to the poems contained in the Poetic Edda and presents the
stories prose style, while also drawing from other sources, plus simply
making up stuff of his own. These stories are written into a section called
"Gylfaginning." He also includes the "Skaldskaparmal" (The Language of
Poetry), plus also the "Hattatal" (List of Verse-Forms).

The Poetic Edda and the Prose Edda are considered among Heathen circles to
be the primary sources. However, there are also secondary sources that
provided extra "padding." Family Sagas written by various ancient
historians and scholar add to the package.

The best resource site is Northvegr, which offers free on-line access to all
sorts of Heathen literature.

http://www.northvegr.org/lore/main.php

You can spend *years* going over all these things and still not know
everything there is to know.

(snip)

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Here you are with my understanding of dispositions for
ilnesses and of disabilities. Life needs variety, in order
to survive changes of the ecosystem, and in order to
explore and conquer new ecolocigal niches and new
possibilities. The former is clear. Let me explain the
latter by means of an example.
European birds of passage fly to Africa in autumn,
and return in spring. A very few birds, owing to a rare
genetic variant, head northward in autum - and die in
the cold. Change of scenery. London recovered after
the second World War. People could afford buying
coal. The city warmed up. The Londoners could
also afford feeding birds. You guess what happened.
Some of the crazy birds that fly northward in autum
reached London, survived in the relatively warm city,
and were fed by humans. Come spring, they returned
to the continent, arriving well fed and strong, while
their normal colleagues, returning from Africa, used
plenty of energy on the long flight, and so arrived slim
and weak. The consequence was that the hipsters
from London had a great mating success, spread
their genetic variant to plenty offspring, and so it
happens that ever more birds of passage spend
winter in a northern city. They conquered a niche
that was created by humans. A disadvantage can
turn into an advantage ...
The unlucky ones pay the price for the lucky ones,
The lucky ones should be grateful and not condemn
the unlucky ones.

Excellent example.

When you mentioned London and a bird, I'm thinking of a little swallow, who
overstayed well into Winter, I was reminded of the story of "The Happy
Prince" by Oscar Wilde. I can't read that story without blubbering all over
the place. Waaahhhh... ;-)

http://etext.virginia.edu/etcbin/toccer-new2?id=WilHapp.sgm&images=images/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed&tag=public&part=1&division=div1

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
So much for today. I shall reply to the rest of your
message tomorrow-

Looking forward to it. ;-)

Take care,
Heidi

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Post by Heidi Graw
I was at the mercy of God to grant me piety. What if he didn't? Would I go
to Hell? Talk about pulling the rug from underneath a little girl's feet!
I panicked! I ended up with all sorts of nightmares worrying about a God
who may or may not grant me piety and a place in Heaven! The more I prayed
for piety, the more emotionally distraught I became! Boulders were
crushing me. I'd wake up and scream and I'd be ice cold! My circulatory
system must have stopped while I was dreaming about being crushed. These
nightmare episodes went on until that nun confronted me about not having
money with me. Combine that with Bible Study where I was introduced to
unimaginable horrors, it was simply too much for me.

Poor Heidi. I was better prepared to cope with religion.
My mother was fond of my intellectual abilities and
encouraged my free reasoning. In monastery school
I asked a lot of questions. Our teacher told us that only
baptized people go to heaven. I asked: What about all
the people who lived before Christ? they were not baptized,
are they now in hell? As I insisted on my question my teacher
took me aside in the pause and told me that everbody gets
a chance at the end of their life: When people die they appear
before the heavenly throne, see God, Christ and the Holy Spirit
in their glory, and are asked whether they believe. I replied:
How can one possibly deny the existence of God, Christ and
the Holy Spirit when one sees them in all their glory? The good
father smiled, acknowledging my point and letting me know
that he doesn't really believe in hell - but what can he do?
he is obliged to teach us the official doctrine. He didn't say
so in words, but I read it in his smile.

I go on asking questions, and quoting from Holy Scriptures.

God gave me a fine intuition and a considerable intelligence.
Why shouldn't I make use of these precious gifts?

We are not allowed to make a picture of God. Calling God
a man is making a mental picture of God. Same for Allah.
Allah got 99 names, but nobody nows the true name.
Allah is only a provisional name. Saying Allah Allah Allah
doesn't make it the right name.

And then there is the old question why a good and almighty
God created a world full of pain.

I abandoned my religion at age fourteen, in 1953. In the
same year I asked a question: What is language? Nobody
could answer it, and our schoolbooks told nonesense. So
I set my mind to answer that question myself, and found this
answer in 1974/75:

Language is the means of getting help, support and
understanding from those we depend upon in one way
or another --- and every means of getting help, support
and understanding may be called language, on whatever
level of life it occurs.

Just before I got ill I formulated a provisional definition
of life, and expanded it when I recovered:

Life is a natural phenomenon, an organization of
matter far from the thermodynamical equilibrium.
Not all of matter can be living matter, so life occurs
in single entities, in single beings that are connected
via the exchange of matter, energy and information,
this exchange being initiated and acompanied by
language in the above sense - in some cases
language and exchange may even be the same,
as postulated by Claude Lévi Strauss.

This definition frees me from the theodicy. I don't
have to explain how evil and pain came into the
world. Life is just evovling, and for the short time
we are here we may engage ourselves for a better
world.

Two weeks ago I thougt my life was over; at the
same time I made exercices, using my strong will
and high motivation to survive and get well again.
I survived, but I tasted from the black soup, so to
say. I was ready to go, and I found out what counts
in the end: what one did for others. As if life were
saying: Thanks for your contributions. The ethos of
the ten Catholic commandements is quite right,
I found out in my dark hour, only that I would make
it shorter:

Contribute to life,
in the way you can,
as well as you can

I hope that you, as a Heathen, as Heathen Rose,
can agree on that. I will read your beloved Edda
and look out for what the epic says on these
questions.

Regards, and thanks for the inspiring discussion

Franz Gnaedinger

[Heidi Graw]

(snip)

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Poor Heidi.

I figure there is a reason for everything. So, I think my early experiences
were meant to be so that I could be who I am today. ;-)

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
I was better prepared to cope with religion.
My mother was fond of my intellectual abilities and
encouraged my free reasoning.

Ah well...I was only three years old when I learned that prayer that gave me
those nightmares. My mother didn't think 3 year olds were capable of
reasoning. I sure as heck reasoned at that age! I also discovered when my
boys were just learning to speak they had reasoning skills.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
In monastery school
I asked a lot of questions.

My Evangelical school didn't allow questions from students. I underwent a
barrage of dictation, dictation and more dictation. Reciting and
reciting...rote learning. And if the shape of the handwriting wasn't
perfect, we had to do it over, over and over and over again. This was from
kindergarten to grade 4. And when it came to Bible Study, the wrath of God
loomed large and loud in that classroom! Scary stuff! I honestly believed
Jehovah was a demon! To Moses he appeared inside a burning
bush...surrounded by flames and the fire did not comsume him! He was mean,
vengeful and so jealous! This was not the type of god I found in anyway
endearing! I just thought he was a murderous thug...a someone to stay away
from! So, needless to say, when in the scripture Jesus claimed only through
him could one come to the Father, I thought to myself, "Are you kidding?
Who in their right mind would want to?"

In any case, when it came to school work, I wasn't allowed to think and ask
questions until I came to Canada. Despite having to learn another language,
I finally clued in when I was in grade 5. I ended up so smart that I did
grade 5 and 6 work in one year so I could skip into grade 7. Then the
learning bug bit me! I just had to read everything! I ended up so fired
up wanting to learn something about everything...well...you should see my
at-home library...it's huge! ;-)

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
The good
father smiled, acknowledging my point and letting me know
that he doesn't really believe in hell - but what can he do?
he is obliged to teach us the official doctrine. He didn't say
so in words, but I read it in his smile.

Well, there you have...clergy toeing the doctrinal line while not believing
it themselves. If the clergy don't really believe, why should I?

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
I abandoned my religion at age fourteen, in 1953. In the
same year I asked a question: What is language? Nobody
could answer it, and our schoolbooks told nonesense. So
I set my mind to answer that question myself, and found this
Language is the means of getting help, support and
understanding from those we depend upon in one way
or another --- and every means of getting help, support
and understanding may be called language, on whatever
level of life it occurs.

I think you came up with a very good definition.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Just before I got ill I formulated a provisional definition

Life is a natural phenomenon, an organization of
matter far from the thermodynamical equilibrium.
Not all of matter can be living matter, so life occurs
in single entities, in single beings that are connected
via the exchange of matter, energy and information,
this exchange being initiated and acompanied by
language in the above sense - in some cases
language and exchange may even be the same,
as postulated by Claude Lévi Strauss.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
This definition frees me from the theodicy. I don't
have to explain how evil and pain came into the
world. Life is just evovling, and for the short time
we are here we may engage ourselves for a better
world.

Yes, I agree...and it's so true, too.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
I found out in my dark hour, only that I would make

Contribute to life,
in the way you can,
as well as you can

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
I hope that you, as a Heathen, as Heathen Rose,
can agree on that.

Absolutely...According to the Havamal, only a corpse is of no use to anyone.
However, look at how corpses are useful *today*...organ transplants,
insurance money, wrongful death suits! Someone managed to even make
corpses useful! The media makes lots of money off corpses when they report
about them. So, a corpse has financial value...and when one has financial
value one is useful. A corpse is even taxed! Ah well...

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
I will read your beloved Edda
and look out for what the epic says on these
questions.

You might like this one:

Havamal vs. 47.

I was young once, I travelled alone,
then I found myself going astray;
rich I thought myself when I met someone else,
for man is the joy of man.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Regards, and thanks for the inspiring discussion

You're welcome. ;-)

Heidi

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Post by Heidi Graw
My Evangelical school didn't allow questions from students. I underwent a
barrage of dictation, dictation and more dictation. Reciting and
reciting...rote learning. And if the shape of the handwriting wasn't
perfect, we had to do it over, over and over and over again. This was from
kindergarten to grade 4. And when it came to Bible Study, the wrath of God
loomed large and loud in that classroom! Scary stuff! I honestly believed
Jehovah was a demon! To Moses he appeared inside a burning
bush...surrounded by flames and the fire did not comsume him! He was mean,
vengeful and so jealous! This was not the type of god I found in anyway
endearing! I just thought he was a murderous thug...a someone to stay away
from! So, needless to say, when in the scripture Jesus claimed only through
him could one come to the Father, I thought to myself, "Are you kidding?
Who in their right mind would want to?"
In any case, when it came to school work, I wasn't allowed to think and ask
questions until I came to Canada. Despite having to learn another language,
I finally clued in when I was in grade 5. I ended up so smart that I did
grade 5 and 6 work in one year so I could skip into grade 7. Then the
learning bug bit me! I just had to read everything! I ended up so fired
up wanting to learn something about everything...well...you should see my
at-home library...it's huge! ;-)

You have not been broken, Heidenroeslein.
The bad experience made you a strong woman.
Be sure of my admiration.

Post by Heidi Graw
I think you came up with a very good definition.

They hate my definition of language in sci.lang.
There is a bad spirit in this group, a kookooks
clan, a killrating mob - they rate me down
systematically in the Google version of sci.lang,

Post by Heidi Graw
Yes, I agree...and it's so true, too.

Also you are getting killrated for aplauding me.
Luckily enough, we are strong personalities,
we got a voice, and plenty to say.

Post by Heidi Graw
Havamal vs. 47.
I was young once, I travelled alone,
then I found myself going astray;
rich I thought myself when I met someone else,
for man is the joy of man.

Beautiful. I prayed for the blessing that I can
finish my scientific work (provisionally, I have
ideas for twenty more years). Now I got my
second life, and I use it for updating my
website and writing a report of what I did
in 32 years (my discoveries in several fields).
When I have finished that, I shall read the Eddas,
perhaps, if all goes well, beginning on your
birthday. Yes, I solved the riddle of your numbers.

Regards Franz Gnaedinger

[Heidi Graw]

(snip)

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
They hate my definition of language in sci.lang.
There is a bad spirit in this group, a kookooks
clan, a killrating mob - they rate me down
systematically in the Google version of sci.lang,

The kookooks klan? LOL....perfect name for them! ;-)
I have to remember that one. I'm sure I can use it for some other
newsgroups. LOL...

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Also you are getting killrated for aplauding me.
Luckily enough, we are strong personalities,
we got a voice, and plenty to say.

I don't pay attention to those killratings. I normally don't use Google
unless my own newsserver crashes...which is very rarely.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger

Post by Heidi Graw
Havamal vs. 47.
I was young once, I travelled alone,
then I found myself going astray;
rich I thought myself when I met someone else,
for man is the joy of man.

Beautiful. I prayed for the blessing that I can
finish my scientific work (provisionally, I have
ideas for twenty more years). Now I got my
second life, and I use it for updating my
website and writing a report of what I did
in 32 years (my discoveries in several fields).
When I have finished that, I shall read the Eddas,
perhaps, if all goes well, beginning on your
birthday. Yes, I solved the riddle of your numbers.

<chuckle> I would feel very honoured if you were to begin reading the Eddas
on my birthday. If and when you do that be sure the remember there is
irreverent humour to be found in them. For example: another favorite of
mine:

Havamal 134.

I advise you, Loddfafnir, to take this advice,
it will be useful if you learn it,
do you good, if you have it;
at a grey-haired sage you should never laugh!
Often what the old say is good;
often from a wrinkled bag come judicious words,
from those who hang around with the hides
and skulk among the skins
and hover among the cheese-bags.

You don't find this kind of language in the Bible. The Bible also doesn't
have anything funny in it. The Eddas are not written using flowery
language, but the wisdoms are incredible. They're wonderful and I just love
'em. ;-)
They truly reflect something of the Germanic soul.

The Skaldsparmal gives us some information about the language of poetry.
Skalds used a lot of kennings and this is a good guide to keep on hand. It
takes a while to figure out what things mean. The poetry is actually very
complex and can be quite confusing. They're excellent mind teasers and
often quite humorous. For example, one of my favorite kennings.

A kenning for hair: skull strings!

"Oh my! You have such lovely golden skull-strings!" This is just the sort
of expression to use when wooing one's beloved. ;-)

Take care,
Heidi

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Regards Franz Gnaedinger

[Heidi Graw]

(snip)

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Also you are getting killrated for aplauding me.
Luckily enough, we are strong personalities,
we got a voice, and plenty to say.

Here's something that our critics may wish to read. I scooped it from
another newsgroup:

""It is not the critic that counts: not the man who points out how the
strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better.
The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face
is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs
and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without
error or shortcoming, but know the great enthusiasms, the great
devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best,
knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the
worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his
place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither
victory nor defeat." -

- Teddy Roosevelt, Speech at the Sorbonne, Paris, 1910

Heidi

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Post by Heidi Graw
Here's something that our critics may wish to read. I scooped it from
""It is not the critic that counts: not the man who points out how the
strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better.
The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face
is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs
and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without
error or shortcoming, but know the great enthusiasms, the great
devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best,
knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the
worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his
place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither
victory nor defeat." -
- Teddy Roosevelt, Speech at the Sorbonne, Paris, 1910

Wow, a great quote, thank you very much.
And I shall begin reading the poetic Edda
on October 10, Heidi Graw day.

Promised

Franz Gnaedinger

[Heidi Graw]

Post by Franz Gnaedinger

Post by Heidi Graw
Here's something that our critics may wish to read. I scooped it from
""It is not the critic that counts: not the man who points out how the
strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better.
The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face
is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs
and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without
error or shortcoming, but know the great enthusiasms, the great
devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best,
knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the
worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his
place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither
victory nor defeat." -
- Teddy Roosevelt, Speech at the Sorbonne, Paris, 1910

Wow, a great quote, thank you very much.
And I shall begin reading the poetic Edda
on October 10, Heidi Graw day.
Promised
Franz Gnaedinger

LOL...Heidi Graw Day! ROTFLMAO! You're much too kind, Franz. The above
quote was posted into soc.religion.asatru...a recently created *moderated*
newsgroup. The guy, William Reaves, who posted it is a usenet friend of
mine...an Asatruar of high calibre and personal integrity, but considered
another odd-man out. He's an Asatru Heretic, just like I am! ;-) The two
of us draw considerable fire...and that is fine by us. But, we're not
backing down.

In that newsgroup, I'm hosting a Rydberg Reading Project, much to the
chagrin of other Asatruar. However, William and I are persevering. All the
Rydberg chapter readings and their commentaries are being archived in
Google. We're reading beginning to end. They will be easy to find if ever
you feel you want to be part of that Reading Project or just want to lurk to
help you understand the Eddas a bit better.

I've also posted information about runes written by an Asatruar, an Edred
Thorsson, who enjoys relative popularity and who is judged by enough to be
considered an authority. I'm not actually into rune forecasting or magic.
I don't like dabbling in stuff like that. What if I end up raising Cain by
mistake? I could land in a whole heap of trouble...and I do a well enough
job on my own. I don't need magic to send me even deeper into it. ;-)

I just posted something about the rune named ehwaz. You might find it
interesting.

****
Edred Thorsson: "Furthark-A Handbook of Rune Magic."

GMC ehwaz: horse, or ehwo: the two horses
GO aíhws: stallion
OE he: war horse
ON íor: horse (used only in clutic contexts, and not found in the Younger
Furhark)

Phonetic value: e

Esoteric interpretation of name: the twin gods or heroes in equine aspect.

Ideographic interpretation: two upright poles bound together to symbolize
the divine twins; also the sign of two horses facing one another.

Notes:
Ehwo represents the power of the twin gods. This power construct is a
reflection of a dual form of Germanic kingship.
The ehwaz is a spiritual quality closely connected to mankind.
The E-rune facilitates the journey between the worlds of Yggdrasill--the
vitki may literally ride its power through the realms of reality.
Ehwaz is the rune of Sleipnir, Odhinn's eight-legged steed.
The horse also is connected with fertility magic, and thus to Freyr, the god
of fertility, peace, and sensuality.
This is a rune of trust and loyalty.
Ehwaz is the combination of two sympathetic, yet dually arrayed forces or
entities that work harmoniously together toward one goal.
The E-rune is the symbol of the ideal man-woman relationship and thus is the
mystery of lawful marriage.

Key words:
Harmonious duality
Vehicle of otherworldly journeys.
Fertility
Trust, loyalty
Legal marriage

Magical workings:
1. Facilitation of "soul travel" throughout the worlds and projection of the
"soul" in Midhgardhr.
2. Realization of fundamental unity of the psychosomatic complex.
3. Imparts trust and loyalty.
4. A source of prophetic wisdom.
5. Projection of magical power.
6. Facilitates swiftness in every regard.

****
My thoughts:
Harmony, trust, loyalty...being there in time of need, for better or for
worse. Stand ready to help those who need you or who rely on you. The
Havamal rune verse which appears relevant is...

146. I know those spells which a ruler's wife doesn't know,
nor any man's son;
"help" one is called,
and that will help you
against accusations and sorrows
and every sort of anxiety.

Odin seems to be saying that the wives of leaders and sons of men can't be
relied upon nor trusted. The son may not be loyal to his father. The
leader's wife may scheme and connive for her husband's downfall. One would
need awfully strong magic to ward against such treachery and betrayal of
trusts. The Family Sagas seem to bear witness to these sorts of behaviors.

Perhaps it's time to heed Odin's call. Strive for harmony, work on becoming
that loyal and trustworthy helper...learn to rely on and trust one another!
May the peace of Odin be upon you! ;-)

Heidi

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Post by Heidi Graw
LOL...

Glad I made you laugh. We had enough earnest topics
in the past days.

As for the runes: last year I succumbed to the charm
of a runic tablet retrieved from a cairn on a small
islet on the western shore of Greenland. I scanned
it, and worked on it graphically, enlarging the runes
and tracing them. The longer I worked the more
I liked it: I could almost see those brave men in
their nutshell of a boat in the Arctic sea ... Then
I looked out for the origin of runes, and came upon
Lepontic inscriptions from southern Switzerland.
The proto-runes on a stela, tombstone of a couple,
appealed to me, and a wavy line of such a proto-
rune, derived from the Etruscan alphabet, made
me jump to a conclusion: the curvilinear Celtic art
may have been inspired by flames. You may look
up my later messages in the thread: Challenge for
Naysayers of the Kensington Runestone, and the
sub-thread: curvilinear Celtic style inspired by flames?
(Strangely, both thread and sub-thred have disappeared
from the Google list of my messages). What I want to
say is this: when I begin reading the poetic Edda on
the Heidi Graw Day (October 10) I will in all probability
find something new nobody else has noticed before,
as it always happens, and then I must molest you
with my discovery in alt.religion.asartu ...

Be warned ;-)

Franz Gnaedinger

[Heidi Graw]

Post by Franz Gnaedinger

Post by Heidi Graw
LOL...

Glad I made you laugh. We had enough earnest topics
in the past days.
As for the runes: last year I succumbed to the charm
of a runic tablet retrieved from a cairn on a small
islet on the western shore of Greenland. I scanned
it, and worked on it graphically, enlarging the runes
and tracing them. The longer I worked the more
I liked it: I could almost see those brave men in
their nutshell of a boat in the Arctic sea ... Then
I looked out for the origin of runes, and came upon
Lepontic inscriptions from southern Switzerland.
The proto-runes on a stela, tombstone of a couple,
appealed to me, and a wavy line of such a proto-
rune, derived from the Etruscan alphabet,

Yes, I've also recognized the similarities between the Etruscan and Germanic
Runic alphabets.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
made
me jump to a conclusion: the curvilinear Celtic art
may have been inspired by flames.

Or coiled snakes. Midgard is surrounded by a huge monstrous serpent. The
snake seperates land from ocean. This serpent is also considered a
destructive force come the Ragnarok. Skadhi placed a poisonous snake over
Loki's head to make his imprisonment even more unpleasant. Snakes also gnaw
at the roots of Iggdrasil.

So, while in some Mediterrean Lore, the snake is considered a healing force,
note the physician's staff and snake symbol...and the much revered Snake
Goddess (morphed into Medusa), I've not come across anything Germanic to
indicate they thought snakes were beneficial and/or helpful. Biblical
accounts don't view snakes as very nice creatures either. ;-)

So, the Celtic art which demonstates these coiled symbols *could be*
interpreted as attempts to scare off intruders and/or unwelcome guests.
Those Viking dragon ships worked in the same way, use the dragon to
intimidate others. This does not mean Vikings were dragon worshippers or
that Celts were necessarily snake worshippers. They knew these were scary
things, so they used them as symbols of intimidation...to strike the fear
into others.

However, I do look forward to the conclusions you've reached. Fire was not
only necessary for heat and cooking, but fire was also used as a symbol for
wisdom...a fired up mind. And also related to reproduction and
fertility...fire in one's loins...passion! The rune Kenaz means
"torch"...the guiding light to wisdom...Lady of the Torch...guiding the
way...Hecate, perhaps?

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
You may look
up my later messages in the thread: Challenge for
Naysayers of the Kensington Runestone, and the
sub-thread: curvilinear Celtic style inspired by flames?
(Strangely, both thread and sub-thred have disappeared
from the Google list of my messages). What I want to
say is this: when I begin reading the poetic Edda on
the Heidi Graw Day (October 10) I will in all probability
find something new nobody else has noticed before,
as it always happens, and then I must molest you
with my discovery in alt.religion.asartu ...

alt.religion.asatru is an unmoderated newsgroup filled with all sorts of
crap! If you don't want to be harassed and flamed, you might want to
consider popping in at soc.religion.asatru. However, no matter which one
you choose, it's o.k. by me. I still read *both* newsgroups.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Be warned ;-)

I look forward to it! Give 'em heck if you think it's warranted. You can
also give me heck if you think I deserve it! ;-)

Take care,
Heidi

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Post by Heidi Graw
Or coiled snakes. Midgard is surrounded by a huge monstrous serpent. The
snake seperates land from ocean. This serpent is also considered a
destructive force come the Ragnarok. Skadhi placed a poisonous snake over
Loki's head to make his imprisonment even more unpleasant. Snakes also gnaw
at the roots of Iggdrasil.
So, while in some Mediterrean Lore, the snake is considered a healing force,
note the physician's staff and snake symbol...and the much revered Snake
Goddess (morphed into Medusa), I've not come across anything Germanic to
indicate they thought snakes were beneficial and/or helpful. Biblical
accounts don't view snakes as very nice creatures either. ;-)
So, the Celtic art which demonstates these coiled symbols *could be*
interpreted as attempts to scare off intruders and/or unwelcome guests.
Those Viking dragon ships worked in the same way, use the dragon to
intimidate others. This does not mean Vikings were dragon worshippers or
that Celts were necessarily snake worshippers. They knew these were scary
things, so they used them as symbols of intimidation...to strike the fear
into others.
However, I do look forward to the conclusions you've reached. Fire was not
only necessary for heat and cooking, but fire was also used as a symbol for
wisdom...a fired up mind. And also related to reproduction and
fertility...fire in one's loins...passion! The rune Kenaz means
"torch"...the guiding light to wisdom...Lady of the Torch...guiding the
way...Hecate, perhaps?

If one is bitten by a poisonous snake it burns like hell
(I imagine), the wound can inflame, one may get a fever,
feeling hot like fire from within. Both flames and snakes
creep, in German both can zuengeln. In the Egyptian
Underworld lived a giant serpent in a sea of fire, menacing
the sun when traversing the Earth by night. On the other
hand, Pharao in the sun boat was protected by snakes.
The Uraeus snake protected all royals in ancient Egypt.
The hellhound Cerberus breathed fire; a small iron figurine
from Armenia shows him with snakes growing out of his
body: symbols of fire.

The snake had many different meanings. It also symbolized
water, a creek, rivulet, river, stream. Yet in one case the
two aspects of fire and water go along, namely on a pillar
at Göbekli Tepe in southeast Anatolia, 11 600 - 9 500 BP,
one of the most amazing archaeological sites (still widely
ignored). A relief on that pillar shows a grid of wavy snakes,
heading downward and upward. I interpret the snakes
that are heading downward as rain filling the river beds,
and the snakes heading skyward as flames and smoke
of a sacrificial fire imploring rain. On the same pillar is
the relief of a ram, and placed before the pillar a slab
apparently the size of a ram, so rams could have been
sacrificed there when the summer was hot and the land
dried up.

The Earth was also seen as Goddess; the Underworld
was understood as her womb, source of all life. Wells,
water springing from the earth and filling creeks, were
then life giving "snakes" coming from the Goddess.
Snakes find their way into earth, which is why they
knew the life giving secrets of the Goddess and have
thus been worshipped by healers (my assumption).

My experimental reconstruction of Magdalenian led me
to the following Paleolithic belief: CER was the divine
hind-woman, present in Orion, licking moon bulls into
life, initiating new lunar cycles of alternately 30 29 30
29 30 ... days or nights. The young moon bulls were
present in Aldebaran and the Hyads. The marvellous
Altamira cave was dedicated to the divine hind,
provider of time. CER also was the divine stag
who guided and protected the sun when emerging
from the Underworld KAL in the morning, and when
disappearing into KAL in the evening. CER as
divine stag was present in the constellations of
Scorpio and Sagittarius as antler, opposite of Orion.
A third emanation of CER was the divine sake that
guided the sun in the Underworld KAL and across
the sky, and protected it along its way. The guiding
function was especially required by night, as the
Underworld was a place where one could go lost.
CER as hind and stag would have survived in
ancient Greek keros for horn, and in French cerf
for stag, also in Latin serpens for snake, English
serpent. Furthermore I rely on the silver cauldron
from Gundestrup in Denmark, which you certainly
know. The Celtic torq may be a similar symbol
as the Mesopotamian snake that seizes her tail
with her mouth, thus bringing the world into
existence.

Decorations of Cucuteni vessels indicate that
sun and moon were regarded as heavenly snakes.
In the Swiss Alps we have two reliefs on boulders
that probably represent a total eclipse of the sun
occurring on December 25, 1089 BC, at 10:17.
According to my calendar reconstructions,
that day, our December 25, was their New Year.
Now a total eclipse of the sun occurring on the
morning of the New Year's Day certainly was
an impressive or even frightening event for
those people, and has therefore been carved
in stone (Falera and Soglio). I interpret the
two carvings as moon snake attacking the sun
(illustrations on my website, I can give you
the links if you want).

Now you made me curious about the roles of
the snakes in the Eddas, and I look forward to
reading the poetic Edda in October.

Regards Franz Gnaedinger

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Franz Gnaedinger

Post by Heidi Graw
That's a huge undertaking...and way off topic for this newsgroup. ;-)

Don't care about sci.lang, we are getting killrated anyway.
They don't like a lively and colorful discussion, they hate
new ideas and oblige everybody to a narrow understanding
of language. Someone recommended my compatriote
Ferdinand de Saussure to me. De Saussure wrote a path-
breaking book and is worshipped as father of linguistics
of the 20th century. But he had to wait for recognition until
he was dead. His work was neither understood nor accepted

You have regained your health (good) but not your sanity. Saussure's
"path-breaking" work was not ununderstood or unaccepted; it was
unpublished.

The book published in 1916 after his death in 1913 was greeted
rapturously by his contemporaries and is indeed the beginning of modern
linguistics -- more important in its day than Chomsky in his.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
while he lived. If there had been a forum such as sci.lang in
his time, he would have been called a kook ...

As regards the time he wasted on "anagrammes," he _is_ considered a
kook.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Heideroeschen.

And the word is "Heidenroeslein," with -n- after "Heide-."

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Post by Peter T. Daniels
You have regained your health (good) but not your sanity. Saussure's
"path-breaking" work was not ununderstood or unaccepted; it was
unpublished.

Nice comment (about sanity). And as for de Saussure:
what did a certain Peter T. Daniels post to soc.culture.indian
on August 11 2006 11:08 pm?

Saussure's work was not understood or appreciated
during his lifetime

Can't I rely anymore on your word?

Post by Peter T. Daniels
As regards the time he wasted on "anagrammes," he _is_ considered a
kook.

So de Saussure was a fan of anagrammes? The love for
anagrammes testifies to the brain's use of permutations.
Permutations are again in use today with companies that
systematically search for names for their products.

Post by Peter T. Daniels
And the word is "Heidenroeslein," with -n- after "Heide-."

Heidenlaerm (noise made by pagans) but Heideroeslein
(Heide is a certain type of a meadow with shrubs near
a moor (?)).

Franz Gnaedinger

[Heidi Graw]

(snip)

Post by Franz Gnaedinger

Post by Peter T. Daniels
And the word is "Heidenroeslein," with -n- after "Heide-."

Heide - heath. Heiden - heathen. Heathlands are described as follows:

http://www.english-nature.org.uk/heathlands/default.htm
This is the proposed definition of lowland heathland:
"Lowland heathland is characterised by the presence of plants such as
heather, dwarf gorses, and cross-leaved heath and is generally found below
300 metres in altitude. Areas of good quality heathland should consist of an
ericaceous layer of varying heights and structures, plus some or all of the
following additional features: scattered trees and scrub; areas of bare
ground; areas of acid grassland; on rare occasions calcareous grassland with
limestone or chalk heath; gorse; wet heaths, bogs and/or open water. The
presence and numbers of characteristic birds, reptiles, invertebrates,
vascular plants, bryophytes and lichens are important indicators of habitat
quality."

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Heidenlaerm (noise made by pagans)

Considering I was born on the Heath and I am an actual Heathlander, I prefer
the term Heathen.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
but Heideroeslein
(Heide is a certain type of a meadow with shrubs near
a moor (?)).

Yes. So, the name Heiderose translates into Heath-Rose, or Rose of the
Heath. Heathlands do support a variety of wild roses. They may be quite
pretty to look at, but they are prickly things! So watch out! ;-)

It may be best for some men to stick with Daisies or Lilies, Violets and
Irises. The Heath-Rose, however, is only reserved for one of a kind types!
He has to be courageous, daring and prepared to be stung every once in a
while. He will have to accept he can't bend this Heath-Rose to his will,
but rather she will do as she wills! For to bend her is to break her and
then she dies. My father named me well! ;-) Stubborn, prickly...and just
the right sort for the Heathen man this Heath-Rose found worthy of marriage.
(chuckle)

Do you know just how hard it was to find an actual Heathen man 25 years ago?
It was like trying find a needle in the hay-stack! Every other man was
lugging around some Christian baggage that I simply and absolutely refused
to take on! "Christian? Sorry! I'm not for you! Go find someone else!"
;-)

Heidi

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Franz Gnaedinger

Post by Peter T. Daniels
You have regained your health (good) but not your sanity. Saussure's
"path-breaking" work was not ununderstood or unaccepted; it was
unpublished.

what did a certain Peter T. Daniels post to soc.culture.indian
on August 11 2006 11:08 pm?
Saussure's work was not understood or appreciated
during his lifetime
Can't I rely anymore on your word?

I don't even have to check the posting for the context you omitted to
know that that was about the "coéfficients sonantiques," not about the
work that revolutionized linguistics.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger

Post by Peter T. Daniels
As regards the time he wasted on "anagrammes," he _is_ considered a
kook.

So de Saussure was a fan of anagrammes? The love for
anagrammes testifies to the brain's use of permutations.
Permutations are again in use today with companies that
systematically search for names for their products.

Mostly, they're used in your fantasy "Magdalenian."

Post by Franz Gnaedinger

Post by Peter T. Daniels
And the word is "Heidenroeslein," with -n- after "Heide-."

Heidenlaerm (noise made by pagans) but Heideroeslein
(Heide is a certain type of a meadow with shrubs near
a moor (?)).

So Goethe got it wrong, and we've been singing the wrong Schubert song
all these years?

One or t'other of you even quoted the lyrics, though you didn't give
the title.

[Heidi Graw]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Franz Gnaedinger

Post by Peter T. Daniels
And the word is "Heidenroeslein," with -n- after "Heide-."

Heidenlaerm (noise made by pagans) but Heideroeslein
(Heide is a certain type of a meadow with shrubs near
a moor (?)).

So Goethe got it wrong, and we've been singing the wrong Schubert song
all these years?

No, the title is indeed "Heidenröslein"...that's according to the actual
poem.

Goethe wrote: "Röslein auf der Heiden." from a book of German Poetry I
have that was published in 1964 "Gedichte" - Gedruckt by Georg Wesermann,
Braunsweig 1964, Deutsches Lesewerk, 3.-6. Schuljahr, Bestell number 11 272.

I find this actually quite interesting.

Der Heide means heathen. Auf der Heiden would make that plural...Little
Rose on the heathens???
Die Heide, however, means heath as in heathland.

Had Goethe written, "Röslein auf die Heide." it would meant Little Rose on
the heathland.
And had he written, "Röslein auf die Heiden." it would mean Little Rose on
the heathlands (plural).

Did Goethe mean to use "der" instead of "die?" Hmmm...

As for Heideröslein, it is often translated into English to mean Briar-Rose.
However, I believe a more accurate translation should be Heath-Rose.

As in regards to a play on a girl's name, Heideröslein, is perfectly
acceptable. I've been called Heideröslein and Heideröschen as a diminutive
of Heiderose.

Franz came up with those as a response to my nicknaming him Franzelchen...a
diminutive of Franz. ;-)

Heidi

[Alan]

"Heidi Graw" wrote
[...]

Post by Heidi Graw
Der Heide means heathen. Auf der Heiden would make that plural...Little
Rose on the heathens???
Die Heide, however, means heath as in heathland.
Had Goethe written, "Röslein auf die Heide." it would meant Little Rose on
the heathland.
And had he written, "Röslein auf die Heiden." it would mean Little Rose on
the heathlands (plural).
Did Goethe mean to use "der" instead of "die?" Hmmm...

Before you go off on a wildly speculative tangent, you may want to consider
that the "Deutsches Wörterbuch von Jacob Grimm und Wilhelm Grimm" indcates
that "Heiden" can mean "pagan" and that it can also be a synonym for
"heath":
"HEIDEN, m. paganus, s. heide" ( http://tinyurl.com/jjrbf )

[Heidi Graw]

(snip)

Post by Alan
Before you go off on a wildly speculative tangent, you may want to
consider that the "Deutsches Wörterbuch von Jacob Grimm und Wilhelm Grimm"
indcates that "Heiden" can mean "pagan" and that it can also be a synonym
"HEIDEN, m. paganus, s. heide" ( http://tinyurl.com/jjrbf )

Yes, and my modern day "Das große Wörterbuch-Englisch-Deutsch;
Deutsch-Englisch" gives the following entries:

Heide: m. Heidin: f. heathen, pagan, biblisch: Gentile.

This applies to people: der Heide ...the male heathen, die Heidin...the
female heathen.

Heide: f. heath.

This applies to land...die Heide...the heath or heathland.

So, in Goethe's time, it appears that Heide was engendered as the masculine
meaning either heathen or heath.

However, I'd have to wonder if a feminine engendered noun Heide also existed
back Goethe's time. If not, then sometime between Grimm's time and now,
"die" Heide was something adopted and used to differenciate from "der"
Heide.

In any case "Röslein auf der Heiden" sounds strange to the modern German
ear. "Röslein auf die Heide" is much more appropriate give the context of
of that poem.

Heidi

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Post by Peter T. Daniels
I don't even have to check the posting for the context you omitted to
know that that was about the "coéfficients sonantiques," not about the
work that revolutionized linguistics.

That's right. But he got famous only after he died?

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Mostly, they're used in your fantasy "Magdalenian."

I systematically ponder the possibilities of words of
one or two or three letters (once again. the Roman
letters are phonemes of the Latin tongue). Nobody
did that before, so I have the pleasure to go for it.

Astrology thrives, even among educated people,
and testifies to a former time when astrology and
astronomy were one. Many people are fond of
anagrammes, which tells me analoguously that
they must have played a role in early language.

Post by Peter T. Daniels
So Goethe got it wrong, and we've been singing the wrong Schubert song
all these years?

Goethe wrote Roeslein auf der Heiden. "Auf der
Heiden" is a poetic form, allowed since there is no
way to confound Heiden (heath) with Heiden (heathens).

That little rose growing in a heath is obviously the symbol
of a girl reaching sexual maturity. If you said

Roeslein auf der Heide

the end were open, indicating a ready girl. But if you say

Roeslein auf der Heiden

the mouth closes, and the tip of the tongue between
the teeth is like a thorn (peak? German Stachel)
ready to sting. Careful when you approach this girl!

The language of Goethe has an oral plasticity about
it (as the one of Sigmund Freud). One line in the play
Iphigenie tells about dolphins ready to go on a journey.
When you prounounce that line your tongue flaps as if
imitating body and tail of a dolphin. Marvellous, Goethe
is the reason why I study language under the aspect of
oral physiology instead of phonemes, as everyone else
does. I guess that oral plasticity is a feature of archaic
(very early) language. I use it as a guideline for my
reconstruction of Magdalenian.

I don't know the title of Schubert's song, but to me
Heidenroeschen sounds wrong, meaning a flower
of a heathen. Heideroeschen is the correct term,
the name of a certain flower growing in a heath.

Why are you always hanging around me? May it be
that you are secretly fond of me, although you can't
admit it? You are perhaps fascinated by the never
ending stream of ideas. With me you are learning
about new aspects of language you never thought of
before.

Proud of that

Franz Gnaedinger

Heidi: Heide (heath) is feminine. If it were masculine
one had to say Roeslein auf dem Heiden.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Post by Franz Gnaedinger

Post by Peter T. Daniels
I don't even have to check the posting for the context you omitted to
know that that was about the "coéfficients sonantiques," not about the
work that revolutionized linguistics.

That's right. But he got famous only after he died?

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Mostly, they're used in your fantasy "Magdalenian."

I systematically ponder the possibilities of words of
one or two or three letters (once again. the Roman
letters are phonemes of the Latin tongue). Nobody
did that before, so I have the pleasure to go for it.
Astrology thrives, even among educated people,
and testifies to a former time when astrology and
astronomy were one. Many people are fond of
anagrammes, which tells me analoguously that
they must have played a role in early language.

Post by Peter T. Daniels
So Goethe got it wrong, and we've been singing the wrong Schubert song
all these years?

Goethe wrote Roeslein auf der Heiden. "Auf der
Heiden" is a poetic form, allowed since there is no
way to confound Heiden (heath) with Heiden (heathens).
That little rose growing in a heath is obviously the symbol
of a girl reaching sexual maturity. If you said
Roeslein auf der Heide
the end were open, indicating a ready girl. But if you say
Roeslein auf der Heiden
the mouth closes, and the tip of the tongue between
the teeth is like a thorn (peak? German Stachel)
ready to sting. Careful when you approach this girl!
The language of Goethe has an oral plasticity about
it (as the one of Sigmund Freud). One line in the play
Iphigenie tells about dolphins ready to go on a journey.
When you prounounce that line your tongue flaps as if
imitating body and tail of a dolphin. Marvellous, Goethe
is the reason why I study language under the aspect of
oral physiology instead of phonemes, as everyone else
does. I guess that oral plasticity is a feature of archaic
(very early) language. I use it as a guideline for my
reconstruction of Magdalenian.
I don't know the title of Schubert's song, but to me
Heidenroeschen sounds wrong, meaning a flower
of a heathen. Heideroeschen is the correct term,
the name of a certain flower growing in a heath.
Why are you always hanging around me? May it be
that you are secretly fond of me, although you can't
admit it? You are perhaps fascinated by the never
ending stream of ideas. With me you are learning
about new aspects of language you never thought of
before.
Proud of that
Franz Gnaedinger
Heidi: Heide (heath) is feminine. If it were masculine
one had to say Roeslein auf dem Heiden.

PS. Goethe's Roeslein auf der Heiden must be
a wild rose growing in a meadow. A Heideroeschen
is a different flower, poisonous but not stinging.

[Heidi Graw]

(snip)

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
PS. Goethe's Roeslein auf der Heiden must be
a wild rose growing in a meadow. A Heideroeschen
is a different flower, poisonous but not stinging.

Don't confuse Heather with Heide. Heiderose means Heath Rose....unless
Heath Rose is Heather? My goodness! Do we need to consult a botanist?
What sort of roses grow on heathlands? And can Heather be considered a
Rose? Arrghhh! ;-)

Heidi

[Heidi Graw]

(snip)

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
I don't know the title of Schubert's song, but to me
Heidenroeschen sounds wrong, meaning a flower
of a heathen. Heideroeschen is the correct term,
the name of a certain flower growing in a heath.

Title of the poem as it is in that book I have is:

"Heidenröslein"...there is that 'n' after Heide.

Perhaps Goethe did write that poem bearing in mind Heathen romance stories.
For example: Rinda knocked Odin about the head a couple of times and then
brought him down to his knees! Odin actually had to resort to trichery and
charms before Rinda would allow him anywhere near her! Gerd wasn't too keen
on Freyr's advances when he sent his servant to set up an engagement. Gerd
had to be threatened by Skirnir before she allowed herself to meet with
Freyr. The men all had to go through all sorts of contests to prove their
worthiness...climb mountains, swim rivers, kill dragons, win battles, come
bearing gifts in hand, demonstrate their intelligence, etc. The women all
played hard to get...feisty little things that the men had be wary about.
;-)

So, little Heidenröslein has her thorns to use as a defence against
overzealous boys. "You may look, but not touch!' The boy chose to touch
and got pricked. Not much he could do about it but to suffer the pain. ;-)

Of course, those Heathen women are so unlike Christian ones who are taught
to submit and obey. Dare to tell a Heathen woman to submit and she'll most
likely raise her eyebrow, sneer to indicate her contempt before she says,
"What? Are you talking to me? Get away from me, you twerp! Shoo!
Begone!" LOL.. ;-)

I actually know a Heathen couple where husband and wife spar with swords in
their driveway. A frightening sight for the neighbours to watch! Husband
and wife clashing battle swords! Whoah! Fortunately for my own hubby, I am
much too wimpy to be wielding a sword. I won't be cutting him in half
anytime soon! ;-)

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Heidi: Heide (heath) is feminine. If it were masculine
one had to say Roeslein auf dem Heiden.

Yes, thanks! "auf der" and "auf dem." It's been a long time when I last
sat in a German language classroom. I really should brush up on that
language....English, too. ;-)

As for Heidenröslein, if it's true as you say that it means Rose of a
Heathen, or Heathen Rose, Goethe's poem could indeed be about such a one.
She would be a wild rose, most likely a rose with five pedals. Dan Brown
had something to say about the number 5 (Phi) and how relevant it is in the
sciences and its mystical properties. Btw, Franz...10/10/55 is of great
significance to me. Heath-Rose, born in Gülden...thrice doubled fives...a
rose with 5 pedals. You figure it out. ;-)

Take care,
Heidi

[Peter T. Daniels]

[see end]

Post by Franz Gnaedinger

Post by Peter T. Daniels
I don't even have to check the posting for the context you omitted to
know that that was about the "coéfficients sonantiques," not about the
work that revolutionized linguistics.

That's right. But he got famous only after he died?

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Mostly, they're used in your fantasy "Magdalenian."

I systematically ponder the possibilities of words of
one or two or three letters (once again. the Roman
letters are phonemes of the Latin tongue). Nobody

No matter how many times you repeat it, it's still wrong.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
did that before, so I have the pleasure to go for it.
Astrology thrives, even among educated people,
and testifies to a former time when astrology and
astronomy were one. Many people are fond of
anagrammes, which tells me analoguously that
they must have played a role in early language.

Post by Peter T. Daniels
So Goethe got it wrong, and we've been singing the wrong Schubert song
all these years?

Goethe wrote Roeslein auf der Heiden. "Auf der
Heiden" is a poetic form, allowed since there is no
way to confound Heiden (heath) with Heiden (heathens).
That little rose growing in a heath is obviously the symbol
of a girl reaching sexual maturity. If you said
Roeslein auf der Heide
the end were open, indicating a ready girl. But if you say
Roeslein auf der Heiden
the mouth closes, and the tip of the tongue between
the teeth is like a thorn (peak? German Stachel)
ready to sting. Careful when you approach this girl!
The language of Goethe has an oral plasticity about
it (as the one of Sigmund Freud). One line in the play
Iphigenie tells about dolphins ready to go on a journey.
When you prounounce that line your tongue flaps as if
imitating body and tail of a dolphin. Marvellous, Goethe
is the reason why I study language under the aspect of
oral physiology instead of phonemes, as everyone else
does. I guess that oral plasticity is a feature of archaic
(very early) language. I use it as a guideline for my
reconstruction of Magdalenian.
I don't know the title of Schubert's song, but to me
Heidenroeschen sounds wrong, meaning a flower
of a heathen. Heideroeschen is the correct term,
the name of a certain flower growing in a heath.
Why are you always hanging around me? May it be
that you are secretly fond of me, although you can't
admit it? You are perhaps fascinated by the never
ending stream of ideas. With me you are learning
about new aspects of language you never thought of
before.
Proud of that

I left all that bloviating in just to show how much bloviating you do
just to end up wrong, wrong, wrong. The title of Goethe's poem and of
Schubert's song is "Heidenroeslein," as you could see by looking in any
volume of Goethe's shorter poems or any list of familiar Lieder.

[O-V R:nen]

Post by Peter T. Daniels
I left all that bloviating in just to show how much bloviating you do
just to end up wrong, wrong, wrong. The title of Goethe's poem and of
Schubert's song is "Heidenroeslein," as you could see by looking in any
volume of Goethe's shorter poems or any list of familiar Lieder.

And the other one can be "Heide(n)röschen" with or without the Fuge-(e)n.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Post by Peter T. Daniels
I left all that bloviating in just to show how much bloviating you do
just to end up wrong, wrong, wrong. The title of Goethe's poem and of
Schubert's song is "Heidenroeslein," as you could see by looking in any
volume of Goethe's shorter poems or any list of familiar Lieder.

Yes, you are fomd of me, and envious that I spend more
time with Heidi than with you. But you hide it well behind
your grumpiness.

The title of the poem as I remember it from my far bygone
schooldays is Roeslein auf der Heiden. If it is Heidenroeslein
there are several possible explanations:

A) Heidenroeslein is an old form

B) a publisher gave this title to the poem, and it stuck

C) Goethe proudly confessed being week in orthography

D) he chose this title in order to discern his wild rose from
the Heideroeschen, which is a different flower, no spines
but poisonous; but then he could have chosen Heideroeslein
without the ligating -n-

E) Goethe wrote that one can read his work two ways,
either like going on a pleasure walk, or digging deeper.
Those wishing to go deeper will easily find the entrance.
Heidi might have had the right intuition. (Stay calm,
Petey, there's a good boy.) She said the additional n
might allude to a heathen. The girl symbolized by the
wild rose might then have been a zigane beauty (Roma,
Sinti, ...) living outside the village or town, in the heath,
in the open field. Goethe might have dedicated his poem
to a girl he met in his boyhood. - The American psycho-
analyst Eisler wrote a book on Goethe and devoted the
central chapter (some twenty pages, as I recall) to the
very short but famous poem "Ueber allen Wipfeln ist
Ruh." Surprising result: when Goethe wrote that poem
he wished to get rid of one woman in order to be free
for another woman he fell in love with. Roeslein auf der
Heiden may well be another poem dedicated to a love
of his, an early love this time.

Bloviatingly yours

Franz Gnaedinger

PS. What does bloviating mean?

[Heidi Graw]

(snip)

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
The title of the poem as I remember it from my far bygone
schooldays is Roeslein auf der Heiden. If it is Heidenroeslein
A) Heidenroeslein is an old form
B) a publisher gave this title to the poem, and it stuck
C) Goethe proudly confessed being week in orthography
D) he chose this title in order to discern his wild rose from
the Heideroeschen, which is a different flower, no spines
but poisonous;

...but what sort of poisoneous Heath flower are you thinking about? Is
there an English or Latin name for it? Can you find a picture of it in the
Google picture archives?

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
but then he could have chosen Heideroeslein
without the ligating -n-
E) Goethe wrote that one can read his work two ways,
either like going on a pleasure walk, or digging deeper.
Those wishing to go deeper will easily find the entrance.
Heidi might have had the right intuition. (Stay calm,
Petey, there's a good boy.) She said the additional n
might allude to a heathen. The girl symbolized by the
wild rose might then have been a zigane beauty (Roma,
Sinti, ...) living outside the village or town, in the heath,
in the open field.

A gypsy girl? Hmmm....possible...

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Goethe might have dedicated his poem
to a girl he met in his boyhood.

Yes, that poem does have a playful innocense about it.

- The American psycho-

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
analyst Eisler wrote a book on Goethe and devoted the
central chapter (some twenty pages, as I recall) to the
very short but famous poem "Ueber allen Wipfeln ist
Ruh." Surprising result: when Goethe wrote that poem
he wished to get rid of one woman in order to be free
for another woman he fell in love with. Roeslein auf der
Heiden may well be another poem dedicated to a love
of his, an early love this time.

It's not entirely outrageous to believe a poet might have romantic notions
about gypsies...rings on her fingers and bells on her toes...swinging her
hips, she casts a magic spell over him and he becomes helpless. Then she
robs him of his money and takes off. ;-)

However, this isn't really what happened to Heidenröslein. She sat firmly
where she was, looking all pretty in pink. Then the boy intruded on her
space and threatened to break her. She in turn retorts: "You do that and
I'll prick you!" Which she did! ;-)

So, the gypsy girl would have used her feminine wiles to entrap the boy and
then do him harm by her deception. That Heathen girl, however, responded to
a threat in kind...tit for tat. Plus, she lived up to her word! Unlike
that gypsy, the Heathen girl stood firm and was honest! And when the boy
harmed her, he had to suffer the consequences. ;-)

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Bloviatingly yours
Franz Gnaedinger
PS. What does bloviating mean?

To talk with great windiness...iow...he thinks you're a windbag...a
blowhard.

I don't agree. ;-)

Heidi

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Post by Heidi Graw
...but what sort of poisoneous Heath flower are you thinking about? Is
there an English or Latin name for it? Can you find a picture of it in the
Google picture archives?

Heath rose, rock rose, Daphne ceorum. On the other hand,
Heiderose is a Scottish hedgerose, Rosa spinosissima,
an actual rose, with many spines. I looked up a dictionary
and found that both forms are in use: Heideröschen and
Heidenröschen, Heideröslein and Heidenröslein. The n-form
may be the older one. There might be a connection between
Heide for heath and Heide for heathen. Perhaps this one:
Christians go to Church, while heathens perform their
rituals in nature, in the heathland.

Post by Heidi Graw
It's not entirely outrageous to believe a poet might have romantic notions
about gypsies...rings on her fingers and bells on her toes...swinging her
hips, she casts a magic spell over him and he becomes helpless. Then she
robs him of his money and takes off. ;-)
However, this isn't really what happened to Heidenröslein. She sat firmly
where she was, looking all pretty in pink. Then the boy intruded on her
space and threatened to break her. She in turn retorts: "You do that and
I'll prick you!" Which she did! ;-)
So, the gypsy girl would have used her feminine wiles to entrap the boy and
then do him harm by her deception. That Heathen girl, however, responded to
a threat in kind...tit for tat. Plus, she lived up to her word! Unlike
that gypsy, the Heathen girl stood firm and was honest! And when the boy
harmed her, he had to suffer the consequences. ;-)

The utter simplicity of the poem is deceiving. I think
that as a teenager Goethe meet a beautiful gipsy girl,
a wild one who offered resistance, then he conquered
her, and broke her heart. In later years he felt guilty
about it, and, as a poet, transformed the suffering
he caused to the poor girl into beautiful language,
for a compensation - her suffering, balanced by our
joy and pleasure. A hypothesis. of course.

Have a nice Sunday

Franz Gnaedinger

[Heidi Graw]

Post by Franz Gnaedinger

Post by Heidi Graw
...but what sort of poisoneous Heath flower are you thinking about? Is
there an English or Latin name for it? Can you find a picture of it in the
Google picture archives?

Heath rose, rock rose, Daphne ceorum.

Daphne doesn't have any prickles.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
On the other hand,
Heiderose is a Scottish hedgerose, Rosa spinosissima,
an actual rose, with many spines.

That could be it.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibernell-Rose

...real prickly little thing.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
I looked up a dictionary
and found that both forms are in use: Heideröschen and
Heidenröschen, Heideröslein and Heidenröslein. The n-form
may be the older one. There might be a connection between
Christians go to Church, while heathens perform their
rituals in nature, in the heathland.

Depends on the weather. On dry days the ceremonies may take place outdoors.
On rainy days they can take place inside their Halls. Heathens did have
temples. Some made out of wood, others out of stone. They also had all
kinds of other little holy places, groves, hills, springs, special stones,
etc. If a particular landscape looked magical, it became holy.

(snip)

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
The utter simplicity of the poem is deceiving. I think
that as a teenager Goethe meet a beautiful gipsy girl,
a wild one who offered resistance, then he conquered
her, and broke her heart. In later years he felt guilty
about it, and, as a poet, transformed the suffering
he caused to the poor girl into beautiful language,
for a compensation - her suffering, balanced by our
joy and pleasure. A hypothesis. of course.

As that gypsy girl, she might also have cursed the boy who broke her heart.
For those few minutes of pleasure, she might have caused him feel life-long
pain and suffering!

In any case, you seem to like this gypsy girl fantasy. I'll leave you to it!
;-)

Take care,
Heidi

[Alan]

Post by Heidi Graw

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
There might be a connection between
Christians go to Church, while heathens perform their
rituals in nature, in the heathland.

Depends on the weather. On dry days the ceremonies may take place
outdoors. On rainy days they can take place inside their Halls. Heathens
did have temples. Some made out of wood, others out of stone. They also
had all kinds of other little holy places, groves, hills, springs, special
stones, etc. If a particular landscape looked magical, it became holy.

What makes you speak of "heathen" as if they were an identifiable, cohesive
group sharing a unified ritual and belief system? Before you carelessly
co-opt a word for your own special meaning, you really ought to take the
trouble to look that word up to find out how the rest of the
English-speaking world uses it. For your enlightenment, here's a typical
definition of the term:

heathen = ". noun derogatory a person who does not belong to a widely held
religion (especially Christianity, Judaism, or Islam) as regarded by those
who do." (http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/heathen?view=uk)

As far as its etymology, Oxford also says: " Old English, probably from a
Germanic word meaning inhabiting open country, savage; related to HEATH."
Other sources agree . . .

I know that it's so much more fun to start from unwarranted assumption and
work toward wild speculation, but you really ought to do a little research
first.

[Heidi Graw]

Post by Alan

Post by Heidi Graw

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
There might be a connection between
Christians go to Church, while heathens perform their
rituals in nature, in the heathland.

Depends on the weather. On dry days the ceremonies may take place
outdoors. On rainy days they can take place inside their Halls. Heathens
did have temples. Some made out of wood, others out of stone. They also
had all kinds of other little holy places, groves, hills, springs,
special stones, etc. If a particular landscape looked magical, it became
holy.

What makes you speak of "heathen" as if they were an identifiable,
cohesive group sharing a unified ritual and belief system?

I don't think what I wrote claims that! You'll find all sorts of different
heathens...different groups, doing different things.

Post by Alan
Before you carelessly co-opt a word for your own special meaning, you
really ought to take the trouble to look that word up to find out how the
rest of the English-speaking world uses it. For your enlightenment, here's
heathen = ". noun derogatory a person who does not belong to a widely
held religion (especially Christianity, Judaism, or Islam) as regarded by
those who do." (http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/heathen?view=uk)

Yes, and I know that. The Hindus and Buddhists don't care much for being
called Heathens. However, *I* don't mind the term at all! It suits me and
it's an appropriate term for me. I *am* non-Christian, non-Jewish, and
non-Muslim. I call myself Asatru...it's one of the many heathen religions.

Post by Alan
As far as its etymology, Oxford also says: " Old English, probably from a
Germanic word meaning inhabiting open country, savage; related to HEATH."
Other sources agree . . .

Yes, and I was born on the Lueneburger Heide (Heath.) My name is also
Heath-Rose. I'm also of the Heathen religious faith.

Post by Alan
I know that it's so much more fun to start from unwarranted assumption and
work toward wild speculation, but you really ought to do a little research
first.

You're not telling me anything I'm not already aware of. Some heathens
worship in temples, others outdoors. And when the weather is lousy, they
hold ceremonies indoors. Heathens will also have favorite places in nature
which are conducive to meditative thoughts and which may be considered holy
and sacred. Heathens, depending on which ones, will also have assorted
different rituals, customs, beliefs and stories. My focus is on the
pre-Christian *Northern European* religion. My lore books are the Eddas.
Other heathens will have other stories and other books.

And, no...I don't cast spells, nor hurl curses! I also don't perform magic
tricks. Although I have been tempted to raise a Nithing Pole on
occasion...to scare away those Jehovah Witnesses! ;-)

Heidi

[Alan]

Post by Heidi Graw

Post by Alan

Post by Heidi Graw

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
There might be a connection between
Christians go to Church, while heathens perform their
rituals in nature, in the heathland.

Depends on the weather. On dry days the ceremonies may take place
outdoors. On rainy days they can take place inside their Halls.
Heathens did have temples. Some made out of wood, others out of stone.
They also had all kinds of other little holy places, groves, hills,
springs, special stones, etc. If a particular landscape looked magical,
it became holy.

What makes you speak of "heathen" as if they were an identifiable,
cohesive group sharing a unified ritual and belief system?

I don't think what I wrote claims that! You'll find all sorts of
different heathens...different groups, doing different things.

****Exactly my point --- so where do you come up with the concepts of
"looking magical", "becoming holy", "little holy places"?

Post by Heidi Graw

Post by Alan
Before you carelessly co-opt a word for your own special meaning, you
really ought to take the trouble to look that word up to find out how the
rest of the English-speaking world uses it. For your enlightenment,
heathen = ". noun derogatory a person who does not belong to a widely
held religion (especially Christianity, Judaism, or Islam) as regarded by
those who do." (http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/heathen?view=uk)

Yes, and I know that. The Hindus and Buddhists don't care much for being
called Heathens. However, *I* don't mind the term at all! It suits me
and it's an appropriate term for me. I *am* non-Christian, non-Jewish,
and non-Muslim. I call myself Asatru...it's one of the many heathen
religions.

Post by Alan
As far as its etymology, Oxford also says: " Old English, probably from a
Germanic word meaning inhabiting open country, savage; related to HEATH."
Other sources agree . . .

Yes, and I was born on the Lueneburger Heide (Heath.) My name is also
Heath-Rose. I'm also of the Heathen religious faith.

***What do your name, birthplace, and religio-philosophical point of view
have to do with a discussion of Goethe's "Heidenroeselein"? And since when
do you spell "heathen" with a capital "H"?

Post by Heidi Graw

Post by Alan
I know that it's so much more fun to start from unwarranted assumption
and work toward wild speculation, but you really ought to do a little
research first.

You're not telling me anything I'm not already aware of. Some heathens
worship in temples, others outdoors. And when the weather is lousy, they
hold ceremonies indoors. Heathens will also have favorite places in
nature which are conducive to meditative thoughts and which may be
considered holy and sacred. Heathens, depending on which ones, will also
have assorted different rituals, customs, beliefs and stories. My focus
is on the pre-Christian *Northern European* religion. My lore books are
the Eddas.

***Ah, now I see: the Heidi-centered idea of what a "heathen" (with a
capital "H", no doubt) is, has to do HER focus on "pre-Christian *Northern
European* religion" and with HER "lore books" ----- fine, why didn't you
just say so in the first place? When you communicate with others, you
should learn that it's not all about YOUR focus, or "your" "lore books".

Post by Heidi Graw
Other heathens will have other stories and other books.

*** Nice of you to concede that . .

[Heidi Graw]

(snip)

Post by Alan

Post by Heidi Graw

Post by Alan
What makes you speak of "heathen" as if they were an identifiable,
cohesive group sharing a unified ritual and belief system?

I don't think what I wrote claims that! You'll find all sorts of
different heathens...different groups, doing different things.

****Exactly my point --- so where do you come up with the concepts of
"looking magical", "becoming holy", "little holy places"?

Read Tacitus, Saxo, Adam of Bremen...any old scholar who wrote anything
about Heathens and their practises. I, however, suggest you stay away from
Wiccans....their stuff is so off the wall, it's actually quite amusing for
Heathens to watch. ;-)

Anyway, a modern day example: My husband is also a bonafide and real
Heathen. We live on acreage. And out back are the woods. Our house is
also surrounded by immense Cedar trees. We have on our property sacred
places...my husband consecrated them as sacred. I also have my own little
sacred grove on our property. These are very special and very holy. We
also don't share these places with just anyone.

Post by Alan

Post by Heidi Graw
Yes, and I was born on the Lueneburger Heide (Heath.) My name is also
Heath-Rose. I'm also of the Heathen religious faith.

***What do your name, birthplace, and religio-philosophical point of view
have to do with a discussion of Goethe's "Heidenroeselein"? And since
when do you spell "heathen" with a capital "H"?

I like to spell Heathen with a capital H because I put great importance to
that name. It's special and I like it! ;-)
As for Goethe's poem, members of the German Heathen community also happen to
like it. I like it in particular because my name is Heath-Rose. And when I
meet new Heathens and they find out my name, the first thing they recite is
that poem! I am a person of the Heath. I'm a Heathlander...a
Heathen...(although transplanted to the foothills of the Coastal Mountain
Range) and that poem is not too far a stretch to make an association to
that poem. If Goethe meant it otherwise doesn't really matter.

(snip)

Post by Alan
***Ah, now I see: the Heidi-centered idea of what a "heathen" (with a
capital "H", no doubt) is, has to do HER focus on "pre-Christian *Northern
European* religion" and with HER "lore books" ----- fine, why didn't you
just say so in the first place? When you communicate with others, you
should learn that it's not all about YOUR focus, or "your" "lore books".

Well...we were discussing Goethe's poem. We also talked about the German
language. So, when the subject of Heathen came up, it should have been
rather quite clear we were not talking about Heathens living in North
America, Africa or in England. Sheez!

Heidi

[Alan]

... and I was born on the Lueneburger Heide

Are you talking about THE Lueneburger Heide in the Vierlaender area just
outside of Hamburg, and right next to Altengamme and Neuengamme?

Alan

[Heidi Graw]

Post by Alan

... and I was born on the Lueneburger Heide

Are you talking about THE Lueneburger Heide in the Vierlaender area just
outside of Hamburg, and right next to Altengamme and Neuengamme?

Yes, Alan. I also lived in Hamburg for a few years. I still have relatives
living in the Lueneburger Heide. I was born in a little village called
Gülden. My relations live in Zernien. I don't know if you can find these
places on the map...they're so tiny. ;-)

Heidi

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
The American psycho-
analyst Eisler wrote a book on Goethe and devoted the
central chapter (some twenty pages, as I recall) to the
very short but famous poem "Ueber allen Wipfeln ist
Ruh."

Gipfeln.

Ueber allen Gipfeln ist Ruh.
In allen Wipfeln spuerest du
Kaum einen Hauch.
Die Voeglein schwiegen im Wald'.
Warte nur -- bald
Ruhest du auch.

It may have been the second or third thing our 11th-grade (2nd-year)
German teacher had us memorize. That was 40 years ago next month, and
I've never had occasion to look at it since, except as set by Schubert
and Schumann.

Another was "Erlkoenig," another was"Die Lorelei" of Heine.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Ueber allen Gipfeln ist Ruh.
In allen Wipfeln spuerest du
Kaum einen Hauch.
Die Voeglein schwiegen im Wald'.
Warte nur -- bald
Ruhest du auch.
It may have been the second or third thing our 11th-grade (2nd-year)
German teacher had us memorize. That was 40 years ago next month, and
I've never had occasion to look at it since, except as set by Schubert
and Schumann.

You remember it well, after such a long time.
Here is the (hopefuly) correct version:

Ueber allen Gipfeln
Ist Ruh.
In allen Wipfeln
Spuerest Du
Kaum einen Hauch.
Die Voegelein schweigen im Walde.
Warte nur, balde
Ruhest Du auch.

Now read what Eisler made of this poem.
Compared with his interpretation mine of the
Heideroeschen is very simple.

Regards to you (as you magaged to write
a reply without invective)

Franz Gnaedinger

[l***@cs.com]

Post by Alan
as kel-1 and kel-2. Have a look at
http://www.bartleby.com/61/IEroots.html for more detail.
Homonymous PIE roots are not rare, and there is no need to "reconcile"
their existence.

1. to cover or conceal.
2. to call, ring clear, luminous.
3. warm (as in lukewarm), cauldron
4. hill.

Post by Alan

Post by Heidi Graw
(snip)

Post by Alan

Post by p***@abo.fi

Post by Heidi Graw
Is this German "hell" in any way connected to the P.Gmc. *khaljo
and/or
from PIE *kel- meaning "to cover, conceal save [as in save to keep]?"

According to Wahrig, it comes from a PIE root *kel- meaning "rufen",
i.e. to call, to shout, and it is related to such German words as Hall
(as in "widerhallen") and Schall, Schelle. Intermediary stages are
Middle High German hellen "ertönen" (i.e. "to resound, to ring out")
and hel "tönend, laut, licht glänzend" i.e. "loud, luminous" - I
guess you can speak about loud colours or say that a colour is too
loud, in English, too.

(snip)

Post by Alan
Oh wow, before you confuse yourself any further, and jump to even wilder
conclusions, you might want to read the following regarding the origins
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/5595/gods/hela.html

Alan, reconcile for me, please, the two different meanings offered for the
root PIE: *kel-
The one claims "to cover, conceal"...the other "rufen"..."to call, ring
out, luminous"
Old Norse and Old English claims Hella is that dark concealed one. Old
German, however, claims Hella is bright an fair. Two paths seemed to have
diverged from the root *kel-.
The one claiming *kel- is related to cell or cellar, and perhaps the
German Keller. However, to kellen, being a German speaker myself, I can
understand how *kel- can be related to sound...to call. Kelle in German
can mean signal. How do you signal someone? By calling perhaps?
Anyway, a German dialect of some sort may account for the difference.
In any case, there's a bunch of other stuff about Hel that I'm examining.
It's good to know that Wahrig has a different interpretation. I can also
understand why Wahrig may have chosen it.

First of all, it's important to realize that Wahrig doesn't have a
"different" interpretation for the meaning of *kel-. He has offered *kel-
(to shout) as PIE root for the German word "hell" meaning bright, light, or
loud. If Wahrig were consulted regarding the PIE root of the German word
"Hölle", he would have offered the PIE root *kel- (to conceal) as well.
There are words in English *and* in German which ultimately derive from
different meanings of the PIE *kel-. The 2 *kel are sometimes referred to
as kel-1 and kel-2. Have a look at http://www.bartleby.com/61/IEroots.html
for more detail.
Homonymous PIE roots are not rare, and there is no need to "reconcile" their
existence.

.........

1) "Is this German "hell" in any way connected to the P.Gmc. *khaljo
and/or from PIE *kel- meaning "to cover, conceal save [as in save to
keep]?"

I don't know about the assumed veracity of any putative *P.Gmc
constructs, but proceeding along my previous tac, I see the Baltic term
for 'cave' ; Lith. "ola" or Latvian "ala" to be the likely source for
the germanic 'hell'.

2) "According to Wahrig, it comes from a PIE root *kel- meaning
"rufen", i.e. to call, to shout, and it is related to such German words
as Hall (as in "widerhallen") and Schall, Schelle. Intermediary stages
are Middle High German hellen "ertönen" (i.e. "to resound, to ring
out") and hel "tönend, laut, licht glänzend" i.e. "loud, luminous" -
I"

Again it's from Baltic Lith. "kalba" meaning 'language' or 'speech'.

3) http://www.bartleby.com/61/IEroots.html - 'hill'
"kel-2
DEFINITION: To be prominent; hill. 1. Zero-grade form *k-. a. hill,
from Old English hyll, hill, from suffixed Germanic form *hul-ni-; b.
holm, from Old Norse hlmr, islet in a bay, meadow, from suffixed
Germanic form *hul-ma-. 2. Suffixed form *kel-d-. excel, from Latin
excellere, to raise up, elevate, also to be eminent (ex-, up out of;
see eghs). "

Wrong.
The germanic form is from Baltic; Lith. "kalva" meaning 'hill' or
Latvian (and Lithuanian) "kalna" meaning 'hill' or mountain.

The Latin 'excell' is an entirely different root - related to the
Baltic Latvian "celt" (pronounced 'tselt') meaning 'to raise up'.

PS: "You'll see that her name has nothing at all to do with brightness,

lightness, or blondeness. That Hel was referred to as
"Gná-of-Glitnir" (in
the Ynglingatal, by the way --- *not* the Ynglinga) also has nothing
at all
to do with "brightness" or any "wildly colourful" aspect of Hel, in
spite of
the fact that Glitnir happens to mean "shining" or "glistening"."

Baltic Latvian "glits" meaning 'pretty' or 'handsome'.
..


6101922 - 'Uno Hu'

[Heidi Graw]

(snip)

1) "Is this German "hell" in any way connected to the P.Gmc. *khaljo
and/or from PIE *kel- meaning "to cover, conceal save [as in save to
keep]?"

lorad474 answered:
I don't know about the assumed veracity of any putative *P.Gmc
constructs, but proceeding along my previous tac, I see the Baltic term
for 'cave' ; Lith. "ola" or Latvian "ala" to be the likely source for
the germanic 'hell'.

2) "According to Wahrig, it comes from a PIE root *kel- meaning
"rufen", i.e. to call, to shout, and it is related to such German words
as Hall (as in "widerhallen") and Schall, Schelle. Intermediary stages
are Middle High German hellen "ertönen" (i.e. "to resound, to ring
out") and hel "tönend, laut, licht glänzend" i.e. "loud, luminous" -
I"

lorad474 answered:
Again it's from Baltic Lith. "kalba" meaning 'language' or 'speech'.

3) http://www.bartleby.com/61/IEroots.html - 'hill'
"kel-2
DEFINITION: To be prominent; hill. 1. Zero-grade form *k-. a. hill,
from Old English hyll, hill, from suffixed Germanic form *hul-ni-; b.
holm, from Old Norse hlmr, islet in a bay, meadow, from suffixed
Germanic form *hul-ma-. 2. Suffixed form *kel-d-. excel, from Latin
excellere, to raise up, elevate, also to be eminent (ex-, up out of;
see eghs). "

lorad474 answered:
Wrong.
The germanic form is from Baltic; Lith. "kalva" meaning 'hill' or
Latvian (and Lithuanian) "kalna" meaning 'hill' or mountain.

The Latin 'excell' is an entirely different root - related to the
Baltic Latvian "celt" (pronounced 'tselt') meaning 'to raise up'.

PS: "You'll see that her name has nothing at all to do with brightness,

lightness, or blondeness. That Hel was referred to as
"Gná-of-Glitnir" (in
the Ynglingatal, by the way --- *not* the Ynglinga) also has nothing
at all
to do with "brightness" or any "wildly colourful" aspect of Hel, in
spite of
the fact that Glitnir happens to mean "shining" or "glistening"."

Baltic Latvian "glits" meaning 'pretty' or 'handsome'.
..

****
Thanks, lorad474. I'm beginning to regret having asked questions! I'm
getting so many different answers, that it's going to be great fun sorting
through this mess! Ah well... ;-)

Take care,
Heidi





6101922 - 'Uno Hu'