Discussion:
arrival of blue in other languages
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retrosorter
2018-10-03 13:59:03 UTC
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Unlike other common colours that go back to Old English, blue only appears in English circa 1300. When do we see the appearance of the blue in other languages? Thank you.
Christian Weisgerber
2018-10-03 15:49:47 UTC
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Post by retrosorter
Unlike other common colours that go back to Old English, blue only appears in English circa 1300. When do we see the appearance of the blue in other languages? Thank you.
Are you talking about the color or the word?

Old High German "blāo", 'color similar to the cloudless sky', is
attested from the 8th century. The color value is originally not
well defined; in OHG it occasionally still represents Latin flāvus
'yellow'. Only in Middle High German (1050-1350) is the color more
strictly delimited. Modern German "blau".

Cognates also appear in Old Saxon ("blāo") and Old Norse ("blār").

In French, "bleu" is first attested ca. 1121 (as "blef"). The
French word is from Germanic. A Late Latin form "blavus" is cited
in the 6th century by Isidore.

The Germanic word seems unattested in English until the French form
is borrowed circa 1300.

[Sources: DWDS, TLFi]
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber ***@mips.inka.de
Ruud Harmsen
2018-10-03 17:47:40 UTC
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Wed, 3 Oct 2018 15:49:47 -0000 (UTC): Christian Weisgerber
Post by Christian Weisgerber
The Germanic word seems unattested in English until the French form
is borrowed circa 1300.
Wiktionary says no.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-10-03 18:38:18 UTC
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Post by Ruud Harmsen
Wed, 3 Oct 2018 15:49:47 -0000 (UTC): Christian Weisgerber
Post by Christian Weisgerber
The Germanic word seems unattested in English until the French form
is borrowed circa 1300.
Wiktionary says no.
Hmm. Getting such information from Wiktionary is only about one step up
from getting information about Finnish from Daud.
--
athel
Christian Weisgerber
2018-10-03 21:44:08 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Post by Christian Weisgerber
The Germanic word seems unattested in English until the French form
is borrowed circa 1300.
Wiktionary says no.
Hmm. Getting such information from Wiktionary is only about one step up
from getting information about Finnish from Daud.
Well, it says:

From Middle English blewe, partially from Old English *blǣw
("blue"; found in derivative blǣwen (“bluish”)); and partially
from Anglo-Norman blew, blef (“blue”),

That is at least plausible.
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber ***@mips.inka.de
Arnaud Fournet
2018-10-04 07:51:11 UTC
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Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Post by Christian Weisgerber
The Germanic word seems unattested in English until the French form
is borrowed circa 1300.
Wiktionary says no.
Hmm. Getting such information from Wiktionary is only about one step up
from getting information about Finnish from Daud.
From Middle English blewe, partially from Old English *blǣw
("blue"; found in derivative blǣwen (“bluish”)); and partially
from Anglo-Norman blew, blef (“blue”),
That is at least plausible.
English blue [blu:] is closer to Northern French bleu (m), bleu-ce (f)
The influence of Northern French on English phonetics is IMO underestimated.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-04 11:34:42 UTC
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Post by Arnaud Fournet
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Post by Christian Weisgerber
The Germanic word seems unattested in English until the French form
is borrowed circa 1300.
Wiktionary says no.
Hmm. Getting such information from Wiktionary is only about one step up
from getting information about Finnish from Daud.
From Middle English blewe, partially from Old English *blǣw
("blue"; found in derivative blǣwen (“bluish”)); and partially
from Anglo-Norman blew, blef (“blue”),
That is at least plausible.
English blue [blu:] is closer to Northern French bleu (m), bleu-ce (f)
The influence of Northern French on English phonetics is IMO underestimated.
What, then, is Anglo-Norman?
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-03 18:55:57 UTC
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Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by retrosorter
Unlike other common colours that go back to Old English, blue only appears in English circa 1300. When do we see the appearance of the blue in other languages? Thank you.
Are you talking about the color or the word?
Old High German "blāo", 'color similar to the cloudless sky', is
attested from the 8th century. The color value is originally not
well defined; in OHG it occasionally still represents Latin flāvus
'yellow'. Only in Middle High German (1050-1350) is the color more
strictly delimited. Modern German "blau".
Cognates also appear in Old Saxon ("blāo") and Old Norse ("blār").
In French, "bleu" is first attested ca. 1121 (as "blef"). The
French word is from Germanic. A Late Latin form "blavus" is cited
in the 6th century by Isidore.
The Germanic word seems unattested in English until the French form
is borrowed circa 1300.
[Sources: DWDS, TLFi]
Guy Deutscher, taking a cue from Gladstone's work on Homer, investigated the
color blue. He found that many peoples, like Homer, have no name for the color
of the sky (which is fairly rare in nature); he experimented on his daughter
-- presumably the same one he promoted as a Mozart-like piano and composition prodigy -- and found that she wouldn't assign any color at all to the sky until
quite late in her linguistic development.

Those two aspects of his story are told in an episode of the radio series
*RadioLab*, and it's also treated in one or another of his books on linguistics
for the general reader.

(*RadioLab* did an hour on color; the program has been broadcast several times
and is presumably available for download, or at least streaming.)
Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
2018-10-03 19:21:06 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by retrosorter
Unlike other common colours that go back to Old English, blue only appears in English circa 1300. When do we see the appearance of the blue in other languages? Thank you.
Are you talking about the color or the word?
Old High German "blāo", 'color similar to the cloudless sky', is
attested from the 8th century. The color value is originally not
well defined; in OHG it occasionally still represents Latin flāvus
'yellow'. Only in Middle High German (1050-1350) is the color more
strictly delimited. Modern German "blau".
Cognates also appear in Old Saxon ("blāo") and Old Norse ("blār").
In French, "bleu" is first attested ca. 1121 (as "blef"). The
French word is from Germanic. A Late Latin form "blavus" is cited
in the 6th century by Isidore.
The Germanic word seems unattested in English until the French form
is borrowed circa 1300.
[Sources: DWDS, TLFi]
Guy Deutscher, taking a cue from Gladstone's work on Homer, investigated the
color blue. He found that many peoples, like Homer, have no name for the color
of the sky (which is fairly rare in nature); he experimented on his daughter
-- presumably the same one he promoted as a Mozart-like piano and composition prodigy -- and found that she wouldn't assign any color at all to the sky until
quite late in her linguistic development.
Incidentally, the Modern Greek adjective for blue is μπλε (mple, pronounced as [ble]), which is obviously a recent French loan.
Ruud Harmsen
2018-10-04 06:59:31 UTC
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Wed, 3 Oct 2018 12:21:06 -0700 (PDT): M?cis?aw Wojna-Bojewski
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by retrosorter
Unlike other common colours that go back to Old English, blue only appears in English circa 1300. When do we see the appearance of the blue in other languages? Thank you.
Are you talking about the color or the word?
Old High German "bl?o", 'color similar to the cloudless sky', is
attested from the 8th century. The color value is originally not
well defined; in OHG it occasionally still represents Latin fl?vus
'yellow'. Only in Middle High German (1050-1350) is the color more
strictly delimited. Modern German "blau".
Cognates also appear in Old Saxon ("bl?o") and Old Norse ("bl?r").
In French, "bleu" is first attested ca. 1121 (as "blef"). The
French word is from Germanic. A Late Latin form "blavus" is cited
in the 6th century by Isidore.
The Germanic word seems unattested in English until the French form
is borrowed circa 1300.
[Sources: DWDS, TLFi]
Guy Deutscher, taking a cue from Gladstone's work on Homer, investigated the
color blue. He found that many peoples, like Homer, have no name for the color
of the sky (which is fairly rare in nature); he experimented on his daughter
-- presumably the same one he promoted as a Mozart-like piano and composition prodigy -- and found that she wouldn't assign any color at all to the sky until
quite late in her linguistic development.
Incidentally, the Modern Greek adjective for blue is ???? (mple, pronounced as [ble]), which is obviously a recent French loan.
The blue sky.
The blue sea.
GT:
O galázios ouranós.
H galázia thálassa.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B3%CE%B1%CE%BB%CE%AC%CE%B6%CE%B9%CE%BF%CF%82
(No etymology given.)
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Ruud Harmsen
2018-10-04 07:02:11 UTC
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Post by Ruud Harmsen
Incidentally, the Modern Greek adjective for blue is ???? (mple, pronounced as [ble]), which is obviously a recent French loan.
The blue sky.
The blue sea.
O galázios ouranós.
H galázia thálassa.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B3%CE%B1%CE%BB%CE%AC%CE%B6%CE%B9%CE%BF%CF%82
(No etymology given.)
https://el.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B3%CE%B1%CE%BB%CE%AC%CE%B6%CE%B9%CE%BF%CF%82

https://el.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CE%AC%CE%BB%CE%B1%CF%8A%CF%82
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
António Marques
2018-10-04 12:02:23 UTC
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Post by Ruud Harmsen
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Incidentally, the Modern Greek adjective for blue is ???? (mple,
pronounced as [ble]), which is obviously a recent French loan.
The blue sky.
The blue sea.
O galázios ouranós.
H galázia thálassa.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B3%CE%B1%CE%BB%CE%AC%CE%B6%CE%B9%CE%BF%CF%82
(No etymology given.)
https://el.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B3%CE%B1%CE%BB%CE%AC%CE%B6%CE%B9%CE%BF%CF%82
https://el.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CE%AC%CE%BB%CE%B1%CF%8A%CF%82
Not related to γλαυκός or Celtic _glas_ for that matter?
Ruud Harmsen
2018-10-04 18:23:20 UTC
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Post by António Marques
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Incidentally, the Modern Greek adjective for blue is ???? (mple,
pronounced as [ble]), which is obviously a recent French loan.
The blue sky.
The blue sea.
O galázios ouranós.
H galázia thálassa.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B3%CE%B1%CE%BB%CE%AC%CE%B6%CE%B9%CE%BF%CF%82
(No etymology given.)
https://el.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B3%CE%B1%CE%BB%CE%AC%CE%B6%CE%B9%CE%BF%CF%82
https://el.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CE%AC%CE%BB%CE%B1%CF%8A%CF%82
Not related to γλαυκός or Celtic _glas_ for that matter?
Glaukos is one of the suggested sources of [es] loco / [pt] louco, I happened to discover this afternoon. But it's more likely from Arabic lawqa.
Daud Deden
2018-10-04 20:42:02 UTC
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Post by Ruud Harmsen
Post by António Marques
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Incidentally, the Modern Greek adjective for blue is ???? (mple,
pronounced as [ble]), which is obviously a recent French loan.
The blue sky.
The blue sea.
O galázios ouranós.
H galázia thálassa.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B3%CE%B1%CE%BB%CE%AC%CE%B6%CE%B9%CE%BF%CF%82
(No etymology given.)
https://el.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B3%CE%B1%CE%BB%CE%AC%CE%B6%CE%B9%CE%BF%CF%82
https://el.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CE%AC%CE%BB%CE%B1%CF%8A%CF%82
Not related to γλαυκός or Celtic _glas_ for that matter?
Glaukos is one of the suggested sources of [es] loco / [pt] louco, I happened to discover this afternoon. But it's more likely from Arabic lawqa.
***@Grk: white leche/bleche/
galact/leaky/lick/milky whey
Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
2018-10-04 09:39:22 UTC
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Post by Ruud Harmsen
Wed, 3 Oct 2018 12:21:06 -0700 (PDT): M?cis?aw Wojna-Bojewski
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by retrosorter
Unlike other common colours that go back to Old English, blue only appears in English circa 1300. When do we see the appearance of the blue in other languages? Thank you.
Are you talking about the color or the word?
Old High German "bl?o", 'color similar to the cloudless sky', is
attested from the 8th century. The color value is originally not
well defined; in OHG it occasionally still represents Latin fl?vus
'yellow'. Only in Middle High German (1050-1350) is the color more
strictly delimited. Modern German "blau".
Cognates also appear in Old Saxon ("bl?o") and Old Norse ("bl?r").
In French, "bleu" is first attested ca. 1121 (as "blef"). The
French word is from Germanic. A Late Latin form "blavus" is cited
in the 6th century by Isidore.
The Germanic word seems unattested in English until the French form
is borrowed circa 1300.
[Sources: DWDS, TLFi]
Guy Deutscher, taking a cue from Gladstone's work on Homer, investigated the
color blue. He found that many peoples, like Homer, have no name for the color
of the sky (which is fairly rare in nature); he experimented on his daughter
-- presumably the same one he promoted as a Mozart-like piano and composition prodigy -- and found that she wouldn't assign any color at all to the sky until
quite late in her linguistic development.
Incidentally, the Modern Greek adjective for blue is ???? (mple, pronounced as [ble]), which is obviously a recent French loan.
The blue sky.
The blue sea.
O galázios ouranós.
H galázia thálassa.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B3%CE%B1%CE%BB%CE%AC%CE%B6%CE%B9%CE%BF%CF%82
(No etymology given.)
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Galázios too, but the first word the student is taught is mple.
Ruud Harmsen
2018-10-03 17:46:33 UTC
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Post by retrosorter
Unlike other common colours that go back to Old English, blue only appears in English circa 1300. When do we see the appearance of the blue in other languages? Thank you.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/blauw#Etymology
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/bl%C4%93waz
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/bl%C4%93waz#Descendants
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/blow#English
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/blue#Etymology_1

French bleu is of Germanic origin:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bleu#Etymology

The Modern English word is a mix:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/blewe#Middle_English
Yusuf B Gursey
2018-10-03 20:31:00 UTC
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Post by retrosorter
Unlike other common colours that go back to Old English, blue only appears in English circa 1300. When do we see the appearance of the blue in other languages? Thank you.
Blue is one of the oldest attested words in Old Turkic, 7th cent. This word, synoymous with "sky" is used in Modern Turkish now only in poetic contexts and in rural dialects, replaced fairly recently with a word based on the Arabic word for "water.
Daud Deden
2018-10-04 09:55:02 UTC
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Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by retrosorter
Unlike other common colours that go back to Old English, blue only appears in English circa 1300. When do we see the appearance of the blue in other languages? Thank you.
Blue is one of the oldest attested words in Old Turkic, 7th cent. This word, synoymous with "sky" is used in Modern Turkish now only in poetic contexts and in rural dialects, replaced fairly recently with a word based on the Arabic word for "water.
Cyan & Eau = Sky & wa: o & cean
Cheyenne/Tian/Teng-r, Zion/Thiop

Not much blue inside the tropical rainforest.

Biru/Azul/blau/blue/bleu~ flow?
Daud Deden
2018-10-04 10:19:30 UTC
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Post by Daud Deden
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by retrosorter
Unlike other common colours that go back to Old English, blue only appears in English circa 1300. When do we see the appearance of the blue in other languages? Thank you.
Blue is one of the oldest attested words in Old Turkic, 7th cent. This word, synoymous with "sky" is used in Modern Turkish now only in poetic contexts and in rural dialects, replaced fairly recently with a word based on the Arabic word for "water.
Cyan & Eau = Sky & wa: o & cean
Cheyenne/Tian/Teng-r, Zion/Thiop
Not much blue inside the tropical rainforest.
Biru/Azul/blau/blue/bleu~ flow?
Elohi, Elija
ilu, ilaah
Leaven, heaven
Lift, heft
Light, height
Elevate, libra.te(sun-moon equilibrium)
High/low

***@Aztec: Sky, heaven. ilhuicac.- At the sky, at heaven.
Daud Deden
2018-10-04 12:53:44 UTC
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Post by Daud Deden
Post by Daud Deden
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by retrosorter
Unlike other common colours that go back to Old English, blue only appears in English circa 1300. When do we see the appearance of the blue in other languages? Thank you.
Blue is one of the oldest attested words in Old Turkic, 7th cent. This word, synoymous with "sky" is used in Modern Turkish now only in poetic contexts and in rural dialects, replaced fairly recently with a word based on the Arabic word for "water.
Cyan & Eau = Sky & wa: o & cean
Cheyenne/Tian/Teng-r, Zion/Thiop
Not much blue inside the tropical rainforest.
Biru/Azul/blau/blue/bleu~ flow?
Elohi, Elija
ilu, ilaah
Leaven, heaven
Lift, heft
Light, height
Elevate, libra.te(sun-moon equilibrium)
High/low
***@AngloNorman ~
Lev, heav, heft, loft, ab(h/l)ove(r)= ilhui.catl
Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
2018-10-10 09:26:59 UTC
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Post by Daud Deden
Post by Daud Deden
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by retrosorter
Unlike other common colours that go back to Old English, blue only appears in English circa 1300. When do we see the appearance of the blue in other languages? Thank you.
Blue is one of the oldest attested words in Old Turkic, 7th cent. This word, synoymous with "sky" is used in Modern Turkish now only in poetic contexts and in rural dialects, replaced fairly recently with a word based on the Arabic word for "water.
Cyan & Eau = Sky & wa: o & cean
Cheyenne/Tian/Teng-r, Zion/Thiop
Not much blue inside the tropical rainforest.
Biru/Azul/blau/blue/bleu~ flow?
Elohi, Elija
ilu, ilaah
Leaven, heaven
Lift, heft
Light, height
Elevate, libra.te(sun-moon equilibrium)
High/low
Laa ilaaha illallaah.
Dr. HotSalt
2018-10-12 05:57:58 UTC
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Post by Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
Post by Daud Deden
Post by Daud Deden
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by retrosorter
Unlike other common colours that go back to Old English, blue only appears in English circa 1300. When do we see the appearance of the blue in other languages? Thank you.
Blue is one of the oldest attested words in Old Turkic, 7th cent. This word, synoymous with "sky" is used in Modern Turkish now only in poetic contexts and in rural dialects, replaced fairly recently with a word based on the Arabic word for "water.
Cyan & Eau = Sky & wa: o & cean
Cheyenne/Tian/Teng-r, Zion/Thiop
Not much blue inside the tropical rainforest.
Biru/Azul/blau/blue/bleu~ flow?
Elohi, Elija
ilu, ilaah
Leaven, heaven
Lift, heft
Light, height
Elevate, libra.te(sun-moon equilibrium)
High/low
Laa ilaaha illallaah.
Now you've done it. Next he will be declaring the Aztecs to have been Arabs.


Dr. HotSalt
António Marques
2018-10-12 12:45:47 UTC
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Post by Dr. HotSalt
Post by Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
Post by Daud Deden
Post by Daud Deden
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by retrosorter
Unlike other common colours that go back to Old English, blue only
appears in English circa 1300. When do we see the appearance of
the blue in other languages? Thank you.
Blue is one of the oldest attested words in Old Turkic, 7th cent.
This word, synoymous with "sky" is used in Modern Turkish now only in
poetic contexts and in rural dialects, replaced fairly recently with
a word based on the Arabic word for "water.
Cyan & Eau = Sky & wa: o & cean
Cheyenne/Tian/Teng-r, Zion/Thiop
Not much blue inside the tropical rainforest.
Biru/Azul/blau/blue/bleu~ flow?
Elohi, Elija
ilu, ilaah
Leaven, heaven
Lift, heft
Light, height
Elevate, libra.te(sun-moon equilibrium)
High/low
Laa ilaaha illallaah.
Now you've done it. Next he will be declaring the Aztecs to have been Arabs.
I’ve never seen anyone saying they weren’t.
Daud Deden
2018-10-12 16:56:18 UTC
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Post by Dr. HotSalt
Post by Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
Post by Daud Deden
Post by Daud Deden
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by retrosorter
Unlike other common colours that go back to Old English, blue only appears in English circa 1300. When do we see the appearance of the blue in other languages? Thank you.
Blue is one of the oldest attested words in Old Turkic, 7th cent. This word, synoymous with "sky" is used in Modern Turkish now only in poetic contexts and in rural dialects, replaced fairly recently with a word based on the Arabic word for "water.
Cyan & Eau = Sky & wa: o & cean
Cheyenne/Tian/Teng-r, Zion/Thiop
Not much blue inside the tropical rainforest.
Biru/Azul/blau/blue/bleu~ flow?
Elohi, Elija
ilu, ilaah
Leaven, heaven
Lift, heft
Light, height
Elevate, libra.te(sun-moon equilibrium)
High/low
Laa ilaaha illallaah.
Now you've done it. Next he will be declaring the Aztecs to have been Arabs.
Dr. HotSalt
Both descend from last common ancestors, in common with other human populations and other fauna.

***@Aztec: sky/heaven
El/ilah/Levi/loft/light/high/heaven/***@Croat: sky/heaven

I don't recall the Arabic word for sky/heaven.
Daud Deden
2018-10-13 03:52:42 UTC
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Post by Daud Deden
Post by Dr. HotSalt
Post by Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
Post by Daud Deden
Post by Daud Deden
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by retrosorter
Unlike other common colours that go back to Old English, blue only appears in English circa 1300. When do we see the appearance of the blue in other languages? Thank you.
Blue is one of the oldest attested words in Old Turkic, 7th cent. This word, synoymous with "sky" is used in Modern Turkish now only in poetic contexts and in rural dialects, replaced fairly recently with a word based on the Arabic word for "water.
Cyan & Eau = Sky & wa: o & cean
Cheyenne/Tian/Teng-r, Zion/Thiop
Not much blue inside the tropical rainforest.
Biru/Azul/blau/blue/bleu~ flow?
Elohi, Elija
ilu, ilaah
Leaven, heaven
Lift, heft
Light, height
Elevate, libra.te(sun-moon equilibrium)
High/low
Laa ilaaha illallaah.
Now you've done it. Next he will be declaring the Aztecs to have been Arabs.
Dr. HotSalt
Both descend from last common ancestors, in common with other human populations and other fauna.
I don't recall the Arabic word for sky/heaven.
I see it claimed as:
Janat, ***@Arb: sky, heaven.

Alsama ~ elxyambuatla ~ ilhui(catl)
Note: Aztec tends to lose -mb-, or change b to p or c.

Janat: Don't know
b***@ihug.co.nz
2018-10-04 21:01:19 UTC
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Post by retrosorter
Unlike other common colours that go back to Old English, blue only appears in English circa 1300. When do we see the appearance of the blue in other languages? Thank you.
Berlin & Kay put "blue" at Stage V

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Color_Terms:_Their_Universality_and_Evolution

But I don't think many people take their evolutionary scheme seriously
anymore.

Languages I work with mostly don't have a "blue" word, unless they've
borrowed it or made it up quite recently to match European colour
categories (e.g. Samoan lanu moana 'sea colour'). I think traditionally
they had a "grue" (blue+green) category.

Or some blues are lumped with black: Blust, for Proto Malayo-Polynesian,
has *ma-qitem 'black, deep blue' and *buluŋ 'dark blue, bluish-black'

Historical semantics of colour terms is very messy.

Fun Fact: A single PIE root (*bhel) is the source of English "black"
and "blue", and also "blond" (from French) as well as French blanc,
Slavic bel- 'white', and Latin flāvus 'golden or reddish yellow'.
(Source: Watkins)
Ruud Harmsen
2018-10-05 07:17:14 UTC
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Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Fun Fact: A single PIE root (*bhel) is the source of English "black"
and "blue", and also "blond" (from French) as well as French blanc,
Slavic bel- 'white', and Latin fl?vus 'golden or reddish yellow'.
(Source: Watkins)
Wiktionary says no:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/black#Etymology
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/blue#Etymology_1
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/blond#Etymology
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/blanc#Etymology_4
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic/b%C4%9Bl%D1%8A

They're all different. The only thing true is that blue and flavus are
cognate.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/flavus#Etymology
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
b***@ihug.co.nz
2018-10-05 11:07:56 UTC
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Post by Ruud Harmsen
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Fun Fact: A single PIE root (*bhel) is the source of English "black"
and "blue", and also "blond" (from French) as well as French blanc,
Slavic bel- 'white', and Latin fl?vus 'golden or reddish yellow'.
(Source: Watkins)
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/black#Etymology
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/blue#Etymology_1
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/blond#Etymology
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/blanc#Etymology_4
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic/b%C4%9Bl%D1%8A
They're all different. The only thing true is that blue and flavus are
cognate.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/flavus#Etymology
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Maybe not as different as you think. From Watkins' point of view, all
the PIE forms cited there are different extensions of the root *bhel.
So he gets, e.g. blind, flagrant, and beluga from the same root.
The Wiktionary etymologists may not agree -- I don't know who they are --
but I think this is a pretty mainstream Indo-Europeanist view.
Doesn't matter that much to me -- having "blue" cognate with Latin for
"yellow" is enough to make my point that colour terms are a slippery lot.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-05 11:42:15 UTC
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Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Maybe not as different as you think. From Watkins' point of view, all
the PIE forms cited there are different extensions of the root *bhel.
So he gets, e.g. blind, flagrant, and beluga from the same root.
The Wiktionary etymologists may not agree -- I don't know who they are --
but I think this is a pretty mainstream Indo-Europeanist view.
Doesn't matter that much to me -- having "blue" cognate with Latin for
"yellow" is enough to make my point that colour terms are a slippery lot.
Cal Watkins _was_ mainstream Indo-Europeanism.
Christian Weisgerber
2018-10-05 14:48:56 UTC
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Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Fun Fact: A single PIE root (*bhel) is the source of English "black"
and "blue", and also "blond" (from French) as well as French blanc,
Slavic bel- 'white', and Latin fl?vus 'golden or reddish yellow'.
(Source: Watkins)
I think at this point we need to mention that IE etymology contains
a certain amount of conjecture, speculation, and debate. If you
look up different sources, you'll find various contradictory claims.
Care should be taken before pronouncing any one of them to be the
singular truth.
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber ***@mips.inka.de
Christian Weisgerber
2018-10-05 14:36:19 UTC
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Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Fun Fact: A single PIE root (*bhel) is the source of English "black"
and "blue", and also "blond" (from French) as well as French blanc,
French "blanc" is also from Germanic. And "blond" is assumed to
be from Germanic as well, despite not being attested there, since
so many Romance color words have come that way and because blondness
was a stereotypically Germanic feature.

So we might have _four_ color words from the same root even within
Germanic.
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber ***@mips.inka.de
Daud Deden
2018-10-06 01:44:29 UTC
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Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Fun Fact: A single PIE root (*bhel) is the source of English "black"
and "blue", and also "blond" (from French) as well as French blanc,
French "blanc" is also from Germanic. And "blond" is assumed to
be from Germanic as well, despite not being attested there, since
so many Romance color words have come that way and because blondness
was a stereotypically Germanic feature.
So we might have _four_ color words from the same root even within
Germanic.
--
This is mere conjecture, but I think the BL- derived from the PeeLs/PeLts of the (swollen/maBuL/amPLe) rainbow, named by people who lived in wide-open country. A rainbow has no black or white, but the color notion may have stemmed from that, as much as milk & cloudy/clotted skies, and fertile soil.
l***@gmail.com
2018-10-09 19:24:54 UTC
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Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Fun Fact: A single PIE root (*bhel) is the source of English "black"
and "blue", and also "blond" (from French) as well as French blanc,
French "blanc" is also from Germanic. And "blond" is assumed to
be from Germanic as well, despite not being attested there, since
so many Romance color words have come that way and because blondness
was a stereotypically Germanic feature.
So we might have _four_ color words from the same root even within
Germanic. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber
Wang-Chak Chak ("Human aquatic color vision" p.173-180 in Vaneechoutte cs eds 2011 "Was Man more aquatic in the past?" Bentham, google e.g. "chan vaneechoutte color aquatic"), discussing color names in Chinese & other languages, says our littoral past might have influenced color names: with (sun) & without (water) bright colors.
Several bl- words in Germanic seem to mean "without color": blind, blond, black, blue, bleak, blend, bleek, blank... (but not: blood).

Many Romance languages (except Rumanian "alb" white) borrowed the Germanic words "blond" & "blank".
French got several Franconian color names: blond, blanc, bleu, gris, brun.
Daud Deden
2018-10-09 22:01:58 UTC
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Post by l***@gmail.com
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Fun Fact: A single PIE root (*bhel) is the source of English "black"
and "blue", and also "blond" (from French) as well as French blanc,
French "blanc" is also from Germanic. And "blond" is assumed to
be from Germanic as well, despite not being attested there, since
so many Romance color words have come that way and because blondness
was a stereotypically Germanic feature.
So we might have _four_ color words from the same root even within
Germanic. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber
Wang-Chak Chak ("Human aquatic color vision" p.173-180 in Vaneechoutte cs eds 2011 "Was Man more aquatic in the past?" Bentham, google e.g. "chan vaneechoutte color aquatic"), discussing color names in Chinese & other languages, says our littoral past might have influenced color names: with (sun) & without (water) bright colors.
Several bl- words in Germanic seem to mean "without color": blind, blond, black, blue, bleak, blend, bleek, blank... (but not: blood).
Many Romance languages (except Rumanian "alb" white) borrowed the Germanic words "blond" & "blank".
French got several Franconian color names: blond, blanc, bleu, gris, brun.
not "without color" IMO, rather "without clotting/clouding/coagulating", ie. transparent or translucent, such as a flowing stream, or bloodstream, or breezy blue-sky clear day. It is the divider of water/blood and milk/mud.
wugi
2018-10-10 09:07:31 UTC
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Post by l***@gmail.com
Wang-Chak Chak ("Human aquatic color vision" p.173-180 in
Vaneechoutte cs eds 2011 "Was Man more aquatic in the past?" Bentham,
google e.g. "chan vaneechoutte color aquatic"), discussing color
names in Chinese & other languages, says our littoral past might have
influenced color names: with (sun) & without (water) bright colors.
Several bl- words in Germanic seem to mean "without color": blind,
blond, black, blue, bleak, blend, bleek, blank... (but not: blood).
Not only blood: blush, bloom (D. blad, bloeien, bloem; blos, blozen,
blij, blaken)
Others seem to discribe color strength or "whitishness": blink, blind,
blend (D. blik, blijken, bliksem, blinken, blind, bliek, blei, blaar, bles).
--
guido wugi
Yusuf B Gursey
2018-10-16 20:05:13 UTC
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Post by retrosorter
Unlike other common colours that go back to Old English, blue only appears in English circa 1300. When do we see the appearance of the blue in other languages? Thank you.
zurq "blue (plural)" is attested in the Quran.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-16 20:45:01 UTC
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Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by retrosorter
Unlike other common colours that go back to Old English, blue only appears in English circa 1300. When do we see the appearance of the blue in other languages? Thank you.
zurq "blue (plural)" is attested in the Quran.
Which looks suspiciously like English "zircon."

M-W just says [G] 1794.
Ruud Harmsen
2018-10-17 05:36:58 UTC
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Tue, 16 Oct 2018 13:45:01 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by retrosorter
Unlike other common colours that go back to Old English, blue only appears in English circa 1300. When do we see the appearance of the blue in other languages? Thank you.
zurq "blue (plural)" is attested in the Quran.
Which looks suspiciously like English "zircon."
M-W just says [G] 1794.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/zircon#Etymology
From German Zirkon, possibly via French zircon, from Arabic ?????????
(zarqun, “cinnabar, bright red”), from Persian ?????? (zargun) /
?????? (zaryun), from Middle Persian ??????????? (zargon).

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D8%A3%D8%B2%D8%B1%D9%82#Etymology_1
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D8%B2_%D8%B1_%D9%82#Arabic

So they're not related.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Christian Weisgerber
2018-10-17 14:40:03 UTC
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Post by Ruud Harmsen
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
zurq "blue (plural)" is attested in the Quran.
Which looks suspiciously like English "zircon."
M-W just says [G] 1794.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/zircon#Etymology
From German Zirkon, possibly via French zircon, from Arabic ?????????
(zarqun, “cinnabar, bright red”), from Persian ?????? (zargun) /
?????? (zaryun), from Middle Persian ??????????? (zargon).
Etymonline:
1794, _circon_, also _jargon_, new name given in chemistry to
_jacinth_, from German _Zirkon_ (Klaproth, 1789), which probably
is from 18c. French _jargon_, a vague mineral word used of
high-quality

Neither Pfeifer nor Kluge have an entry for _Zirkon_.

TLFi on _jargon_:
Empr. à l'ital. _giargone_ « variété de diamant » attesté dep.
le XIVe s., de même orig. que l'a. fr. _jacunce_, _jargunce_
« pierre précieuse », v. _jacinthe_ et _hyacinthe_.

TLFi on _jacinthe_:
Empr. au lat. _hyacinthus_ « plante à bulbe, glaïeul; sorte
d'améthyste », gr. ὑάκινθος avec j- initial d'apr. _jagonce_,
_jacunces_ « pierre précieuse », formes plus usitées au Moy. Âge,
empr. au syrien _jaqunta_ lui-même empr. au gr. ὑάκινθος.

TLFi on _zircon_:
Empr. à l'all. _Zirkon_, créé en 1783 par le minéralogiste all.
A. G. Werner et repris par M. H. Klaproth en 1789. La formation
de l'all. Zirkon reste obsc.
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber ***@mips.inka.de
Christian Weisgerber
2018-10-17 20:42:31 UTC
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Post by Ruud Harmsen
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
zurq "blue (plural)" is attested in the Quran.
Which looks suspiciously like English "zircon."
M-W just says [G] 1794.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/zircon#Etymology
From German Zirkon, possibly via French zircon, from Arabic ?????????
(zarqun, “cinnabar, bright red”), from Persian ?????? (zargun) /
?????? (zaryun), from Middle Persian ??????????? (zargon).
Etymonline:
1794, _circon_, also _jargon_, new name given in chemistry to
_jacinth_, from German _Zirkon_ (Klaproth, 1789), which probably
is from 18c. French _jargon_, a vague mineral word used of
high-quality diamond-like gemstones; it has been traced to Medieval
Latin jargonce, which is of uncertain origin. Compare Italian
giargone, from the same source.

Neither Pfeifer nor Kluge have an entry for _Zirkon_.

TLFi on _jargon_:
Empr. à l'ital. _giargone_ « variété de diamant » attesté dep.
le XIVe s., de même orig. que l'a. fr. _jacunce_, _jargunce_
« pierre précieuse », v. _jacinthe_ et _hyacinthe_.

TLFi on _jacinthe_:
Empr. au lat. _hyacinthus_ « plante à bulbe, glaïeul; sorte
d'améthyste », gr. ὑάκινθος avec j- initial d'apr. _jagonce_,
_jacunces_ « pierre précieuse », formes plus usitées au Moy. Âge,
empr. au syrien _jaqunta_ lui-même empr. au gr. ὑάκινθος.

TLFi on _zircon_:
Empr. à l'all. _Zirkon_, créé en 1783 par le minéralogiste all.
A. G. Werner et repris par M. H. Klaproth en 1789. La formation
de l'all. Zirkon reste obsc.
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber ***@mips.inka.de
Yusuf B Gursey
2018-10-18 10:49:33 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by retrosorter
Unlike other common colours that go back to Old English, blue only appears in English circa 1300. When do we see the appearance of the blue in other languages? Thank you.
zurq "blue (plural)" is attested in the Quran.
Which looks suspiciously like English "zircon."
M-W just says [G] 1794.
Evidently from Persian zar 'gold, yellow'. Huh, Zergün is a fairly common girl's name in Turkish. I knew it had something to do with gold, yellow but now I know more specifically
Daud Deden
2018-10-16 23:14:04 UTC
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Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by retrosorter
Unlike other common colours that go back to Old English, blue only appears in English circa 1300. When do we see the appearance of the blue in other languages? Thank you.
zurq "blue (plural)" is attested in the Quran.
Zurq ~ Azul ~ Odol ~ blood(in veins).
Spilled blood is red.
Yusuf B Gursey
2018-10-18 11:27:01 UTC
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On Wednesday, October 3, 2018 at 9:59:04 AM UTC-4, retrosorter wrote:

Modern Turkish and Modern Persian use mavi (based on Arabic mā') and ābī (based on Persian āb) for 'blue' which are recent replacements based on 'water' for earlier gök and kabūd respectively. gök < gö:k, kö:k go back to the earliest Turkic texts. In Runic Turkic kö:k is exclusively 'blue' but in most Turkic languages refers to 'sky' as well. In Modern Turkish it is used exclusively for 'sky' except in dialects and poetry.
Mongolian köke is blue in the earliest Middle Mongolian texts, which are the earliest full and readable texts. There are indications that it was used for 'sky' as well, in a profane sense. I don't know about Qitan (Qitañ) language, related recently deciphered language of the early medieval period, used by the Liao dynasty in China (hence 'Cathayl)
Post by retrosorter
Unlike other common colours that go back to Old English, blue only appears in English circa 1300. When do we see the appearance of the blue in other languages? Thank you.
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