Discussion:
Spanish aca?
(too old to reply)
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-11 02:13:28 UTC
Permalink
Crossword puzzle. Clue: Here, in Juarez. Answer: ACA

Is that dialectal?
António Marques
2018-10-11 03:31:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Crossword puzzle. Clue: Here, in Juarez. Answer: ACA
Is that dialectal?
No, it’s standard, tho I’d never noticed Spanish had it before. That
suggests it’s much rarer than Portuguese _cá_.

I don’t think you’ll find anyone able to tell you the difference between it
and aqui.

As best as I can tell, in Portuguese:
- cá is the place where the speaker is, with reference to the speaker: vem
cá ‘come to me’
- aqui is the place where the speaker is, with reference to the place: vem
aqui ‘come here’

But both mean the place, not the speaker.

If two people were exploring an abandoned house, they’d say vem aqui to
summon the other, not vem cá.

Perhaps the difference can be more easily seen in their ‘there’
counterparts, lá and ali. You use lá to refer to some place you’re not in
(could be next room or overseas), whereas ali can only be used for
something close to the speaker - either within sight or within thought.
(If the addressee is in or close to the ‘there’ place, then it has to be
called aí. I’m not aware of an -á counterpart).

I have no ideia how this may or may not apply to Spanish.
Ruud Harmsen
2018-10-11 05:48:29 UTC
Permalink
Thu, 11 Oct 2018 03:31:43 -0000 (UTC): António Marques
No, it’s standard, tho I’d never noticed Spanish had it before. That
suggests it’s much rarer than Portuguese _cá_.
I don’t think you’ll find anyone able to tell you the difference between it
and aqui.
- cá is the place where the speaker is, with reference to the speaker: vem
cá ‘come to me’
- aqui is the place where the speaker is, with reference to the place: vem
aqui ‘come here’
What I learned is, that cá/lá is a twofold here/there, while
aqui/ai/ali (+além) is a threefold distinction corresponding to 'with
me/with you/with them', like este, esse, aquele.
But both mean the place, not the speaker.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
António Marques
2018-10-11 11:12:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Thu, 11 Oct 2018 03:31:43 -0000 (UTC): António Marques
No, it’s standard, tho I’d never noticed Spanish had it before. That
suggests it’s much rarer than Portuguese _cá_.
I don’t think you’ll find anyone able to tell you the difference between it
and aqui.
- cá is the place where the speaker is, with reference to the speaker: vem
cá ‘come to me’
- aqui is the place where the speaker is, with reference to the place: vem
aqui ‘come here’
What I learned is, that cá/lá is a twofold here/there, while
aqui/ai/ali (+além) is a threefold distinction corresponding to 'with
me/with you/with them', like este, esse, aquele.
That isn’t wrong, but it’s not a complete user guide :)
I wouldn’t use the ‘with me/with you/with them’ example, tho. If anything,
it’s more like ‘next to me / next to you / over there’.
Post by Ruud Harmsen
But both mean the place, not the speaker.
Ruud Harmsen
2018-10-11 16:07:21 UTC
Permalink
Thu, 11 Oct 2018 11:12:42 -0000 (UTC): António Marques
Post by Ruud Harmsen
What I learned is, that cá/lá is a twofold here/there, while
aqui/ai/ali (+além) is a threefold distinction corresponding to 'with
me/with you/with them', like este, esse, aquele.
That isn’t wrong, but it’s not a complete user guide :)
I wouldn’t use the ‘with me/with you/with them’ example, tho. If anything,
it’s more like ‘next to me / next to you / over there’.
To me, "next to" and "with" are synonyms in this context. Dutch bij,
German bei. Aqui bei mir, ai bei dir, ali bei euch. Irgendwo dabei,
unspecified where exactly, left, right, in front, behind, it doesn't
matter. Close, nearby. By, the English word is cognate, not without
relevance.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-10-11 06:38:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by António Marques
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Crossword puzzle. Clue: Here, in Juarez. Answer: ACA
Is that dialectal?
No, it’s standard, tho I’d never noticed Spanish had it before. That
suggests it’s much rarer than Portuguese _cá_.
I don’t think you’ll find anyone able to tell you the difference between it
and aqui.
In the Spanish I hear, "acá" is almost as common as "aquí", and
equivalent. Likewise "allá" and "allí".
Post by António Marques
- cá is the place where the speaker is, with reference to the speaker: vem
cá ‘come to me’
- aqui is the place where the speaker is, with reference to the place: vem
aqui ‘come here’
But both mean the place, not the speaker.
If two people were exploring an abandoned house, they’d say vem aqui to
summon the other, not vem cá.
Perhaps the difference can be more easily seen in their ‘there’
counterparts, lá and ali. You use lá to refer to some place you’re not in
(could be next room or overseas), whereas ali can only be used for
something close to the speaker - either within sight or within thought.
(If the addressee is in or close to the ‘there’ place, then it has to be
called aí. I’m not aware of an -á counterpart).
I have no ideia how this may or may not apply to Spanish.
--
athel
Jim Burns
2018-10-11 11:27:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by António Marques
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Crossword puzzle. Clue: Here, in Juarez. Answer: ACA
Is that dialectal?
No, it’s standard, tho I’d never noticed Spanish had it
before. That suggests it’s much rarer than Portuguese _cá_.
I don’t think you’ll find anyone able to tell you the
difference between it and aqui.
I am not a native Spanish speaker, so this is only
what I've been told.

<q>
The words “aquí” and “acá” are not interchangeable.

“Aquí” and “acá” both refer to a location that is close
to the speaker. These words are not interchangeable. “Acá”
is used with verbs of motion, while “aquí” is used in other
instances. “Juan, ven acá.” (John, come here.) Puedes
registrarte aquí. (You can register here.)
</q>

https://studyspanish.com/topten_mistakes#seven
Ruud Harmsen
2018-10-11 16:08:46 UTC
Permalink
“Aquí” and “acᔠboth refer to a location that is close
to the speaker. These words are not interchangeable. “Acá”
is used with verbs of motion, while “aquí” is used in other
instances. “Juan, ven acá.” (John, come here.) Puedes
registrarte aquí. (You can register here.)
Venha cá. The typical phrase old ladies say to little dogs with a mind
of their own. Only times I heard cá used natively.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-10-11 20:28:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Burns
Post by António Marques
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Crossword puzzle. Clue: Here, in Juarez. Answer: ACA
Is that dialectal?
No, it’s standard, tho I’d never noticed Spanish had it
before. That suggests it’s much rarer than Portuguese _cá_.
I don’t think you’ll find anyone able to tell you the
difference between it and aqui.
I am not a native Spanish speaker, so this is only
what I've been told.
<q>
The words “aquí” and “acá” are not interchangeable.
“Aquí” and “acá” both refer to a location that is close
to the speaker. These words are not interchangeable. “Acá”
is used with verbs of motion, while “aquí” is used in other
instances. “Juan, ven acá.” (John, come here.) Puedes
registrarte aquí. (You can register here.)
</q>
https://studyspanish.com/topten_mistakes#seven
I haven't yet got around to asking my wife, but on thinking about it
before I saw your post I had come to a feeling along the lines of what
you say: in statements of motion both aquí and acá can be used, but in
static statements acá is not idiomatic:

ven aquí: OK
ven acá: OK
estoy aquí: OK
estoy acá: NOT OK
--
athel
António Marques
2018-10-11 23:22:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jim Burns
Post by António Marques
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Crossword puzzle. Clue: Here, in Juarez. Answer: ACA
Is that dialectal?
No, it’s standard, tho I’d never noticed Spanish had it
before. That suggests it’s much rarer than Portuguese _cá_.
I don’t think you’ll find anyone able to tell you the
difference between it and aqui.
I am not a native Spanish speaker, so this is only
what I've been told.
<q>
The words “aquí” and “acá” are not interchangeable.
“Aquí” and “acá” both refer to a location that is close
to the speaker. These words are not interchangeable. “Acá”
is used with verbs of motion, while “aquí” is used in other
instances. “Juan, ven acá.” (John, come here.) Puedes
registrarte aquí. (You can register here.)
</q>
https://studyspanish.com/topten_mistakes#seven
I haven't yet got around to asking my wife, but on thinking about it
before I saw your post I had come to a feeling along the lines of what
you say: in statements of motion both aquí and acá can be used, but in
ven aquí: OK
ven acá: OK
estoy aquí: OK
estoy acá: NOT OK
In Portuguese:
- estou aqui ‘I’m over here’
- cá/aqui estou [eu] ‘Here I am’
- estou cá ‘I’m here’ (either needs a complement, or means a broader place
than aqui would, such as a town or homestead rather than a room)

This is all quite difficult to pinpoint, except that there are cars where
one or the other doesn’t work and a native will know it immediately.
Ruud Harmsen
2018-10-12 07:57:33 UTC
Permalink
Thu, 11 Oct 2018 23:22:29 -0000 (UTC): António Marques
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
ven aquí: OK
ven acá: OK
estoy aquí: OK
estoy acá: NOT OK
- estou aqui ‘I’m over here’
- cá/aqui estou [eu] ‘Here I am’
- estou cá ‘I’m here’ (either needs a complement, or means a broader place
than aqui would, such as a town or homestead rather than a room)
This is all quite difficult to pinpoint, except that there are cars where
one or the other doesn’t work and a native will know it immediately.
Right, that's how it is. And that is why I have decided to not write
in Portuguese on my website, not even in English, but in Interlingua,
where the native speakers is us, and by thorough study I can be
(together with some others) a language authority myself, in a way
which otherwise I can only be of Dutch and no other language. And I do
want be readable worldwide, so I won't write in Dutch only. But
sometimes too.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
António Marques
2018-10-12 12:42:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Thu, 11 Oct 2018 23:22:29 -0000 (UTC): António Marques
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
ven aquí: OK
ven acá: OK
estoy aquí: OK
estoy acá: NOT OK
- estou aqui ‘I’m over here’
- cá/aqui estou [eu] ‘Here I am’
- estou cá ‘I’m here’ (either needs a complement, or means a broader place
than aqui would, such as a town or homestead rather than a room)
Also, ‘estou cá’ refers to the fact that I’m present, whereas ‘estou aqui’
refers to the location. Cá can’t be used to mean ‘over here’.
Post by Ruud Harmsen
This is all quite difficult to pinpoint, except that there are cars where
one or the other doesn’t work and a native will know it immediately.
Right, that's how it is. And that is why I have decided to not write
in Portuguese on my website, not even in English, but in Interlingua,
where the native speakers is us, and by thorough study I can be
(together with some others) a language authority myself, in a way
which otherwise I can only be of Dutch and no other language. And I do
want be readable worldwide, so I won't write in Dutch only. But
sometimes too.
I avoid producing content in most of the languages I’m interested in
because they’re already threatened and don’t need one more incompetent user
diluting the proper corpus.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-10-28 17:21:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jim Burns
Post by António Marques
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Crossword puzzle. Clue: Here, in Juarez. Answer: ACA
Is that dialectal?
No, it’s standard, tho I’d never noticed Spanish had it
before. That suggests it’s much rarer than Portuguese _cá_.
I don’t think you’ll find anyone able to tell you the
difference between it and aqui.
I am not a native Spanish speaker, so this is only
what I've been told.
<q>
The words “aquí” and “acá” are not interchangeable.
“Aquí” and “acá” both refer to a location that is close
to the speaker. These words are not interchangeable. “Acá”
is used with verbs of motion, while “aquí” is used in other
instances. “Juan, ven acá.” (John, come here.) Puedes
registrarte aquí. (You can register here.)
</q>
https://studyspanish.com/topten_mistakes#seven
I haven't yet got around to asking my wife, but on thinking about it
before I saw your post I had come to a feeling along the lines of what
you say: in statements of motion both aquí and acá can be used, but in
ven aquí: OK
ven acá: OK
estoy aquí: OK
estoy acá: NOT OK
Now that everyone has lost interest in the difference between aquí and
acá I have got around to asking my wife. She agreed that one had more
to do with movement and the other more to do with state, but not quite
as I put it. She didn't like aquí with movement, and didn't object to
acá with state. She had a look at the Dictionary of the Royal Academy,
which said that aquí is more precise (aquí = right here where I am; acá
= approximately here where I am).
--
athel
Daud Deden
2018-10-28 18:54:53 UTC
Permalink
Acá seems to resemble -abouts (-***@Canadian).
Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
2018-10-29 00:59:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jim Burns
Post by António Marques
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Crossword puzzle. Clue: Here, in Juarez. Answer: ACA
Is that dialectal?
No, it’s standard, tho I’d never noticed Spanish had it
before. That suggests it’s much rarer than Portuguese _cá_.
I don’t think you’ll find anyone able to tell you the
difference between it and aqui.
I am not a native Spanish speaker, so this is only
what I've been told.
<q>
The words “aquí” and “acá” are not interchangeable.
“Aquí” and “acá” both refer to a location that is close
to the speaker. These words are not interchangeable. “Acá”
is used with verbs of motion, while “aquí” is used in other
instances. “Juan, ven acá.” (John, come here.) Puedes
registrarte aquí. (You can register here.)
</q>
https://studyspanish.com/topten_mistakes#seven
I haven't yet got around to asking my wife, but on thinking about it
before I saw your post I had come to a feeling along the lines of what
you say: in statements of motion both aquí and acá can be used, but in
ven aquí: OK
ven acá: OK
estoy aquí: OK
estoy acá: NOT OK
Now that everyone has lost interest in the difference between aquí and
acá I have got around to asking my wife. She agreed that one had more
to do with movement and the other more to do with state, but not quite
as I put it. She didn't like aquí with movement, and didn't object to
acá with state. She had a look at the Dictionary of the Royal Academy,
which said that aquí is more precise (aquí = right here where I am; acá
= approximately here where I am).
So, I guess the safest description is that they are synonyms, but not full synonyms - synonyms never are, I guess.
António Marques
2018-10-29 02:16:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jim Burns
Post by António Marques
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Crossword puzzle. Clue: Here, in Juarez. Answer: ACA
Is that dialectal?
No, it’s standard, tho I’d never noticed Spanish had it
before. That suggests it’s much rarer than Portuguese _cá_.
I don’t think you’ll find anyone able to tell you the
difference between it and aqui.
I am not a native Spanish speaker, so this is only
what I've been told.
<q>
The words “aquí” and “acá” are not interchangeable.
“Aquí” and “acá” both refer to a location that is close
to the speaker. These words are not interchangeable. “Acá”
is used with verbs of motion, while “aquí” is used in other
instances. “Juan, ven acá.” (John, come here.) Puedes
registrarte aquí. (You can register here.)
</q>
https://studyspanish.com/topten_mistakes#seven
I haven't yet got around to asking my wife, but on thinking about it
before I saw your post I had come to a feeling along the lines of what
you say: in statements of motion both aquí and acá can be used, but in
ven aquí: OK
ven acá: OK
estoy aquí: OK
estoy acá: NOT OK
Now that everyone has lost interest in the difference between aquí and
acá I have got around to asking my wife. She agreed that one had more
to do with movement and the other more to do with state, but not quite
as I put it. She didn't like aquí with movement, and didn't object to
acá with state. She had a look at the Dictionary of the Royal Academy,
which said that aquí is more precise (aquí = right here where I am; acá
= approximately here where I am).
So, I guess the safest description is that they are synonyms, but not
full synonyms - synonyms never are, I guess.
I wouldn’t say they are synonyms. For one, because I’m not fond of seeing
that word applied to things other than nouns, but especially because I
think they’re more ‘coincidental in reference’ than anything else. Cf
Vatican/Holy See, Low Countries / Benelux.
Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
2018-10-29 10:17:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by António Marques
Post by Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jim Burns
Post by António Marques
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Crossword puzzle. Clue: Here, in Juarez. Answer: ACA
Is that dialectal?
No, it’s standard, tho I’d never noticed Spanish had it
before. That suggests it’s much rarer than Portuguese _cá_.
I don’t think you’ll find anyone able to tell you the
difference between it and aqui.
I am not a native Spanish speaker, so this is only
what I've been told.
<q>
The words “aquí” and “acá” are not interchangeable.
“Aquí” and “acá” both refer to a location that is close
to the speaker. These words are not interchangeable. “Acá”
is used with verbs of motion, while “aquí” is used in other
instances. “Juan, ven acá.” (John, come here.) Puedes
registrarte aquí. (You can register here.)
</q>
https://studyspanish.com/topten_mistakes#seven
I haven't yet got around to asking my wife, but on thinking about it
before I saw your post I had come to a feeling along the lines of what
you say: in statements of motion both aquí and acá can be used, but in
ven aquí: OK
ven acá: OK
estoy aquí: OK
estoy acá: NOT OK
Now that everyone has lost interest in the difference between aquí and
acá I have got around to asking my wife. She agreed that one had more
to do with movement and the other more to do with state, but not quite
as I put it. She didn't like aquí with movement, and didn't object to
acá with state. She had a look at the Dictionary of the Royal Academy,
which said that aquí is more precise (aquí = right here where I am; acá
= approximately here where I am).
So, I guess the safest description is that they are synonyms, but not
full synonyms - synonyms never are, I guess.
I wouldn’t say they are synonyms. For one, because I’m not fond of seeing
that word applied to things other than nouns, but especially because I
think they’re more ‘coincidental in reference’ than anything else. Cf
Vatican/Holy See, Low Countries / Benelux.
There hardly are full synonyms at all. I think there is a common tendency in language to assign subtly different meanings even to basically synonymous words. If full synonyms arise, or are about to arise, this mechanism counteracts it.
António Marques
2018-10-29 11:27:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
Post by António Marques
Post by Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jim Burns
Post by António Marques
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Crossword puzzle. Clue: Here, in Juarez. Answer: ACA
Is that dialectal?
No, it’s standard, tho I’d never noticed Spanish had it
before. That suggests it’s much rarer than Portuguese _cá_.
I don’t think you’ll find anyone able to tell you the
difference between it and aqui.
I am not a native Spanish speaker, so this is only
what I've been told.
<q>
The words “aquí” and “acá” are not interchangeable.
“Aquí” and “acá” both refer to a location that is close
to the speaker. These words are not interchangeable. “Acá”
is used with verbs of motion, while “aquí” is used in other
instances. “Juan, ven acá.” (John, come here.) Puedes
registrarte aquí. (You can register here.)
</q>
https://studyspanish.com/topten_mistakes#seven
I haven't yet got around to asking my wife, but on thinking about it
before I saw your post I had come to a feeling along the lines of what
you say: in statements of motion both aquí and acá can be used, but in
ven aquí: OK
ven acá: OK
estoy aquí: OK
estoy acá: NOT OK
Now that everyone has lost interest in the difference between aquí and
acá I have got around to asking my wife. She agreed that one had more
to do with movement and the other more to do with state, but not quite
as I put it. She didn't like aquí with movement, and didn't object to
acá with state. She had a look at the Dictionary of the Royal Academy,
which said that aquí is more precise (aquí = right here where I am; acá
= approximately here where I am).
So, I guess the safest description is that they are synonyms, but not
full synonyms - synonyms never are, I guess.
I wouldn’t say they are synonyms. For one, because I’m not fond of seeing
that word applied to things other than nouns, but especially because I
think they’re more ‘coincidental in reference’ than anything else. Cf
Vatican/Holy See, Low Countries / Benelux.
There hardly are full synonyms at all. I think there is a common tendency
in language to assign subtly different meanings even to basically
synonymous words. If full synonyms arise, or are about to arise, this
mechanism counteracts it.
I don’t think it’s necessarily a mechanism. You assign meanings to words
based on your experience with them. Your experience will never be the same
for different words, even if only for statistical reasons. That accounts
for why the meanings of some pairs are regionally reversed.

Here, however, I feel that it’s a different difference. Do you consider top
and above to be synonyms?
Jim Burns
2018-10-29 15:46:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by António Marques
On Monday, October 29, 2018 at 4:16:24 AM UTC+2,
Post by António Marques
On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 7:21:07 PM UTC+2,
On 2018-10-11 20:28:28 +0000,
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I haven't yet got around to asking my wife, but on
thinking about it before I saw your post I had come
in statements of motion both aquí and acá can be
ven aquí: OK
ven acá: OK
estoy aquí: OK
estoy acá: NOT OK
Now that everyone has lost interest in the difference
between aquí and acá I have got around to asking my
wife. She agreed that one had more to do with movement
and the other more to do with state, but not quite as
I put it. She didn't like aquí with movement, and didn't
object to acá with state. She had a look at the
Dictionary of the Royal Academy, which said that aquí
is more precise (aquí = right here where I am;
acá = approximately here where I am).
So, I guess the safest description is that they are
synonyms, but not full synonyms - synonyms never are,
I guess.
I wouldn’t say they are synonyms. For one, because
I’m not fond of seeing that word applied to things other
than nouns, but especially because I think they’re more
‘coincidental in reference’ than anything else.
Cf Vatican/Holy See, Low Countries / Benelux.
There hardly are full synonyms at all. I think there is a
common tendency in language to assign subtly different
meanings even to basically synonymous words. If full
synonyms arise, or are about to arise, this mechanism
counteracts it.
I don’t think it’s necessarily a mechanism. You assign
meanings to words based on your experience with them.
Your experience will never be the same for different words,
even if only for statistical reasons. That accounts for
why the meanings of some pairs are regionally reversed.
Here, however, I feel that it’s a different difference.
Do you consider top and above to be synonyms?
Thank you! Top/above is good example.

It hadn't occurred to me that English might have distinctions
similar to aquí/acá. Or, a distinction similar to what I imagine.

I would say to/towards has a family resemblance.
As in
"Move that table to the kitchen"
vs
"Move that table towards the kitchen".

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-wards

Would "to me"/"towards me" be a reasonable translation
of aquí/acá?
António Marques
2018-10-29 20:52:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Burns
Post by António Marques
On Monday, October 29, 2018 at 4:16:24 AM UTC+2,
Post by António Marques
On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 7:21:07 PM UTC+2,
On 2018-10-11 20:28:28 +0000,
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I haven't yet got around to asking my wife, but on
thinking about it before I saw your post I had come
in statements of motion both aquí and acá can be
ven aquí: OK
ven acá: OK
estoy aquí: OK
estoy acá: NOT OK
Now that everyone has lost interest in the difference
between aquí and acá I have got around to asking my
wife. She agreed that one had more to do with movement
and the other more to do with state, but not quite as
I put it. She didn't like aquí with movement, and didn't
object to acá with state. She had a look at the
Dictionary of the Royal Academy, which said that aquí
is more precise (aquí = right here where I am;
acá = approximately here where I am).
So, I guess the safest description is that they are
synonyms, but not full synonyms - synonyms never are,
I guess.
I wouldn’t say they are synonyms. For one, because
I’m not fond of seeing that word applied to things other
than nouns, but especially because I think they’re more
‘coincidental in reference’ than anything else.
Cf Vatican/Holy See, Low Countries / Benelux.
There hardly are full synonyms at all. I think there is a
common tendency in language to assign subtly different
meanings even to basically synonymous words. If full
synonyms arise, or are about to arise, this mechanism
counteracts it.
I don’t think it’s necessarily a mechanism. You assign
meanings to words based on your experience with them.
Your experience will never be the same for different words,
even if only for statistical reasons. That accounts for
why the meanings of some pairs are regionally reversed.
Here, however, I feel that it’s a different difference.
Do you consider top and above to be synonyms?
Thank you! Top/above is good example.
It hadn't occurred to me that English might have distinctions
similar to aquí/acá. Or, a distinction similar to what I imagine.
I would say to/towards has a family resemblance.
As in
"Move that table to the kitchen"
vs
"Move that table towards the kitchen".
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-wards
Would "to me"/"towards me" be a reasonable translation
of aquí/acá?
I wouldn’t know, I don’t speak Spanish.
For what I’ve seen, my impression is that each word has a small set of
niches where the other isn’t allowed, and that where they are
interchangeable relative frequency varies according to dialect.

I’d also say that aquí is closest to being a point whereas acá is closest
to being an area. But that’s just one of the ways to look at it and it may
even be wrong.

Ruud Harmsen
2018-10-11 05:49:18 UTC
Permalink
Wed, 10 Oct 2018 19:13:28 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Crossword puzzle. Clue: Here, in Juarez. Answer: ACA
Is that dialectal?
What would be the link with ACA? Which is the many meanings of ACA is
linked to Juárez?
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Ruud Harmsen
2018-10-11 06:00:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Wed, 10 Oct 2018 19:13:28 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Crossword puzzle. Clue: Here, in Juarez. Answer: ACA
Is that dialectal?
What would be the link with ACA? Which is the many meanings of ACA is
linked to Juárez?
Juárez is one of the few -ez/-es names not in my list at
http://rudhar.com/fonetics/nomesz/nomes-en.stm . The city is named
after one Benito Juárez. Is there a Portuguese equivalent? Joares? It
does Google, but largely as a first name, not a last name, it seems.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-11 11:24:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Wed, 10 Oct 2018 19:13:28 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Crossword puzzle. Clue: Here, in Juarez. Answer: ACA
Is that dialectal?
What would be the link with ACA? Which is the many meanings of ACA is
linked to Juárez?
Juárez is one of the few -ez/-es names not in my list at
http://rudhar.com/fonetics/nomesz/nomes-en.stm . The city is named
after one Benito Juárez. Is there a Portuguese equivalent? Joares? It
does Google, but largely as a first name, not a last name, it seems.
"One Benito Juarez"?? Only one of the most important people in the history
of Mexico!
Ruud Harmsen
2018-10-11 16:09:27 UTC
Permalink
Thu, 11 Oct 2018 04:24:18 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Wed, 10 Oct 2018 19:13:28 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Crossword puzzle. Clue: Here, in Juarez. Answer: ACA
Is that dialectal?
What would be the link with ACA? Which is the many meanings of ACA is
linked to Juárez?
Juárez is one of the few -ez/-es names not in my list at
http://rudhar.com/fonetics/nomesz/nomes-en.stm . The city is named
after one Benito Juárez. Is there a Portuguese equivalent? Joares? It
does Google, but largely as a first name, not a last name, it seems.
"One Benito Juarez"?? Only one of the most important people in the history
of Mexico!
Seriously the first time I heard about him.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
António Marques
2018-10-11 11:25:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Wed, 10 Oct 2018 19:13:28 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Crossword puzzle. Clue: Here, in Juarez. Answer: ACA
Is that dialectal?
What would be the link with ACA? Which is the many meanings of ACA is
linked to Juárez?
Juárez is one of the few -ez/-es names not in my list at
http://rudhar.com/fonetics/nomesz/nomes-en.stm . The city is named
after one Benito Juárez. Is there a Portuguese equivalent? Joares? It
does Google, but largely as a first name, not a last name, it seems.
I’ve always thought it was a variant of Suárez.
While we’re at it, Yáñez is Eanes.

I’ve never met ‘Joares’. Maybe it’s a thing in Brazil.
Ruud Harmsen
2018-10-11 16:35:09 UTC
Permalink
Thu, 11 Oct 2018 11:25:28 -0000 (UTC): António Marques
I’ve always thought it was a variant of Suárez.
While we’re at it, Yáñez is Eanes.
OK, thanks, added.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-11 11:22:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Wed, 10 Oct 2018 19:13:28 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Crossword puzzle. Clue: Here, in Juarez. Answer: ACA
Is that dialectal?
What would be the link with ACA? Which is the many meanings of ACA is
linked to Juárez?
It's highly usual for crossword puzzles to indicate a foreign word with an
alliterative place name. (It always bothers me that they love to use
"Barcelona" to clue a Spanish word when the definition begins with B.)
António Marques
2018-10-11 11:25:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Wed, 10 Oct 2018 19:13:28 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Crossword puzzle. Clue: Here, in Juarez. Answer: ACA
Is that dialectal?
What would be the link with ACA? Which is the many meanings of ACA is
linked to Juárez?
It's highly usual for crossword puzzles to indicate a foreign word with an
alliterative place name. (It always bothers me that they love to use
"Barcelona" to clue a Spanish word when the definition begins with B.)
Indeed.
wugi
2018-10-11 08:39:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Crossword puzzle. Clue: Here, in Juarez. Answer: ACA
Is that dialectal?
Before long, I knew aquí and allí.
Then, visiting my in-laws in Argentina, I heard only acá and allá.
(So it seems mailnly a Spain vs. Latin America distinction.)

In my confusion I first concluded that the -í forms meant "here", and
the -á forms "(over) there". And used it that way, until it dawned to me
that it is really the -qu/c- forms vs. the -ll- forms.

Still, my first interpretation sounds much more natural to me, being
accustomed with F. ici vs. là(-bas), D. hier vs. daar.
With the -i- sound I'd bow my head to point hither, with the -a- sound
I'd raise it to point thither :-)
So yes, I don't find Spanish (and Pt. and It.) logical in this case.
--
guido wugi
António Marques
2018-10-11 11:22:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by wugi
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Crossword puzzle. Clue: Here, in Juarez. Answer: ACA
Is that dialectal?
Before long, I knew aquí and allí.
Then, visiting my in-laws in Argentina, I heard only acá and allá.
(So it seems mailnly a Spain vs. Latin America distinction.)
In my confusion I first concluded that the -í forms meant "here", and
the -á forms "(over) there". And used it that way, until it dawned to me
that it is really the -qu/c- forms vs. the -ll- forms.
Still, my first interpretation sounds much more natural to me, being
accustomed with F. ici vs. là(-bas),
Gallo-romance has lost the proximal form with a and the distal form with i.

Galician keeps a form with o which I never know when to use, but it’s
limited to the l series: ali / alá / aló (Galician has not had apheresis of
the a like Portuguese). It’s said to have also acô, but I’ve never noticed
it.

Occitan keeps the o in aquò / aiçò ‘this’ (Catalan això).

But I suspect all those o may have disparate origins. So there’s little
point in bringing in Italian and Romanian.
Arnaud Fournet
2018-10-11 16:34:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by wugi
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Crossword puzzle. Clue: Here, in Juarez. Answer: ACA
Is that dialectal?
Before long, I knew aquí and allí.
Then, visiting my in-laws in Argentina, I heard only acá and allá.
(So it seems mailnly a Spain vs. Latin America distinction.)
In my confusion I first concluded that the -í forms meant "here", and
the -á forms "(over) there". And used it that way, until it dawned to me
that it is really the -qu/c- forms vs. the -ll- forms.
Still, my first interpretation sounds much more natural to me, being
accustomed with F. ici vs. là(-bas), D. hier vs. daar.
I can't speak for Québec, but in French as spoken here,
it should be noted that the distinction between ici and là is extremely blurred, and the real distinction is between ici = là (here) vs là-bas (over there)
Besides, là can also mean "now, then", which ici cannot express.
ici tends to mean "in the hereabouts, around here", which là cannot express.
Ruud Harmsen
2018-10-11 16:57:08 UTC
Permalink
Thu, 11 Oct 2018 09:34:38 -0700 (PDT): Arnaud Fournet
Post by Arnaud Fournet
I can't speak for Québec, but in French as spoken here,
it should be noted that the distinction between ici and là is extremely blurred, and the real distinction is between ici = là (here) vs là-bas (over there)
Besides, là can also mean "now, then", which ici cannot express.
ici tends to mean "in the hereabouts, around here", which là cannot express.
Cf. Portuguese "na altura", literally "at the height (of)", but more
often meaning "at that moment, in that period". That, or this.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
António Marques
2018-10-11 17:29:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Thu, 11 Oct 2018 09:34:38 -0700 (PDT): Arnaud Fournet
Post by Arnaud Fournet
I can't speak for Québec, but in French as spoken here,
it should be noted that the distinction between ici and là is extremely
blurred, and the real distinction is between ici = là (here) vs là-bas (over there)
Besides, là can also mean "now, then", which ici cannot express.
ici tends to mean "in the hereabouts, around here", which là cannot express.
Cf. Portuguese "na altura", literally "at the height (of)", but more
often meaning "at that moment, in that period". That, or this.
Galician ‘daquela’ has completely lost altura/vez.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-12 04:45:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Post by wugi
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Crossword puzzle. Clue: Here, in Juarez. Answer: ACA
Is that dialectal?
Before long, I knew aquí and allí.
Then, visiting my in-laws in Argentina, I heard only acá and allá.
(So it seems mailnly a Spain vs. Latin America distinction.)
In my confusion I first concluded that the -í forms meant "here", and
the -á forms "(over) there". And used it that way, until it dawned to me
that it is really the -qu/c- forms vs. the -ll- forms.
Still, my first interpretation sounds much more natural to me, being
accustomed with F. ici vs. là(-bas), D. hier vs. daar.
I can't speak for Québec, but in French as spoken here,
it should be noted that the distinction between ici and là is extremely
blurred, and the real distinction is between ici = là (here) vs là-bas
(over there)
Besides, là can also mean "now, then", which ici cannot express.
ici tends to mean "in the hereabouts, around here", which là cannot express.
What does your vaunted Académie have to say about that?
At least we have the legend of King Canute.
Daud Deden
2018-10-12 00:54:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by wugi
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Crossword puzzle. Clue: Here, in Juarez. Answer: ACA
Is that dialectal?
Before long, I knew aquí and allí.
Then, visiting my in-laws in Argentina, I heard only acá and allá.
(So it seems mailnly a Spain vs. Latin America distinction.)
In my confusion I first concluded that the -í forms meant "here", and
the -á forms "(over) there". And used it that way, until it dawned to me
that it is really the -qu/c- forms vs. the -ll- forms.
Still, my first interpretation sounds much more natural to me, being
accustomed with F. ici vs. là(-bas), D. hier vs. daar.
With the -i- sound I'd bow my head to point hither, with the -a- sound
I'd raise it to point thither :-)
So yes, I don't find Spanish (and Pt. and It.) logical in this case.
--
guido wugi
I presume you meant: "Long before..."
Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
2018-10-12 11:10:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Crossword puzzle. Clue: Here, in Juarez. Answer: ACA
Is that dialectal?
Theoretically, acá refers to movement, aquí to position. But practically, it is more like a dialectal thing, or "regional frequency" thing.
wugi
2018-10-12 13:21:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Crossword puzzle. Clue: Here, in Juarez. Answer: ACA
Is that dialectal?
Theoretically, acá refers to movement, aquí to position. But
practically, it is more like a dialectal thing, or "regional
frequency" thing.
Hear here ;-)
--
guido wugi
António Marques
2018-10-12 13:35:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by wugi
Post by Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Crossword puzzle. Clue: Here, in Juarez. Answer: ACA
Is that dialectal?
Theoretically, acá refers to movement, aquí to position. But
practically, it is more like a dialectal thing, or "regional
frequency" thing.
Hear here ;-)
As I’ve mentioned, I hadn’t even noticed that Spanish had that form. But
based on what I’ve seen so far, I’m inclined to think the movement/position
thing is either an artificial prescription or a mangled attempt at
description, while frequency of usage where they are interchangeable may
vary regionally, but there are cases where they’re not interchangeable.
wugi
2018-10-12 19:04:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by António Marques
Post by wugi
Post by Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Crossword puzzle. Clue: Here, in Juarez. Answer: ACA
Is that dialectal?
Theoretically, acá refers to movement, aquí to position. But
practically, it is more like a dialectal thing, or "regional
frequency" thing.
Hear here ;-)
As I’ve mentioned, I hadn’t even noticed that Spanish had that form. But
based on what I’ve seen so far, I’m inclined to think the movement/position
thing is either an artificial prescription or a mangled attempt at
description, while frequency of usage where they are interchangeable may
vary regionally, but there are cases where they’re not interchangeable.
I've never heard "aquí" in my family's Argentina, and "acá" has never
struck me (and it would have, at that time) while in Spain.
--
guido wugi
António Marques
2018-10-12 19:36:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by wugi
Post by António Marques
Post by wugi
Post by Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Crossword puzzle. Clue: Here, in Juarez. Answer: ACA
Is that dialectal?
Theoretically, acá refers to movement, aquí to position. But
practically, it is more like a dialectal thing, or "regional
frequency" thing.
Hear here ;-)
As I’ve mentioned, I hadn’t even noticed that Spanish had that form. But
based on what I’ve seen so far, I’m inclined to think the movement/position
thing is either an artificial prescription or a mangled attempt at
description, while frequency of usage where they are interchangeable may
vary regionally, but there are cases where they’re not interchangeable.
I've never heard "aquí" in my family's Argentina,
But do they say ‘estoy acá’ in response to ‘donde estás?’?
Post by wugi
and "acá" has never
struck me (and it would have, at that time) while in Spain.
I have the impression that the contexts which call for it are less likely
to occur in indirect communication (I.e. written, broadcasted, or with
strangers). I do not mean it’s a matter of register, but of the situations
themselves and pragmatics.
Morten St. George
2018-10-28 22:41:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Crossword puzzle. Clue: Here, in Juarez. Answer: ACA
Is that dialectal?
Is this thread what you call linguistics? Maybe I am in wrong forum after all. I usually use aquí, sometimes acá for emphasis, but I think it's largely a matter of personal preference, and note that people in different regions may have different preferences as Spanish usage is not completely uniform in all the countries where it is spoken.

It does not surprise me that you engage in crossword puzzles at the grammar school level. For your level, here's another clue for a three-letter answer: Boy of 50 A.D.
Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
2018-10-29 00:58:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Morten St. George
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Crossword puzzle. Clue: Here, in Juarez. Answer: ACA
Is that dialectal?
Is this thread what you call linguistics?
It is, yes.
Post by Morten St. George
I usually use aquí, sometimes acá for emphasis, but I think it's largely a matter of personal preference, and note that people in different regions may have different preferences as Spanish usage is not completely uniform in all the countries where it is spoken.
You don't need to tell that to ME, as I have been trying to acquire Spanish for decades, with very humiliating results (in the same time, I learnt Irish [Gaelic] from scratch to high-quality literary style, and I needed only two years to acquire conversational fluency in Polish). :)
António Marques
2018-10-29 01:39:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
Post by Morten St. George
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Crossword puzzle. Clue: Here, in Juarez. Answer: ACA
Is that dialectal?
Is this thread what you call linguistics?
It is, yes.
Post by Morten St. George
I usually use aquí, sometimes acá for emphasis, but I think it's largely
a matter of personal preference, and note that people in different
regions may have different preferences as Spanish usage is not
completely uniform in all the countries where it is spoken.
You don't need to tell that to ME, as I have been trying to acquire
Spanish for decades, with very humiliating results (in the same time, I
learnt Irish [Gaelic] from scratch to high-quality literary style, and I
needed only two years to acquire conversational fluency in Polish). :)
Good heavens, for a moment there I read ‘Pictish’.
Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
2018-10-29 02:12:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by António Marques
Post by Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
Post by Morten St. George
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Crossword puzzle. Clue: Here, in Juarez. Answer: ACA
Is that dialectal?
Is this thread what you call linguistics?
It is, yes.
Post by Morten St. George
I usually use aquí, sometimes acá for emphasis, but I think it's largely
a matter of personal preference, and note that people in different
regions may have different preferences as Spanish usage is not
completely uniform in all the countries where it is spoken.
You don't need to tell that to ME, as I have been trying to acquire
Spanish for decades, with very humiliating results (in the same time, I
learnt Irish [Gaelic] from scratch to high-quality literary style, and I
needed only two years to acquire conversational fluency in Polish). :)
Good heavens, for a moment there I read ‘Pictish’.
Pictish is a dead language. I would not bother to become fluent in Pictish, even if it were possible (in the way it is possible to become fluent in Classical Latin).
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