Discussion:
What's up with Spanish /tʃ/?
(too old to reply)
Christian Weisgerber
2018-10-07 14:27:01 UTC
Permalink
(Disclaimer: I don't speak Spanish.)

I first noticed this while watching _La casa de papel_ and now again
with _Élite_ on Netflix: I keep hearing instances of [ts], a
cluster/affricate I don't expect in Spanish. When I check the
Spanish subtitles, it's invariably a word with <ch> /tʃ/. Confusingly,
only some instances of /tʃ/ register as [ts] for me and I haven't
found a pattern yet.

Is there a regional accent, allophony, sound shift, etc. in European
Spanish that would explain [tʃ] > [ts]? The rather detailed "Spanish
phonology" article on Wikipedia doesn't mention anything.
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber ***@mips.inka.de
wugi
2018-10-07 19:54:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christian Weisgerber
(Disclaimer: I don't speak Spanish.)
I first noticed this while watching _La casa de papel_ and now again
with _Élite_ on Netflix: I keep hearing instances of [ts], a
cluster/affricate I don't expect in Spanish. When I check the
Spanish subtitles, it's invariably a word with <ch> /tʃ/. Confusingly,
only some instances of /tʃ/ register as [ts] for me and I haven't
found a pattern yet.
Is there a regional accent, allophony, sound shift, etc. in European
Spanish that would explain [tʃ] > [ts]? The rather detailed "Spanish
phonology" article on Wikipedia doesn't mention anything.
I notice it too (eg a news speaker (f) on TVE), and mentioned it before
IIRC.
The s part even becomes like marginal, the whole sound seeming a variant
of t.
I consider it a modism, but such modisms may induce linguistic change.
I hear similar modisms in other languages.
I just recently mentioned here Swedish ʃ (without much response)
sounding like /Xw/, which undoubtedly started out as a modism.
Admittedly some time ago, but not mentioned in my Hugo Swedish which
sticks to /ʃ/.
Br. E., after having diphthongized many of its long vowels, can now be
heard monophthongizing "fire" and "shower" to "faah" and "shaah".
French girls now prefer to say "chose" with open o of "porc" not with
closed o of "eau".
Some Dutch (often young or well-known females) indulge in strong
diphthongised -ee- and -oo- vowels (-eej- and -oouw-), and very
'Gooikse' -er endings.
--
guido wugi
Ruud Harmsen
2018-10-08 06:55:28 UTC
Permalink
I just recently mentioned here Swedish ? (without much response)
sounding like /Xw/, which undoubtedly started out as a modism.
Admittedly some time ago, but not mentioned in my Hugo Swedish which
sticks to /?/.
Stasjon = [staXun]
Before non-back vowels, the pronunciation (by many Swedish speakers,
not all, not in Finnland) is a rounded ich-Laut.

It was already in that Microsoft Encyclopiae, sometime in 1998 or so.
Nothing secret about it. No doubt also in Wikipedia, but there
incorrectly described as a coarticulation of [x] (or [X]) and [S], but
that's not what it is. It is a rounded ç. Try it, it works perfectly.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Ruud Harmsen
2018-10-08 07:00:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Stasjon = [staXun]
Before non-back vowels, the pronunciation (by many Swedish speakers,
not all, not in Finnland) is a rounded ich-Laut.
Try this: have Google Translate translate "Sick, ill, station." and
have the speech synthesizer pronounce it.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
wugi
2018-10-08 09:06:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ruud Harmsen
I just recently mentioned here Swedish ? (without much response)
sounding like /Xw/, which undoubtedly started out as a modism.
Admittedly some time ago, but not mentioned in my Hugo Swedish which
sticks to /?/.
Stasjon = [staXun]
Before non-back vowels, the pronunciation (by many Swedish speakers,
not all, not in Finnland) is a rounded ich-Laut.
You missed the w-glide after X (and this one sometimes a mere voiceless
h-glide) (and the w-glide sometimes almost a fricative glide, like
stahfon). I've heard all of that.
And as I said before, the Swedish girl didn't understand my "shing-ka".
She expected "[X]wing-ka".
Post by Ruud Harmsen
It was already in that Microsoft Encyclopiae, sometime in 1998 or so.
Nothing secret about it. No doubt also in Wikipedia, but there
incorrectly described as a coarticulation of [x] (or [X]) and [S], but
that's not what it is. It is a rounded ç. Try it, it works perfectly.
--
guido wugi
Ruud Harmsen
2018-10-09 18:53:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by wugi
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Stasjon = [staXun]
Before non-back vowels, the pronunciation (by many Swedish speakers,
not all, not in Finnland) is a rounded ich-Laut.
You missed the w-glide after X (and this one sometimes a mere voiceless
h-glide)
It isn't w, it's fronter.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
wugi
2018-10-09 19:06:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Post by wugi
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Stasjon = [staXun]
Before non-back vowels, the pronunciation (by many Swedish speakers,
not all, not in Finnland) is a rounded ich-Laut.
You missed the w-glide after X (and this one sometimes a mere voiceless
h-glide)
It isn't w, it's fronter.
It is almost my Flemish w alright (for a starter, may vary toward a
fricative approximant, or "niks", nought).
--
guido wugi
Arnaud Fournet
2018-10-08 08:34:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by wugi
Post by Christian Weisgerber
(Disclaimer: I don't speak Spanish.)
I first noticed this while watching _La casa de papel_ and now again
with _Élite_ on Netflix: I keep hearing instances of [ts], a
cluster/affricate I don't expect in Spanish. When I check the
Spanish subtitles, it's invariably a word with <ch> /tʃ/. Confusingly,
only some instances of /tʃ/ register as [ts] for me and I haven't
found a pattern yet.
Is there a regional accent, allophony, sound shift, etc. in European
Spanish that would explain [tʃ] > [ts]? The rather detailed "Spanish
phonology" article on Wikipedia doesn't mention anything.
I notice it too (eg a news speaker (f) on TVE), and mentioned it before
IIRC.
The s part even becomes like marginal, the whole sound seeming a variant
of t.
I consider it a modism, but such modisms may induce linguistic change.
I hear similar modisms in other languages.
I just recently mentioned here Swedish ʃ (without much response)
sounding like /Xw/, which undoubtedly started out as a modism.
Admittedly some time ago, but not mentioned in my Hugo Swedish which
sticks to /ʃ/.
Br. E., after having diphthongized many of its long vowels, can now be
heard monophthongizing "fire" and "shower" to "faah" and "shaah".
French girls now prefer to say "chose" with open o of "porc" not with
closed o of "eau".
It has nothing to do with "modism" or gender.
Closed long o in words like rose or chose is a Parisian feature. Most French people elsewhere have an open short o.
Quebec has a diphthong in such words: rowse, chowse, etc.
Christian Weisgerber
2018-10-10 19:09:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by wugi
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Is there a regional accent, allophony, sound shift, etc. in European
Spanish that would explain [tʃ] > [ts]? The rather detailed "Spanish
phonology" article on Wikipedia doesn't mention anything.
I notice it too (eg a news speaker (f) on TVE), and mentioned it before
IIRC.
Look what I found:

“Castilian Spanish - Madrid”
http://www.ipds.uni-kiel.de/kjk/pub_exx/kk2009_4/spanish/spa_madrid.html

The consonant table at the top only shows the traditional t͡ʃ.

Further down, under the header “Conventions” we find something
interesting. The point is the assimilation of /n/ and /l/ to the
following consonant, and they are palatalized in this context:

ancha colcha
ˈanʲtsʲa ˈkolʲtsʲa

But note the [tsʲ]. Even better, the table has links to speech
samples that clearly illustrate the realization I’m talking about.
http://www.ipds.uni-kiel.de/kjk/pub_exx/kk2009_4/spanish/wav-dat/spa_madrid/Conventions/ancha.wav
http://www.ipds.uni-kiel.de/kjk/pub_exx/kk2009_4/spanish/wav-dat/spa_madrid/Conventions/colcha.wav

In the final “Narrative” section, there is only one example, <ancha>
again, and it is transcribed [ãnʲt͡ʃa]. But here’s the
corresponding speech sample:
http://www.ipds.uni-kiel.de/kjk/pub_exx/kk2009_4/spanish/wav-dat/spa_madrid/Narrative/narrative1.wav
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber ***@mips.inka.de
António Marques
2018-10-10 19:41:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by wugi
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Is there a regional accent, allophony, sound shift, etc. in European
Spanish that would explain [tʃ] > [ts]? The rather detailed "Spanish
phonology" article on Wikipedia doesn't mention anything.
I notice it too (eg a news speaker (f) on TVE), and mentioned it before
IIRC.
“Castilian Spanish - Madrid”
http://www.ipds.uni-kiel.de/kjk/pub_exx/kk2009_4/spanish/spa_madrid.html
The consonant table at the top only shows the traditional t͡ʃ.
Further down, under the header “Conventions” we find something
interesting. The point is the assimilation of /n/ and /l/ to the
ancha colcha
ˈanʲtsʲa ˈkolʲtsʲa
But note the [tsʲ]. Even better, the table has links to speech
samples that clearly illustrate the realization I’m talking about.
http://www.ipds.uni-kiel.de/kjk/pub_exx/kk2009_4/spanish/wav-dat/spa_madrid/Conventions/ancha.wav
http://www.ipds.uni-kiel.de/kjk/pub_exx/kk2009_4/spanish/wav-dat/spa_madrid/Conventions/colcha.wav
In the final “Narrative” section, there is only one example, <ancha>
again, and it is transcribed [ãnʲt͡ʃa]. But here’s the
http://www.ipds.uni-kiel.de/kjk/pub_exx/kk2009_4/spanish/wav-dat/spa_madrid/Narrative/narrative1.wav
To my ears this last one is [tS]. I haven’t listened to the others.
Don’t expect it to sound like _tsch_. It is a real affricate, not a [t]
plus [S].
wugi
2018-10-10 21:09:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by wugi
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Is there a regional accent, allophony, sound shift, etc. in European
Spanish that would explain [tʃ] > [ts]? The rather detailed "Spanish
phonology" article on Wikipedia doesn't mention anything.
I notice it too (eg a news speaker (f) on TVE), and mentioned it before
IIRC.
“Castilian Spanish - Madrid”
http://www.ipds.uni-kiel.de/kjk/pub_exx/kk2009_4/spanish/spa_madrid.html
The consonant table at the top only shows the traditional t͡ʃ.
Further down, under the header “Conventions” we find something
interesting. The point is the assimilation of /n/ and /l/ to the
ancha colcha
ˈanʲtsʲa ˈkolʲtsʲa
But note the [tsʲ]. Even better, the table has links to speech
samples that clearly illustrate the realization I’m talking about.
http://www.ipds.uni-kiel.de/kjk/pub_exx/kk2009_4/spanish/wav-dat/spa_madrid/Conventions/ancha.wav
http://www.ipds.uni-kiel.de/kjk/pub_exx/kk2009_4/spanish/wav-dat/spa_madrid/Conventions/colcha.wav
In the final “Narrative” section, there is only one example, <ancha>
again, and it is transcribed [ãnʲt͡ʃa]. But here’s the
http://www.ipds.uni-kiel.de/kjk/pub_exx/kk2009_4/spanish/wav-dat/spa_madrid/Narrative/narrative1.wav
These are quite normal I find. I've heard more striking cases.
--
guido wugi
António Marques
2018-10-07 23:48:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christian Weisgerber
(Disclaimer: I don't speak Spanish.)
I first noticed this while watching _La casa de papel_ and now again
with _Élite_ on Netflix: I keep hearing instances of [ts], a
cluster/affricate I don't expect in Spanish. When I check the
Spanish subtitles, it's invariably a word with <ch> /tʃ/. Confusingly,
only some instances of /tʃ/ register as [ts] for me and I haven't
found a pattern yet.
Is there a regional accent, allophony, sound shift, etc. in European
Spanish that would explain [tʃ] > [ts]?
There are such regional variants, but I don’t think they would explain your
case, as they are quite rustic by now. It could be a modern, unrelated
trend.
I can’t say, because I’m about the only individual I know who hasn’t yet
watched the series.
Post by Christian Weisgerber
The rather detailed "Spanish
phonology" article on Wikipedia doesn't mention anything.
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