Discussion:
Language with recursive name
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Dingbat
2017-12-06 15:06:52 UTC
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Does this language have a recursive name?

Onondaga Nation Language (Onoñdaʔgegáʔ nigaweñoʔdeñʔ
(IPA: [onũdaʔɡeɡáʔ niɡawẽnoʔdẽʔ], literally "Onondaga is our language")
is the language of the Onondaga First Nation, one of the original five
constituent tribes of the League of the Iroquois (Haudenosaunee).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onondaga_language
b***@ihug.co.nz
2017-12-06 20:37:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dingbat
Does this language have a recursive name?
Onondaga Nation Language (Onoñdaʔgegáʔ nigaweñoʔdeñʔ
(IPA: [onũdaʔɡeɡáʔ niɡawẽnoʔdẽʔ], literally "Onondaga is our language")
is the language of the Onondaga First Nation, one of the original five
constituent tribes of the League of the Iroquois (Haudenosaunee).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onondaga_language
A feature of Onondaga as well as other Iroquoian languages is that
words translating nouns are often analyzable as having sentence-like
structure. The translation suggests that the second word above means
something like "it's our language", or maybe even "we-habitually-speak-it".
I wouldn't call this recursion, though.
FWIW, a French missionary vocabulary from the 17th century gives

nigwennoden ‘my language’

which looks quite like the word above.

http://eco.canadiana.ca/view/oocihm.49524/5?r=0&s=1
Adam Funk
2017-12-08 10:12:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Post by Dingbat
Does this language have a recursive name?
Onondaga Nation Language (Onoñdaʔgegáʔ nigaweñoʔdeñʔ
(IPA: [onũdaʔɡeɡáʔ niɡawẽnoʔdẽʔ], literally "Onondaga is our language")
is the language of the Onondaga First Nation, one of the original five
constituent tribes of the League of the Iroquois (Haudenosaunee).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onondaga_language
A feature of Onondaga as well as other Iroquoian languages is that
words translating nouns are often analyzable as having sentence-like
structure. The translation suggests that the second word above means
something like "it's our language", or maybe even "we-habitually-speak-it".
I wouldn't call this recursion, though.
Tautological, maybe?
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
FWIW, a French missionary vocabulary from the 17th century gives
nigwennoden ‘my language’
which looks quite like the word above.
http://eco.canadiana.ca/view/oocihm.49524/5?r=0&s=1
Interesting, thanks. I was aware that quite a few groups of people
have names for themselves that mean something like "our people" (& by
extension, "Cymraeg" means something like "of or pertaining to our
people"), but I hadn't heard of this until now.
--
The three-martini lunch is the epitome of American efficiency.
Where else can you get an earful, a bellyful and a snootful at
the same time? --- Gerald Ford
Helmut Richter
2017-12-08 10:36:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Interesting, thanks. I was aware that quite a few groups of people
have names for themselves that mean something like "our people" (& by
extension, "Cymraeg" means something like "of or pertaining to our
people"), but I hadn't heard of this until now.
Or simply "people", "humans" (bantu, anangu). And the others are those
who cannot speak (barbar, nemetskij). This is not meant derogative but
is mere observation: all people one knows since childhood can speak in
way one can understand, and when people appear who cannot they must be
something else than people.
--
Helmut Richter
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-12-08 18:15:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Helmut Richter
Post by Adam Funk
Interesting, thanks. I was aware that quite a few groups of people
have names for themselves that mean something like "our people" (& by
extension, "Cymraeg" means something like "of or pertaining to our
people"), but I hadn't heard of this until now.
Or simply "people", "humans" (bantu, anangu). And the others are those
who cannot speak (barbar, nemetskij). This is not meant derogative but
is mere observation: all people one knows since childhood can speak in
way one can understand, and when people appear who cannot they must be
something else than people.
That's why Slovenian and Slovakian have almost identical names in their
respective languages, because they speak with words; others just make
animal noises.
--
athel
b***@ihug.co.nz
2017-12-08 11:40:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Post by Dingbat
Does this language have a recursive name?
Onondaga Nation Language (Onoñdaʔgegáʔ nigaweñoʔdeñʔ
(IPA: [onũdaʔɡeɡáʔ niɡawẽnoʔdẽʔ], literally "Onondaga is our language")
is the language of the Onondaga First Nation, one of the original five
constituent tribes of the League of the Iroquois (Haudenosaunee).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onondaga_language
A feature of Onondaga as well as other Iroquoian languages is that
words translating nouns are often analyzable as having sentence-like
structure. The translation suggests that the second word above means
something like "it's our language", or maybe even "we-habitually-speak-it".
I wouldn't call this recursion, though.
Tautological, maybe?
Don't think so. If my guessing is right, the first word doesn't explicitly
say anything about language. In the closely related Seneca language
I find
ʔonɔ́taʔkeh 'on the hill, Onondaga reservation'
and with the 'characteristic' suffix:
ʔonɔ́taʔke:-ka:ʔ 'the Onondaga, lit. characterized by
being on the hill'
(Chafe, Seneca Morphology and Dictionary, 1967)

So if I can try some more speculative paraphrasing, maybe:

"Onondaga-fashion we-talk-that-way"

(Confession: I actually worked on this language, briefly, when
I was a student. But that was 50 years ago; it would take a while
to dig out my notes, and there might not be anything useful on
this particular expression. Hence the speculation and reasoning
from collateral sources.)
Adam Funk
2017-12-12 09:45:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Post by Adam Funk
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Post by Dingbat
Does this language have a recursive name?
Onondaga Nation Language (Onoñdaʔgegáʔ nigaweñoʔdeñʔ
(IPA: [onũdaʔɡeɡáʔ niɡawẽnoʔdẽʔ], literally "Onondaga is our language")
is the language of the Onondaga First Nation, one of the original five
constituent tribes of the League of the Iroquois (Haudenosaunee).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onondaga_language
A feature of Onondaga as well as other Iroquoian languages is that
words translating nouns are often analyzable as having sentence-like
structure. The translation suggests that the second word above means
something like "it's our language", or maybe even "we-habitually-speak-it".
I wouldn't call this recursion, though.
Tautological, maybe?
Don't think so. If my guessing is right, the first word doesn't explicitly
say anything about language. In the closely related Seneca language
I find
ʔonɔ́taʔkeh 'on the hill, Onondaga reservation'
ʔonɔ́taʔke:-ka:ʔ 'the Onondaga, lit. characterized by
being on the hill'
(Chafe, Seneca Morphology and Dictionary, 1967)
"Onondaga-fashion we-talk-that-way"
(Confession: I actually worked on this language, briefly, when
I was a student. But that was 50 years ago; it would take a while
to dig out my notes, and there might not be anything useful on
this particular expression. Hence the speculation and reasoning
from collateral sources.)
Interesting, thanks.
--
I understand about indecision
But I don't care if I get behind
People living in competition
All I want is to have my peace of mind ---Boston
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