Discussion:
lithuanian "bobute"
(too old to reply)
Marc Adler
2004-07-14 02:07:37 UTC
Permalink
Does anyone know if this is the correct/natural Lithuanian way of saying
"Grandma" (a familiar way for a grandchild to call his grandmother)?

Also, where does the accent fall? BObute? boBUte? bobuTE?

Thanks in advance.
--
Maar God weet, dat, ten dage |
als gij daarvan eet, zo zullen | Marc Adler |------
uw ogen geopend worden, en gij | /
zult als God wezen, kennende het | ------| ***@gmail.com
goed en het kwaad. - Genesis 3:5 |
Peter Dy
2004-07-14 02:53:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marc Adler
Does anyone know if this is the correct/natural Lithuanian way of saying
"Grandma" (a familiar way for a grandchild to call his grandmother)?
I called her "mociute".

Peter
Deranged Personality Splinter
2004-07-14 18:32:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Dy
I called her "mociute".
You had a Lithuanian grandmother? Wow!

So how do you pronounce that?
--
Maar God weet, dat, ten dage |
als gij daarvan eet, zo zullen | Marc Adler |------
uw ogen geopend worden, en gij | /
zult als God wezen, kennende het | ------| ***@gmail.com
goed en het kwaad. - Genesis 3:5 |
Peter Dy
2004-07-14 22:45:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Deranged Personality Splinter
Post by Peter Dy
I called her "mociute".
You had a Lithuanian grandmother? Wow!
?? There's several million of us! And I had Lithuanian grandfather too!
We called him "senelis".
Post by Deranged Personality Splinter
So how do you pronounce that?
There should be an upside-down circumflex over the "c", btw. The way I
pronounced it was [ mo'tSUtI ]. That may be not be entirely correct; I
never learned Lithuanian, even though my grandmother didn't speak English.

Peter
--
Heilige Leute, sagt man, sie wollten besonders dem Sünder
Und der Sünderin wohl. Geht's mir doch eben auch so.

--Goethe, Epigramme 72.
John Atkinson
2004-07-15 03:11:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Dy
Post by Deranged Personality Splinter
Post by Peter Dy
I called her "mociute".
You had a Lithuanian grandmother? Wow!
?? There's several million of us!
Yeah. See http://www.ucomics.com/preteena/2004/07/12/ (Seems to be a
couple of spelling mistakes here though.)
Post by Peter Dy
And I had Lithuanian grandfather too!
We called him "senelis".
Post by Deranged Personality Splinter
So how do you pronounce that?
There should be an upside-down circumflex over the "c", btw. The way I
pronounced it was [ mo'tSUtI ]. That may be not be entirely correct; I
never learned Lithuanian, even though my grandmother didn't speak English.
I understand it's [motSu'te:] in the nominative, [motSu'tE:] in the
vocative. That is, stress is on the last syllable for these cases.

It is, of course, a diminutive form of moc^ia, mother. Presumably also
related to moteris (= woman), motina (= mother), motule, motuz^e, motute
(all = mom, mummy).

Though the most common word used by kids to/about their mother seems to be
'mama'. (Is this right, Peter?)

Bobute, which also means old woman, crone, comes from boba (=woman, wife),
again with the diminutive ending -ute. I presume this is cognate with
(probably borrowed from) Slavic baba (cf Baba Yaga, babushka, etc).

John.
Peter Dy
2004-07-15 04:21:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Atkinson
Post by Peter Dy
Post by Deranged Personality Splinter
Post by Peter Dy
I called her "mociute".
You had a Lithuanian grandmother? Wow!
?? There's several million of us!
Yeah. See http://www.ucomics.com/preteena/2004/07/12/ (Seems to be a
couple of spelling mistakes here though.)
Cute. Thanks.


[...]
Post by John Atkinson
Post by Peter Dy
Post by Deranged Personality Splinter
So how do you pronounce that?
There should be an upside-down circumflex over the "c", btw. The way I
pronounced it was [ mo'tSUtI ]. That may be not be entirely correct; I
never learned Lithuanian, even though my grandmother didn't speak English.
I understand it's [motSu'te:] in the nominative, [motSu'tE:] in the
vocative. That is, stress is on the last syllable for these cases.
Thanks. Yeah, I think that's what I said. My grandmother passed away in
1986, so I haven't used that word in a while.


[...]
Post by John Atkinson
Though the most common word used by kids to/about their mother seems to be
'mama'. (Is this right, Peter?)
That's what I called my mom, yeah. But I didn't know it was Lithuanian.
Kids don't say that in English? There was about a dozen words growing up
that I knew only in Lithuanian: robe, bedsheets, clothes hamper... I
remember my first overnight stay at a friend's in maybe the third grade and
I didn't know what words to use for such things. And when asked about my
grandma, I remember thinking, "She's not my grandmother! She's my
moc^iute."

[...]
Peter
--
Heilige Leute, sagt man, sie wollten besonders dem Sünder
Und der Sünderin wohl. Geht's mir doch eben auch so.

--Goethe, Epigramme 72.
John Atkinson
2004-07-16 02:48:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Dy
[...]
Though the most common word used by [Lithuanian]kids to/about their
mother seems to be
Post by Peter Dy
'mama'. (Is this right, Peter?)
That's what I called my mom, yeah. But I didn't know it was Lithuanian.
Kids don't say that in English?
'Mama' (with the stress on the second syllable) is rare in English today.
It seems to have been more popular in the nineteenth century, at least among
the upper classes. I suspect this was a borrowing from French. (I suspect
its usage in German and Russian -- and Lithuanian -- is also influenced by
French.)

'Momma' is reasonably common today in America I believe Seems likely to me
it's borrowed from southern European languages, in particular Italian
'mamma'.

However the unmarked word used by most English-speaking kids is 'mum' (spelt
'mom' in America, with almost identical pronunciation), together with its
diminutive form 'mummy/mommy'.

John.
Peter T. Daniels
2004-07-16 03:05:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Atkinson
However the unmarked word used by most English-speaking kids is 'mum' (spelt
'mom' in America, with almost identical pronunciation), together with its
diminutive form 'mummy/mommy'.
If <mum> is pronounced [mam], why is it spelled <mum>?
--
Peter T. Daniels ***@att.net
John Atkinson
2004-07-16 03:56:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by John Atkinson
However the unmarked word used by most English-speaking kids is 'mum' (spelt
'mom' in America, with almost identical pronunciation), together with its
diminutive form 'mummy/mommy'.
If <mum> is pronounced [mam], why is it spelled <mum>?
Because, if it was spelt <mam>, it'd be pronounced [m&m]. And, if it was
spelt <ma'am>, it'd be pronounced [ma:m].

"Almost identical" was an exaggeration, of course. The American "mother"
word is [ma:m], the (southern) British is [mam] -- to my ear, differing
significantly in length but in nothing else.

John.
Brian M. Scott
2004-07-16 04:34:54 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 03:56:33 GMT "John Atkinson"
Post by John Atkinson
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by John Atkinson
However the unmarked word used by most English-speaking
kids is 'mum' (spelt 'mom' in America, with almost
identical pronunciation), together with its diminutive
form 'mummy/mommy'.
If <mum> is pronounced [mam], why is it spelled <mum>?
Because, if it was spelt <mam>, it'd be pronounced [m&m].
And, if it was spelt <ma'am>, it'd be pronounced [ma:m].
"Almost identical" was an exaggeration, of course. The
American "mother" word is [ma:m],
Further back, though probably not quite [mA:m].
Post by John Atkinson
the (southern) British is [mam] -- to my ear, differing
significantly in length but in nothing else.
And since /V/ verges on [a] in some sourthern varieties --
Crystal mentions Cockney in particular -- <mum> is a
reasonable enough spelling. In other varieties it's between
[a] and [A], which would make it very close in quality to
the U.S. <mom> vowel.

Brian
John Atkinson
2004-07-17 00:20:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian M. Scott
Post by John Atkinson
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by John Atkinson
However the unmarked word used by most English-speaking
kids is 'mum' (spelt 'mom' in America, with almost
identical pronunciation), together with its diminutive
form 'mummy/mommy'.
If <mum> is pronounced [mam], why is it spelled <mum>?
Because, if it was spelt <mam>, it'd be pronounced [m&m].
And, if it was spelt <ma'am>, it'd be pronounced [ma:m].
"Almost identical" was an exaggeration, of course. The
American "mother" word is [ma:m],
Further back, though probably not quite [mA:m].
Post by John Atkinson
the (southern) British is [mam] -- to my ear, differing
significantly in length but in nothing else.
And since /V/ verges on [a] in some sourthern varieties --
Crystal mentions Cockney in particular -- <mum> is a
reasonable enough spelling.
Of course. It's the same phoneme as in <up>, <dumb>, etc.
Post by Brian M. Scott
In other varieties it's between
[a] and [A], which would make it very close in quality to
the U.S. <mom> vowel.
Mine is a southern variety of course.

According to Trudgill and Hammer, Australian <putt> is a somewhat fronted
[V''] , while <bard> is a fronted [a:]. However, in my speech, I can't
detect any difference at all except length. (Cf RP, which -- they say --
has unfronted [V''] and {A:}respectively.)

John.

John Atkinson
2004-07-14 03:00:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marc Adler
Does anyone know if this is the correct/natural Lithuanian way of saying
"Grandma" (a familiar way for a grandchild to call his grandmother)?
I've heard moc^iute (I've also seen this spelled moc^ute) in this situation.
My Lithuanian text gives only senele for grandmother. My dictionary gives
senele, moc^iute, bobute (in that order). In all these, the nominative and
vocative are almost the same, except that the N ends in dotted e, the V in
ordinary e.
Post by Marc Adler
Also, where does the accent fall? BObute? boBUte? bobuTE?
For feminine nouns with N sing ending in e dot the regular accentation is:
Last syllable in the NGILV sing and GDIL pl. First syllable in DA sing and
NAV pl

John.
Deranged Personality Splinter
2004-07-14 18:33:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Atkinson
My Lithuanian text gives only senele for grandmother.
Am I wrong in assuming that this word is a cognate with senile?
Post by John Atkinson
Last syllable in the NGILV sing and GDIL pl. First syllable in DA sing and
NAV pl
So it would be bobuTE?
--
Maar God weet, dat, ten dage |
als gij daarvan eet, zo zullen | Marc Adler |------
uw ogen geopend worden, en gij | /
zult als God wezen, kennende het | ------| ***@gmail.com
goed en het kwaad. - Genesis 3:5 |
Peter T. Daniels
2004-07-14 20:58:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Deranged Personality Splinter
Post by John Atkinson
My Lithuanian text gives only senele for grandmother.
Am I wrong in assuming that this word is a cognate with senile?
It seems rather unlikely, considering the source of the English word.
--
Peter T. Daniels ***@att.net
Brian M. Scott
2004-07-14 21:19:48 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 20:58:35 GMT "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Deranged Personality Splinter
Post by John Atkinson
My Lithuanian text gives only senele for grandmother.
Am I wrong in assuming that this word is a cognate with senile?
It seems rather unlikely, considering the source of the English word.
Buck doesn't have <senele> 'grandmother', but he has
<senelis> 'grandfather'; he says that it's from <senes>
'old', so presumably at least sharing the 'old' root with
<senile>.

Brian
Peter T. Daniels
2004-07-14 21:27:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian M. Scott
On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 20:58:35 GMT "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Deranged Personality Splinter
Post by John Atkinson
My Lithuanian text gives only senele for grandmother.
Am I wrong in assuming that this word is a cognate with senile?
It seems rather unlikely, considering the source of the English word.
Buck doesn't have <senele> 'grandmother', but he has
<senelis> 'grandfather'; he says that it's from <senes>
'old', so presumably at least sharing the 'old' root with
<senile>.
Different *l, no?
--
Peter T. Daniels ***@att.net
Brian M. Scott
2004-07-14 22:16:41 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 21:27:49 GMT "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Brian M. Scott
On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 20:58:35 GMT "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Deranged Personality Splinter
Post by John Atkinson
My Lithuanian text gives only senele for grandmother.
Am I wrong in assuming that this word is a cognate with senile?
It seems rather unlikely, considering the source of the English word.
Buck doesn't have <senele> 'grandmother', but he has
<senelis> 'grandfather'; he says that it's from <senes>
'old', so presumably at least sharing the 'old' root with
<senile>.
Different *l, no?
'L if I no. Seriously I'd not want to bet either way.

Brian
Miguel Carrasquer
2004-07-15 15:57:34 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 21:27:49 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Brian M. Scott
On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 20:58:35 GMT "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Deranged Personality Splinter
Post by John Atkinson
My Lithuanian text gives only senele for grandmother.
Am I wrong in assuming that this word is a cognate with senile?
It seems rather unlikely, considering the source of the English word.
Buck doesn't have <senele> 'grandmother', but he has
<senelis> 'grandfather'; he says that it's from <senes>
'old', so presumably at least sharing the 'old' root with
<senile>.
Different *l, no?
Lith. /l/ and Latin /l/ both come from PIE *l, so it's the
same *l. Latin seni:lis is an adjective, and Lithuanian
senelis/senele:/seneliai are also adjectival in origin
(except that masculine *-is is a *jo-stem here, not an
*i-stem, but that may be secondary). The main difference is
Latin /i:/ vs. Lithuanian /e/ in the second syllable.
Apparently, Latin seni:lis was shaped after iuueni:lis.


=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
***@wxs.nl
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