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Khalub tree & Kelapa coconut
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Daud Deden
2018-09-17 14:46:25 UTC
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University of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology
and Anthropology Papers
University of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology
and Anthropology
2009

The KHALUB-tree in Mesopotamia: Myth or Reality?

Naomi F. Miller
University of Pennsylvania, ***@upenn.edu
Alhena Gadotti
Daud Deden
2018-09-17 14:49:46 UTC
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Nowadays, it is the rare person who has direct experience
"waiting until the cows come home", or has noticed that
"the acorn doesn't fall far from the tree". For the cultures of
antiquity, however, the natural world was an explicit source
of meaning and reference. The process of trying to identify
the real-world referent for an unknown plant is both an intelďżžlectual puzzle and an act of empathy, as we try to envision
an ancient world, or at least a word. We hope that this small
offering reflects the same enthusiasm for nature and plants
that has always informed the research and teaching of Gordon
Hillman, to whom it is dedicated.
For the early civilizations of Mesopotamia, terms for
plants occur on a variety of media. Most of the extant texts
are preserved on clay tablets inscribed in cuneiform. Much
as one can write different languages with the Roman alphaďżžbet, the cuneiform writing system, which has syllabic and
logographic signs, was used for a variety of languages from
different language families (e.g. Sumerian, of unknown affinďżžity; Akkadian, a Semitic language; Hittite, an Indo-European
language). Plant names occur in such diverse contexts as
word lists, administrative and economic texts, ritual texts
and royal inscriptions among others. Unfortunately for
plant identifications, meanings can be assigned to words
arbitrarily, the referents of words may change over time, and
ancient Mesopotamian texts that describe or allude to plants
are ambiguous at best. It is therefore a methodologically
sound approach to base identifications on a combination of
phytogeographical, epigraphic, etymological, iconographic,
ethnobotanical and archaeobotanical evidence. When one of
us (Gadotti) approached the other (Miller) with epigraphic
information about the Sumerian KHALUB-tree (Akkadian
khaluppu), we decided to follow the trail as far as it would
go. Although most of the lines of evidence can be used, it
will be seen that a definitive identification still eludes us.
Nevertheless, this exercise demonstrates how to investigate
the problem, spells out the qualifications and unavoidable
ambiguities that must be dealt with, and provides a base
against which one may assess references to this tree in any
new texts that have yet to be discovered.
The best-known reference to the KHALUB-tree comes
from the Sumerian composition "Gilgamesh, Enkidu and the
Netherworld", which mentions a tree that was planted along
the Euphrates; in the beginning, "there was a solitary tree, a
solitaJy KHALUB-tree, a solitary tree, planted on the bank
of the pure Euphrates" (Gadotti 2005, 305). In the composiďżžtion, not only is the tree originally infested by the terrible
Anzud-bird, but also by a snake immune to charms, and by
a succubus. It is furthermore associated with the manufacture
of possibly ritual furniture for the goddess Inana and of a
ball and a stick, tools for Gilgamesh's ballgame (for recent
treatments on the nature of the ballgame, see Cooper 2002,
Klein 2002). There is no evidence to support an identification
of poplar, willow or other riparian species (see Table 25.1).
Rather, the text indicates that the tree is planted, i.e. it occurs
in the context of cultivation. Given its role in the story, the
term KHALUB could refer to a mythical tree, but this seems
unlikely; the mythical uses of the wood are similar to those
reported in more fact-based texts.
The existence of a real KHALUB-tree is made evident
by its appearance in administrative texts from the Early
Dynastic and Ur III periods (mid to late third millennium
BC), as well as in the royal inscriptions of the rulers of Laďżžgash, which date to the same period. For example, in a late
third millennium royal inscription, it is specified that "from
Gubin, the land of the KHALUB-tree, he (Gudea) brought
down the KHALUB-wood and he fashioned it into the Sharur
bird" (Gudea St. B vi 45-46, in Edzard 1997). The toponym
Gubi is attested only sporadically in the Sumerian texts of
the third millennium BCE (see Edzard et al. 1977, 62). In
addition to the above-mentioned passage, where the place
name is writtengu-bi-in", one should mention Gudea Statue
D iv 9 (Edzard 1997), where Gubin is written gu-bi'", and a
Sumerian composition attested in Ur III and Old Babylonian
texts known as the "Curse of Agade" (Cooper 1983), where
(Contd)
Daud Deden
2018-09-17 15:02:04 UTC
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the place name is writtengu-bi-na, gu-biki-na, and gu-bi-na
(line 152). At least three different locations have been sug￾gested for this place name; an area near Magan (the region
of the Jebel Akhdar, Oman) Bactria or the Zagros (Edzard
et a/. 1977, 62 for bibliography). In the "Curse of Agade"
Gubi was the homeland ofthe Gutians, who, according to the
tradition represented by the composition, were responsible
for the demise of the Agade empire. Some scholars place
gu-bi-(in}*' in the Persian Gulf area because it is mentioned
in the Gudea inscription along with Magan, Meluhha (the
Indus valley area) and Dilmun (Bahrein); and in another
inscription, KHALUB-wood is said to be imported from
Magan (Cooper 1983, 249). The "Curse ofAgade" mentions
gu-bi-(in}*' as the mountain home of the Gutians, so "Wilcke
( .. . ) now suggests the Zagros area" (Cooper 1983, 149). Gubi
as the provenience of the KHALUB-tree is consistent in
texts dating from the third to the first millenium BCE (Early
Dynastic to Neo-Assyrian times).
Ur III administrative texts give a coherent picture; the
KHALUB-tree was used for chairs, legs of beds, tables and
stools, and its scraps were used to make vessels. Occasion￾ally, these (fruit and/or seed) of the tree were listed as food
offerings along with dried fruit (apples and raisins; see, among
others, Pettinato and Picchioni 1978, no. 85, Waetzold eta/.
1994,no. 739).
Furthermore, Sumerian literary texts from the Old Ba￾bylonian period (2000- 1600 BCE) sometimes associate the
KHALUB-tree with the TASKARIN (Akk. taskarinnu),
which is thought to be boxwood (Buxus sp.); see for instance
"Gilgamesh Enkidu and the Netherworld" (Gadotti 2005,
Shaffer 1963 ), "Gilgamesh and Huwawa," version A (George
1999, 149-161).
Finally, Akkadian sources also provide useful information
about the tree itself:
Taxa• AssociatedwiOt Plan.tedor
flowing water grows wild
Riparian types-Populus (poplar), Salix yes yes
(willow), Tamari.x (tamarisk),
Platanus (plane)
Phoenix dactylifera (date p aim) yes (also watered) planted
Conifers- Juniperus Guniper), Pinus N o wild only
(pine)
Quercus (oak) N o wild only
Pistacia (pistachio) N o yes
Prunus spp. (stone fruits-almond, no (but watered) y es
cherry, plum, et al.)
Pome frui s~us (apple, pear), no (but watered) yes
Cydonia (quince), et al.
Elaeagnus angustifolia (Russian olive) no (but watered) yes
Ziziphus Gujube, et al.) no (but may yes
be watered)
(i) It seems that the tree was not particularly big, as it came
in small logs (e.g. Lanfranchi and Parpola 1990, no. 208,
Marzalm 1991, no. 46;
(ii) The KHALUB-tree produces se (seeds or fruits) which are
edible; the seeds and leaves of the tree appear in medical
texts (CAD KH 56 s. v. khaluppu);
(iii) By the Neo-Assyrian period, there is some indication that
the KHALUB-tree (written u-lu-pu) was grown in northern
Mesopotamia in controlled environments, namely in orchards,
as evidenced by the so-called Harran Census (CAD KH 56
s. v. kmluppu, Fales 1973).
Bothmythical and non-mythical KHALUBrefertotheuse of
the wood for furniture and small objects, and the presumably
small or shrubby tree may be planted. The mythical version
is further associated with water. The non-mythical tree may
grow either wild orin orchards, has useful fruits (we presume
the non-botanical concept of a fleshy fruit) and/or seeds with
medicinal use, and it seems to be widespread in west Asia.
Miller's first thought on hearing the textual evidence was,
"must be some kind of Prunus (stone fruit)", but it is worth
considering some alternatives.
Many scholars tentatively translated "oak" for this term
(see CAD KH 55- 56 s. v. halupp u), but there is no specific
evidence provided for this (e.g. see Glassner 2000, 26, Powell
1987, 146, van de Mieroop 1992, 159, Veldhuis 1997, 156).
Table 25.1 provides a non-exhaustive list of some common
trees of west Asia. It summarises some of the key traits men￾tioned in the texts in relation to various taxa; types associated
with flowing water, some of the most common genera of
the west Asian woodland Guniper, pine, oak, pistachio) and
several fruit-producing trees.
Based on the clues provided by the ancient texts it would
be hard to decide among Ziziphus sp. (e.g. Z. jujuba (L. )Lam.,
Small or Wood Fruit SeedwiOt
sluubby habit (at fme- jleslty medicinal
least some) grained uses**
tamarisk, willow tamarisk no no
no no yes yes
juniper (some) juniper juniper "berry" juniper
"beny"
yes no no; edible nut no
yes yes no; edible nut yes
yes yes yes (except yes
almond)
yes yes y es yes
yes; frequently medium yes yes
spiny
yes; frequently no yes yes
spiny
• Not e that many of these trees have relatively undisputed names in Akkadian or Sumerian: poplar, willow, tamarisk, date, juniper, oak (Akkadian only),
pistachio, almond, apple, pear, quince (Postgate 1983; Veldhuis 1997).
**Some parts of nearly all of these plants have some medicinal use reported; the seeds of the riparian species are not among them. For these, and oak,
pistachio, Russian olive, stone and pome fruits, see entries in the Flora of Iraq; for the date palm (Phoenix dactylifera) and jujube (Zizyplms jujuba), see
http :l/www.hort.purdue. edu/newcrop/Indices/index _ ab. html
Table 25.1. Nonexhaustive list of some common tree genera of west Asia and traits associated with KHALUB in the texts.
- download the PDF for the rest

This khalub is IMO almost certainly the coconut palm, pokok kelapa, Coco nucifera.

-lub ~ ***@Tocharian: leaf, ~
list(o)@Croatian: leaf, ~ roof/leaf/leave/loft/eave/loaf, it refers to palm frond thatch, such as duom palm huts on the Red Sea shore.

DDeden
Tropical Forester,
Paleo-etymologist
Daud Deden
2018-09-17 15:28:01 UTC
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https://www.researchgate.net/publication/252628763_The_KHALUB-tree_in_Mesopotamia_Myth_or_Reality
---

The authors attempted to trace khalub tree to mahlub cherry, but that is the wrong direction, coconut palm appears to be the source; Oman probably was a an import station from coastal India.
Daud Deden
2018-09-17 16:00:33 UTC
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***@Sum: type of tree
***@Akk: type of tree
***@Mly: coconut palm
***@Mly: dark(thatch hut)
***@Grk: dark/black
***@Ltn: dark/black
***@Ger: dark(night)
***@Mly: night
***@PMbti: thatched hut
***@Mbtti: leaves for thatch
Mon/mom + guo/round + lu/leaf
Khalub (mon) kha lub
Kelapa, (men)gelap

I nailed it.
Anyone think I'm wrong?
DKleinecke
2018-09-17 17:14:16 UTC
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Post by Daud Deden
Mon/mom + guo/round + lu/leaf
Khalub (mon) kha lub
Kelapa, (men)gelap
I nailed it.
Anyone think I'm wrong?
That would be easier to answer if we were informed about
what you are asserting. What is the proposition?
Daud Deden
2018-09-17 18:59:07 UTC
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Post by DKleinecke
Post by Daud Deden
Mon/mom + guo/round + lu/leaf
Khalub (mon) kha lub
Kelapa, (men)gelap
I nailed it.
Anyone think I'm wrong?
That would be easier to answer if we were informed about
what you are asserting. What is the proposition?
My 3rd post tailed with this:

This khalub is IMO almost certainly the coconut palm, pokok kelapa, Coco nucifera.

-lub ~ ***@Tocharian: leaf, ~
list(o)@Croatian: leaf, ~ roof/leaf/leave/loft/eave/loaf, it refers to palm frond thatch, such as duom palm huts on the Red Sea shore.

DDeden
Tropical Forester,
Paleo-etymologist
---
Ruud Harmsen
2018-09-17 18:28:16 UTC
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Mon, 17 Sep 2018 09:00:33 -0700 (PDT): Daud Deden
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nigrum#Latin
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/niger#Latin
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Nacht#Etymology

Actually related! Congratulations, your beginning to learn!
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Daud Deden
2018-09-17 19:03:25 UTC
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Post by Ruud Harmsen
Mon, 17 Sep 2018 09:00:33 -0700 (PDT): Daud Deden
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nigrum#Latin
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/niger#Latin
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Nacht#Etymology
Actually related! Congratulations, your beginning to learn!
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
I expected Neo-etymology cites. I also expected no answer to my question. Thanks for the response, it is probably the best you can do.
b***@ihug.co.nz
2018-09-18 02:23:35 UTC
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Post by Daud Deden
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Mon, 17 Sep 2018 09:00:33 -0700 (PDT): Daud Deden
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nigrum#Latin
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/niger#Latin
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Nacht#Etymology
Actually related! Congratulations, your beginning to learn!
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
I expected Neo-etymology cites. I also expected no answer to my question. Thanks for the response, it is probably the best you can do.
Thanks for the condescension, Dood.
I think I can do better.
Answer to question ("Am I wrong?"): Probably, on past performance.
But then, I'm not particularly interested in the identity of the Khalub
tree. Why don't you try out your theory on some people who are?
My advice if you do: Leave out all the words from "mengelap" on down.
They have nothing to do with the question, and their inclusion will just prejudice people against your theory.
Daud Deden
2018-09-18 03:33:26 UTC
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Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Post by Daud Deden
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Mon, 17 Sep 2018 09:00:33 -0700 (PDT): Daud Deden
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nigrum#Latin
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/niger#Latin
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Nacht#Etymology
Actually related! Congratulations, your beginning to learn!
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
I expected Neo-etymology cites. I also expected no answer to my question. Thanks for the response, it is probably the best you can do.
Thanks for the condescension, Dood.
Sorry, is this Ruud, Ross or Elizabeth?
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
I think I can do better.
Wonderful.
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Answer to question ("Am I wrong?"): Probably,
Aside from typical European-sourced ignorant-arrogant attitudes, do you have a leg to stand on, or are you merely repeating the usual tripe?

on past performance.
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
But then, I'm not particularly interested in the identity of the Khalub tree.
I was hoping Peter would say something. His silence speaks loudly.

Why don't you try out your theory on some people who are?

Please suggest a few. I already posted to Egyptsearh, Sci.lang, and sent an email to the article's authors, one who promptly rejected my claim (as expected).
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
My advice if you do: Leave out all the words from "mengelap" on down.
That would be silly. I don't do 'silly'.
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
They have nothing to do with the question,
Au contraire.

and their inclusion will just prejudice people against your theory.

Of course. Prejudice blinds & deafens people to the reality of nature.

I'm a naturalist, so not my problem.

Bananas were transited from Malay Archipelago to Uganda >4ka. Coconuts & bananas are native to Malaya, not Africa. Parsimoniously, people following the monsoons took items from Malaya to Africa, perhaps via Oman. Their return route brought ivory etc. to east Asia.
Ruud Harmsen
2018-09-18 05:02:20 UTC
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Post by Daud Deden
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Post by Daud Deden
I expected Neo-etymology cites. I also expected no answer to my question. Thanks for the response, it is probably the best you can do.
Thanks for the condescension, Dood.
Mon, 17 Sep 2018 20:33:26 -0700 (PDT): Daud Deden
Post by Daud Deden
Sorry, is this Ruud, Ross or Elizabeth?
If you learned to snip properly, in a proper Usenet newsreader, you
could see. See above.
Post by Daud Deden
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
I think I can do better.
Wonderful.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Daud Deden
2018-09-18 10:08:58 UTC
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Post by Ruud Harmsen
Post by Daud Deden
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Post by Daud Deden
I expected Neo-etymology cites. I also expected no answer to my question. Thanks for the response, it is probably the best you can do.
Thanks for the condescension, Dood.
Mon, 17 Sep 2018 20:33:26 -0700 (PDT): Daud Deden
Post by Daud Deden
Sorry, is this Ruud, Ross or Elizabeth?
If you learned to snip properly, in a proper Usenet newsreader, you
could see. See above.
Post by Daud Deden
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
I think I can do better.
Wonderful.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
I think this must be Ruud.
Ruud, what is the topic of this thread, and do you have anything relevant to contribute?
Ruud Harmsen
2018-09-18 11:43:35 UTC
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Tue, 18 Sep 2018 03:08:58 -0700 (PDT): Daud Deden
Post by Daud Deden
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Post by Daud Deden
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Post by Daud Deden
I expected Neo-etymology cites. I also expected no answer to my question. Thanks for the response, it is probably the best you can do.
Thanks for the condescension, Dood.
Mon, 17 Sep 2018 20:33:26 -0700 (PDT): Daud Deden
Post by Daud Deden
Sorry, is this Ruud, Ross or Elizabeth?
If you learned to snip properly, in a proper Usenet newsreader, you
could see. See above.
Post by Daud Deden
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
I think I can do better.
Wonderful.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
I think this must be Ruud.
What do you find difficult in:
==
On Tuesday, September 18, 2018 at 1:05:03 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen
Post by Daud Deden
If you learned to snip properly, in a proper Usenet newsreader, you
could see. See above.
==

Just count the number of >'s.

This is almost 20 years old now:
http://rudhar.com/sfreview/plyafter.htm
Post by Daud Deden
Ruud, what is the topic of this thread, and do you have anything relevant to contribute?
Debunking your obviously invalid etymologies is a worthy task.
Although also a waste of time.

What do _you_ think is the topic of this thread? See subject header.
But will you explain? What your point is?
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Peter T. Daniels
2018-09-18 12:36:47 UTC
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Post by Daud Deden
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
But then, I'm not particularly interested in the identity of the Khalub tree.
I was hoping Peter would say something. His silence speaks loudly.
Who, me? I haven't the slightest idea what a Khalub tree is, or what
you're talking about, and I certainly don't peruse your postings with
anything like the obsessive behavior exhibited by Ross. If he would
just ignore you, you might get bored and go away.
Ruud Harmsen
2018-09-18 13:11:19 UTC
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Tue, 18 Sep 2018 05:36:47 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Daud Deden
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
But then, I'm not particularly interested in the identity of the Khalub tree.
I was hoping Peter would say something. His silence speaks loudly.
Who, me? I haven't the slightest idea what a Khalub tree is, or what
you're talking about, and I certainly don't peruse your postings with
anything like the obsessive behavior exhibited by Ross. If he would
just ignore you, you might get bored and go away.
Who is Ross?
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Peter T. Daniels
2018-09-18 13:29:08 UTC
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Post by Ruud Harmsen
Tue, 18 Sep 2018 05:36:47 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Daud Deden
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
But then, I'm not particularly interested in the identity of the Khalub tree.
I was hoping Peter would say something. His silence speaks loudly.
Who, me? I haven't the slightest idea what a Khalub tree is, or what
you're talking about, and I certainly don't peruse your postings with
anything like the obsessive behavior exhibited by Ross. If he would
just ignore you, you might get bored and go away.
Who is Ross?
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
It must've been 10 or 15 years ago that Ross explained why his email
name is what it is. It's rude of you to ask.
Ruud Harmsen
2018-09-19 08:56:41 UTC
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Tue, 18 Sep 2018 06:29:08 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Tue, 18 Sep 2018 05:36:47 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Daud Deden
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
But then, I'm not particularly interested in the identity of the Khalub tree.
I was hoping Peter would say something. His silence speaks loudly.
Who, me? I haven't the slightest idea what a Khalub tree is, or what
you're talking about, and I certainly don't peruse your postings with
anything like the obsessive behavior exhibited by Ross. If he would
just ignore you, you might get bored and go away.
Who is Ross?
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
It must've been 10 or 15 years ago that Ross explained why his email
name is what it is. It's rude of you to ask.
But I still don't know _which_ e-mail name.
Ruud Harmsen
2018-09-19 09:01:57 UTC
Reply
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Post by Ruud Harmsen
Post by Peter T. Daniels
It must've been 10 or 15 years ago that Ross explained why his email
name is what it is. It's rude of you to ask.
But I still don't know _which_ e-mail name.
Now know. Clark. Still no why. Nicknames = strange. Why not just be
clear and open?
Ruud Harmsen
2018-09-19 09:03:31 UTC
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The name Ross is mentioned bij inmates so often in the context of Ded
Dauden, that it almost seems as if it is _hez_ real name.
António Marques
2018-09-18 16:35:48 UTC
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Post by Ruud Harmsen
Tue, 18 Sep 2018 05:36:47 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Daud Deden
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
But then, I'm not particularly interested in the identity of the Khalub tree.
I was hoping Peter would say something. His silence speaks loudly.
Who, me? I haven't the slightest idea what a Khalub tree is, or what
you're talking about, and I certainly don't peruse your postings with
anything like the obsessive behavior exhibited by Ross. If he would
just ignore you, you might get bored and go away.
Who is Ross?
Ross is another name for a Kiwi.
Daud Deden
2018-09-19 11:22:53 UTC
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Post by António Marques
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Tue, 18 Sep 2018 05:36:47 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Daud Deden
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
But then, I'm not particularly interested in the identity of the Khalub tree.
I was hoping Peter would say something. His silence speaks loudly.
Who, me? I haven't the slightest idea what a Khalub tree is, or what
you're talking about, and I certainly don't peruse your postings with
anything like the obsessive behavior exhibited by Ross. If he would
just ignore you, you might get bored and go away.
Who is Ross?
Ross is another name for a Kiwi.
Eureka!

Ross ~ kiwi
Ruud ~ wiki

A simple syllable permutation.
Gee, thanks Ant!
Ruud Harmsen
2018-09-18 11:45:38 UTC
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Just count the > signs, and you just KNOW who wrote what. That's what
that system was designed for. Google Graups may wreck it for you,
though. Your bad.
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Post by Daud Deden
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Mon, 17 Sep 2018 09:00:33 -0700 (PDT): Daud Deden
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nigrum#Latin
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/niger#Latin
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Nacht#Etymology
Actually related! Congratulations, your beginning to learn!
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
I expected Neo-etymology cites. I also expected no answer to my question. Thanks for the response, it is probably the best you can do.
Thanks for the condescension, Dood.
I think I can do better.
Answer to question ("Am I wrong?"): Probably, on past performance.
But then, I'm not particularly interested in the identity of the Khalub
tree. Why don't you try out your theory on some people who are?
My advice if you do: Leave out all the words from "mengelap" on down.
They have nothing to do with the question, and their inclusion will just prejudice people against your theory.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Daud Deden
2018-09-19 11:35:09 UTC
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Post by Daud Deden
Mon/mom + guo/round + lu/leaf
Khalub (mon) kha lub
Kelapa, (men)gelap
Louver
Meaning "overlapping strips in a window" (to let in air but keep out rain) first recorded 1550s.

Louvre, early 14c., "domed turret-like structure atop a building to disperse smoke and admit light," from Old French lovier, of uncertain origin.


DD ~ David ~ Da'ud ~ Diode ~ ∆^¥°∆

MP wrote:
Coconut = kokos

Palm tree = palma

Those aren't Croatian words (obviously), but imported.
Hut = koliba (It could be that the "li" is from "list".

Overlap = preklop (noun) or preklapanje (verb) also has "lap" as the main part. "Prek" would be like "over".

On 18.9.2018. 0:11, DDeden wrote:
***@Croat: leaf
in ancient Mesopotamia/Sumeria, I think leaf was lub.
I wrote a Sci.Lang post about a mythical tree in the Epic of Gilgamesh (bible-like story from Sumeria), I found that the mythical tree was most likely a coconut palm tree imported to Babylon area from India or Sumatra.
Post by Daud Deden
I nailed it.
Anyone think I'm wrong?
Daud Deden
2018-09-30 17:25:34 UTC
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Post by Daud Deden
Post by Daud Deden
Mon/mom + guo/round + lu/leaf
Khalub (mon) kha lub
Kelapa, (men)gelap
Louver
Meaning "overlapping strips in a window" (to let in air but keep out rain) first recorded 1550s.
Louvre, early 14c., "domed turret-like structure atop a building to disperse smoke and admit light," from Old French lovier, of uncertain origin.
DD ~ David ~ Da'ud ~ Diode ~ ∆^¥°∆
Coconut = kokos
Palm tree = palma
Those aren't Croatian words (obviously), but imported.
Hut = koliba (It could be that the "li" is from "list".
Overlap = preklop (noun) or preklapanje (verb) also has "lap" as the main part. "Prek" would be like "over".
in ancient Mesopotamia/Sumeria, I think leaf was lub.
I wrote a Sci.Lang post about a mythical tree in the Epic of Gilgamesh (bible-like story from Sumeria), I found that the mythical tree was most likely a coconut palm tree imported to Babylon area from India or Sumatra.
Post by Daud Deden
I nailed it.
Anyone think I'm wrong?
Nope. Good.

ngongo leaves: Mbuti women shingle ***@Mbuti/***@PP dome hut
with large ngo leaf/leaves/fo.liage

from that we get: levitate/liberate/alleviate/syaduof=dipper/lifter/levy/Libra etc.

Still don't know link to ***@Mly: leaf.
Daud Deden
2018-10-03 07:03:20 UTC
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Levy bluejeans, name was Loeb, changed to Levy in US

***@Arabic: (water) lifter
***@German: lift, lever up
***@German: laud, praise
***@German: leaf
***@Malay: leaf
***@German: running machine (bicycle)
***@Malay: coconut (nut)
***@Malay: coconut (fronds) ***@Aztec: sap/lamp/foliage
Daud Deden
2018-10-03 07:28:44 UTC
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Errata:

Nuir -> niur
Tlapa: lamp, drape, leaf(?)
b***@ihug.co.nz
2018-10-03 11:17:47 UTC
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Post by Daud Deden
Levy bluejeans, name was Loeb, changed to Levy in US
No, if there is a distinction it is kelapa for the nut, especially
dried, nyiur for the tree as a whole. Nothing specifically about
fronds in either.
Daud Deden
2018-10-04 03:58:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Post by Daud Deden
Levy bluejeans, name was Loeb, changed to Levy in US
No, if there is a distinction it is kelapa for the nut, especially
dried, nyiur for the tree as a whole. Nothing specifically about
fronds in either.
I don't know the sources for your claims.

Niur is close to ngo, ngongo is the large leaf used to shingle domes.
Kelapa is close to copra (dried nut meat).
Daud Deden
2018-10-04 10:15:01 UTC
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Wed, Oct 3, 2018, 3:28 AM Daud Deden <***@gmail.com> wrote:
Errata:

Nuir -> niur
Tlapa: lamp, drape, leaf(?)

Carlos L. claims tlapa as rope & lampwick, I add tape. M-Polyn made rope from coconut.
-

***@Aztec: daytime, (local) people.

Tlaca ~ ***@German: day
Tlaca ~ ***@German: clan?
Daud Deden
2018-10-04 12:39:53 UTC
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Post by Daud Deden
Nuir -> niur
Tlapa: lamp, drape, leaf(?)
Carlos L. claims tlapa as rope & lampwick, I add tape. M-Polyn made rope from coconut.
-
Qidlik=***@Innuit: oil lamp w/ wick
Xyua.lua.xyua ~ ki(n)dli(ng)k
***@ODutch: cup-bowl = oil lamp
***@Hebrew: eternal flame
***@Aztec: flame
***@Azrec: fire(drill)
b***@ihug.co.nz
2018-10-04 21:08:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Daud Deden
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Post by Daud Deden
Levy bluejeans, name was Loeb, changed to Levy in US
No, if there is a distinction it is kelapa for the nut, especially
dried, nyiur for the tree as a whole. Nothing specifically about
fronds in either.
I don't know the sources for your claims.
The sources for my claims are several dictionaries.
What are the sources for your claims?
Post by Daud Deden
Niur is close to ngo, ngongo is the large leaf used to shingle domes.
Kelapa is close to copra (dried nut meat).
Daud Deden
2018-10-05 01:03:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Post by Daud Deden
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Post by Daud Deden
Levy bluejeans, name was Loeb, changed to Levy in US
No, if there is a distinction it is kelapa for the nut, especially
dried, nyiur for the tree as a whole. Nothing specifically about
fronds in either.
I don't know the sources for your claims.
The sources for my claims are several dictionaries.
What are the sources for your claims?
Nyiur is Banjar, South Kalimantan.
In Malaya, I heard only kelapa.
Pokok kelapa = coconut palm.
Daun kelapa muda = young leaves of coconut palm, used in weaving etc.

Leave heave weave/web
Loaf lift lev life
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Post by Daud Deden
Niur is close to ngo, ngongo is the large leaf used to shingle domes.
Kelapa is close to copra (dried nut meat).
b***@ihug.co.nz
2018-10-05 03:58:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Daud Deden
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Post by Daud Deden
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Post by Daud Deden
Levy bluejeans, name was Loeb, changed to Levy in US
No, if there is a distinction it is kelapa for the nut, especially
dried, nyiur for the tree as a whole. Nothing specifically about
fronds in either.
I don't know the sources for your claims.
The sources for my claims are several dictionaries.
What are the sources for your claims?
Nyiur is Banjar, South Kalimantan.
possibly, but not only
Post by Daud Deden
In Malaya, I heard only kelapa.
Pokok kelapa = coconut palm.
Daun kelapa muda = young leaves of coconut palm, used in weaving etc.
So what is the basis for your claim that nyiur/niur/nuir is
"coconut (nut)" and kelapa is "coconut (fronds)".
Post by Daud Deden
Leave heave weave/web
Loaf lift lev life
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Post by Daud Deden
Niur is close to ngo, ngongo is the large leaf used to shingle domes.
Kelapa is close to copra (dried nut meat).
Daud Deden
2018-10-05 07:19:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Post by Daud Deden
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Post by Daud Deden
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Post by Daud Deden
Levy bluejeans, name was Loeb, changed to Levy in US
No, if there is a distinction it is kelapa for the nut, especially
dried, nyiur for the tree as a whole. Nothing specifically about
fronds in either.
I don't know the sources for your claims.
The sources for my claims are several dictionaries.
What are the sources for your claims?
Nyiur is Banjar, South Kalimantan.
possibly, but not only
Correct.
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Post by Daud Deden
In Malaya, I heard only kelapa.
Pokok kelapa = coconut palm.
Daun kelapa muda = young leaves of coconut palm, used in weaving etc.
So what is the basis for your claim that nyiur/niur/nuir is
"coconut (nut)" and kelapa is "coconut (fronds)".
I recalled "Nyiur ikan" (a meal recipe of coconut meat & fish),
and, as above, "daun kelapa muda" in weaving of fronds.
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Post by Daud Deden
Leave heave weave/web
Loaf lift lev life
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Post by Daud Deden
Niur is close to ngo, ngongo is the large leaf used to shingle domes.
Kelapa is close to copra (dried nut meat).
b***@ihug.co.nz
2018-10-05 11:27:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Daud Deden
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Post by Daud Deden
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Post by Daud Deden
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Post by Daud Deden
Levy bluejeans, name was Loeb, changed to Levy in US
No, if there is a distinction it is kelapa for the nut, especially
dried, nyiur for the tree as a whole. Nothing specifically about
fronds in either.
I don't know the sources for your claims.
The sources for my claims are several dictionaries.
What are the sources for your claims?
Nyiur is Banjar, South Kalimantan.
possibly, but not only
Correct.
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Post by Daud Deden
In Malaya, I heard only kelapa.
Pokok kelapa = coconut palm.
Daun kelapa muda = young leaves of coconut palm, used in weaving etc.
So what is the basis for your claim that nyiur/niur/nuir is
"coconut (nut)" and kelapa is "coconut (fronds)".
I recalled "Nyiur ikan" (a meal recipe of coconut meat & fish),
Cognates of n(y)iur can be found all over Austronesian.
It refers to Cocos nucifera -- as with fruit trees in general it
can refer to the whole plant or its fruit, if context makes it
clear which you're talking about.
Post by Daud Deden
and, as above, "daun kelapa muda" in weaving of fronds.
Well, the "daun" is the frond(s), isn't it?
I don't know kelapa beyond Malay, and have no idea of its etymology.
Judging from the dictionaries it seems to be more common than n(y)iur.
Post by Daud Deden
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Post by Daud Deden
Leave heave weave/web
Loaf lift lev life
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Post by Daud Deden
Niur is close to ngo, ngongo is the large leaf used to shingle domes.
Kelapa is close to copra (dried nut meat).
Daud Deden
2018-10-06 02:18:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Post by Daud Deden
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Post by Daud Deden
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Post by Daud Deden
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Post by Daud Deden
Levy bluejeans, name was Loeb, changed to Levy in US
No, if there is a distinction it is kelapa for the nut, especially
dried, nyiur for the tree as a whole. Nothing specifically about
fronds in either.
I don't know the sources for your claims.
The sources for my claims are several dictionaries.
What are the sources for your claims?
Nyiur is Banjar, South Kalimantan.
possibly, but not only
Correct.
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Post by Daud Deden
In Malaya, I heard only kelapa.
Pokok kelapa = coconut palm.
Daun kelapa muda = young leaves of coconut palm, used in weaving etc.
So what is the basis for your claim that nyiur/niur/nuir is
"coconut (nut)" and kelapa is "coconut (fronds)".
I recalled "Nyiur ikan" (a meal recipe of coconut meat & fish),
Cognates of n(y)iur can be found all over Austronesian.
It refers to Cocos nuci
Yes, I presume nucifera means nut-bearer. Nyiur might correlate to nut/nugi-/ nux. However it might instead derive from ngongo (broad leaves to shingle huts).


fera -- as with fruit trees in general it
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
can refer to the whole plant or its fruit, if context makes it
clear which you're talking about.
Post by Daud Deden
and, as above, "daun kelapa muda" in weaving of fronds.
Well, the "daun" is the frond(s), isn't it?
I don't know kelapa beyond Malay, and have no idea of its etymology.
Judging from the dictionaries it seems to be more common than n(y)iur.
Post by Daud Deden
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Post by Daud Deden
Leave heave weave/web
Loaf lift lev life
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Post by Daud Deden
Niur is close to ngo, ngongo is the large leaf used to shingle domes.
Kelapa is close to copra (dried nut meat).
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