De-Nigorization in Japanese company names

[Joachim Pense]

The Yamaha company was founded by someone called Yamaba.
The Toyota company was founded by someone called Toyoda.

Note that in Japanese compounds, the initial consonant of the second
component is often softened: h becomes b, k becomes g, and t becomes d.
(That's called "nigorization" by western Japanologists, from "Nigori" 'two
dashes', the diacritical in kana that expresses the softening)

So "Yamaba" is the standard way to build a compound out of "yama" and "ha",
and "Toyoda" of "toyo" and "ta".

So why did they drop the nigori for their company names?

Joachim

[Tak To]

Joachim Pense wrote:
> The Yamaha company was founded by someone called Yamaba.
> The Toyota company was founded by someone called Toyoda.
>
> Note that in Japanese compounds, the initial consonant of the second
> component is often softened: h becomes b, k becomes g, and t becomes d.
> (That's called "nigorization" by western Japanologists, from "Nigori" 'two
> dashes', the diacritical in kana that expresses the softening)

Nigori, meaning "muddy", refers to the voicing phenomenon. The
diacritical mark itself is called niogri-ten (~ "point")
or dakuten.

> So "Yamaba" is the standard way to build a compound out of "yama" and "ha",
> and "Toyoda" of "toyo" and "ta".
>
> So why did they drop the nigori for their company names?

I have been wondering about it myself. Perhaps they think
that the devoiced spelling is more "Western" or "modern".

Note that the company name is always written in katagana
and never in Kanji. It seems that they consider the company
name to be entirely separated from the original family name.

Tak
--
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr

[Joachim Pense]

Tak To (in sci.lang):

> Joachim Pense wrote:
>> The Yamaha company was founded by someone called Yamaba.
>> The Toyota company was founded by someone called Toyoda.
>>
>> Note that in Japanese compounds, the initial consonant of the second
>> component is often softened: h becomes b, k becomes g, and t becomes d.
>> (That's called "nigorization" by western Japanologists, from "Nigori"
>> 'two dashes', the diacritical in kana that expresses the softening)
>
> Nigori, meaning "muddy", refers to the voicing phenomenon. The
> diacritical mark itself is called niogri-ten (~ "point")
> or dakuten.
>

Oh - there goes another myth of my life. Another, long ago was that "Manga"
meant "1000 Pictures".

Joachim

[LEE Sau Dan]

>>>>> "Joachim" == Joachim Pense <***@pense-mainz.eu> writes:

Joachim> Oh - there goes another myth of my life. Another, long ago
Joachim> was that "Manga" meant "1000 Pictures".

Not 10000 pictures?


--
Lee Sau Dan 李守敦 ~{@nJX6X~}

E-mail: ***@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee

[Joachim Pense]

LEE Sau Dan (in sci.lang):

>>>>>> "Joachim" == Joachim Pense <***@pense-mainz.eu> writes:
>
> Joachim> Oh - there goes another myth of my life. Another, long ago
> Joachim> was that "Manga" meant "1000 Pictures".
>
> Not 10000 pictures?
>
>

Oh, I forgot a 0. Of course, what I wrongly believed was that it meant "ten
thousand pictures".

Joachim

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Jul 7, 12:44 pm, Tak To <***@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> Joachim Pense wrote:
> > The Yamaha company was founded by someone called Yamaba.
> > The Toyota company was founded by someone called Toyoda.
>
> > Note that in Japanese compounds, the initial consonant of the second
> > component is often softened: h becomes b, k becomes g, and t becomes d.
> > (That's called "nigorization" by western Japanologists, from "Nigori" 'two
> > dashes', the diacritical in kana that expresses the softening)
>
> Nigori, meaning "muddy", refers to the voicing phenomenon. The
> diacritical mark itself is called niogri-ten (~ "point")
> or dakuten.
>
> > So "Yamaba" is the standard way to build a compound out of "yama" and "ha",
> > and "Toyoda" of "toyo" and "ta".
>
> > So why did they drop the nigori for their company names?
>
> I have been wondering about it myself.  Perhaps they think
> that the devoiced spelling is more "Western" or "modern".
>
> Note that the company name is always written in katagana
> and never in Kanji.  It seems that they consider the company
> name to be entirely separated from the original family name.

Note that the English word is "katakana" -- cf. "hiragana."

[Joachim Pense]

Peter T. Daniels (in sci.lang):

> On Jul 7, 12:44 pm, Tak To <***@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>> Joachim Pense wrote:
>> > The Yamaha company was founded by someone called Yamaba.
>> > The Toyota company was founded by someone called Toyoda.
>>
>> > Note that in Japanese compounds, the initial consonant of the second
>> > component is often softened: h becomes b, k becomes g, and t becomes d.
>> > (That's called "nigorization" by western Japanologists, from "Nigori"
>> > 'two dashes', the diacritical in kana that expresses the softening)
>>
>> Nigori, meaning "muddy", refers to the voicing phenomenon. The
>> diacritical mark itself is called niogri-ten (~ "point")
>> or dakuten.
>>
>> > So "Yamaba" is the standard way to build a compound out of "yama" and
>> > "ha", and "Toyoda" of "toyo" and "ta".
>>
>> > So why did they drop the nigori for their company names?
>>
>> I have been wondering about it myself.  Perhaps they think
>> that the devoiced spelling is more "Western" or "modern".
>>
>> Note that the company name is always written in katagana
>> and never in Kanji.  It seems that they consider the company
>> name to be entirely separated from the original family name.
>
> Note that the English word is "katakana" -- cf. "hiragana."

That brings me to the question: why is it "katakana" and not "katagana"?

Joachim

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Jul 8, 12:36 pm, Joachim Pense <***@pense-mainz.eu> wrote:
> Peter T. Daniels (in sci.lang):
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 7, 12:44 pm, Tak To <***@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> >> Joachim Pense wrote:
> >> > The Yamaha company was founded by someone called Yamaba.
> >> > The Toyota company was founded by someone called Toyoda.
>
> >> > Note that in Japanese compounds, the initial consonant of the second
> >> > component is often softened: h becomes b, k becomes g, and t becomes d.
> >> > (That's called "nigorization" by western Japanologists, from "Nigori"
> >> > 'two dashes', the diacritical in kana that expresses the softening)
>
> >> Nigori, meaning "muddy", refers to the voicing phenomenon. The
> >> diacritical mark itself is called niogri-ten (~ "point")
> >> or dakuten.
>
> >> > So "Yamaba" is the standard way to build a compound out of "yama" and
> >> > "ha", and "Toyoda" of "toyo" and "ta".
>
> >> > So why did they drop the nigori for their company names?
>
> >> I have been wondering about it myself.  Perhaps they think
> >> that the devoiced spelling is more "Western" or "modern".
>
> >> Note that the company name is always written in katagana
> >> and never in Kanji.  It seems that they consider the company
> >> name to be entirely separated from the original family name.
>
> > Note that the English word is "katakana" -- cf. "hiragana."
>
> That brings me to the question: why is it "katakana" and not "katagana"?

Which is precisely why I mentioned the example. Note vl. t before the
k and vd. r before the g.

[r***@yahoo.com]

On Jul 8, 3:35 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <***@verizon.net> wrote:
> On Jul 8, 12:36 pm, Joachim Pense <***@pense-mainz.eu> wrote:
> > Peter T. Daniels (in sci.lang):

> > > Note that the English word is "katakana" -- cf. "hiragana."
>
> > That brings me to the question: why is it "katakana" and not "katagana"?
>
> Which is precisely why I mentioned the example. Note vl. t before the
> k and vd. r before the g.

Consonant harmony? In which language? A dialect of the lending
language or the acquiring language?

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Jul 8, 7:22 pm, "***@yahoo.com"
<***@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jul 8, 3:35 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <***@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > On Jul 8, 12:36 pm, Joachim Pense <***@pense-mainz.eu> wrote:
> > > Peter T. Daniels (in sci.lang):
> > > > Note that the English word is "katakana" -- cf. "hiragana."
>
> > > That brings me to the question: why is it "katakana" and not "katagana"?
>
> > Which is precisely why I mentioned the example. Note vl. t before the
> > k and vd. r before the g.
>
> Consonant harmony? In which language? A dialect of the lending
> language or the acquiring language?

There's obviously no phonotactic difficulty with "katagana" or
"hirakana" in English.

[Bart Mathias]

Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Jul 8, 12:36 pm, Joachim Pense <***@pense-mainz.eu> wrote:
>> [...]
>> That brings me to the question: why is it "katakana" and not "katagana"?
>
> Which is precisely why I mentioned the example. Note vl. t before the
> k and vd. r before the g.

I doubt that helps clear up the mystery.

Note that the "-ba" of the OP's "Yamaha" comes out still "-ba" in the
surname "Kataba" made of "kata" + "ha," and "kami" goes to "-gami" in
the name "Katagami" as well as a common noun "katagami." On the other
hand, there are a number of proper nouns of the "KataC..." sort where
"C" remains voiceless. The same variation shows up in common nouns.

Voiced obstruents tend to show up in Japanese where one might imagine a
lost NV, a nasal-vowel syllable. But *"hira-no kana" doesn't seem any
more likely than *"kata-no kana"--in fact the latter might make more
sense--so I vote "katakana" still a puzzle.

Bart Mathias

[Oliver Cromm]

* Joachim Pense <***@pense-mainz.eu> wrote:

> The Yamaha company was founded by someone called Yamaba.
> The Toyota company was founded by someone called Toyoda.
>
> Note that in Japanese compounds, the initial consonant of the second
> component is often softened: h becomes b, k becomes g, and t becomes d.
> (That's called "nigorization" by western Japanologists, from "Nigori" 'two
> dashes', the diacritical in kana that expresses the softening)
>
> So "Yamaba" is the standard way to build a compound out of "yama" and "ha",
> and "Toyoda" of "toyo" and "ta".
>
> So why did they drop the nigori for their company names?

I don't think nigorization is that predictable. While in some contexts,
it's obligatory, e.g. Kan + ta = Kanda, in names as Yamaha or Toyota,
both variants are possible. Hara+ta is normally Harada, but Mori+ta,
with the same ta, is normally Morita. Nakashima and Nakajima, or Takata
and Takada are both common names, and written the same. I even heard of
cases where between father and son, one would use the form with nigori
and one the form without for their family name. Note that the
pronunciation of a name is not officially registered, at least
traditionally, and the written form is generally considered the true
name, i.e., to my knowledge, two people are considered to have the same
name if and only if it is written the same, regardless of pronunciation.

--
Bill Gates working as a waiter:
- Waiter, there's a fly in my soup
- Try again, maybe it won't be there this time

[Prai Jei]

Oliver Cromm set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time
continuum:

> * Joachim Pense <***@pense-mainz.eu> wrote:
>
>> The Yamaha company was founded by someone called Yamaba.
>> The Toyota company was founded by someone called Toyoda.
>>
>> Note that in Japanese compounds, the initial consonant of the second
>> component is often softened: h becomes b, k becomes g, and t becomes d.
>> (That's called "nigorization" by western Japanologists, from "Nigori"
>> 'two dashes', the diacritical in kana that expresses the softening)
>>
>> So "Yamaba" is the standard way to build a compound out of "yama" and
>> "ha", and "Toyoda" of "toyo" and "ta".
>>
>> So why did they drop the nigori for their company names?
>
> I don't think nigorization is that predictable. While in some contexts,
> it's obligatory, e.g. Kan + ta = Kanda, in names as Yamaha or Toyota,
> both variants are possible. Hara+ta is normally Harada, but Mori+ta,
> with the same ta, is normally Morita.

Sounds vaguely like the soft mutations we get in Welsh, e.g. the Welsh name
for Wales is Cymru but on the signs welcoming one to this little country
you see "Croeso i Gymru" where the rules of Welsh grammar call
for "softening" (voicing) of the initial consonant in various
circumstances. Similarly Llandudno is centred on the church of St. Tudno.
--
ξ:) Proud to be curly

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