Discussion:
Basque and Nostratic
(too old to reply)
Arnaud Fournet
2018-01-08 01:31:08 UTC
Permalink
https://www.academia.edu/s/037fc471c5/paleo-european-substrates-with-caucasic-and-basque-comparanda

Some of you might be interested in reading this paper about Basque, among other issues.
A.
Arnaud Fournet
2018-01-10 19:42:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arnaud Fournet
https://www.academia.edu/s/037fc471c5/paleo-european-substrates-with-caucasic-and-basque-comparanda
Some of you might be interested in reading this paper about Basque, among other issues.
A.
Apparently, the Dictatorship has banned me from Academia.edu.
For the time being, it seems I can still post here.
A.
DKleinecke
2018-01-11 01:38:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Post by Arnaud Fournet
https://www.academia.edu/s/037fc471c5/paleo-european-substrates-with-caucasic-and-basque-comparanda
Some of you might be interested in reading this paper about Basque, among other issues.
A.
Apparently, the Dictatorship has banned me from Academia.edu.
For the time being, it seems I can still post here.
A.
I mentioned before that I have given up on Academia so IMO
being banned there is no great loss. No one can stop you from
posting on sci.lang. Do a Franz.

I see no a priori reason why Basque shouldn't be included in
Nostratic - the criteria for a language being Nostratic are so
imprecise anything might be. Sino-Tibetan?
Franz Gnaedinger
2018-01-11 07:40:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by DKleinecke
I mentioned before that I have given up on Academia so IMO
being banned there is no great loss. No one can stop you from
posting on sci.lang. Do a Franz.
I see no a priori reason why Basque shouldn't be included in
Nostratic - the criteria for a language being Nostratic are so
imprecise anything might be. Sino-Tibetan?
Good advice. The Usenet is a great facility with a huge potential, and so far
we succeeded in keeping the hyperkooks at bay (look what happened for example
to sci.math). When it comes to Basque, one has to consider Theo Venneman and
his approach called Vasconic. His witnesses of the crown (? Kronzeugen) are
geographical names like Val d'Aran and Arundel, and rivers like Dordogne
and Douro. In Switzerland we have a Val d'Hérens and a river Thur. I derive
them from AAR RAA NOS, the sky god of old, he of air AAR and light RAA with
a mind (of his own) NOS, and TYR for to overcome in the double sense of
rule and give - rivers are overcomers that rule the life and make a valley
fertile. Ultimately the Magdalenian approach and Vasconic and Nostratic
should converge. I am for a multi-dimensional approach, in grammar and in
Paleo-linguistic. And sci.lang is a place where this can be developed.
(Can't open the text by A.F. but have something general to say, as my name
was invoked.)
Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
2018-01-11 09:51:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by DKleinecke
I mentioned before that I have given up on Academia so IMO
being banned there is no great loss. No one can stop you from
posting on sci.lang. Do a Franz.
I see no a priori reason why Basque shouldn't be included in
Nostratic - the criteria for a language being Nostratic are so
imprecise anything might be. Sino-Tibetan?
Good advice. The Usenet is a great facility with a huge potential, and so far
we succeeded in keeping the hyperkooks at bay
Who is "we" exactly? Deine Majestät, Kaiser Franz?
Franz Gnaedinger
2018-01-12 08:31:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Good advice. The Usenet is a great facility with a huge potential, and so far
we succeeded in keeping the hyperkooks at bay (look what happened for example
to sci.math). When it comes to Basque, one has to consider Theo Venneman and
his approach called Vasconic. His witnesses of the crown (? Kronzeugen) are
geographical names like Val d'Aran and Arundel, and rivers like Dordogne
and Douro. In Switzerland we have a Val d'Hérens and a river Thur. I derive
them from AAR RAA NOS, the sky god of old, he of air AAR and light RAA with
a mind (of his own) NOS, and TYR for to overcome in the double sense of
rule and give - rivers are overcomers that rule the life and make a valley
fertile. Ultimately the Magdalenian approach and Vasconic and Nostratic
should converge. I am for a multi-dimensional approach, in grammar and in
Paleo-linguistic. And sci.lang is a place where this can be developed.
(Can't open the text by A.F. but have something general to say, as my name
was invoked.)
Hyperkooks dominate a forum by starting up to five threads a day (sci.math
et al.), they can't focus, and they don't offer test cases. I rarely start
a new thread, can focus very well, and offer test cases, most proudly my
triple test case regarding the name of Zeus, the Indo-European homeland
(longest and most frustrating problem of IE studies according to Mallory
& Adams 2006), and words for the horse. Also kooks from the academic side
of the fence can't focus, they look at things only ever from the textbook
perspective, which severely limits the functionality of their knowledge,
and they can't argue on the topic level, so they climb meta-levels,
dropping verdicts from above and ridiculing serious work. That sort of
kook fails when a forum is getting attacked by a potential hyperkook.
But thankfully some people in sci.lang do argue on the scientific level
and can cope with attempts at taking over this forum.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-01-12 09:32:27 UTC
Permalink
[ ... ]
Hyperkooks dominate a forum by starting up to five threads a day (sci.math
et al.), they can't focus, and they don't offer test cases. I rarely start
a new thread, can focus very well, and offer test cases,
You claim to offer test cases, but you have never explained how one
would set about testing them.
most proudly my
triple test case regarding the name of Zeus, the Indo-European homeland
(longest and most frustrating problem of IE studies according to Mallory
& Adams 2006), and words for the horse.
--
athel
Franz Gnaedinger
2018-01-13 10:54:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
You claim to offer test cases, but you have never explained how one
would set about testing them.
I explained it many times, and a couple of months ago to you personally,
as I recall. Natural sciences allow predictions, historical sciences not
really, apart from new discoveries or an ingenious decipherment of an
ancient document. The name of Zeus has been called the only simple name
in the Greek pantheon that poses no problem, for it derives from something
like *dyaeus. Now Derk Ohlenroth's decipherment of the Phaistos Disc
revealed the Middle Helladic name of Zeus (around 1650 BC): Ss Ey R Sseyr.
This name is not closer to *dyaeus but farther away. My reconstruction
yielded TYR as origin of Sseyr, the one who overcomes in the double sense
of rule and give, present in Greek tyrant, originally a positive term,
but when the 'rule and give' is turned into 'rule and take' the word becomes
negative. TYR emphatic Middle Helladic Sseyr (Phaistos Disc, Derk Ohlenroth)
Doric Sseus (Wilhelm Larfeld) Homeric Zeus, then also French Sieur monsieur
English Sire sir, and German Herr - a title for every man. Derivatives of
TYR abound in Central Asia, which made me locate the first Indo-European
homeland on the banks of the Amu Darya, centered in the triangle of Termez
- Kunduz - Kurgan T'upe. The second IE homeland would have been the Uralic
steppes east of the Rha Volga, and the third IE homeland the Pontic steppes
west of the Rha Volga - Rha, ancient name of the Volga, akin to Rhea, mother
of Zeus and Poseidon and Hades, her Gallo-Roman alter ego Epona riding a horse
in lady fashion, accompanied by a bird, a foal, and a dog, which animals
remind of eagle, horse and dog, emblematic animals of Zeus, Poseidon and Hades
respectively. The horse of the first IE homeland (that became later Bactria,
rich in horses) was called AS PAC, upward AS horse PAC, naming little but
strong pony-like horses used for carrying loads up a slope or hill or mountain,
accounting for Avestan aspa 'horse' and Sanskrit asva 'horse', while the
emphatic form PAC AS AS, horse up up, accounts for the winged horse Pegasos
Pegasus, originally the embodiment of the hot summer wind Afghanetz that
blows from the Aral Sea upward to the Hindukush, and, as horse of poetry,
indicates an original saga or even epic from that region, an oral epic
fragments of which survive in the oldest layer of Greek mythology. Now
the horse of the second and third homeland was called by a phonetically
similar but semantically different compound, AC PAS, an expanse of land
with water AC everywhere (in a plain) PAS - riding this aninmal you can get everywhere in the Eurasian steppes ... (PR slogan of an IE horse breeder).

AS PAC aspa asva PAC AS AS Pegasos Pegasus

AC PAS hippos equus Epona hevonen

PIE subsumes all those horse names under *H1ekwos: Magdalenian makes a
difference: two compounds and groups of derivatives.

My Latin dictionary say that the etymology of Latin caballus 'horse' is not
known. For this word we have to go back to Lascaux. Marie E.P. König identified
the bull as moon bull, and the horse as sun horse. My reconstruction yielded
CA LAB for the winter sun horse, sky CA cold LAB, accounting for gallop and
German Klepper; CA BEL or longer CA BEL IAS for the spring sun horse, sky CA
warm BEL healing IAS, the warm sun healing ailments of a long and harsh winter,
accounting for ABelios AFelios Helios, the Greek sun god with a quadriga of
horses; and the summer sun horse CA BAL, sky CA hot BAL, accounting for Latin
caballus and Spanish caballo. Hear them run across the heavenly pasture

CA LAB CA LAB CA LAB CA LAB ...
CA BEL CA BEL CA BEL CA BEL ...
CA BAL CA BAL CA BAL CA BAL ...

The three test cases form a cluster of hypotheses worth of being published
somewhere. Alas, the humanities are caught in a feudalistic bubble and wobble
along decades behind the present. Luckily we have the Usenet where new ideas
can be published and developed. Retrodictions in a historical science can't
be tested as predictions in natural sciences, but we can discuss them.
Give the IE explanations of the questions raised above, and if yours are
better, PIE wins, but if mine are more insightful and coherent and opening
avenues for further research, I have at least a right to go on and publish
my work.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-01-13 13:19:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
You claim to offer test cases, but you have never explained how one>
would set about testing them.
I explained it many times, and a couple of months ago to you personally,
as I recall. Natural sciences allow predictions, historical sciences not
really, apart from new discoveries or an ingenious decipherment of an
ancient document. The name of Zeus has been called the only simple name
in the Greek pantheon that poses no problem, for it derives from something
like *dyaeus. Now Derk Ohlenroth's decipherment of the Phaistos Disc
revealed the Middle Helladic name of Zeus (around 1650 BC): Ss Ey R Sseyr.
This name is not closer to *dyaeus but farther away. My reconstruction
yielded TYR as origin of Sseyr, the one who overcomes in the double sense
of rule and give, present in Greek tyrant, originally a positive term,
but when the 'rule and give' is turned into 'rule and take' the word becomes
negative. TYR emphatic Middle Helladic Sseyr (Phaistos Disc, Derk Ohlenroth)
Doric Sseus (Wilhelm Larfeld) Homeric Zeus, then also French Sieur monsieur
English Sire sir, and German Herr - a title for every man. Derivatives of
TYR abound in Central Asia, which made me locate the first Indo-European
homeland on the banks of the Amu Darya, centered in the triangle of Termez
- Kunduz - Kurgan T'upe. The second IE homeland would have been the Uralic
steppes east of the Rha Volga, and the third IE homeland the Pontic steppes
west of the Rha Volga - Rha, ancient name of the Volga, akin to Rhea, mother
of Zeus and Poseidon and Hades, her Gallo-Roman alter ego Epona riding a horse
in lady fashion, accompanied by a bird, a foal, and a dog, which animals
remind of eagle, horse and dog, emblematic animals of Zeus, Poseidon and Hades
respectively. The horse of the first IE homeland (that became later Bactria,
rich in horses) was called AS PAC, upward AS horse PAC, naming little
butstrong pony-like horses used for carrying loads up a slope or hill
or mountain,
accounting for Avestan aspa 'horse' and Sanskrit asva 'horse', while the
emphatic form PAC AS AS, horse up up, accounts for the winged horse Pegasos
Pegasus, originally the embodiment of the hot summer wind Afghanetz that
blows from the Aral Sea upward to the Hindukush, and, as horse of poetry,
indicates an original saga or even epic from that region, an oral epic
fragments of which survive in the oldest layer of Greek mythology. Now
the horse of the second and third homeland was called by a phonetically
similar but semantically different compound, AC PAS, an expanse of land
with water AC everywhere (in a plain) PAS - riding this aninmal you can
get everywhere in the Eurasian steppes ... (PR slogan of an IE horse
breeder).
AS PAC aspa asva PAC AS AS Pegasos Pegasus
AC PAS hippos equus Epona hevonen
PIE subsumes all those horse names under *H1ekwos: Magdalenian makes a
difference: two compounds and groups of derivatives.
My Latin dictionary say that the etymology of Latin caballus 'horse' is not
known. For this word we have to go back to Lascaux. Marie E.P. König
identified
the bull as moon bull, and the horse as sun horse. My reconstruction yielded
CA LAB for the winter sun horse, sky CA cold LAB, accounting for gallop and
German Klepper; CA BEL or longer CA BEL IAS for the spring sun horse, sky CA
warm BEL healing IAS, the warm sun healing ailments of a long and harsh winter,
accounting for ABelios AFelios Helios, the Greek sun god with a quadriga of
horses; and the summer sun horse CA BAL, sky CA hot BAL, accounting for Latin
caballus and Spanish caballo. Hear them run across the heavenly pasture
CA LAB CA LAB CA LAB CA LAB ...
CA BEL CA BEL CA BEL CA BEL ...
CA BAL CA BAL CA BAL CA BAL ...
The three test cases form a cluster of hypotheses worth of being published
somewhere. Alas, the humanities are caught in a feudalistic bubble and wobble
along decades behind the present. Luckily we have the Usenet where new ideas
can be published and developed. Retrodictions in a historical science can't
be tested as predictions in natural sciences, but we can discuss
them.Give the IE explanations of the questions raised above, and if
yours are
better, PIE wins, but if mine are more insightful and coherent and opening
avenues for further research, I have at least a right to go on and publish
my work.
Is there anything in that torrent of words that can be called a test case?

What we need is not just a "cluster of hypotheses" (hunches, really),
it is a prediction of some result not known at the time of the
prediction that can be determined afterwards. What predictions have you
made that were subsequently checked with new observations and found to
be true?

No one says you haven't the right to publish your work. Who is stopping you?
--
athel
António Marques
2018-01-13 15:20:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
You claim to offer test cases, but you have never explained how one
would set about testing them.
I explained it many times, and a couple of months ago to you personally,
as I recall. Natural sciences allow predictions, historical sciences not
really, apart from new discoveries or an ingenious decipherment of an
ancient document.
So you are saying that your stuff has succeeded in one or both of these
where comparative linguistics has failed, is that it? Do try to write it
down more schematically and without detours, so we can appreciate the
differences.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-01-13 17:26:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by António Marques
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
You claim to offer test cases, but you have never explained how one
would set about testing them.
I explained it many times, and a couple of months ago to you personally,
as I recall. Natural sciences allow predictions, historical sciences not
really, apart from new discoveries or an ingenious decipherment of an
ancient document.
So you are saying that your stuff has succeeded in one or both of these
where comparative linguistics has failed, is that it? Do try to write it
down more schematically and without detours, so we can appreciate the
differences.
Let us take the example of a prediction in biology that was made about
an organism that existed 375 million years ago. Phylogenetic analysis
suggested that an intermediate between fish and tetrapods should have
lived 375 million years ago. Rocks of that age were known to exist on
Ellesmere Island, a thoroughly inhospitable place in the frozen north
of Canada, and Neil Shubin predicted that if he went there he would
find fossils of that intermediate. He went there and found them, and
named the beast Tiktaalik. It wasn't a prediction of what happened 375
million years ago, it was a prediction of what he would find if he went
to Ellesmere Island.

How would that apply to Franz's musings? He might predict that careful
study of a newly discovered ancient and not yet completely studied
manuscript would show evidence that the scribes used a word similar to
"bear" to refer to animals that were furry but not necessarily brown.
If later study of a manuscript showed exactly that it could be regarded
as evidence for Franz's idea. Whether it did or not it would be a test.
As far as I can work out all his so-called "test cases" are just
handwaving, with nothing I would call a test.
--
athel
António Marques
2018-01-13 20:37:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by António Marques
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
You claim to offer test cases, but you have never explained how one
would set about testing them.
I explained it many times, and a couple of months ago to you personally,
as I recall. Natural sciences allow predictions, historical sciences not
really, apart from new discoveries or an ingenious decipherment of an
ancient document.
So you are saying that your stuff has succeeded in one or both of these
where comparative linguistics has failed, is that it? Do try to write it
down more schematically and without detours, so we can appreciate the
differences.
Let us take the example of a prediction in biology that was made about
an organism that existed 375 million years ago. Phylogenetic analysis
suggested that an intermediate between fish and tetrapods should have
lived 375 million years ago. Rocks of that age were known to exist on
Ellesmere Island, a thoroughly inhospitable place in the frozen north
of Canada, and Neil Shubin predicted that if he went there he would
find fossils of that intermediate. He went there and found them, and
named the beast Tiktaalik. It wasn't a prediction of what happened 375
million years ago, it was a prediction of what he would find if he went
to Ellesmere Island.
How would that apply to Franz's musings? He might predict that careful
study of a newly discovered ancient and not yet completely studied
manuscript would show evidence that the scribes used a word similar to
"bear" to refer to animals that were furry but not necessarily brown.
If later study of a manuscript showed exactly that it could be regarded
as evidence for Franz's idea. Whether it did or not it would be a test.
As far as I can work out all his so-called "test cases" are just
handwaving, with nothing I would call a test.
Iiuc, he’d just say it’s not up to anybody else to determine what would be
a test for his stuff.
Franz Gnaedinger
2018-01-15 09:13:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
I explained it many times, and a couple of months ago to you personally,
as I recall. Natural sciences allow predictions, historical sciences not
really, apart from new discoveries or an ingenious decipherment of an
ancient document. The name of Zeus has been called the only simple name
in the Greek pantheon that poses no problem, for it derives from something
like *dyaeus. Now Derk Ohlenroth's decipherment of the Phaistos Disc
revealed the Middle Helladic name of Zeus (around 1650 BC): Ss Ey R Sseyr.
This name is not closer to *dyaeus but farther away. My reconstruction
yielded TYR as origin of Sseyr, the one who overcomes in the double sense
of rule and give, present in Greek tyrant, originally a positive term,
but when the 'rule and give' is turned into 'rule and take' the word becomes
negative. TYR emphatic Middle Helladic Sseyr (Phaistos Disc, Derk Ohlenroth)
Doric Sseus (Wilhelm Larfeld) Homeric Zeus, then also French Sieur monsieur
English Sire sir, and German Herr - a title for every man. Derivatives of
TYR abound in Central Asia, which made me locate the first Indo-European
homeland on the banks of the Amu Darya, centered in the triangle of Termez
- Kunduz - Kurgan T'upe. The second IE homeland would have been the Uralic
steppes east of the Rha Volga, and the third IE homeland the Pontic steppes
west of the Rha Volga - Rha, ancient name of the Volga, akin to Rhea, mother
of Zeus and Poseidon and Hades, her Gallo-Roman alter ego Epona riding a horse
in lady fashion, accompanied by a bird, a foal, and a dog, which animals
remind of eagle, horse and dog, emblematic animals of Zeus, Poseidon and Hades
respectively. The horse of the first IE homeland (that became later Bactria,
rich in horses) was called AS PAC, upward AS horse PAC, naming little but
strong pony-like horses used for carrying loads up a slope or hill or mountain,
accounting for Avestan aspa 'horse' and Sanskrit asva 'horse', while the
emphatic form PAC AS AS, horse up up, accounts for the winged horse Pegasos
Pegasus, originally the embodiment of the hot summer wind Afghanetz that
blows from the Aral Sea upward to the Hindukush, and, as horse of poetry,
indicates an original saga or even epic from that region, an oral epic
fragments of which survive in the oldest layer of Greek mythology. Now
the horse of the second and third homeland was called by a phonetically
similar but semantically different compound, AC PAS, an expanse of land
with water AC everywhere (in a plain) PAS - riding this aninmal you can get everywhere in the Eurasian steppes ... (PR slogan of an IE horse breeder).
AS PAC aspa asva PAC AS AS Pegasos Pegasus
AC PAS hippos equus Epona hevonen
PIE subsumes all those horse names under *H1ekwos: Magdalenian makes a
difference: two compounds and groups of derivatives.
My Latin dictionary say that the etymology of Latin caballus 'horse' is not
known. For this word we have to go back to Lascaux. Marie E.P. König identified
the bull as moon bull, and the horse as sun horse. My reconstruction yielded
CA LAB for the winter sun horse, sky CA cold LAB, accounting for gallop and
German Klepper; CA BEL or longer CA BEL IAS for the spring sun horse, sky CA
warm BEL healing IAS, the warm sun healing ailments of a long and harsh winter,
accounting for ABelios AFelios Helios, the Greek sun god with a quadriga of
horses; and the summer sun horse CA BAL, sky CA hot BAL, accounting for Latin
caballus and Spanish caballo. Hear them run across the heavenly pasture
CA LAB CA LAB CA LAB CA LAB ...
CA BEL CA BEL CA BEL CA BEL ...
CA BAL CA BAL CA BAL CA BAL ...
The three test cases form a cluster of hypotheses worth of being published
somewhere. Alas, the humanities are caught in a feudalistic bubble and wobble
along decades behind the present. Luckily we have the Usenet where new ideas
can be published and developed. Retrodictions in a historical science can't
be tested as predictions in natural sciences, but we can discuss them.
Give the IE explanations of the questions raised above, and if yours are
better, PIE wins, but if mine are more insightful and coherent and opening
avenues for further research, I have at least a right to go on and publish
my work.
This message earned me a rich harvest of seven replies that don't care at all
about the questions I raise in my triple test case, neither the name of Zeus,
nor the Indo-European homeland, nor words for the horse. You can't focus
and stay topic, instead you climb to meta-levels and drop verdicts from
above, ridiculing my work instead of denfending PIE, and this makes you
what I call kooks from the academic side of the fence.

Prove PIE to me, prove that aspa asva hippos equus have the same root in
*H1ekwos. I say that PIE and Nostratic are Magdalenian seen through frosted
glass; the contours are not clear enough to discern between derivatives of
phonetically similar but semantically different compounds, in the given case
derivatives of AS PAC, aspa and asva, and derivatives of AC PAS, hippos and
equus. Argue in favor of the PIE root, I'll defend my Magdalenin compounds.
If you again escape to meta-levels and spout invectives, you just confirm
my opinion: you feel omnipotent while you are the contrary.
Daud Deden
2018-01-16 00:27:38 UTC
Permalink
Franz, 7ka PIE roots are shallow, 16ka Magdalenian roots are deeper, but complex vocal language was in use 40k years before that.
Ruud Harmsen
2018-01-16 08:44:39 UTC
Permalink
Mon, 15 Jan 2018 16:27:38 -0800 (PST): Daud Deden
Post by Daud Deden
Franz, 7ka PIE roots are shallow, 16ka Magdalenian roots are deeper, but complex vocal language was in use 40k years before that.
You guys know coz you were there to tell.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Daud Deden
2018-01-16 21:10:29 UTC
Permalink
Franz: aspa asva hippos equus ****@PIE ***@Germanic: horse: ***@Malay

*aexyuatla: ass as(v/p)a ox shuttle/xiotl ekwos equus

hippos from earlier *xyambuatla (open (plains) bearer)

***@Malay: deer

DD ~ David ~ Da'ud ~ Diode ~ ∆^¥°∆

On Jan 16, 2018 3:45 AM, "Ruud Harmsen" <***@rudhar.com> wrote:

Mon, 15 Jan 2018 16:27:38 -0800 (PST): Daud Deden
Post by Daud Deden
Franz, 7ka PIE roots are shallow, 16ka Magdalenian roots are deeper, but complex vocal language was in use 40k years before that.
You guys know coz you were there to tell.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Those who don't hear the past are condemned to repeat it?
Daud Deden
2018-01-16 22:01:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daud Deden
*aexyuatla: ass as(v/p)a ox shuttle/xiotl ekwos equus
hippos from earlier *xyambuatla (open (plains) bearer)(?)
***@Malay: deer
***@African: large plains antelope
***@Mbuti-Efe: small forest antelope
***@Malay: dog

*aexyuandualua -> *aexyuatla

horse ***@Fr, ***@Sp, ***@Ital, ***@Germ

ass-donkey ane, burro, asino, esel

goat chevre, cabra, capra, ziege
Post by Daud Deden
DD ~ David ~ Da'ud ~ Diode ~ ∆^¥°∆
Mon, 15 Jan 2018 16:27:38 -0800 (PST): Daud Deden
Post by Daud Deden
Franz, 7ka PIE roots are shallow, 16ka Magdalenian roots are deeper, but complex vocal language was in use 40k years before that.
You guys know coz you were there to tell.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Those who don't hear the past are condemned to repeat it?
Franz Gnaedinger
2018-01-17 08:03:13 UTC
Permalink
No I don't say that. I say that PIE proposes *H1ekwos hippos equus aspa asva
while Magdalenian makes a difference: AS PC aspa asva, AC PAS hippos equus,
also Epona and Finnish hevonen. And German Ross 'horse' derives from RYT
for a spear thrower, archer, Greek rhytaer 'archer, protector', inverse of
the overcomer TYR who both rules and gives, one of his most precious gifts
being protection. RYT has derivatives in German Reiter English rider, also
in German Ritter 'knight', originally a riding archer, then in German Ross,
an emphatic form analogous to TYR Sseyr, and in the item Ross und Reiter
'horse and rider'.

You are still insisting that David and diode are cognates, which is utter
utterer uttermost nonsense. I asked you many times for an explanation,
you never gave it.
Daud Deden
2018-01-19 22:06:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
No I don't say that.
-
Obviously. No quotes.
-
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
I say that PIE proposes *H1ekwos hippos equus aspa asva
while Magdalenian makes a difference: AS PC aspa asva, AC PAS hippos equus,
also Epona and Finnish hevonen. And German Ross 'horse' derives from RYT
for a spear thrower, archer, Greek rhytaer 'archer, protector'
dart/tat/gag thrower: archer, ***@Azt, ***@Dayak: blowgun/pisto(n/l)), ***@Aztec: throw -> mbedl/xyambuatl = throw a party

***@Basque: protect, shield; ***@Hebrew: shield
-
, inverse of
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
the overcomer TYR who both rules and gives, one of his most precious gifts
being protection. RYT has derivatives in German Reiter English rider, also
in German Ritter 'knight', originally a riding archer, then in German Ross,
an emphatic form analogous to TYR Sseyr, and in the item Ross und Reiter
'horse and rider'.
-
raider
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
You are still insisting that David and diode are cognates, which is utter
utterer uttermost nonsense. I asked you many times for an explanation,
you never gave it.
Daud Deden
2018-01-22 22:09:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daud Deden
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
No I don't say that.
-
Obviously. No quotes.
-
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
I say that PIE proposes *H1ekwos hippos equus aspa asva
while Magdalenian makes a difference: AS PC aspa asva, AC PAS hippos equus,
also Epona and Finnish hevonen. And German Ross 'horse' derives from RYT
for a spear thrower, archer, Greek rhytaer 'archer, protector'
ryt from ra(y/ttle)/tattletail/atlatl/shuttle.r, re/ra & tla/flame.r ~ Shakespeare.
Post by Daud Deden
-
, inverse of
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
the overcomer TYR who both rules and gives, one of his most precious gifts
being protection. RYT has derivatives in German Reiter English rider, also
in German Ritter 'knight', originally a riding archer, then in German Ross,
an emphatic form analogous to TYR Sseyr, and in the item Ross und Reiter
'horse and rider'.
-
raider
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
You are still insisting that David and diode are cognates, which is utter
utterer uttermost nonsense. I asked you many times for an explanation,
you never gave it.
Daud Deden
2018-01-22 22:47:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daud Deden
Post by Daud Deden
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
No I don't say that.
-
Obviously. No quotes.
-
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
I say that PIE proposes *H1ekwos hippos equus aspa asva
while Magdalenian makes a difference: AS PC aspa asva, AC PAS hippos equus,
also Epona and Finnish hevonen. And German Ross 'horse' derives from RYT
for a spear thrower, archer, Greek rhytaer 'archer, protector'
ryt from ra(y/ttle)/tattletail/atlatl/shuttle.r, re/ra & tla/flame.r ~ Shakespeare.
https://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogspot.com/2018/01/lucky-find-gives-archaeologists-glimpse.html#ZC3qdPCQf5aUcMy7.97

atlatl in Yukon with copper-tipped arrow 1ka
Post by Daud Deden
Post by Daud Deden
-
, inverse of
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
the overcomer TYR who both rules and gives, one of his most precious gifts
being protection. RYT has derivatives in German Reiter English rider, also
in German Ritter 'knight', originally a riding archer, then in German Ross,
an emphatic form analogous to TYR Sseyr, and in the item Ross und Reiter
'horse and rider'.
-
raider
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
You are still insisting that David and diode are cognates, which is utter
utterer uttermost nonsense. I asked you many times for an explanation,
you never gave it.
DKleinecke
2018-01-23 01:03:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daud Deden
Post by Daud Deden
Post by Daud Deden
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
No I don't say that.
-
Obviously. No quotes.
-
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
I say that PIE proposes *H1ekwos hippos equus aspa asva
while Magdalenian makes a difference: AS PC aspa asva, AC PAS hippos equus,
also Epona and Finnish hevonen. And German Ross 'horse' derives from RYT
for a spear thrower, archer, Greek rhytaer 'archer, protector'
ryt from ra(y/ttle)/tattletail/atlatl/shuttle.r, re/ra & tla/flame.r ~ Shakespeare.
https://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogspot.com/2018/01/lucky-find-gives-archaeologists-glimpse.html#ZC3qdPCQf5aUcMy7.97
atlatl in Yukon with copper-tipped arrow 1ka
Post by Daud Deden
Post by Daud Deden
-
, inverse of
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
the overcomer TYR who both rules and gives, one of his most precious gifts
being protection. RYT has derivatives in German Reiter English rider, also
in German Ritter 'knight', originally a riding archer, then in German Ross,
an emphatic form analogous to TYR Sseyr, and in the item Ross und Reiter
'horse and rider'.
-
raider
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
You are still insisting that David and diode are cognates, which is utter
utterer uttermost nonsense. I asked you many times for an explanation,
you never gave it.
IMO there is, as yet, insufficient study of the copper
arrowhead. It might well have been traded in from the south.

But this is sci.lang - please stick to language.
b***@ihug.co.nz
2018-01-23 03:46:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by DKleinecke
Post by Daud Deden
Post by Daud Deden
Post by Daud Deden
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
No I don't say that.
-
Obviously. No quotes.
-
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
I say that PIE proposes *H1ekwos hippos equus aspa asva
while Magdalenian makes a difference: AS PC aspa asva, AC PAS hippos equus,
also Epona and Finnish hevonen. And German Ross 'horse' derives from RYT
for a spear thrower, archer, Greek rhytaer 'archer, protector'
ryt from ra(y/ttle)/tattletail/atlatl/shuttle.r, re/ra & tla/flame.r ~ Shakespeare.
https://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogspot.com/2018/01/lucky-find-gives-archaeologists-glimpse.html#ZC3qdPCQf5aUcMy7.97
atlatl in Yukon with copper-tipped arrow 1ka
Post by Daud Deden
Post by Daud Deden
-
, inverse of
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
the overcomer TYR who both rules and gives, one of his most precious gifts
being protection. RYT has derivatives in German Reiter English rider, also
in German Ritter 'knight', originally a riding archer, then in German Ross,
an emphatic form analogous to TYR Sseyr, and in the item Ross und Reiter
'horse and rider'.
-
raider
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
You are still insisting that David and diode are cognates, which is utter
utterer uttermost nonsense. I asked you many times for an explanation,
you never gave it.
IMO there is, as yet, insufficient study of the copper
arrowhead. It might well have been traded in from the south.
But this is sci.lang - please stick to language.
There are significant sources of native copper in the Yukon-Alaska
border region. It was traded down the coast well before European
times, but AFAIK used only as a display valuable. This is the
first I've heard of practical use of it.
Daud Deden
2018-01-23 19:30:32 UTC
Permalink
Copper & iron were pounded into arrowheads, but never with antler shafts IIRC.
Daud Deden
2018-01-23 19:24:15 UTC
Permalink
DK, this is sci.lang, the "arrow" was an atlatl dart, which is exactly what the preceding post referred to. You must be bored.
António Marques
2018-01-16 01:39:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
I explained it many times, and a couple of months ago to you personally,
as I recall. Natural sciences allow predictions, historical sciences not
really, apart from new discoveries or an ingenious decipherment of an
ancient document. The name of Zeus has been called the only simple name
in the Greek pantheon that poses no problem, for it derives from something
like *dyaeus. Now Derk Ohlenroth's decipherment of the Phaistos Disc
revealed the Middle Helladic name of Zeus (around 1650 BC): Ss Ey R Sseyr.
This name is not closer to *dyaeus but farther away. My reconstruction
yielded TYR as origin of Sseyr, the one who overcomes in the double sense
of rule and give, present in Greek tyrant, originally a positive term,
but when the 'rule and give' is turned into 'rule and take' the word becomes
negative. TYR emphatic Middle Helladic Sseyr (Phaistos Disc, Derk Ohlenroth)
Doric Sseus (Wilhelm Larfeld) Homeric Zeus, then also French Sieur monsieur
English Sire sir, and German Herr - a title for every man. Derivatives of
TYR abound in Central Asia, which made me locate the first Indo-European
homeland on the banks of the Amu Darya, centered in the triangle of Termez
- Kunduz - Kurgan T'upe. The second IE homeland would have been the Uralic
steppes east of the Rha Volga, and the third IE homeland the Pontic steppes
west of the Rha Volga - Rha, ancient name of the Volga, akin to Rhea, mother
of Zeus and Poseidon and Hades, her Gallo-Roman alter ego Epona riding a horse
in lady fashion, accompanied by a bird, a foal, and a dog, which animals
remind of eagle, horse and dog, emblematic animals of Zeus, Poseidon and Hades
respectively. The horse of the first IE homeland (that became later Bactria,
rich in horses) was called AS PAC, upward AS horse PAC, naming little but
strong pony-like horses used for carrying loads up a slope or hill or mountain,
accounting for Avestan aspa 'horse' and Sanskrit asva 'horse', while the
emphatic form PAC AS AS, horse up up, accounts for the winged horse Pegasos
Pegasus, originally the embodiment of the hot summer wind Afghanetz that
blows from the Aral Sea upward to the Hindukush, and, as horse of poetry,
indicates an original saga or even epic from that region, an oral epic
fragments of which survive in the oldest layer of Greek mythology. Now
the horse of the second and third homeland was called by a phonetically
similar but semantically different compound, AC PAS, an expanse of land
with water AC everywhere (in a plain) PAS - riding this aninmal you can
get everywhere in the Eurasian steppes ... (PR slogan of an IE horse breeder).
AS PAC aspa asva PAC AS AS Pegasos Pegasus
AC PAS hippos equus Epona hevonen
PIE subsumes all those horse names under *H1ekwos: Magdalenian makes a
difference: two compounds and groups of derivatives.
My Latin dictionary say that the etymology of Latin caballus 'horse' is not
known. For this word we have to go back to Lascaux. Marie E.P. König identified
the bull as moon bull, and the horse as sun horse. My reconstruction yielded
CA LAB for the winter sun horse, sky CA cold LAB, accounting for gallop and
German Klepper; CA BEL or longer CA BEL IAS for the spring sun horse, sky CA
warm BEL healing IAS, the warm sun healing ailments of a long and harsh winter,
accounting for ABelios AFelios Helios, the Greek sun god with a quadriga of
horses; and the summer sun horse CA BAL, sky CA hot BAL, accounting for Latin
caballus and Spanish caballo. Hear them run across the heavenly pasture
CA LAB CA LAB CA LAB CA LAB ...
CA BEL CA BEL CA BEL CA BEL ...
CA BAL CA BAL CA BAL CA BAL ...
The three test cases form a cluster of hypotheses worth of being published
somewhere. Alas, the humanities are caught in a feudalistic bubble and wobble
along decades behind the present. Luckily we have the Usenet where new ideas
can be published and developed. Retrodictions in a historical science can't
be tested as predictions in natural sciences, but we can discuss them.
Give the IE explanations of the questions raised above, and if yours are
better, PIE wins, but if mine are more insightful and coherent and opening
avenues for further research, I have at least a right to go on and publish
my work.
This message earned me a rich harvest of seven replies that don't care at all
about the questions I raise in my triple test case, neither the name of Zeus,
nor the Indo-European homeland, nor words for the horse. You can't focus
and stay topic, instead you climb to meta-levels and drop verdicts from
above, ridiculing my work instead of denfending PIE, and this makes you
what I call kooks from the academic side of the fence.
Prove PIE to me, prove that aspa asva hippos equus have the same root in
*H1ekwos. I say that PIE and Nostratic are Magdalenian seen through frosted
glass; the contours are not clear enough to discern between derivatives of
phonetically similar but semantically different compounds, in the given case
derivatives of AS PAC, aspa and asva, and derivatives of AC PAS, hippos and
equus. Argue in favor of the PIE root, I'll defend my Magdalenin compounds.
If you again escape to meta-levels and spout invectives, you just confirm
my opinion: you feel omnipotent while you are the contrary.
I made you a polite demand, you ignored it.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-01-16 04:07:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by António Marques
I made you a polite demand, you ignored it.
That's French -- in English it's "a polite request."
Franz Gnaedinger
2018-01-17 07:54:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by António Marques
I made you a polite demand, you ignored it.
I just saw the "hypokook" and thought you are still not over my calling you
a hypochrist a couple of years ago. But it's true, you said it's up to me
what is a test for my "stuff." Not really, it is the same as a test for the
PIE stuff. You can't really test a PIE or Nostratic reconstruction, so all
we can do - as long as we have no new archaeological evidence, or a newly
deciphered ancient document - is to discuss a case where the two approaches
contradict each other. For example

theos / deus Zeus Proto-Indo-European
theos deus / Zeus Magdalenian

Gather arguments of the PIE view, then I propose the arguments for the
Magdalenian view, in a test thread that can grow as long as one pleases.
And the better arguments that explain more with less effort win for
the time being, until archaeological evidence emerges. Also, I always
told you guys that you can come up with a test case of your own: pick up
a big blunder of mine and give the better PIE explanation, then I will
either concede my blunder, or show you that it only appears to be a blunder,
again in a test thread.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-01-17 15:52:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by António Marques
I made you a polite demand, you ignored it.
I just saw the "hypokook" and thought you are still not over my calling you
a hypochrist a couple of years ago. But it's true, you said it's up to me
what is a test for my "stuff." Not really, it is the same as a test for the
PIE stuff. You can't really test a PIE or Nostratic reconstruction,
Of course you can. How do you imagine Tocharian, Hittite, or Lycian were identified as IE?
Because they fit exactly into reconstructed PIE.

How do you imagine Potawotami was identified as Central Algonquian? Because it fit exactly
into reconstructed PCA -- and exhibited a consonant cluster that Bloomfield postulated
must have existed to account for certain data in Fox, Cree, Menominee, and Ojibway.

Historical reconstruction of proto-languages WORKS.
Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
2018-01-17 18:07:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by António Marques
I made you a polite demand, you ignored it.
I just saw the "hypokook" and thought you are still not over my calling you
a hypochrist a couple of years ago. But it's true, you said it's up to me
what is a test for my "stuff." Not really, it is the same as a test for the
PIE stuff. You can't really test a PIE or Nostratic reconstruction,
Of course you can. How do you imagine Tocharian, Hittite, or Lycian were identified as IE?
Because they fit exactly into reconstructed PIE.
How do you imagine Potawotami was identified as Central Algonquian? Because it fit exactly
into reconstructed PCA -- and exhibited a consonant cluster that Bloomfield postulated
must have existed to account for certain data in Fox, Cree, Menominee, and Ojibway.
Historical reconstruction of proto-languages WORKS.
For Franz, as you should know from earlier experience, Fox, Cree, Menominee, Ojibway and Potawatomi are just "Red Indian languages".
Ruud Harmsen
2018-01-17 18:55:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
PIE stuff. You can't really test a PIE or Nostratic reconstruction,
Wed, 17 Jan 2018 07:52:01 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Of course you can. How do you imagine Tocharian, Hittite, or Lycian were identified as IE?
Because they fit exactly into reconstructed PIE.
How do you imagine Potawotami was identified as Central Algonquian? Because it fit exactly
into reconstructed PCA -- and exhibited a consonant cluster that Bloomfield postulated
must have existed to account for certain data in Fox, Cree, Menominee, and Ojibway.
Historical reconstruction of proto-languages WORKS.
Yes. One of the great achievements of science, along with exoplanets.
http://rudhar.com/nature/solinuni/ia.htm .
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Franz Gnaedinger
2018-01-19 09:22:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Of course you can. How do you imagine Tocharian, Hittite, or Lycian were identified as IE?
Because they fit exactly into reconstructed PIE.
How do you imagine Potawotami was identified as Central Algonquian? Because it fit exactly
into reconstructed PCA -- and exhibited a consonant cluster that Bloomfield postulated
must have existed to account for certain data in Fox, Cree, Menominee, and Ojibway.
Historical reconstruction of proto-languages WORKS.
Of course it works, but not absolutely, it is getting fuzzy when you go far
back in time. Also the C14 dating method works, but with a limited time
horizon comparable to the comparative method; when you go beyond you need
another method, for example thermoluminescence. And beyond PIE Magdalenian.
The problem in science is always the same: a successful theory is turned
into the truth. No, it still remains a theory that can be modified and
challenged by alternative theories. That is the case with Magdalenian.
I challenge PIE in certain aspects. For example PIE has the wrong concept
of early words. *h1ekwos hippos equus aspa asva is seen as one word right
from the beginning. No, I say, there was a pair of compounds: AS PAC aspa
asva, and AC PAS *h1ekwos hippos equus Epona hevonen. PIE is not the truth
but a theory, still a theory. X-rays of cristalline DNA were precious,
but the real solution was the double helix. Genetics would have gotten far
if we still depended on X-rays. Magdalenian provides the model for early
words and language that emerged from and was embedded in gestures and mimics
and body language and made use of the given context.
Franz Gnaedinger
2018-01-19 09:58:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Of course it works, but not absolutely, it is getting fuzzy when you go far
back in time. Also the C14 dating method works, but with a limited time
horizon comparable to the comparative method; when you go beyond you need
another method, for example thermoluminescence. And beyond PIE Magdalenian.
The problem in science is always the same: a successful theory is turned
into the truth. No, it still remains a theory that can be modified and
challenged by alternative theories. That is the case with Magdalenian.
I challenge PIE in certain aspects. For example PIE has the wrong concept
of early words. *h1ekwos hippos equus aspa asva is seen as one word right
from the beginning. No, I say, there was a pair of compounds: AS PAC aspa
asva, and AC PAS *h1ekwos hippos equus Epona hevonen. PIE is not the truth
but a theory, still a theory. X-rays of cristalline DNA were precious,
but the real solution was the double helix. Genetics would have gotten far
if we still depended on X-rays. Magdalenian provides the model for early
words and language that emerged from and was embedded in gestures and mimics
and body language and made use of the given context.
Sorry for the silly mistake. Genetics would n o t have gotten far if we
still depended on X-rays of cristalline DNA. And modern language is still
embedded in body language, among Norwegians no less than among Italians.
Now I hope we can end another meta-discussion and go for my triple test
case regarding the name of Zeus, the Indo-European homeland, and words
for the horse.
Ruud Harmsen
2018-01-19 11:47:33 UTC
Permalink
Fri, 19 Jan 2018 01:22:59 -0800 (PST): Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Historical reconstruction of proto-languages WORKS.
Of course it works, but not absolutely, it is getting fuzzy when you go far
back in time.
... which is why of Magdalanian litte or none is known. Period.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Peter T. Daniels
2018-01-19 13:58:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Of course you can. How do you imagine Tocharian, Hittite, or Lycian were identified as IE?
Because they fit exactly into reconstructed PIE.
How do you imagine Potawotami was identified as Central Algonquian? Because it fit exactly
into reconstructed PCA -- and exhibited a consonant cluster that Bloomfield postulated
must have existed to account for certain data in Fox, Cree, Menominee, and Ojibway.
Historical reconstruction of proto-languages WORKS.
Of course it works, but not absolutely, it is getting fuzzy when you go far
back in time.
As you will find stated in every book about the comparative method.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Also the C14 dating method works, but with a limited time
horizon comparable to the comparative method; when you go beyond you need
another method, for example thermoluminescence. And beyond PIE Magdalenian.
Historical reconstruction is testable (Athel gave you some parameters for testability). Your
fantasies are not.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
The problem in science is always the same: a successful theory is turned
into the truth.
So after all these decades, you still have no understanding of science.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
No, it still remains a theory that can be modified and
challenged by alternative theories. That is the case with Magdalenian.
No, it is not.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
I challenge PIE in certain aspects. For example PIE has the wrong concept
of early words. *h1ekwos hippos equus aspa asva is seen as one word right
Unfortunately for you, the PIE *h1ekwos is supported by dozens (at least) of other, non-related,
examples, and every one of your fantasies is a one-off.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
AS PAC aspa
asva, and AC PAS *h1ekwos hippos equus Epona hevonen. PIE is not the truth
but a theory, still a theory.
A better theory than your fantasies, because it is constantly tested.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
X-rays of cristalline DNA were precious,
but the real solution was the double helix. Genetics would have gotten far
if we still depended on X-rays. Magdalenian provides the model for early
words and language that emerged from and was embedded in gestures and mimics
and body language and made use of the given context.
It does no such thing, and never have you offered the slightest connection between "gestures
and mimics and body language" and phonemes.
Franz Gnaedinger
2018-01-20 10:04:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
It does no such thing, and never have you offered the slightest connection between "gestures
and mimics and body language" and phonemes.
A mere glance to a bush and a soft hissing sound can warn you of a snake
hiding there. You don't have to make a lot of words. But if a friend tells
me in summer on the beach about his work in a fish factory in Alaska, he
has to make a lot of words, because he can't refer to context - the situation
we are in is far away from the situation he was in and tries to describe
for me. Every linguist worth his salt knows that language emerged from
body language and gestures and mimics, and is still embedded in gestures.
Not in texting on the cell phone, but why do you think emojis are multiplying?
they add visual messages to mere words. Visual language, according to you,
does not exist. Body languge does not exist. I wonder whether you are an
MIT bot for the Usenet, copyright Boston 1985.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Unfortunately for you, the PIE *h1ekwos is supported by dozens (at least) of other, non-related,
examples, and every one of your fantasies is a one-off.
Tell me of those examples, otherwise your statement is yet another meta-
argument.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-01-20 14:42:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Peter T. Daniels
It does no such thing, and never have you offered the slightest connection between "gestures
and mimics and body language" and phonemes.
A mere glance to a bush and a soft hissing sound can warn you of a snake
hiding there. You don't have to make a lot of words.
What does hearing a snake have to do with human language?
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
But if a friend tells
me in summer on the beach about his work in a fish factory in Alaska, he
has to make a lot of words, because he can't refer to context - the situation
we are in is far away from the situation he was in and tries to describe
for me. Every linguist worth his salt knows that language emerged from
body language and gestures and mimics,
He does? You have clearly never read any of the burgeoning linguistic literature on the
origin of language.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
and is still embedded in gestures.
No one doubts that.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Not in texting on the cell phone, but why do you think emojis are multiplying?
they add visual messages to mere words. Visual language, according to you,
does not exist. Body languge does not exist.
Why do you continue to repeat this lie?
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
I wonder whether you are an
MIT bot for the Usenet, copyright Boston 1985.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Unfortunately for you, the PIE *h1ekwos is supported by dozens (at least) of other, non-related,
examples, and every one of your fantasies is a one-off.
Tell me of those examples, otherwise your statement is yet another meta-
argument.
So you have never actually read that book by Mallory and Adams, which is your sole source
of any information at all about Indo-European?
Franz Gnaedinger
2018-01-20 10:19:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
A better theory than your fantasies, because it is constantly tested.
Well then, go for my triple test case regarding the name of Zeus, the Indo-
European homeland, and words for the horse. If you can't do that on your own,
ask for help from your many friends among linguists: from some people who can
argue on the topic level instead of always escaping to meta-levels.

Ptolemaic astronomy worked very well for a thousand years, allowing millions
of sailors to savely navigate the Mediterranean. But it required ever more
epicycles and epicycles of epicycles, 111 in the time of Copernicus who
proposed a new model, the heliocentric sytstem which was improved by Kepler
and Galilei and Newton whose theory of gravity was a triumph that impressed
also linguists - if only we could formulate laws that allow us to trace
words back to Adam and Eve in the way astronomers trace back trajectories
of celestial bodies ... Epicycles were no longer necessary, and were
dismissed as being a wrong concept. Newton's astronomy allowed sailors to
navigate all oceans around the globe. A tiny anomaly in the trajectory of
the small planet Mercury was hoped to be explained by the presence of a not
yet discovered planet. But no such planet could be found. Then Einstein
proposed a new model wherein space and time become curved spacetime, and
his general reativity solved the Mercury problem - gave Einstein heart
palpitations for several hours. His theory is a triumph, allowing the
modern marvel of satellite navigation known as GPS. Yet it creates new
problems. Our galaxy the Milky Way should have attracted way more dwarf
galaxies than it actually did, so we can assume that 50 or 500 years from
now a new theory will replace the one by Einstein. Every theory is a theory,
never the truth. Also holds for PIE.
Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
2018-01-20 11:22:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Peter T. Daniels
A better theory than your fantasies, because it is constantly tested.
Well then, go for my triple test case regarding the name of Zeus, the Indo-
European homeland, and words for the horse.
You are again trying to shift the burden of proof. You are the one who is suggesting a novel theory. This means that you should know the old theory minutely and be able to explain where it goes wrong. However, you have failed miserably to 1) demonstrate a knowledge of the old theory and 2) demonstrate how exactly your theory is an improvement on them.

This has been explained to you many many times. However, your answer is always that the opponent is taking it to the meta level, which probably is your peculiar term for method, epistemology or Erkenntnistheorie. The fact that your "test cases" fail on this level is enough to dismiss them.

You are simply not fit to make science. This is bleedingly obvious to anybody. Peter T. Daniels and I can hardly agree on anything, but as regards you, we perfectly agree, and on similar grounds.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-01-20 14:43:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Peter T. Daniels
A better theory than your fantasies, because it is constantly tested.
Well then, go for my triple test case
Ok, what prediction does it make, and what sort of data would falsify that prediction?
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
regarding the name of Zeus, the Indo-
European homeland, and words for the horse.
Franz Gnaedinger
2018-01-23 07:52:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Ok, what prediction does it make, and what sort of data would falsify that prediction?
AS PAC Avestan aspa, Persian asb, Hieroglyphic Luvian esbe-, Armenian es
(esh), Lithuanian esva (eshva) 'mare' and asvienis (ashvienis) 'stallion'

AC PAS Greek hippos, Latin equus, Tocharian B yakwe, Spanish yegua 'mare',
Old Irish ech, Old English eoh, Gallo-Roman horse goddess Epona, Finnish
hevonen 'horse'

The second group of words don't have to pass the bottleneck of *h1ekwos,
they can be derived directly from AC PAS.

William Jones located the Indo-European homeland in greater Iran. Now we
can both confirm his opinion and make it more precise: the first IE homeland
was on the banks of the Amu Darya, centered in the Triangle of Termez and
Kunduz and Kurgan T'upe. A former poster told us that Lithuanian is the oldest
IE language (and was heavily mocked and massively killrated, even more than I).
Now it is fascinating to see that Lithuanian esva and asvienis belong to the
horse names derived from AS PAC of the first IE homeland on the banks of the
Amu Darya, while the other horse words derive from the compound of the
second and third IE homelands. And the closest derivative of AS PAC is found
in Avestan aspa, Avestan being a language of Eastern Iran. The region I
consider the first IE homeland became Bactria, rich in horses, Bac- a possible
derivative of Magdalenian PAC for horse. This would have been the region
where horses were tamed for the first time. In greater Iran. William Jones
was right with his educated guess about the IE homeland.

Prediction: the precise location of the first IE homeland will help to bring
together numerous fractions of the past. Also, archaeology on the banks of
the Amu Darya and in Central Asia might become a hot issue of archaeology
in the next decades.

I explained to you all that historical predictions can't be made, so we have
to discuss conflicting opinions: who has the better arguments and can explain
more with less effort? (Bacon's razor)
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-01-23 12:59:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Ok, what prediction does it make, and what sort of data would falsify that prediction?
[ ... ] Lots of verbiage skipped
Prediction: the precise location of the first IE homeland will help to bring
together numerous fractions of the past. Also, archaeology on the banks of
the Amu Darya and in Central Asia might become a hot issue of archaeology
in the next decades.
Those are not predictions. You need to say something like "If you
excavate on the banks of the Amu Darya you will find paintings that
clearly show that the inhabitants regarded the furriness of bears as
fundamental".
I explained to you all that historical predictions can't be made,
Nonsense. Did you read what I said about Tiktaalik?
so we have
to discuss conflicting opinions: who has the better arguments and can explain
more with less effort? (Bacon's razor)
--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2018-01-23 16:00:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Ok, what prediction does it make, and what sort of data would falsify that prediction?
AS PAC Avestan aspa, Persian asb, Hieroglyphic Luvian esbe-, Armenian es
(esh), Lithuanian esva (eshva) 'mare' and asvienis (ashvienis) 'stallion'
AC PAS Greek hippos, Latin equus, Tocharian B yakwe, Spanish yegua 'mare',
Old Irish ech, Old English eoh, Gallo-Roman horse goddess Epona, Finnish
hevonen 'horse'
The second group of words don't have to pass the bottleneck of *h1ekwos,
they can be derived directly from AC PAS.
William Jones located the Indo-European homeland in greater Iran. Now we
can both confirm his opinion and make it more precise: the first IE homeland
was on the banks of the Amu Darya, centered in the Triangle of Termez and
Kunduz and Kurgan T'upe. A former poster told us that Lithuanian is the oldest
IE language (and was heavily mocked and massively killrated, even more than I).
Now it is fascinating to see that Lithuanian esva and asvienis belong to the
horse names derived from AS PAC of the first IE homeland on the banks of the
Amu Darya, while the other horse words derive from the compound of the
second and third IE homelands. And the closest derivative of AS PAC is found
in Avestan aspa, Avestan being a language of Eastern Iran. The region I
consider the first IE homeland became Bactria, rich in horses, Bac- a possible
derivative of Magdalenian PAC for horse. This would have been the region
where horses were tamed for the first time. In greater Iran. William Jones
was right with his educated guess about the IE homeland.
Prediction: the precise location of the first IE homeland will help to bring
together numerous fractions of the past. Also, archaeology on the banks of
the Amu Darya and in Central Asia might become a hot issue of archaeology
in the next decades.
I explained to you all that historical predictions can't be made, so we have
to discuss conflicting opinions: who has the better arguments and can explain
more with less effort? (Bacon's razor)
So you recognize that you don't do science? Congratulations!
Franz Gnaedinger
2018-01-24 08:52:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
So you recognize that you don't do science? Congratulations!
The more such remarks instead of arguing on the topic level confirm me in my
opinion and make me go on with my alternative approach to early language
that I developed as a tool of hermeneutics, a tool that helps me deepen
my interpretations of Chauvet, Lascaux, Altamira, the Göbekli Tepe, Homer's
Odyssey, and parts of the Bible.
Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
2018-01-24 11:57:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Peter T. Daniels
So you recognize that you don't do science? Congratulations!
The more such remarks instead of arguing on the topic level confirm me in my
opinion
You can feel as confirmed as you want, but the fact is that you do not do science, and anyone with the most elementary idea of scientific method will give you the same answer.

In fact, knowing that Franz seems to have some idea of maths, at least enough to be taken seriously by real mathematicians, I find it even somewhat confusing that Franz is so innocent of scientific method.
Daud Deden
2018-01-25 00:35:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Peter T. Daniels
So you recognize that you don't do science? Congratulations!
The more such remarks instead of arguing on the topic level confirm me in my
opinion and make me go on with my alternative approach to early language
that I developed as a tool of hermeneutics, a tool that helps me deepen
my interpretations of Chauvet, Lascaux, Altamira, the Göbekli Tepe, Homer's
Odyssey, and parts of the Bible.
--

Crete engravings date to UP
https://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogspot.com/2018/01/petroglyphs-in-western-crete-dated-to.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed:+TheArchaeologyNewsNetwork+(The+Archaeology+News+Network)#fIKx2ViUibYDpP2y.97
Daud Deden
2018-01-25 14:55:21 UTC
Permalink
Franz: "And German Ross 'horse' derives from RYT for a spear thrower, archer, Greek rhytaer 'archer, protector'"
Post by Daud Deden
ryt from ra(y/ttle)/tattletail/atlatl/shuttle.r, re/ra & tla/flame.r ~ Shakespeare.
--
***@Aztec: flare, ray cf ***@Aztec: storm god, cf Raroc/***@Austl.: Storm? cf shaman rainshaker?
Ruud Harmsen
2018-01-25 16:13:29 UTC
Permalink
Thu, 25 Jan 2018 06:55:21 -0800 (PST): Daud Deden
Post by Daud Deden
Franz: "And German Ross 'horse' derives from RYT for a spear thrower, archer, Greek rhytaer 'archer, protector'"
No, it does not:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/horse#Etymology_1
From Middle English horse, hors, from Old English hors (“horse”),
metathesis from Proto-Germanic *hrussa (“horse”), from
Proto-Indo-European *?r?sos (“horse”), from Proto-Indo-European *?ers-
(“to run”).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/hruss%C4%85
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
2018-01-25 19:25:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Thu, 25 Jan 2018 06:55:21 -0800 (PST): Daud Deden
Post by Daud Deden
Franz: "And German Ross 'horse' derives from RYT for a spear thrower, archer, Greek rhytaer 'archer, protector'"
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/horse#Etymology_1
From Middle English horse, hors, from Old English hors (“horse”),
metathesis from Proto-Germanic *hrussa (“horse”), from
Proto-Indo-European *?r?sos (“horse”), from Proto-Indo-European *?ers-
(“to run”).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/hruss%C4%85
There is also the Modern Icelandic word hross, obviously related to both horse and Ross.
Franz Gnaedinger
2018-01-26 10:56:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ruud Harmsen
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/horse#Etymology_1
From Middle English horse, hors, from Old English hors (“horse”),
metathesis from Proto-Germanic *hrussa (“horse”), from
Proto-Indo-European *?r?sos (“horse”), from Proto-Indo-European *?ers-
(“to run”).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/hruss%C4%85
For the first time an argument on the topic level. Thank you. The PIE form
*?r?sos 'horse' goes along with my hypothesis

RYT emphatic ryss as part of the item Ross und Reiter, horse and rider

while the PIE form *?ers- 'to run' demands an explanation from my side.
I will look into the case at home and deliver my answer tomorrow.
Franz Gnaedinger
2018-01-26 11:17:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
For the first time an argument on the topic level. Thank you. The PIE form
*?r?sos 'horse' goes along with my hypothesis
RYT emphatic ryss as part of the item Ross und Reiter, horse and rider
while the PIE form *?ers- 'to run' demands an explanation from my side.
I will look into the case at home and deliver my answer tomorrow.
Quote from the etymology website:

horse (n.)

"solidungulate perissodactyl mammal of the family Equidæ and genus Equus" [Century Dictionary], Old English hors "horse," from Proto-Germanic *hursa- (source also of Old Norse hross, Old Frisian, Old Saxon hors, Middle Dutch ors, Dutch ros, Old High German hros, German Roß "horse"), of unknown origin. By some, connected to PIE root *kers- "to run," source of Latin currere "to run."

By some, connected to PIE root *kers- "to run" ... So that is a hypothesis,
not a commonly shared etymology, against which I pose mine. We can discuss
the case if you want. And there is a contradiction between Proto-Germanic
*hursa- and the Proto-Germanic *hrussa you gave. The case is not yet closed.
Seems to me there occurred a metathesis somewhere along the way.
Ruud Harmsen
2018-01-26 12:55:14 UTC
Permalink
Fri, 26 Jan 2018 03:17:55 -0800 (PST): Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
By some, connected to PIE root *kers- "to run" ... So that is a hypothesis,
not a commonly shared etymology, against which I pose mine. We can discuss
the case if you want. And there is a contradiction between Proto-Germanic
*hursa- and the Proto-Germanic *hrussa you gave.
Why a contradiction? The consonants, which make the skeleton of the
word, are the same.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
The case is not yet closed=
.
Seems to me there occurred a metathesis somewhere along the way.
You mix up the role of consonants and vowels in etymology.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Ruud Harmsen
2018-01-26 12:53:11 UTC
Permalink
Fri, 26 Jan 2018 02:56:15 -0800 (PST): Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Ruud Harmsen
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/horse#Etymology_1
From Middle English horse, hors, from Old English hors (“horse”),
metathesis from Proto-Germanic *hrussa (“horse”), from
Proto-Indo-European *?r?sos (“horse”), from Proto-Indo-European *?ers-
(“to run”).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Gerfmanic/hruss%C4%85
For the first time an argument on the topic level. Thank you. The PIE form
*?r?sos 'horse' goes along with my hypothesis
RYT emphatic ryss as part of the item Ross und Reiter, horse and rider
while the PIE form *?ers- 'to run' demands an explanation from my side.
I will look into the case at home and deliver my answer tomorrow.
It clearly shows that your etymology makes no sense, because your
alleged proto form, although much older than IE, is much closer to the
English, German and Dutch words (ros). That's because you ignore the
role of sound change, which is a proven phenomenon and which is what
IE reconstruction relies upon.

You only look at the r in the modern words, without knowing the h that
used to be before it.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Franz Gnaedinger
2018-01-27 08:42:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ruud Harmsen
It clearly shows that your etymology makes no sense, because your
alleged proto form, although much older than IE, is much closer to the
English, German and Dutch words (ros). That's because you ignore the
role of sound change, which is a proven phenomenon and which is what
IE reconstruction relies upon.
You only look at the r in the modern words, without knowing the h that
used to be before it.
--
Words oscillate. Having studied the problem at home I reached the conclusion
that *kers- 'run' might actually have turned the Ross line into the horse line
via a metathesis. PIE *kers- 'run' goes back to CER meaning stag and hind,
Latin cervus French cerf German Hirsch, also shaman and shamaness, consider
Cernunnos wearing stag antlers. The Divine Stag of Lascaux mythology guerded
entrances to and exits from the Underworld, securing a free passage for the
running sun horse and moon bull, while the Celtic shaman was responsible for
the daily return of sun horse and moon bull, as indicated by torques, on
some of them tiny winged horses or tiny bulls, gold for the sun horse and
silver for the moon bull. 4,800 years ago riding archers from the Eurasian
steppes arrived in Northern Europe. The Uffington White Horse cut into the
chalk landscape dates from the Bronze Age and might indicate a special
relation of shaman and horse in Britain. He was not only responsible for
the daily return of the sun horse but also cared for actual horses,
protecting their legs by magic incantations, and becoming what we now call
a horse whisperer. Thus the line of CER *kers- could well have influenced
the line of RYT Ritter, Ross und Reiter.

I shall explain this at more length in the Magdalenian thread, but first come
two messages on the Titans, gods and goddesses of the PIE belt between the
Göbekli Tepe in the Neolithic 1 and Central Asia in the Early Bronze Age,
first IE homeland on the banks of the Amu Darya, centered in the triangle
of Termez and Kunduz and Kurgan T'upe.
Ruud Harmsen
2018-01-27 10:19:23 UTC
Permalink
Sat, 27 Jan 2018 00:42:14 -0800 (PST): Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Ruud Harmsen
It clearly shows that your etymology makes no sense, because your
alleged proto form, although much older than IE, is much closer to the
English, German and Dutch words (ros). That's because you ignore the
role of sound change, which is a proven phenomenon and which is what
IE reconstruction relies upon.
You only look at the r in the modern words, without knowing the h that
used to be before it.
--
Words oscillate.
No, they don't.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Having studied the problem at home I reached the conclusion
that *kers- 'run' might actually have turned the Ross line into the horse line
via a metathesis.
Very unlikely. Not attested in real languages. Metathesis sometimes
happened, in Portuguese for example (flor vs. frol, etc., also hros
vs. hors in English) but it cannot explain how kers became ross.
Mainstream etymology however can and does.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
PIE *kers- 'run' goes back to CER meaning stag and hind,
Latin cervus French cerf German Hirsch,
OK, a test case.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cervus#Etymology
No. Similar, but different.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Hirsch#Etymology
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/herutaz

Not the same root as
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/%E1%B8%B1ers-
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
also shaman and shamaness, consider
Cernunnos wearing stag antlers. The Divine Stag of Lascaux mythology guerded
entrances to and exits from the Underworld, securing a free passage for the
running sun horse and moon bull, while the Celtic shaman was responsible for
the daily return of sun horse and moon bull, as indicated by torques, on
some of them tiny winged horses or tiny bulls, gold for the sun horse and
silver for the moon bull. 4,800 years ago riding archers from the Eurasian
steppes arrived in Northern Europe. The Uffington White Horse cut into the
chalk landscape dates from the Bronze Age and might indicate a special
relation of shaman and horse in Britain. He was not only responsible for
the daily return of the sun horse but also cared for actual horses,
protecting their legs by magic incantations, and becoming what we now call
a horse whisperer. Thus the line of CER *kers- could well have influenced
the line of RYT Ritter, Ross und Reiter.
Unfounded speculation, very unlikely.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Peter T. Daniels
2018-01-27 14:13:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Sat, 27 Jan 2018 00:42:14 -0800 (PST): Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Ruud Harmsen
It clearly shows that your etymology makes no sense, because your
alleged proto form, although much older than IE, is much closer to the
English, German and Dutch words (ros). That's because you ignore the
role of sound change, which is a proven phenomenon and which is what
IE reconstruction relies upon.
You only look at the r in the modern words, without knowing the h that
used to be before it.
Words oscillate.
No, they don't.
Well, he's never actually said what he thinks that means, so we can't be sure.

I suppose to do so would be "metadiscussion" and thus beneath his dignity.
Daud Deden
2018-01-27 20:11:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Sat, 27 Jan 2018 00:42:14 -0800 (PST): Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Ruud Harmsen
It clearly shows that your etymology makes no sense, because your
alleged proto form, although much older than IE, is much closer to the
English, German and Dutch words (ros). That's because you ignore the
role of sound change, which is a proven phenomenon and which is what
IE reconstruction relies upon.
You only look at the r in the modern words, without knowing the h that
used to be before it.
--
Words oscillate.
No, they don't.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Having studied the problem at home I reached the conclusion
that *kers- 'run' might actually have turned the Ross line into the horse line
via a metathesis.
Very unlikely. Not attested in real languages. Metathesis sometimes
happened, in Portuguese for example (flor vs. frol, etc., also hros
vs. hors in English) but it cannot explain how kers became ross.
Mainstream etymology however can and does.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
PIE *kers- 'run' goes back to CER meaning stag and hind,
Latin cervus French cerf German Hirsch,
OK, a test case.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cervus#Etymology
No. Similar, but different.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Hirsch#Etymology
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/herutaz
***@Malay: deer
***@Malay: horse

hrussa thrust.spear (pike/lance/joust-join.t-jambo:meeting-***@Mbuti: thicket)

hross toss-throw.dart (launch/atlatl/eject/shuttle-Shake(back & forth, not side to side)/shoot/xyua)

Wiki: Indeed, the term joust meant "a meeting" and referred to arranged combat in general, not just the jousting with lances. At some point in the 14th century, a cloth barrier was introduced as an option to separate the contestants. This barrier was presumably known as tilt in Middle English (a term with an original meaning of "a cloth covering").
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Not the same root as
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/%E1%B8%B1ers-
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
also shaman and shamaness, consider
Cernunnos wearing stag antlers. The Divine Stag of Lascaux mythology guerded
entrances to and exits from the Underworld, securing a free passage for the
running sun horse and moon bull, while the Celtic shaman was responsible for
the daily return of sun horse and moon bull, as indicated by torques, on
some of them tiny winged horses or tiny bulls, gold for the sun horse and
silver for the moon bull. 4,800 years ago riding archers from the Eurasian
steppes arrived in Northern Europe. The Uffington White Horse cut into the
chalk landscape dates from the Bronze Age and might indicate a special
relation of shaman and horse in Britain. He was not only responsible for
the daily return of the sun horse but also cared for actual horses,
protecting their legs by magic incantations, and becoming what we now call
a horse whisperer. Thus the line of CER *kers- could well have influenced
the line of RYT Ritter, Ross und Reiter.
Unfounded speculation, very unlikely.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Arnaud Fournet
2018-01-27 21:12:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Sat, 27 Jan 2018 00:42:14 -0800 (PST): Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Ruud Harmsen
It clearly shows that your etymology makes no sense, because your
alleged proto form, although much older than IE, is much closer to the
English, German and Dutch words (ros). That's because you ignore the
role of sound change, which is a proven phenomenon and which is what
IE reconstruction relies upon.
You only look at the r in the modern words, without knowing the h that
used to be before it.
--
Words oscillate.
No, they don't.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Having studied the problem at home I reached the conclusion
that *kers- 'run' might actually have turned the Ross line into the horse line
via a metathesis.
Very unlikely. Not attested in real languages. Metathesis sometimes
happened, in Portuguese for example (flor vs. frol, etc., also hros
vs. hors in English) but it cannot explain how kers became ross.
I disagree here.
zero-grade *krs- > *hurs- > metathetic *hros-
The position of r in Old English is not always stable, like in bryd > bird.
A.
Franz Gnaedinger
2018-01-29 08:49:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Very unlikely. Not attested in real languages. Metathesis sometimes
happened, in Portuguese for example (flor vs. frol, etc., also hros
vs. hors in English) but it cannot explain how kers became ross.
Mainstream etymology however can and does.
Well, show me how it does. How do you explain the two Proto-Germanic forms
*hrussa and *hursa for the horse? Here is my version that I worked out over
the weekend, also counts for the test case regarding the stag.

English horse (an assimilation?)

RYT meaning spear thrower, archer, Greek rhytaer 'archer, protector',
would have accounted for German Ritter 'knight', originally a riding archer,
and for the item Ross und Reiter 'horse and rider', Ross an emphatic form
analogous to TYR emphatic Middle Helladic Sseyr (Phaistos Disc, Derk Ohlenroth)
Doric Sseus (Wilhelm Larfeld) Homeric Zeus.

The Celtic-Germanic isogloss *reidh- 'ride' led from RYT to Reiter and Ritter,
while Proto-Germanic offers both *hrussa and *hursa for the horse. Are they
the same word separated by a semantically irrelevant metathesis, ore are they
derivatives of two entirely different words assimilated in naming the same
animal?

Mallory and Adams 2006 mention that *kers- 'run' was perhaps nominalized in
the word familiy of New English horse.

The origin of *kers- 'run' might have been CER meaning stag or hind, also
shaman or shamaness, consider Cernunnos wearing stag antlers

RYT rhytaer (hrytaer) *hrussa Ross

RYT *reidh- Reiter, Ross und Reiter, Ritter

CER *kers- (care) *hursa horse ??

The stag is an elegant runner. His running capacity must have been most
impressive in the giant stag megaceros, emblem of the arch shaman and
arch shamaness.

Lascaux and Altamira suggest a Divine or Cosmic Stag, and a Divine Hind or
Hind Woman. CER KOS would have been the cosmic stag, his antlers appearing
in the summer constellations we know as Sagittarius and Scorpio. His name
would account for Latin quercus 'oak' and Gaulish érkos 'oak forest',
owing to the similar ways that oak and stag antler branch. His consort
would have been the Divine Hind CER -: I -: or CER LIL who called life
into existence, also moon bulls, thus creating time, lunations or synodic
months, periods of 30 29 30 29 30 29 30 29 30 29 30 ... days. Her image
as Hind Woman was the dominating winter constellation across the sky from
Sagittarius and Scorpio: ORE EON Orion, she on the beautiful ORE bank or
shore EON of the heavenly CA river or lake LAK together CA LAK overformed
by Galaxy 'Milky Way'.

CER KOS would have been implored for running power: May he give the sun
horse and moon bull the force to run all day and night long! May he and
his helpers guard the entrances to and exits from the Underworld, passed
by the sun horse and moon bull on their daily journey, securing their way
so they can run freely, without being held up.

A group of red stags with oversized antlers are seen in the rotunda of
Lascaux, facing a white bull and a red mare, both running side by side in
clockwise direction. The glorious rotunda symbolizes midsummer, the red
mare rising above the ledge the midsummer sun rising above the horizon,
and the proud bull by her side a full moon occurring at the same time,
ideal start of an eight-year period in the lunisolar calendar of Lascaux.
Apparently the stags guard an exit from the Underworld, granting a safe
passage from the realm below to the sky above. (They are also astronomers
observing sun and moon; the arrows and lances aimed at the animals being
astronomocial ideograms.)

Cernunnos wearing stag antlers would have been a descendant of the Divine
Stag. He was one of the oldest Celtic gods, close to the supreme Dagda,
the good god in the sense of the able god (Barry Cunliffe), from the
emphatic doubling DhAG DhAG able able. The Romans equated Cernunnos with
none less than Jupiter. The Celtic lord of all the animals is depicted
on the silver cauldron from Gundestrup, Denmark, seated between a stag
and further animals, wearing a torque around his neck, and holding
another torque in his raised right hand, between himself and the stag.
The torque symbolized the daily orbit of the sun horse and moon bull,
as indicated by tiny winged horses on a golden torque, and by bulls on
several silver torques - gold for the sun, silver for the moon. Cernunnos
must have cared for the cosmic order, making the world go on, giving the
sun horse and moon bull the stamina to climb the sky and traverse the
Underworld and return again on their daily journeys, running running
running, always running, day in day out.

4,800 years ago riders from the steppes between the Caspian Sea and the
Black Sea arrived in Northern Europe (result of a genetic screening).
A shaman in the service of the Divine Stag was given a new task, not
only imploring his heavenly patron for the daily return of the sun horse,
but also caring for actual horses, protecting their legs with magic formulae,
and then, slowly, that shaman would have become what we now call a horse
whisperer ...

CER might well have accounted for *kers- run', also for care, then for
*hursa and the word family of English horse, in assimiltion to RYT
rhytaer (hrytaer) *hrussa Ross, part of the item Ross und Reiter 'horse
and rider', Reiter and the more emphatic Ritter via *reidh- 'ride'.
Ruud Harmsen
2018-01-29 20:13:24 UTC
Permalink
Mon, 29 Jan 2018 00:49:07 -0800 (PST): Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Very unlikely. Not attested in real languages. Metathesis sometimes
happened, in Portuguese for example (flor vs. frol, etc., also hros
vs. hors in English) but it cannot explain how kers became ross.
Mainstream etymology however can and does.
Well, show me how it does. How do you explain the two Proto-Germanic forms
*hrussa and *hursa for the horse?
Vowels can easily jump over consonants. But consonants nearly always
stay in the same order.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Here is my version that I worked out over
the weekend, also counts for the test case regarding the stag.
English horse (an assimilation?)
RYT meaning spear thrower, archer,
Where is the Germanic h, which in IE was some sort of k. In your,
allegedly much older, Magdalanian RYT, it is missing. So how did it
arise? Such things just don't happen in the history of languages.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Greek rhytaer 'archer, protector',
would have accounted for German Ritter
So your alleged pre-IE form happens to have the same consonant
structure, containing an r and a t, although many thousands of years
are in between.

That alone makes your theory improbable.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
'knight', originally a riding archer,
and for the item Ross und Reiter 'horse and rider', Ross an emphatic form
analogous to TYR emphatic Middle Helladic Sseyr (Phaistos Disc, Derk Ohlenroth)
Doric Sseus (Wilhelm Larfeld) Homeric Zeus.
The Celtic-Germanic isogloss *reidh- 'ride' led from RYT to Reiter and Ritter,
while Proto-Germanic offers both *hrussa and *hursa for the horse. Are they
the same word separated by a semantically irrelevant metathesis, ore are they
derivatives of two entirely different words assimilated in naming the same
animal?
I don't know. If I want to know, I'd consult Wiktionary or the sources
mentioned there.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Mallory and Adams 2006 mention that *kers- 'run' was perhaps nominalized in
the word familiy of New English horse.
The origin of *kers- 'run' might have been CER meaning stag or hind, also
shaman or shamaness, consider Cernunnos wearing stag antlers
RYT rhytaer (hrytaer) *hrussa Ross
A rh/hr metathesis just didn't and doesn't happen like that. Too
unlikely, never attested in real examples of word developments through
the ages.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Franz Gnaedinger
2018-01-30 07:59:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Mon, 29 Jan 2018 00:49:07 -0800 (PST): Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Very unlikely. Not attested in real languages. Metathesis sometimes
happened, in Portuguese for example (flor vs. frol, etc., also hros
vs. hors in English) but it cannot explain how kers became ross.
Mainstream etymology however can and does.
Well, show me how it does. How do you explain the two Proto-Germanic forms
*hrussa and *hursa for the horse?
Vowels can easily jump over consonants. But consonants nearly always
stay in the same order.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Here is my version that I worked out over
the weekend, also counts for the test case regarding the stag.
English horse (an assimilation?)
RYT meaning spear thrower, archer,
Where is the Germanic h, which in IE was some sort of k. In your,
allegedly much older, Magdalanian RYT, it is missing. So how did it
arise? Such things just don't happen in the history of languages.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Greek rhytaer 'archer, protector',
would have accounted for German Ritter
So your alleged pre-IE form happens to have the same consonant
structure, containing an r and a t, although many thousands of years
are in between.
That alone makes your theory improbable.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
'knight', originally a riding archer,
and for the item Ross und Reiter 'horse and rider', Ross an emphatic form
analogous to TYR emphatic Middle Helladic Sseyr (Phaistos Disc, Derk Ohlenroth)
Doric Sseus (Wilhelm Larfeld) Homeric Zeus.
The Celtic-Germanic isogloss *reidh- 'ride' led from RYT to Reiter and Ritter,
while Proto-Germanic offers both *hrussa and *hursa for the horse. Are they
the same word separated by a semantically irrelevant metathesis, ore are they
derivatives of two entirely different words assimilated in naming the same
animal?
I don't know. If I want to know, I'd consult Wiktionary or the sources
mentioned there.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Mallory and Adams 2006 mention that *kers- 'run' was perhaps nominalized in
the word familiy of New English horse.
The origin of *kers- 'run' might have been CER meaning stag or hind, also
shaman or shamaness, consider Cernunnos wearing stag antlers
RYT rhytaer (hrytaer) *hrussa Ross
A rh/hr metathesis just didn't and doesn't happen like that. Too
unlikely, never attested in real examples of word developments through
the ages.
I asked a clear question and got no answer: are the two Proto-Germanic forms
*hrussa and *hursa the same word, separated by a semantically irrelevant
metathesis? or can they be derivatives of two entirely different words
assimilated in naming the same animal?
Ruud Harmsen
2018-01-30 08:42:16 UTC
Permalink
Mon, 29 Jan 2018 23:59:23 -0800 (PST): Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
I asked a clear question and got no answer: are the two Proto-Germanic forms
*hrussa and *hursa the same word, separated by a semantically irrelevant
metathesis?
Most likely, yes.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
or can they be derivatives of two entirely different words
assimilated in naming the same animal?
Possible, but unlikely. More possible if one is a loan word and the
other is not. Very unlikely if both are direct heritage.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Franz Gnaedinger
2018-01-31 08:27:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Most likely, yes.
Your line of development would then be

(unknown origin) *hrussa/*hursa Ross/horse

Until now also I thought Ross and horse are the same word, deriving from RYT
meaning spear thrower, archer, accounting for Greek rhytaer (hrytaer) 'archer,
protector', and then, with the taming of the horse and riding archers
branching into Ross und Reiter, as explained in the previous messages.
But now that I found a semantic bridge between CER meaning stag (cervus
cerf Hirsch) thanks to your intervention, I favor two words whose derivatives
were assimilated in naming the same animal, the scond line being CER *kers-
*hursa horse, the animal whose running power and stamina are granted by the
Cosmic Stag, Magdalenian anticipation of the Ptolemaic primum mobile.
Ruud Harmsen
2018-01-31 14:23:04 UTC
Permalink
Wed, 31 Jan 2018 00:27:28 -0800 (PST): Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Most likely, yes.
Your line of development would then be
(unknown origin) *hrussa/*hursa Ross/horse
Until now also I thought Ross and horse are the same word, deriving from RYT
meaning spear thrower, archer, accounting for Greek rhytaer (hrytaer) 'archer,
protector',
A Germanic [h] or [x], which corresponds to an IE [k], does not
correspond to [h] in Greek. (Moreover, rh in Greek probably wasn't the
combination or r and h, but a certain kind of r, aspirated or
voiceless; compare rh and r in Modern Welsh, and rr/r in modern
Spanish.)

A h in Greek corresponds to s in other IE languages, cf. English same
versus Greek homo, Latin sexa and Greek hexa, Latin semi and Greek
hemi, etc. etc.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Franz Gnaedinger
2018-02-01 07:19:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ruud Harmsen
A Germanic [h] or [x], which corresponds to an IE [k], does not
correspond to [h] in Greek. (Moreover, rh in Greek probably wasn't the
combination or r and h, but a certain kind of r, aspirated or
voiceless; compare rh and r in Modern Welsh, and rr/r in modern
Spanish.)
A h in Greek corresponds to s in other IE languages, cf. English same
versus Greek homo, Latin sexa and Greek hexa, Latin semi and Greek
hemi, etc. etc.
You can't fix every detail before you know the long lines and big picture.
The alleged sound laws are but rules, sound algebra has a limited range of
validity. Kudos to the PIE scholar who traced English horse back via *hursa
to *kers- 'run' (with a tiny roof on the k). The big stag in the Axial Gallery
of Lascaux, near the midsummer hall, proves that idea right: he was the prime
mover of Magdalenian mythology, not running himself (his legs unfinished)
but bestowing the running gift for example on the horse, his energy making
the horse just before him dance or even prance

CER KOS CER S *kers- 'run' *hursa horse

The English horse would originally have been a running animal; the German
horse called Ross part of the item Ross und Reiter, in the origin a riding
archer. Note well that Magdalenian RYT meaning spear thrower, archer, had
a derivative in Greek rhytaer (hrytaer) 'archer, protector' but branched
into *reidh- Reiter Ritter and *hrussa Ross. A branching word is not the
same as a phonetically shifting word that keeps its meaning unchanged,
semantic branching involves tiny phonetical shifts.
Ruud Harmsen
2018-02-01 09:07:41 UTC
Permalink
Wed, 31 Jan 2018 23:19:20 -0800 (PST): Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
You can't fix every detail before you know the long lines and big picture.
The alleged sound laws are but rules, sound algebra has a limited range of
validity.
Yes, but the wild speculations you prefer to replace them with, have
no validity at all.
Franz Gnaedinger
2018-02-02 08:33:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Yes, but the wild speculations you prefer to replace them with, have
no validity at all.
Wild speculations? careful interpretations of cave art, the rich legacy
of the last Ice Age.
Ruud Harmsen
2018-02-02 08:48:40 UTC
Permalink
Fri, 2 Feb 2018 00:33:43 -0800 (PST): Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Yes, but the wild speculations you prefer to replace them with, have
no validity at all.
Wild speculations? careful interpretations of cave art, the rich legacy
of the last Ice Age.
There is no known or knowable connexion between cave art and language.
It is not even certain, although likely, that the cave artisans
already had language. But if so, we do not know which language family
their language or languages (why must it be the same in all cases?)
belonged to. No documents, no inscriptions. Nothing.

So all we can do is to admit that we do not know. That is science.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Franz Gnaedinger
2018-02-03 08:12:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ruud Harmsen
There is no known or knowable connexion between cave art and language.
It is not even certain, although likely, that the cave artisans
already had language. But if so, we do not know which language family
their language or languages (why must it be the same in all cases?)
belonged to. No documents, no inscriptions. Nothing.
So all we can do is to admit that we do not know. That is science.
The sciences always profit from the combination of seemingly separated fields.
René Descartes combined the formerly uncorrelated mathematical disciplines of
geometry and algebra and thus laid the foundation for the powerful tool of
analysis. Recognizing elliptic equations and modular forms was two faces
of the same medal was a deciding step toward the proof of Fremat's Last
Conjecture meanwhile Theorem - if an elliptic equation is too hard to solve,
the corresponding modular form is often quite easy, and vice versa.
Electricity and magnetism had been unrelated phenomena but came together
in electromagnetis whitout which no computer would run. Apart from gravity,
all forces of nature were united in Quantum-Electro-Dynamics QED, the most
accurate and best tested scientific theory we have. Einstein united time
and space in spacetime. And so on.

As for me, I am engaged in the often ridiculed or simply ignored field of
hermeneutics, my aim being to combine the rich legacy of the Ice Age with
the study of early language. You are the first member of sci.lang who went
for a part of my triple test case regarding the name of Zeus, the Indo-
European homeland, and words for the horse. You made me delve deeper into
Magdalenian mythology, astronomy and cosmology, for which I thank you.
Also, you did a favor to PIE that stood an archaeological test with flying
colors: the two Proto-Germanic forms *hrussa and *hursa for the same animal
are entirely justified.
Franz Gnaedinger
2018-02-07 09:29:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
The sciences always profit from the combination of seemingly separated fields.
René Descartes combined the formerly uncorrelated mathematical disciplines of
geometry and algebra and thus laid the foundation for the powerful tool of
analysis. Recognizing elliptic equations and modular forms was two faces
of the same medal was a deciding step toward the proof of Fremat's Last
Conjecture meanwhile Theorem - if an elliptic equation is too hard to solve,
the corresponding modular form is often quite easy, and vice versa.
Electricity and magnetism had been unrelated phenomena but came together
in electromagnetis whitout which no computer would run. Apart from gravity,
all forces of nature were united in Quantum-Electro-Dynamics QED, the most
accurate and best tested scientific theory we have. Einstein united time
and space in spacetime. And so on.
As for me, I am engaged in the often ridiculed or simply ignored field of
hermeneutics, my aim being to combine the rich legacy of the Ice Age with
the study of early language. You are the first member of sci.lang who went
for a part of my triple test case regarding the name of Zeus, the Indo-
European homeland, and words for the horse. You made me delve deeper into
Magdalenian mythology, astronomy and cosmology, for which I thank you.
Also, you did a favor to PIE that stood an archaeological test with flying
colors: the two Proto-Germanic forms *hrussa and *hursa for the same animal
are entirely justified.
Basque zaldi 'horse' might have turned a sounding river into a load-bearing
river then a load-bearing horse.

Proto-Basque *sal-dun (long u) 'packhorse, literally load-bearing' inspires
the Magdalenian reading SAL TON for a river that runs through the watery
ground SAL of a valley or plain and makes itself heard TON as murmuring brook
rushing river thundering waterfall, then referred to a load-bearing river,
and then made a leap to load-bearing horses.

400,000 years ago, Homo erectus traversed the Wallace Strait, Indonesia,
a deep sea drift valley never less than seventeen kilometers wide, on bamboo
rafts. In Celtic times the River Seine was a busy trade route for rafts and
boats transporting commodities - a load-bearing waterway.

SAL for the watery ground of a valley or plain named rivers like the Sihl
and Zihl/Thiele in Switzerland. Pliny, in his Natural History, mentions
that in a region of Spain horses were called Thielodones. Ancient Hispanic
has t(h)ieldo 'horse', Ibero-Latin cieldo, and finally Basque zaldi

SAL Sihl Zihl/Thiele Thielo- t(h)iel- ciel- zal-

Magdalenian REO meaning river named the Greek fertility goddess Rhea, Minoan
Rheia, in the light of Magdalenian a river goddess who made a valley fertile.
She named rivers like the ancient Rha modern Volga, then three rivers that
spring in the Swiss Alps, not far from each other: Rhenus Rhine, Rhodanus
Rhone, and Reuss. Rhea was the mother of Zeus, Poseidon, and Hades. Her
Gallo-Roman alter ego had been the horse goddess Epona who rode a horse
in lady fahion, accompanied by a bird evoking the eagle of Zeus, by a foal
evoking the horse of Poseidon, and by a dog evoking the dog of Hades.
Her main sanctuary was Alesia near one of the springs of the River Seine.

Poseidon was originally a river god, PAD AD DA Doric Poteidas, PAS TON
Greek Poseidon: he and his horses move PAD (activity of feet) along rivers
that flow toward AD the sea while coming from DA hills or mountains, and
everywhere PAS they come to, they make themselves heard TON - rushing water
braying horses, thundering waterfalls thundering hooves of a running herd
of horses, their bobbing heads undulating like waves ... Poseidon himself
could turn into a stallion. A gold ring from Mokhlos, Minoan Crete, shows
a boat on a river with the bow in the shape of a horse's head and neck.

TON became -don in Poseidon, named rivers like the Don and Donau/Danube,
and accounts for Proto-Indo-European *dhen- 'run, flow' - horses run,
water flows. A further derivative of TON would have been Proto-Basque
*dun (long u) 'load', first a load carried by a river, then a load carried
by a horse.

Living near a river, trading all kinds of goods on rafts and in boats,
then working with packhorses, allowed an easy transition form the sounding
river to the load-bearing river to load-bearing horses. We have then

SAL for the watery ground of a valley
rivers like Sihl Zihl/Thiele
Proto-Basque *sal 'load'
first carried by a river, then by horses

TON for to make oneself heard
rivers like Don Donau/Danube
murmuring rushing thundering
PIE *dhen- 'run, flow'
Proto-Basque *dun (long u) 'bearing'
first a river then a horse bearing a load

By the way, Basque espa-ra 'horsefly' is akin to Avestan aspa 'horse',
from AS PAC, upward AS horse PAC, originally small and sturdy pony-like
horses used for transporting loads up the slope of a hill or a mountain.
Daud Deden
2018-02-08 21:56:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
The sciences always profit from the combination of seemingly separated fields.
René Descartes combined the formerly uncorrelated mathematical disciplines of
geometry and algebra and thus laid the foundation for the powerful tool of
analysis. Recognizing elliptic equations and modular forms was two faces
of the same medal was a deciding step toward the proof of Fremat's Last
Conjecture meanwhile Theorem - if an elliptic equation is too hard to solve,
the corresponding modular form is often quite easy, and vice versa.
Electricity and magnetism had been unrelated phenomena but came together
in electromagnetis whitout which no computer would run. Apart from gravity,
all forces of nature were united in Quantum-Electro-Dynamics QED, the most
accurate and best tested scientific theory we have. Einstein united time
and space in spacetime. And so on.
As for me, I am engaged in the often ridiculed or simply ignored field of
hermeneutics, my aim being to combine the rich legacy of the Ice Age with
the study of early language. You are the first member of sci.lang who went
for a part of my triple test case regarding the name of Zeus, the Indo-
European homeland, and words for the horse. You made me delve deeper into
Magdalenian mythology, astronomy and cosmology, for which I thank you.
Also, you did a favor to PIE that stood an archaeological test with flying
colors: the two Proto-Germanic forms *hrussa and *hursa for the same animal
are entirely justified.
Basque zaldi 'horse' might have turned a sounding river into a load-bearing
river then a load-bearing horse.

[DD: Possible link to Haldi, god of Urartu/mountains of Ararat]

Proto-Basque *sal-dun (long u) 'packhorse,

[DD: dun.n/dunne-colored horse?]

literally load-bearing' inspires
the Magdalenian reading SAL TON for a river that runs through the watery
ground SAL of a valley or plain and makes itself heard TON as murmuring brook
rushing river thundering waterfall,

[DD: Carlos L. claimed TON = sun, as in Aztec Tonatiuh sungod, and Tun.dra Sunland (no trees), I claim eden/adan/atra/atlan/utna]

referred to a load-bearing river,
and then made a leap to load-bearing horses.
[DD: loaded/laden/bill of lading]

400,000 years ago, Homo erectus traversed the Wallace Strait, Indonesia,

[DD: Homo habilis -> Flores]

a deep sea drift valley never less than seventeen kilometers wide, on bamboo
rafts.

Bamboo rafts require advanced binding (AMHsapiens), how long does it take a child or chimp to tie a shoelace or a taut knot without an experienced coach to mimic?

Celtic times the River Seine was a busy trade route for rafts and
boats transporting commodities - a load-bearing waterway.

SAL for the watery ground of a valley or plain named rivers like the Sihl
and Zihl/Thiele in Switzerland. Pliny, in his Natural History, mentions
that in a region of Spain horses were called Thielodones. Ancient Hispanic
has t(h)ieldo 'horse', Ibero-Latin cieldo, and finally Basque zaldi

SAL Sihl Zihl/Thiele Thielo- t(h)iel- ciel- zal-

Magdalenian REO meaning river named the Greek fertility goddess Rhea, Minoan
Rheia, in the light of Magdalenian a river goddess who made a valley fertile.
She named rivers like the ancient Rha modern Volga, then three rivers that
spring in the Swiss Alps, not far from each other: Rhenus Rhine, Rhodanus
Rhone, and Reuss. Rhea was the mother of Zeus, Poseidon, and Hades. Her
Gallo-Roman alter ego had been the horse goddess Epona who rode a horse
in lady fahion, accompanied by a bird evoking the eagle of Zeus, by a foal
evoking the horse of Poseidon, and by a dog evoking the dog of Hades.

[DD: I mentioned earlier a goddess always accompanied by her dog, figurine found in an Anatolian trade city.]

Her main sanctuary was Alesia near one of the springs of the River Seine.

Poseidon was originally a river god, PAD AD DA Doric Poteidas, PAS TON
Greek Poseidon: he and his horses move PAD (activity of feet) along rivers
that flow toward AD the sea while coming from DA hills or mountains, and
everywhere PAS they come to, they make themselves heard TON - rushing water
braying horses, thundering waterfalls thundering hooves of a running herd
of horses, their bobbing heads undulating like waves ... Poseidon himself
could turn into a stallion. A gold ring from Mokhlos, Minoan Crete, shows
a boat on a river with the bow in the shape of a horse's head and neck.

[DD: Others have deer heads]


TON became -don in Poseidon, named rivers like the Don and Donau/Danube,
and accounts for Proto-Indo-European *dhen- 'run, flow' - horses run,
water flows.

[DD: Dheg, dhen drain (theele?].

further derivative of TON would have been Proto-Basque
*dun (long u) 'load', first a load carried by a river, then a load carried
by a horse.

Living near a river, trading all kinds of goods on rafts and in boats,
then working with packhorses, allowed an easy transition form the sounding
river to the load-bearing river to load-bearing horses. We have then

SAL for the watery ground of a valley
rivers like Sihl Zihl/Thiele
Proto-Basque *sal 'load'

DD: sal ~ ***@Sumer: nourish]

first carried by a river, then by horses

[DD: you forgot dogs.]


TON for to make oneself heard
rivers like Don Donau/Danube
murmuring rushing thundering
PIE *dhen- 'run, flow'
Proto-Basque *dun (long u) 'bearing'
first a river then a horse bearing a load

By the way, Basque espa-ra 'horsefly' is akin to Avestan aspa 'horse',
from AS PAC, upward AS horse PAC, originally small and sturdy pony-like
horses used for transporting loads up the slope of a hill or a mountain.
Franz Gnaedinger
2018-02-10 09:33:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Basque zaldi 'horse' might have turned a sounding river into a load-bearing
river then a load-bearing horse.
Proto-Basque *sal-dun (long u) 'packhorse, literally load-bearing' inspires
the Magdalenian reading SAL TON for a river that runs through the watery
ground SAL of a valley or plain and makes itself heard TON as murmuring brook
rushing river thundering waterfall, then referred to a load-bearing river,
and then made a leap to load-bearing horses.
400,000 years ago, Homo erectus traversed the Wallace Strait, Indonesia,
a deep sea drift valley never less than seventeen kilometers wide, on bamboo
rafts. In Celtic times the River Seine was a busy trade route for rafts and
boats transporting commodities - a load-bearing waterway.
SAL for the watery ground of a valley or plain named rivers like the Sihl
and Zihl/Thiele in Switzerland. Pliny, in his Natural History, mentions
that in a region of Spain horses were called Thielodones. Ancient Hispanic
has t(h)ieldo 'horse', Ibero-Latin cieldo, and finally Basque zaldi
SAL Sihl Zihl/Thiele Thielo- t(h)iel- ciel- zal-
Magdalenian REO meaning river named the Greek fertility goddess Rhea, Minoan
Rheia, in the light of Magdalenian a river goddess who made a valley fertile.
She named rivers like the ancient Rha modern Volga, then three rivers that
spring in the Swiss Alps, not far from each other: Rhenus Rhine, Rhodanus
Rhone, and Reuss. Rhea was the mother of Zeus, Poseidon, and Hades. Her
Gallo-Roman alter ego had been the horse goddess Epona who rode a horse
in lady fahion, accompanied by a bird evoking the eagle of Zeus, by a foal
evoking the horse of Poseidon, and by a dog evoking the dog of Hades.
Her main sanctuary was Alesia near one of the springs of the River Seine.
Poseidon was originally a river god, PAD AD DA Doric Poteidas, PAS TON
Greek Poseidon: he and his horses move PAD (activity of feet) along rivers
that flow toward AD the sea while coming from DA hills or mountains, and
everywhere PAS they come to, they make themselves heard TON - rushing water
braying horses, thundering waterfalls thundering hooves of a running herd
of horses, their bobbing heads undulating like waves ... Poseidon himself
could turn into a stallion. A gold ring from Mokhlos, Minoan Crete, shows
a boat on a river with the bow in the shape of a horse's head and neck.
TON became -don in Poseidon, named rivers like the Don and Donau/Danube,
and accounts for Proto-Indo-European *dhen- 'run, flow' - horses run,
water flows. A further derivative of TON would have been Proto-Basque
*dun (long u) 'load', first a load carried by a river, then a load carried
by a horse.
Living near a river, trading all kinds of goods on rafts and in boats,
then working with packhorses, allowed an easy transition form the sounding
river to the load-bearing river to load-bearing horses. We have then
SAL for the watery ground of a valley
rivers like Sihl Zihl/Thiele
Proto-Basque *sal 'load'
first carried by a river, then by horses
TON for to make oneself heard
rivers like Don Donau/Danube
murmuring rushing thundering
PIE *dhen- 'run, flow'
Proto-Basque *dun (long u) 'bearing'
first a river then a horse bearing a load
By the way, Basque espa-ra 'horsefly' is akin to Avestan aspa 'horse',
from AS PAC, upward AS horse PAC, originally small and sturdy pony-like
horses used for transporting loads up the slope of a hill or a mountain.
Allan R. Bomhard reconstructed a Proto-Nostratic verbal root I can't render
properly: *?ekh- 'to move quickly, to rage; to be furious, raging, violent,
spirited, fiery, wild' (the sign I give as question mark is a glottal stop,
maybe H1, and the final h should be tiny, in elevated position). This word
has plenty derivatives in Altaic languages, Tungus, Mongolian, Turkic,
even Japanese, and some of them imply the horse, especially the behaving
of stallions (google for: bomhard nostratic horse ).

In the light of Magdalenian, the above Proto-Nostratic root might be a lateral
association to PAC meaning horse. PAC is present in AS PAC Avestan aspa
Sanskrit asva (and many more derivatives), upward AS horse PAC, small pony-
like horses used for transporting loads up the slope of a hill or mountain -
PAC packhorses. Emphatic PAC AS AS horse up up named the winged horse Pegasos
Pegasus, originally personifying the hot summer wind that blows from the
Aral Sea along the Amu Darya then up to the Hindukush, as emblem of poetry
testifying to an oral epic from the first Indo-European homeland on the banks
of the Amu Darya, centered in the triangle of Termez and Kunduz and Kurgan
T'upe. Later on this region became Bactria, a fertile province in the empire
of Dareios then Alexander, rich in horses, Bak- reminding of PAC for horse.
The oldest layers of Greek mythology would originally have told stories from
Central Asia that were later on dislocated to the Greek mainland. (Originally
the GRA KOS Graikos Graikoi Greeks and KAL EN Hellenes were miner tribes
from Central Asia, laboring in 'decorated' caves GRA where colorful and
glittering ores evoked the impression of a heavenly vault KOS inside the
mountain, inside EN the Underworld KAL.)

Now the test case regarding the Indo-European horse can be made more specific.

Proto-Nostratic
*?ekh- (simplified notation) accounts for both Proto-Altaic *ek'a (simp.not.)
and Proto-Indo-European *ek-u-s *ekuo-s (simp.not.) 'horse'.

Magdalenian
PAC meaning horse had a lateral association in *?ekh- (simp.not.) and named
the horse of the first Indo-European homeland in AS PAC aspa asva (and so on),
while AC PAS dubbed the horse of the second and third IE homelands in the
Uralic and Pontic steppes east and west of the ancient Rha modern Volga
respectively: expanse of land with water AC everywhere (in a plain) PAS -
riding a horse you can get everywhere PAS in the Eurasian steppes (on earth)
AC ... Hypothetical AC PAS would have accounted for *h1ekwos (version given
by Mallory and Adams 2006), Greek hippos, Latin equus, also for the name of
the Gallo-Roman horse goddess Epona, for Finnish hevonen 'horse' (and many
more).

Laws of Magdalenian, from the spring of 2005 (1, 2) and spring of 2006 (3, 4)
partly anticipated by Richard Fester (1, 2)

1) inverse forms have related meanings
2) permutations yield words around the same meme
3) D-words have comparative forms in S-words
4) important words can have lateral associations

The inverse of PAC for horse is CAP for to capture horses. CAP might perhaps
have named Kabura Kabul. The stone miners on the Hindukush needed horses for
transporting lapis lazuli and mainly the very hard gray-green stone from
which blades of axes were made still in the Early Bronze Age that began in
the first Indo-European homeland at the southern base of the Alai Mountains
wherein copper and tin were associated in the same mines, their alloy yielding
bronze, and bronze bites made it possible to tame and finally domesticate
horses, by then a wild creature, especially the stallion, well described
by the meanings of the Proto-Nostratic verbal root proposed by Allan R.
Bomhard.
Arnaud Fournet
2018-02-11 09:48:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Allan R. Bomhard reconstructed a Proto-Nostratic verbal root I can't render
properly: *?ekh- 'to move quickly, to rage; to be furious, raging, violent,
spirited, fiery, wild' (the sign I give as question mark is a glottal stop,
maybe H1, and the final h should be tiny, in elevated position). This word
has plenty derivatives in Altaic languages, Tungus, Mongolian, Turkic,
even Japanese, and some of them imply the horse, especially the behaving
of stallions (google for: bomhard nostratic horse ).
Nice, I'm glad to see you read decent people.
Touched by the grace of the Holy Spirit...
A.
Franz Gnaedinger
2018-02-12 08:36:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Allan R. Bomhard reconstructed a Proto-Nostratic verbal root I can't render
properly: *?ekh- 'to move quickly, to rage; to be furious, raging, violent,
spirited, fiery, wild' (the sign I give as question mark is a glottal stop,
maybe H1, and the final h should be tiny, in elevated position). This word
has plenty derivatives in Altaic languages, Tungus, Mongolian, Turkic,
even Japanese, and some of them imply the horse, especially the behaving
of stallions (google for: bomhard nostratic horse ).
In the light of Magdalenian, the above Proto-Nostratic root might be a lateral
association to PAC meaning horse. PAC is present in AS PAC Avestan aspa
Sanskrit asva (and many more derivatives), upward AS horse PAC, small pony-
like horses used for transporting loads up the slope of a hill or mountain -
PAC packhorses. Emphatic PAC AS AS horse up up named the winged horse Pegasos
Pegasus, originally personifying the hot summer wind that blows from the
Aral Sea along the Amu Darya then up to the Hindukush, as emblem of poetry
testifying to an oral epic from the first Indo-European homeland on the banks
of the Amu Darya, centered in the triangle of Termez and Kunduz and Kurgan
T'upe. Later on this region became Bactria, a fertile province in the empire
of Dareios then Alexander, rich in horses, Bak- reminding of PAC for horse.
The oldest layers of Greek mythology would originally have told stories from
Central Asia that were later on dislocated to the Greek mainland. (Originally
the GRA KOS Graikos Graikoi Greeks and KAL EN Hellenes were miner tribes
from Central Asia, laboring in 'decorated' caves GRA where colorful and
glittering ores evoked the impression of a heavenly vault KOS inside the
mountain, inside EN the Underworld KAL.)
Now the test case regarding the Indo-European horse can be made more specific.
Proto-Nostratic
*?ekh- (simplified notation) accounts for both Proto-Altaic *ek'a (simp.not.)
and Proto-Indo-European *ek-u-s *ekuo-s (simp.not.) 'horse'.
Magdalenian
PAC meaning horse had a lateral association in *?ekh- (simp.not.) and named
the horse of the first Indo-European homeland in AS PAC aspa asva (and so on),
while AC PAS dubbed the horse of the second and third IE homelands in the
Uralic and Pontic steppes east and west of the ancient Rha modern Volga
respectively: expanse of land with water AC everywhere (in a plain) PAS -
riding a horse you can get everywhere PAS in the Eurasian steppes (on earth)
AC ... Hypothetical AC PAS would have accounted for *h1ekwos (version given
by Mallory and Adams 2006), Greek hippos, Latin equus, also for the name of
the Gallo-Roman horse goddess Epona, for Finnish hevonen 'horse' (and many
more).
Laws of Magdalenian, from the spring of 2005 (1, 2) and spring of 2006 (3, 4)
partly anticipated by Richard Fester (1, 2)
1) inverse forms have related meanings
2) permutations yield words around the same meme
3) D-words have comparative forms in S-words
4) important words can have lateral associations
The inverse of PAC for horse is CAP for to capture horses. CAP might perhaps
have named Kabura Kabul. The stone miners on the Hindukush needed horses for
transporting lapis lazuli and mainly the very hard gray-green stone from
which blades of axes were made still in the Early Bronze Age that began in
the first Indo-European homeland at the southern base of the Alai Mountains
wherein copper and tin were associated in the same mines, their alloy yielding
bronze, and bronze bites made it possible to tame and finally domesticate
horses, by then a wild creature, especially the stallion, well described
by the meanings of the Proto-Nostratic verbal root proposed by Allan R.
Bomhard.
IE horse sacrifice (inauguration ceremony of a king)

The horse was the Indo-European animal par excellence. Taming not only docile
mares but also wild stallions was a big achievement. It may explain to some
degree the strange inauguration ceremony of a king. First he mated a mare
in a symbolic way (as we shall see a high priestess of a mare goddess).
Hereupon a stallion was sacrificed, dismembered, and the meat offered to
various deities. A scholar found that each leg of a horse had a different
name. From this we can conclude that the legs were consacrated to four deities.
Apparently the new king hoped to gain the prowess of a stud (by symbolically
mating a mare) and the approval of the gods (by distributing the meat among
them).

PAC meaning horse would have accounted for Proto-Indo-European *hbhag-
'apportion' via the sharing of the horse-meat. Bagaios was a byname of
the Phrygian Zeus. He may have watched over the distribution of the various
parts of the sacrificed stallion. A Vedic god who deified Sanskrit bagha-
'apportion' would have done the same. An Iranian cognate of Avestan baga
'good fortune' was borrowed into Slavic and became a word for god, bogu,
Russian bog. Tocharian B pake retains a meaning of share and is close to
Magdalenian PAC for a horse. (Main IE source Mallory and Adams 2006)

A fair distribution of the various parts of the sacrificed stallion to the
gods in a symbolical form, and actually among the assembled priests and
ministers would have meant good fortune (Avestan baga) and been a sign that
the freshly appointed king was a worthy governor in the name of the heavenly
distributor (Zeus Bagaios). In that sense the strange inauguration ceremony
would have been of a social relevance.

The Sanskrit word for the Indic inauguration ceremony, asvamedha, contains
asva 'horse' which is close to Avestan aspa 'horse', from AS PAC, upward AS
horse PAC, small pony-like horses used for transporting loads up a hill or
mountain slope. This would have been the horse of the first Indo-European
homeland on the banks of the Amu Darya, centered in the triangle Termez -
Kunduz - Kurgan T'upe.

Now let us have a look at the names of Termez and Kunduz.

TYR means to overcome in the double sense of rule and give. The king was
an overcomer who not only ruled but also gave, and was expected to fairly
distribute what he gave. He was considered and considered himself the
offspring MmOS of the heavenly overcomer TYR (Sseyr Sseus Zeus). Derivatives
of TYR abound in Central Asia. The king as TYR MmOS might have named Termez
on the middle course of the Amu Darya, between the steep mountains of the
Pamir and the arid plain of the Aral Sea.

If Termez and Kunduz go back to the Bronze Age, the latter may originally
have been called GYN DhAG, woman GYN able DhAG. Who was the able woman?
If we can rely on Czech kun 'horse' a high priestess of a horse goddess
(maybe an emanation of Rhea who had an alter ego in the Gallo-Roman horse
goddess Epona). When a king was inaugurated, he would have performed a
symbolic union with that high priestess, and then she would have helped him
distribute the meat of the sacrificed stallion. Is it a coincidence that
a town above Kunduz - farther up the slope of the Huindukush - is called
Baghlan? Remember Sanskrit bagha-. Place names can be amazingly conservative.
Landscapes can have a long memory.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-02-12 12:36:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
A scholar found that each leg of a horse had a different
name.
What scholar is that?
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
From this we can conclude that the legs were consacrated to four deities.
By what argument do we conclude that?
Arnaud Fournet
2018-02-12 13:02:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
A scholar found that each leg of a horse had a different
name.
What scholar is that?
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
From this we can conclude that the legs were consacrated to four deities.
By what argument do we conclude that?
It's in the Talmud, stupid.
A.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-02-12 15:18:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
A scholar found that each leg of a horse had a different
name.
What scholar is that?
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
From this we can conclude that the legs were consacrated to four deities.
By what argument do we conclude that?
It's in the Talmud, stupid.
Reference, heretical Catholic?
Arnaud Fournet
2018-02-12 21:54:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
A scholar found that each leg of a horse had a different
name.
What scholar is that?
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
From this we can conclude that the legs were consacrated to four deities.
By what argument do we conclude that?
It's in the Talmud, stupid.
Reference, heretical Catholic?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talmud
I'm surprised you don't know what the Talmud is...
A.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-02-13 13:24:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
A scholar found that each leg of a horse had a different
name.
What scholar is that?
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
From this we can conclude that the legs were consacrated to four deities.
By what argument do we conclude that?
It's in the Talmud, stupid.
Reference, heretical Catholic?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talmud
I'm surprised you don't know what the Talmud is...
Only a confirmed antisemite doesn't know that the Talmud is a vast collection of tractates,
in two languages, and that passages in it are referenced by tractate, chapter, folio, ...
Arnaud Fournet
2018-02-13 20:56:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
A scholar found that each leg of a horse had a different
name.
What scholar is that?
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
From this we can conclude that the legs were consacrated to four deities.
By what argument do we conclude that?
It's in the Talmud, stupid.
Reference, heretical Catholic?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talmud
I'm surprised you don't know what the Talmud is...
Only a confirmed antisemite doesn't know that the Talmud is a vast collection of tractates,
in two languages, and that passages in it are referenced by tractate, chapter, folio, ...
Again, I'm surprised you are an antisemite, according to your own ignorance and to your own criteria.
I'm quite amazed...
I had not imagined you PTD would not know what the Talmud is about.
A.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-02-13 22:40:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
A scholar found that each leg of a horse had a different
name.
What scholar is that?
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
From this we can conclude that the legs were consacrated to four deities.
By what argument do we conclude that?
It's in the Talmud, stupid.
Reference, heretical Catholic?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talmud
I'm surprised you don't know what the Talmud is...
Only a confirmed antisemite doesn't know that the Talmud is a vast collection of tractates,
in two languages, and that passages in it are referenced by tractate, chapter, folio, ...
Again, I'm surprised you are an antisemite, according to your own ignorance and to your own criteria.
I'm quite amazed...
I had not imagined you PTD would not know what the Talmud is about.
The Talmud is not "about" the names of the legs of horses, or divinities they are dedicated to.

You claimed, falsely, that there is something in it relevant to the question, yet you refuse
to provide a reference to the passage (not surprisingly, for no such passage exists).
Franz Gnaedinger
2018-02-14 07:30:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The Talmud is not "about" the names of the legs of horses, or divinities they are dedicated to.
Your bosom buddy Arnaud made a joke, don't take it so seriously.

As for me, I am pleasantly surprised about the ethos I find in the Indo-
European spirit. First of all, TYR means to overcome in the double sense
of rule and give. Tyrant was originally a positive term, but became negative
when the maxim 'rule and give' turned into 'rule and take'. Now Zeus Bagaios,
in the light of PAC and the inauguration of a king, watched over a fair
distribution of the meat of the sacrificed stallion, which implies that
the ruler TYR not only gave but also was obliged to fairly distribute
what he gave, to gods and humans, priests and ministers and commoners -
TYR emphatic Middle Helladic Sseyr (Phaistos Disc, Derk Ohlenroth) Doric
Sseus (Wilhelm Larfeld) Homeric Zeus - not only a fighter but also a mediator
and fair distributor. The maxim of rule and give and fairly distribute can
still hold in our time.

Franz Gnaedinger
2018-02-13 09:26:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
What scholar is that?
By what argument do we conclude that?
Between 2005 and 2008 I studied all IE literature I could find on the shelves
of the central university library of Zurich, notably the Proceedings of the
Annual UCLA Indo-European Conference, but also other books, for example a
Festschrift in honor of Sarostin, with a seminal chapter by Merrit Ruhlen,
featuring some 150 derivatives of hypothetical *KAPA. In one of the numerous
papers the PIE names for parts of the horse are discussed, and the author
concludes that the four legs were given different names. When you combine
this with the inauguration ceremony, where the parts of the sacrificed
stallion were distributed among the gods (in symbolical form) and among
the assembled priests and ministers (actually) and in the form of horsemeat
pies for the commoners, you can assume that the various parts were given to
specific gods and priests and ministers, in such a way that all were content.
I don't remember the book wherein that paper appeared, so I can't tell you
the name of the author. Many years ago Ross Clark asked me the same question,
and I gave him the answer, it was at least as good that he posed no further
question. You are welcome to visit my hometown of Zurich, I will then give you
a tour in that library, then you can go through the IE shelves yourself.
And I will of course use the occasion to show you the book by Derk Ohlenroth
on the Phaistos Disc ...
Franz Gnaedinger
2018-02-13 09:11:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
IE horse sacrifice (inauguration ceremony of a king)
The horse was the Indo-European animal par excellence. Taming not only docile
mares but also wild stallions was a big achievement. It may explain to some
degree the strange inauguration ceremony of a king. First he mated a mare
in a symbolic way (as we shall see a high priestess of a mare goddess).
Hereupon a stallion was sacrificed, dismembered, and the meat offered to
various deities. A scholar found that each leg of a horse had a different
name. From this we can conclude that the legs were consacrated to four deities.
Apparently the new king hoped to gain the prowess of a stud (by symbolically
mating a mare) and the approval of the gods (by distributing the meat among
them).
PAC meaning horse would have accounted for Proto-Indo-European *hbhag-
'apportion' via the sharing of the horse-meat. Bagaios was a byname of
the Phrygian Zeus. He may have watched over the distribution of the various
parts of the sacrificed stallion. A Vedic god who deified Sanskrit bagha-
'apportion' would have done the same. An Iranian cognate of Avestan baga
'good fortune' was borrowed into Slavic and became a word for god, bogu,
Russian bog. Tocharian B pake retains a meaning of share and is close to
Magdalenian PAC for a horse. (Main IE source Mallory and Adams 2006)
A fair distribution of the various parts of the sacrificed stallion to the
gods in a symbolical form, and actually among the assembled priests and
ministers would have meant good fortune (Avestan baga) and been a sign that
the freshly appointed king was a worthy governor in the name of the heavenly
distributor (Zeus Bagaios). In that sense the strange inauguration ceremony
would have been of a social relevance.
The Sanskrit word for the Indic inauguration ceremony, asvamedha, contains
asva 'horse' which is close to Avestan aspa 'horse', from AS PAC, upward AS
horse PAC, small pony-like horses used for transporting loads up a hill or
mountain slope. This would have been the horse of the first Indo-European
homeland on the banks of the Amu Darya, centered in the triangle Termez -
Kunduz - Kurgan T'upe.
Now let us have a look at the names of Termez and Kunduz.
TYR means to overcome in the double sense of rule and give. The king was
an overcomer who not only ruled but also gave, and was expected to fairly
distribute what he gave. He was considered and considered himself the
offspring MmOS of the heavenly overcomer TYR (Sseyr Sseus Zeus). Derivatives
of TYR abound in Central Asia. The king as TYR MmOS might have named Termez
on the middle course of the Amu Darya, between the steep mountains of the
Pamir and the arid plain of the Aral Sea.
If Termez and Kunduz go back to the Bronze Age, the latter may originally
have been called GYN DhAG, woman GYN able DhAG. Who was the able woman?
If we can rely on Czech kun 'horse' a high priestess of a horse goddess
(maybe an emanation of Rhea who had an alter ego in the Gallo-Roman horse
goddess Epona). When a king was inaugurated, he would have performed a
symbolic union with that high priestess, and then she would have helped him
distribute the meat of the sacrificed stallion. Is it a coincidence that
a town above Kunduz - farther up the slope of the Huindukush - is called
Baghlan? Remember Sanskrit bagha-. Place names can be amazingly conservative.
Landscapes can have a long memory.
wild or domesticated? (historical depth of field)

Was the Proto-Indo-European horse *h1ekwos a wild or domesticated animal?

Wild horses were an important source of food in the Eurasian steppes. A mass
horse tomb in the Ukraine contained some three thousand skeletons, but only
a very few of domesticated horses, all others of wild horses that had been
hunted for meat.

Magdalenian PAC named a wild horse, PEC a smaller animal, for example an ibex.
PAC and PEC account for *pekw- (tiny w in elevated position) 'cook, bake',
Sanskrit pacati 'cooks' - the meat was roasted on a fire, cooked in water,
or baked in a pie.

PAC would have named the wild horse hunted for meat. Some 6,500 years ago,
horses would have been tamed in the first Indo-European homeland, maybe
in the region of Kunduz, on the northern slope of the Hindukush. The tamed
horse would have been called AS PAC, upward AS horse PAC, small and sturdy
pony-like horses used for transporting loads up a hill or mountain, close
derivatives being Avestan aspa Sanskrit asva.

The horse of the second IE homeland in the Uralic steppes east of the ancient
Rha modern Volga, and the horse of the third IE homeland in the Pontic steppes
west of the Rha Volga, would have been dubbed by a phonetically similar but
semantically different compound: AC PAS, an expanse of land with water AC
everywhere (in a plain) PAS - riding a horse you can get everywhere PAS
on earth AC, in the Eurasian steppes (PR slogan of an early horse breeder ;-)
Among the derivatives are *h1ekwos, Greek hippos, Latin equus, the Gallo-
Roman horse goddess Epona, and the Finnish horse hevonen.

PAC wild horse, hunted for meat

AS PAC tamed horse, used as pack animal

AC PAS domesticated horse, used for riding

The distinction between AS PAC and AC PAS would have held in the beginning;
later on all horses were used for carrying loads, pulling a cart or wagon,
tow a boat along a river, plough a field, and for riding. In that sense
the convergence of AS PAC and AC PAS in *h1ekwos can be justified. Only
that the historical depth of field is lost.

What about Uzbekistan, Buchara, Bekabad -- AS PAC Uzbek-, PAC AAR RAA
Buchara, PAC Bek- ???
Ruud Harmsen
2018-02-01 09:13:49 UTC
Permalink
Wed, 31 Jan 2018 23:19:20 -0800 (PST): Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
The big stag in the Axial Gallery
We simply do not know anything about the language of those eras.
Ruud Harmsen
2018-02-01 09:12:57 UTC
Permalink
Wed, 31 Jan 2018 23:19:20 -0800 (PST): Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Kudos to the PIE scholar who traced English horse back via *hursa
to *kers- 'run' (with a tiny roof on the k).
They're supposed to have been palatals:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_phonology#Dorsals

It's not so much a matter of tracing back, but of systematic
correspondences between IE and early Germanic language, where k-like
IE sound (all? some? I don't know the details) correspond to Germanic
h, in words with related meanings. Early Germanic is well attested
thanks to the Gothic Bible Translation.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-01-30 13:46:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Mon, 29 Jan 2018 00:49:07 -0800 (PST): Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Very unlikely. Not attested in real languages. Metathesis sometimes
happened, in Portuguese for example (flor vs. frol, etc., also hros
vs. hors in English) but it cannot explain how kers became ross.
Mainstream etymology however can and does.
Well, show me how it does. How do you explain the two Proto-Germanic forms
*hrussa and *hursa for the horse?
Vowels can easily jump over consonants. But consonants nearly always
stay in the same order.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Here is my version that I worked out over
the weekend, also counts for the test case regarding the stag.
English horse (an assimilation?)
RYT meaning spear thrower, archer,
Where is the Germanic h, which in IE was some sort of k. In your,
allegedly much older, Magdalanian RYT, it is missing. So how did it
arise? Such things just don't happen in the history of languages.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Greek rhytaer 'archer, protector',
would have accounted for German Ritter
So your alleged pre-IE form happens to have the same consonant
structure, containing an r and a t, although many thousands of years
are in between.
That alone makes your theory improbable.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
'knight', originally a riding archer,
and for the item Ross und Reiter 'horse and rider', Ross an emphatic form
analogous to TYR emphatic Middle Helladic Sseyr (Phaistos Disc, Derk Ohlenroth)
Doric Sseus (Wilhelm Larfeld) Homeric Zeus.
The Celtic-Germanic isogloss *reidh- 'ride' led from RYT to Reiter and Ritter,
while Proto-Germanic offers both *hrussa and *hursa for the horse. Are they
the same word separated by a semantically irrelevant metathesis, ore are they
derivatives of two entirely different words assimilated in naming the same
animal?
I don't know. If I want to know, I'd consult Wiktionary or the sources
mentioned there.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Mallory and Adams 2006 mention that *kers- 'run' was perhaps nominalized in
the word familiy of New English horse.
The origin of *kers- 'run' might have been CER meaning stag or hind, also
shaman or shamaness, consider Cernunnos wearing stag antlers
RYT rhytaer (hrytaer) *hrussa Ross
A rh/hr metathesis just didn't and doesn't happen like that. Too
unlikely, never attested in real examples of word developments through
the ages.
I asked a clear question and got no answer: are the two Proto-Germanic forms
*hrussa and *hursa the same word, separated by a semantically irrelevant
metathesis? or can they be derivatives of two entirely different words
assimilated in naming the same animal?
Why do you think there are "two Proto-Germanic forms"?

In what appears above, that is simply your assertion ("P-Gmc. offers").
Franz Gnaedinger
2018-01-31 08:28:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Why do you think there are "two Proto-Germanic forms"?
In what appears above, that is simply your assertion ("P-Gmc. offers").
Ruud Harmsen quoted one form, I found another form on the online etymological
website. Which you could know if you had read all messages here in this thread.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-01-31 13:22:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Why do you think there are "two Proto-Germanic forms"?
In what appears above, that is simply your assertion ("P-Gmc. offers").
Ruud Harmsen quoted one form, I found another form on the online etymological
website.
That is to say, not two different forms, but two different interpretations of the same data.

Please learn to UNDERSTAND what you copy.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Which you could know if you had read all messages here in this thread.
That is an unreasonable request. The messages in this thread make zero contribution to the
understanding of human language.
Franz Gnaedinger
2018-02-01 07:28:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Why do you think there are "two Proto-Germanic forms"?
In what appears above, that is simply your assertion ("P-Gmc. offers").
Ruud Harmsen quoted one form, I found another form on the online etymological
website.
That is to say, not two different forms, but two different interpretations of the same data.
Please learn to UNDERSTAND what you copy.
Ruud found Proto-Germanic *hrussa on wiktionary whereupon I found Proto-
Germanic *hursa on the etymology web page that always appears at the top
of the list when I google for etymology. Apparently there are two forms,
one derived by going back from German Ross, the other by going back from
English horse. You do as if PIE were a mono-block. No, it is not, it has
ambiguities and loose ends.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
That is an unreasonable request. The messages in this thread make zero contribution to the
understanding of human language.
Look up our messages from last week, not an unreasonable request. You told
me several times that archaeology has nothing to do with language, ergo you
ignore all I say for example on Lascaux. Peter T(aliban) Daniels locuta,
causa finita. As you found every silly excuse not to even have a glance
at Derk Ohlenroth's book on the Phaistos Disk for fourteen years, knowing
that the Phaistos Disc can't be deciphered. That is what you understand
as science. Ignoring what goes against your opinion. Eo ipso and anyway.
Franz Gnaedinger
2018-01-30 08:21:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
English horse (an assimilation?)
RYT meaning spear thrower, archer, Greek rhytaer 'archer, protector',
would have accounted for German Ritter 'knight', originally a riding archer,
and for the item Ross und Reiter 'horse and rider', Ross an emphatic form
analogous to TYR emphatic Middle Helladic Sseyr (Phaistos Disc, Derk Ohlenroth)
Doric Sseus (Wilhelm Larfeld) Homeric Zeus.
The Celtic-Germanic isogloss *reidh- 'ride' led from RYT to Reiter and Ritter,
while Proto-Germanic offers both *hrussa and *hursa for the horse. Are they
the same word separated by a semantically irrelevant metathesis, ore are they
derivatives of two entirely different words assimilated in naming the same
animal?
Mallory and Adams 2006 mention that *kers- 'run' was perhaps nominalized in
the word familiy of New English horse.
The origin of *kers- 'run' might have been CER meaning stag or hind, also
shaman or shamaness, consider Cernunnos wearing stag antlers
RYT rhytaer (hrytaer) *hrussa Ross
RYT *reidh- Reiter, Ross und Reiter, Ritter
CER *kers- (care) *hursa horse ??
The stag is an elegant runner. His running capacity must have been most
impressive in the giant stag megaceros, emblem of the arch shaman and
arch shamaness.
Lascaux and Altamira suggest a Divine or Cosmic Stag, and a Divine Hind or
Hind Woman. CER KOS would have been the cosmic stag, his antlers appearing
in the summer constellations we know as Sagittarius and Scorpio. His name
would account for Latin quercus 'oak' and Gaulish érkos 'oak forest',
owing to the similar ways that oak and stag antler branch. His consort
would have been the Divine Hind CER -: I -: or CER LIL who called life
into existence, also moon bulls, thus creating time, lunations or synodic
months, periods of 30 29 30 29 30 29 30 29 30 29 30 ... days. Her image
as Hind Woman was the dominating winter constellation across the sky from
Sagittarius and Scorpio: ORE EON Orion, she on the beautiful ORE bank or
shore EON of the heavenly CA river or lake LAK together CA LAK overformed
by Galaxy 'Milky Way'.
CER KOS would have been implored for running power: May he give the sun
horse and moon bull the force to run all day and night long! May he and
his helpers guard the entrances to and exits from the Underworld, passed
by the sun horse and moon bull on their daily journey, securing their way
so they can run freely, without being held up.
A group of red stags with oversized antlers are seen in the rotunda of
Lascaux, facing a white bull and a red mare, both running side by side in
clockwise direction. The glorious rotunda symbolizes midsummer, the red
mare rising above the ledge the midsummer sun rising above the horizon,
and the proud bull by her side a full moon occurring at the same time,
ideal start of an eight-year period in the lunisolar calendar of Lascaux.
Apparently the stags guard an exit from the Underworld, granting a safe
passage from the realm below to the sky above. (They are also astronomers
observing sun and moon; the arrows and lances aimed at the animals being
astronomocial ideograms.)
Cernunnos wearing stag antlers would have been a descendant of the Divine
Stag. He was one of the oldest Celtic gods, close to the supreme Dagda,
the good god in the sense of the able god (Barry Cunliffe), from the
emphatic doubling DhAG DhAG able able. The Romans equated Cernunnos with
none less than Jupiter. The Celtic lord of all the animals is depicted
on the silver cauldron from Gundestrup, Denmark, seated between a stag
and further animals, wearing a torque around his neck, and holding
another torque in his raised right hand, between himself and the stag.
The torque symbolized the daily orbit of the sun horse and moon bull,
as indicated by tiny winged horses on a golden torque, and by bulls on
several silver torques - gold for the sun, silver for the moon. Cernunnos
must have cared for the cosmic order, making the world go on, giving the
sun horse and moon bull the stamina to climb the sky and traverse the
Underworld and return again on their daily journeys, running running
running, always running, day in day out.
4,800 years ago riders from the steppes between the Caspian Sea and the
Black Sea arrived in Northern Europe (result of a genetic screening).
A shaman in the service of the Divine Stag was given a new task, not
only imploring his heavenly patron for the daily return of the sun horse,
but also caring for actual horses, protecting their legs with magic formulae,
and then, slowly, that shaman would have become what we now call a horse
whisperer ...
CER might well have accounted for *kers- run', also for care, then for
*hursa and the word family of English horse, in assimiltion to RYT
rhytaer (hrytaer) *hrussa Ross, part of the item Ross und Reiter 'horse
and rider', Reiter and the more emphatic Ritter via *reidh- 'ride'.
The postulated Divine or Cosmic Stag is present in Lascaux, and most
prominently so!

CER meaning stag accounts for Latin cervus French cerf German Hirsch.
Stags were always present in cave art, but became highly important from
Lascaux onward. In the Lascaux cave were counted eighty-five stags.
A roaring stag, two meters tall, can be seen near the rotunda, at the
entrance of the diverticle or axial gallery, calling out to the approaching
pair of Chinese horses, lovely horses representing spring. Until now I
considered the big stag as arch shaman of astronomers, responsible for
teaching the calendar. But now I modify this idea. He still remains the
calendar arch shaman and top astronomer, but in his divine dimension he is
the Cosmic Stag. Strangely, his legs remained unfinished. Instead of his
forelegs we see a horizontal line of thirteen dots, coming from a standing
rectanlge, and a big dot on the other side of the rectangle. This I interpret
as a calendar figure, possibly the oldest calendar, already encoded in the
Lebombo bone from Africa, 36,000 years ago: a year has 13 months of 28 days
(line of thirteen dots for months) plus one more day (big single dot),
in all 365 days. So the running time captured by the calendar replaces
the missing legs of the stag.

He has fantastic antlers of 5 and 4 together 9 points. This hints at the
new calendar of Lascaux, indicated by the calendar square 3 by 3 fields,
an oblique cross of five fields of syncopic squares of 41 dots each, plus
4 fields of syncopic squares of 40 dots each, in all a syncopic square of
365 dots. Difficult to describe in words, and without ASCII, so please
look up the patterns of the Lebombo and Lascaux calendars in my paper

http://www.seshat.ch/home/mathe.pdf
Daud Deden
2018-01-30 15:28:55 UTC
Permalink
Franz:"Instead of his
forelegs we see a horizontal line of thirteen dots, coming from a standing
rectanlge, and a big dot on the other side of the rectangle. This I interpret
as a calendar figure, possibly the oldest calendar, already encoded in the
Lebombo bone from Africa, 36,000 years ago: a year has 13 months of 28 days
(line of thirteen dots for months) plus one more day (big single dot),
in all 365 days."
-
13* x 4 suits/limbs/quarters/cu.atl = 52 xyua(mbua)t/Shabbat (the.rest)

1minute ~ 1month/menestrua
60second ~ 30am + 30pm
am after/overmoon, arigolu
pm peri/premoon, mongolu
Franz Gnaedinger
2018-01-31 08:42:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
The postulated Divine or Cosmic Stag is present in Lascaux, and most
prominently so!
CER meaning stag accounts for Latin cervus French cerf German Hirsch.
Stags were always present in cave art, but became highly important from
Lascaux onward. In the Lascaux cave were counted eighty-five stags.
A roaring stag, two meters tall, can be seen near the rotunda, at the
entrance of the diverticle or axial gallery, calling out to the approaching
pair of Chinese horses, lovely horses representing spring. Until now I
considered the big stag as arch shaman of astronomers, responsible for
teaching the calendar. But now I modify this idea. He still remains the
calendar arch shaman and top astronomer, but in his divine dimension he is
the Cosmic Stag. Strangely, his legs remained unfinished. Instead of his
forelegs we see a horizontal line of thirteen dots, coming from a standing
rectanlge, and a big dot on the other side of the rectangle. This I interpret
as a calendar figure, possibly the oldest calendar, already encoded in the
Lebombo bone from Africa, 36,000 years ago: a year has 13 months of 28 days
(line of thirteen dots for months) plus one more day (big single dot),
in all 365 days. So the running time captured by the calendar replaces
the missing legs of the stag.
He has fantastic antlers of 5 and 4 together 9 points. This hints at the
new calendar of Lascaux, indicated by the calendar square 3 by 3 fields,
an oblique cross of five fields of syncopic squares of 41 dots each, plus
4 fields of syncopic squares of 40 dots each, in all a syncopic square of
365 dots. Difficult to describe in words, and without ASCII, so please
look up the patterns of the Lebombo and Lascaux calendars in my paper
http://www.seshat.ch/home/mathe.pdf
National Geographics, October 1988, published a beautifully illustrated
article on the Lascaux cave. The caption to the roaring stag says

Fantastic nine-point antlers
rise from the profile of a
roaring red deer in the Axial
Gallery, its legs apparently
left purposely incomplete.
Under the deer, 13 dots and
a rectangle could be ident-
ifiers or hunting tallies--yet
another mystery in the glory
of Lascaux.

'Identifiers' comes close. The big dot, standing rectangle and horizontal
line of 13 dots (read in the running direction of the horses) are a year,
New Year on midsummer (big dot, June 21), followed by 13 periods of 28 days,
in all a regular year of 365 days. The roaring stag is resting, he is the
Magdalenian anticipation of the Ptolemaic primum mobile that makes the moon
and planets and sun revolve around the Earth - the stag as prime mover is
resting himself (legs left unfinished purposely) while lending his running
power and stamina to the sun horse and moon bull. Stags have been observed
and reported to leap ten or even fourteen meters wide and two or even three
meters high, and running for sixty kilometers when being hunted. And they
prefer oak forests, remember CER KOS quercus èrkos.
Franz Gnaedinger
2018-02-02 09:20:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
National Geographics, October 1988, published a beautifully illustrated
article on the Lascaux cave. The caption to the roaring stag says
Fantastic nine-point antlers
rise from the profile of a
roaring red deer in the Axial
Gallery, its legs apparently
left purposely incomplete.
Under the deer, 13 dots and
a rectangle could be ident-
ifiers or hunting tallies--yet
another mystery in the glory
of Lascaux.
'Identifiers' comes close. The big dot, standing rectangle and horizontal
line of 13 dots (read in the running direction of the horses) are a year,
New Year on midsummer (big dot, June 21), followed by 13 periods of 28 days,
in all a regular year of 365 days. The roaring stag is resting, he is the
Magdalenian anticipation of the Ptolemaic primum mobile that makes the moon
and planets and sun revolve around the Earth - the stag as prime mover is
resting himself (legs left unfinished purposely) while lending his running
power and stamina to the sun horse and moon bull. Stags have been observed
and reported to leap ten or even fourteen meters wide and two or even three
meters high, and running for sixty kilometers when being hunted. And they
prefer oak forests, remember CER KOS quercus èrkos.
Divine or Cosmic Stag ('primum mobile' of Magdalenian mythology and
astronomy)

National Geographics, October 1988, published a beautifully illustrated
article on the Lascaux cave. The caption to the big stag painted in the
gallery says: "Fantastic nine-point antlers rise from the profile of a red
deer in the Axial Gallery, its legs apparently left purposely incomplete,
13 dots and a rectangle could be identifiers or hunting tallies--yet
another mystery in the glory of Lascaux."

Marie E.P. König identified the niche at the rear end of the gallery as
midwinter, the line of descending horses as the tired winter sun horse,
and the pair of antithetic ibices as emblem of the winter solstice.
From there the sun horse moves along the gallery to the midsummer hall,
in clockwise direction (like the sun does). The pair of lovely 'Chinese'
horses convey the joy of a warm spring after a long and harsh winter.
Then comes a dancing horse, just before the big stag. This one, two meters
tall, roaring, is calling out to the horses, asking them to approach.
He is the 'primum mobile' or prime mover who makes the sun horse and moon
bull run, the horse just before him dance and prance, exult in the pleasure
of the near summer - the midsummer hall begins right behind the stag.

The ideogram under him (read from left to right, in the running direction
of the sun horse) consists of a big dot, a standing rectangle, and
a horizontal line of 13 dots which replaces the forelegs of the stag.
The big dot represents New Year on the summer solstice, June 21 in our
modern calendar. The standing rectangle may suggest a calendar pattern
of 28 by 13 pebbles for 364 days, and the line of 13 dots the 13 months
of 28 days in a year - together a regular year of 365 days, which replaces
the incomplete forelegs of the stag: he symbolizes running time that unfolds
in the running of the sun horse and moon bull.

Now for the "fantastic nine-point antlers" that encode a further calendar,
the lunisolar calendar of Lascaux, together with ideograms of a subdivided
square that indicate a subdivision of a square into 3 by 3 small squares,
one of those ideograms below the antithetic ibices in the midwinter niche.

h i b
g a c
f e d

The nine points of the antlers correspond to the nine periods of time
a b c d e f g h i, the five longer points of the right antler to the five
periods a b d f h that form an oblique cross and have 41 days each, and
the four shorter points of the left antler to the four periods c e g i
that have 40 days each, in all a regular year of 365 days.

Also this year can be laid out with pebbles. Begin with a square of 14 by 14
pebbles and insert a square of 13 by 13 pebbles in the spaces between. Thus
you obtain what I call a syncopic square. (The smallest syncopic square is
the five on a dice, two by two dots, and one in the middle.) Now also the
period of 41 days forms a syncopic square: 5 by 5 pebbles, inserted 4 by 4
pebbles. The resulting calendar pattern, the big syncopic square with the
five smaller syncopic squares, can be found in the Lascaux chapter of my
paper http://www.seshat.ch/home/mathe.pdf

Now for the ingenious lunar aspect of this calendar. Eight subsequent periods
correspond to eleven lunations or synodic months counted in the 30 29 30 mode
or the less accurate 29 30 29 mode, for example

a b c d e f g h 41 41 40 41 40 41 40 41 sum 325

30 29 30 29 30 29 30 29 30 29 30 sum 325

If a full moon occurs on the summer solstice, June 21, beginning of period a,
another full moon occurs eight periods later, at the beginning of period i,
May 12 in our calendar. Eight years correspond to 99 lunations; then you have
to add two leap days, and take the slow shift of the lunar period into
consideration.

The big stag is involved with times. He makes time go on by conveying his
energy as 'primum mobile' or prime mover to the sun horse and moon bull.
Actually, 'primum mobile' was a concept of Ptolemaic astronomy, the power
that makes the moon and planets and sun and fixed stars revolve around the
Earth. In the light of Lascaux, this idea reaches far back in time.

Stags were always depicted in cave art, however, from Lascaux onward, they
gained much importance. In the Lascaux cave have been counted eighty-five
red deer, cervus elaphus, always placed at strategic points of a hall or
gangway.

Why had the stag been chosen as prime mover?

Cervus elaphus, dubbed king of the woods, originally preferred open meadows
and oak forests (remember CER KOS quercus érkos). The male can reach a height
of 170 centimeters, and a weight of 250 kilograms in France, 425 kg in the
Karpates. He was observed and reported to leap up to ten or even fourteen
meters wide, two or even three meters high, and run a stretch of sixty
kilometers when hunted in a drive. The stag has a truly amazing running
capacity, which predestined him as prime mover in the animistic world view
of Lascaux. And he lent his power and stamina specifically to the horse

CER KOS CER S *kers- 'run' *hursa horse

Consider also the phonetical proximity Hirsch *hursa, Hirsch the German stag
and *hursa the Proto-Germanic form of English horse.

Eyeteeth of stags, often incised, had been widespread pendants in the
Magdalenian era, perhaps worn as amulets imploring walking and running
power and stamina for a human being from the Divine Stag? also many years,
a long life from the Lord of Time?
Daud Deden
2018-01-25 00:33:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Ok, what prediction does it make, and what sort of data would falsify that prediction?
AS PAC Avestan aspa, Persian asb, Hieroglyphic Luvian esbe-, Armenian es
(esh), Lithuanian esva (eshva) 'mare' and asvienis (ashvienis) 'stallion'
AC PAS Greek hippos, Latin equus, Tocharian B yakwe, Spanish yegua 'mare',
Old Irish ech, Old English eoh, Gallo-Roman horse goddess Epona, Finnish
hevonen 'horse'
The second group of words don't have to pass the bottleneck of *h1ekwos,
they can be derived directly from AC PAS.
William Jones located the Indo-European homeland in greater Iran. Now we
can both confirm his opinion and make it more precise: the first IE homeland
was on the banks of the Amu Darya, centered in the Triangle of Termez and
Kunduz and Kurgan T'upe. A former poster told us that Lithuanian is the oldest
IE language (and was heavily mocked and massively killrated, even more than I).
Now it is fascinating to see that Lithuanian esva and asvienis belong to the
horse names derived from AS PAC of the first IE homeland on the banks of the
Amu Darya, while the other horse words derive from the compound of the
second and third IE homelands. And the closest derivative of AS PAC is found
in Avestan aspa, Avestan being a language of Eastern Iran. The region I
consider the first IE homeland became Bactria, rich in horses, Bac- a possible
derivative of Magdalenian PAC for horse. This would have been the region
where horses were tamed for the first time. In greater Iran. William Jones
was right with his educated guess about the IE homeland.
Prediction: the precise location of the first IE homeland will help to bring
together numerous fractions of the past. Also, archaeology on the banks of
the Amu Darya and in Central Asia might become a hot issue of archaeology
in the next decades.
I explained to you all that historical predictions can't be made, so we have
to discuss conflicting opinions: who has the better arguments and can explain
more with less effort? (Bacon's razor)
---
***@Latin ~ ***@Greek ~ ***@Mbuti/*mbuangualua/domicile-cover-conceal-ciel

a Roman coin issued in 85 CE by Agrippa II bearing the phrase “Judea Capta,” which commemorated the victory over the Jewish rebels
-
***@NJ: could be also from a **(s)kwel-kw? (kind of KrK root) = **kelp > *klep.
The sages say that a connection with Gr. καλύπτω (kaluptō) "cover, conceal" is not to be excluded. kalypto is from *ḱel- (“to cover”)

So, if taskarin is about [DD: with shield] "concealing" (connected with taskara "thief") and since halub seems to be close to kalyp- kalup- pf kalypto for "concealing" (with h < k, as in German); and kalypto is probably connected to *klep, used for "stealing"; then I think there is a possibility of the same notion of "concealing - covering" concerning the folliage of this tree "halub", as in "taskarin"; note that in CAD, there is also a Mari word "halupu" meaning a kind of garment (connected with halapu "to cover, clothe" (among other things)

See also kälpaṣṣuki and klepe."

There are also Dravidian words in Nostratic:
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fnostr%2fnostret&text_number=1519&root=config
Eurasiatic: *q̇VlPV
Meaning: to steal, cheat
Indo-European: *(s)klep-
Kartvelian: Georg. q̇alb- 'to cheat, deceive, lie'
Dravidian: *kaḷ-
References: ND 1915 *q̇Aḷ/ĺAb/pV 'to hide, conceal' (+Arab.). Cf. *KuĺV?
Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
2018-01-19 15:56:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Of course you can. How do you imagine Tocharian, Hittite, or Lycian were identified as IE?
Because they fit exactly into reconstructed PIE.
How do you imagine Potawotami was identified as Central Algonquian? Because it fit exactly
into reconstructed PCA -- and exhibited a consonant cluster that Bloomfield postulated
must have existed to account for certain data in Fox, Cree, Menominee, and Ojibway.
Historical reconstruction of proto-languages WORKS.
Of course it works, but not absolutely, it is getting fuzzy when you go far
back in time.
True enough. However, Magdalenian does not work absolutely or relatively. It very emphatically does not work at all.
Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
2018-01-19 15:59:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
PIE is not the truth
but a theory, still a theory.
Yes. In science, "theory" means "the best approximation of truth that can be arrived at, according to the information available".

Magdalenian is not even a theory, so it is even further from truth than PIE.
Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
2018-01-14 09:13:52 UTC
Permalink
Hyperkooks dominate a forum by...
By doing exactly what you do.

Our Fränzellino Fränzellini is indeed able to give a very minute description of what he himself is doing.
António Marques
2018-01-14 12:23:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
Hyperkooks dominate a forum by...
By doing exactly what you do.
Our Fränzellino Fränzellini is indeed able to give a very minute
description of what he himself is doing.
But according to him he’s a hypokook, not a hyper.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-01-14 14:38:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by António Marques
Post by Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
Hyperkooks dominate a forum by...
By doing exactly what you do.
Our Fränzellino Fränzellini is indeed able to give a very minute
description of what he himself is doing.
But according to him he’s a hypokook, not a hyper.
Let's split the difference and just call him a kook.
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