Discussion:
Gav?
(too old to reply)
Ruud Harmsen
2017-12-18 15:27:47 UTC
Permalink

"Last Christmas, I gav you my heart.
But the very next day, you gav it away."

Gav? That's what I hear. Later on, it is actually sung as 'gave'.

It that some dialect?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wham!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Michael
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Finchley
Peter T. Daniels
2017-12-18 16:00:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ruud Harmsen
http://youtu.be/E8gmARGvPlI
"Last Christmas, I gav you my heart.
But the very next day, you gav it away."
Gav? That's what I hear. Later on, it is actually sung as 'gave'.
It that some dialect?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wham!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Michael
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Finchley
You're still (or again) trying to derive dialect information from songs?

I assume you mean [g&v]. [&] is a better vowel for singing than [ej]. It's as
simple as that. More open vowels mean less strain on the articulatory organs.
Ruud Harmsen
2017-12-18 17:57:04 UTC
Permalink
Mon, 18 Dec 2017 08:00:31 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
You're still (or again) trying to derive dialect information from songs?
Actually it was something I've been wondering about for about as long
as the song is publicly known, but I never bothered to ask anywhere
yet.
Ruud Harmsen
2017-12-18 17:55:04 UTC
Permalink
Mon, 18 Dec 2017 08:00:31 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ruud Harmsen
http://youtu.be/E8gmARGvPlI
"Last Christmas, I gav you my heart.
But the very next day, you gav it away."
Gav? That's what I hear. Later on, it is actually sung as 'gave'.
It that some dialect?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wham!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Michael
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Finchley
You're still (or again) trying to derive dialect information from songs?
Of course! All the time. What else?
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I assume you mean [g&v]. [&] is a better vowel for singing than [ej]. It's as
simple as that.
Then why doesn't anybody else ever do that when singing? And why does
he do it where the word is short, and NOT where it is very long?
Post by Peter T. Daniels
More open vowels mean less strain on the articulatory organs.
Yes, I can imagine that.
António Marques
2017-12-18 18:32:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Mon, 18 Dec 2017 08:00:31 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ruud Harmsen
http://youtu.be/E8gmARGvPlI
"Last Christmas, I gav you my heart.
But the very next day, you gav it away."
Gav? That's what I hear. Later on, it is actually sung as 'gave'.
It that some dialect?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wham!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Michael
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Finchley
You're still (or again) trying to derive dialect information from songs?
Of course! All the time. What else?
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I assume you mean [g&v]. [&] is a better vowel for singing than [ej]. It's as
simple as that.
Then why doesn't anybody else ever do that when singing? And why does
he do it where the word is short, and NOT where it is very long?
It's funny when you think about it, but all the great hits, at the time
they were recorded, were not known to become great hits. When you hear the
original version of a song, you're in possession of much more knowledge
about it than the artists were when they were performing. You're much more
familiar with it than that voice singing it is.

'Gav' can be thus a small slip that it wasn't thought worthwhile to
normalise. While everyone else coming afterwards wasn't having no slips.

George Michael earned his place in contemporary culture, you don't have to
talk of him as if he were a stranger.
Ruud Harmsen
2017-12-19 10:16:46 UTC
Permalink
Mon, 18 Dec 2017 18:32:44 -0000 (UTC): António Marques
Post by António Marques
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Mon, 18 Dec 2017 08:00:31 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ruud Harmsen
http://youtu.be/E8gmARGvPlI
"Last Christmas, I gav you my heart.
But the very next day, you gav it away."
Gav? That's what I hear. Later on, it is actually sung as 'gave'.
It that some dialect?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wham!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Michael
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Finchley
You're still (or again) trying to derive dialect information from songs?
Of course! All the time. What else?
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I assume you mean [g&v]. [&] is a better vowel for singing than [ej]. It's as
simple as that.
Then why doesn't anybody else ever do that when singing? And why does
he do it where the word is short, and NOT where it is very long?
It's funny when you think about it, but all the great hits, at the time
they were recorded, were not known to become great hits. When you hear the
original version of a song, you're in possession of much more knowledge
about it than the artists were when they were performing. You're much more
familiar with it than that voice singing it is.
'Gav' can be thus a small slip that it wasn't thought worthwhile to
normalise. While everyone else coming afterwards wasn't having no slips.
It cannot be a slip because he does it at least six times, in slightly
different ways. And twice the correct 'gave' in addition.
Post by António Marques
George Michael earned his place in contemporary culture, you don't have to
talk of him as if he were a stranger.
Did I?
António Marques
2017-12-19 11:03:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Mon, 18 Dec 2017 18:32:44 -0000 (UTC): António Marques
Post by António Marques
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Mon, 18 Dec 2017 08:00:31 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ruud Harmsen
http://youtu.be/E8gmARGvPlI
"Last Christmas, I gav you my heart.
But the very next day, you gav it away."
Gav? That's what I hear. Later on, it is actually sung as 'gave'.
It that some dialect?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wham!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Michael
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Finchley
You're still (or again) trying to derive dialect information from songs?
Of course! All the time. What else?
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I assume you mean [g&v]. [&] is a better vowel for singing than [ej]. It's as
simple as that.
Then why doesn't anybody else ever do that when singing? And why does
he do it where the word is short, and NOT where it is very long?
It's funny when you think about it, but all the great hits, at the time
they were recorded, were not known to become great hits. When you hear the
original version of a song, you're in possession of much more knowledge
about it than the artists were when they were performing. You're much more
familiar with it than that voice singing it is.
'Gav' can be thus a small slip that it wasn't thought worthwhile to
normalise. While everyone else coming afterwards wasn't having no slips.
It cannot be a slip because he does it at least six times, in slightly
different ways. And twice the correct 'gave' in addition.
The 'slip' was 'doing' it in the refrain - most noticeable in the first
gav, not so much in the second, and almost as much in sav. It's not
something he did anywhere else in any song I've heard. Not that I'm that
well versed in his songs.
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Post by António Marques
George Michael earned his place in contemporary culture, you don't have to
talk of him as if he were a stranger.
Did I?
'The singer was (...)' or something to that effect.
Peter T. Daniels
2017-12-18 20:06:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Mon, 18 Dec 2017 08:00:31 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ruud Harmsen
http://youtu.be/E8gmARGvPlI
"Last Christmas, I gav you my heart.
But the very next day, you gav it away."
Gav? That's what I hear. Later on, it is actually sung as 'gave'.
It that some dialect?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wham!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Michael
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Finchley
You're still (or again) trying to derive dialect information from songs?
Of course! All the time. What else?
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I assume you mean [g&v]. [&] is a better vowel for singing than [ej]. It's as
simple as that.
Then why doesn't anybody else ever do that when singing? And why does
he do it where the word is short, and NOT where it is very long?
EVERYONE does it. At least, everyone who's had a modicum of voice training.

I can't say why you happened to notice it this time and not all the time.
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Post by Peter T. Daniels
More open vowels mean less strain on the articulatory organs.
Yes, I can imagine that.
b***@ihug.co.nz
2017-12-18 21:09:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Mon, 18 Dec 2017 08:00:31 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ruud Harmsen
http://youtu.be/E8gmARGvPlI
"Last Christmas, I gav you my heart.
But the very next day, you gav it away."
Gav? That's what I hear. Later on, it is actually sung as 'gave'.
It that some dialect?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wham!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Michael
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Finchley
You're still (or again) trying to derive dialect information from songs?
Of course! All the time. What else?
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I assume you mean [g&v]. [&] is a better vowel for singing than [ej]. It's as
simple as that.
Then why doesn't anybody else ever do that when singing? And why does
he do it where the word is short, and NOT where it is very long?
EVERYONE does it. At least, everyone who's had a modicum of voice training.
I.e. perhaps 35 of the general population?

Not being among that privileged minority, I will just have to go on what
I have heard and not heard. I have never heard anyone sing "gav" for "gave",
or more generally sing TRAP instead of FACE. Nor have I been instructed
to do so at any time during my modest choral singing experience. It would
sound totally weird.

I do know that many voice teachers, choral conductors and suchlike consider
TRAP an "ugly" vowel and encourage/require singers to use something like
PALM instead. Perhaps this is what you were thinking of?

Antonio has given a much more plausible explanation. The singer is not
a native speaker of English; this was a random slip in his performance
of native-like English phonetics when he sings. (Just possibly aided
and abetted by the irrational spelling of "have"?)
b***@ihug.co.nz
2017-12-18 21:13:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Mon, 18 Dec 2017 08:00:31 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ruud Harmsen
http://youtu.be/E8gmARGvPlI
"Last Christmas, I gav you my heart.
But the very next day, you gav it away."
Gav? That's what I hear. Later on, it is actually sung as 'gave'.
It that some dialect?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wham!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Michael
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Finchley
You're still (or again) trying to derive dialect information from songs?
Of course! All the time. What else?
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I assume you mean [g&v]. [&] is a better vowel for singing than [ej]. It's as
simple as that.
Then why doesn't anybody else ever do that when singing? And why does
he do it where the word is short, and NOT where it is very long?
EVERYONE does it. At least, everyone who's had a modicum of voice training.
I.e. perhaps 35 of the general population?
No, surely more than that. Let's try 3%.
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Not being among that privileged minority, I will just have to go on what
I have heard and not heard. I have never heard anyone sing "gav" for "gave",
or more generally sing TRAP instead of FACE. Nor have I been instructed
to do so at any time during my modest choral singing experience. It would
sound totally weird.
I do know that many voice teachers, choral conductors and suchlike consider
TRAP an "ugly" vowel and encourage/require singers to use something like
PALM instead. Perhaps this is what you were thinking of?
Antonio has given a much more plausible explanation. The singer is not
a native speaker of English; this was a random slip in his performance
of native-like English phonetics when he sings. (Just possibly aided
and abetted by the irrational spelling of "have"?)
Peter T. Daniels
2017-12-19 04:08:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Mon, 18 Dec 2017 08:00:31 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ruud Harmsen
http://youtu.be/E8gmARGvPlI
"Last Christmas, I gav you my heart.
But the very next day, you gav it away."
Gav? That's what I hear. Later on, it is actually sung as 'gave'.
It that some dialect?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wham!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Michael
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Finchley
You're still (or again) trying to derive dialect information from songs?
Of course! All the time. What else?
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I assume you mean [g&v]. [&] is a better vowel for singing than [ej]. It's as
simple as that.
Then why doesn't anybody else ever do that when singing? And why does
he do it where the word is short, and NOT where it is very long?
EVERYONE does it. At least, everyone who's had a modicum of voice training.
I.e. perhaps 35 of the general population?
No, surely more than that. Let's try 3%.
What percent of commercially successful pop stars?
b***@ihug.co.nz
2017-12-19 05:39:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Mon, 18 Dec 2017 08:00:31 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ruud Harmsen
http://youtu.be/E8gmARGvPlI
"Last Christmas, I gav you my heart.
But the very next day, you gav it away."
Gav? That's what I hear. Later on, it is actually sung as 'gave'.
It that some dialect?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wham!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Michael
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Finchley
You're still (or again) trying to derive dialect information from songs?
Of course! All the time. What else?
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I assume you mean [g&v]. [&] is a better vowel for singing than [ej]. It's as
simple as that.
Then why doesn't anybody else ever do that when singing? And why does
he do it where the word is short, and NOT where it is very long?
EVERYONE does it. At least, everyone who's had a modicum of voice training.
I.e. perhaps 35 of the general population?
No, surely more than that. Let's try 3%.
What percent of commercially successful pop stars?
Who knows? GM might have had a teacher or voice coach who
told him that "gev" sounded nicer than "gave". Or maybe
it was his own idea.
Ruud Harmsen
2017-12-19 10:43:21 UTC
Permalink
Mon, 18 Dec 2017 20:08:03 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Post by Peter T. Daniels
EVERYONE does it. At least, everyone who's had a modicum of voice training.
I.e. perhaps 35 of the general population?
No, surely more than that. Let's try 3%.
What percent of commercially successful pop stars?
This

is an Hungarian record I discovered and liked very much in the 1970,
and I still like it as much. Sung by trained opera-like singers.
Because I still don't understand Hungarian, I cannot check all the
vowels (although often, the lyrics can easily be found on the web).
But at least all the titles are sung as written. No opening of close
vowel in 'sight' anywhere at all.

Example:

Éva, szívem, Éva
(it means: Eva, my heart, Eva; nice title because our first
granddaughter has that name).

Those quite high vowel é and í are not lowered at all, although one
can hear how close they are (both close, and in a different sense:
close to each other; haha), which explains some of my hearing
difficulties with "Szív küldi szívnek".

Also note the frequently occurring words "rózsa" (rose) and "rózsám"
(my rose, also my darling). That ó is also quite high, but never
lowered in these songs, even though it could, without becoming
incomprensible: a lowered ó would result in a lengthened version of
the short vowel a (half open rounded back), which is not the sound of
á (central unrounded open long) and does not otherwise occur in
Hungarian.

So PTD's theory of opening vowels for better singability does not
apply here, if anywhere.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Peter T. Daniels
2017-12-19 13:49:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Mon, 18 Dec 2017 20:08:03 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Post by Peter T. Daniels
EVERYONE does it. At least, everyone who's had a modicum of voice training.
I.e. perhaps 35 of the general population?
No, surely more than that. Let's try 3%.
What percent of commercially successful pop stars?
This
http://youtu.be/aAK0nMxH7Zo
is an Hungarian record I discovered and liked very much in the 1970,
and I still like it as much. Sung by trained opera-like singers.
Because I still don't understand Hungarian, I cannot check all the
vowels (although often, the lyrics can easily be found on the web).
But at least all the titles are sung as written. No opening of close
vowel in 'sight' anywhere at all.
http://youtu.be/prneTbLAicM
Éva, szívem, Éva
(it means: Eva, my heart, Eva; nice title because our first
granddaughter has that name).
Those quite high vowel é and í are not lowered at all, although one
close to each other; haha), which explains some of my hearing
difficulties with "Szív küldi szívnek".
Also note the frequently occurring words "rózsa" (rose) and "rózsám"
(my rose, also my darling). That ó is also quite high, but never
lowered in these songs, even though it could, without becoming
incomprensible: a lowered ó would result in a lengthened version of
the short vowel a (half open rounded back), which is not the sound of
á (central unrounded open long) and does not otherwise occur in
Hungarian.
So PTD's theory of opening vowels for better singability does not
apply here, if anywhere.
You have no idea whatsoever of the natural spoken speech of those singers.

If you don't want to go to the expense of having voice lessons yourself, you could at least
read manuals by distinguished singing-teachers.
Ruud Harmsen
2017-12-19 20:15:47 UTC
Permalink
Tue, 19 Dec 2017 05:49:24 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Those quite high vowel é and í are not lowered at all, although one
close to each other; haha), which explains some of my hearing
difficulties with "Szív küldi szívnek".
Also note the frequently occurring words "rózsa" (rose) and "rózsám"
(my rose, also my darling). That ó is also quite high, but never
lowered in these songs, even though it could, without becoming
incomprensible: a lowered ó would result in a lengthened version of
the short vowel a (half open rounded back), which is not the sound of
á (central unrounded open long) and does not otherwise occur in
Hungarian.
So PTD's theory of opening vowels for better singability does not
apply here, if anywhere.
You have no idea whatsoever of the natural spoken speech of those singers.
Of course I have. The pronunciation of Hungarian is quite well defined
and straightforward.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
If you don't want to go to the expense of having voice lessons yourself, you could at least
read manuals by distinguished singing-teachers.
Why? To read the recommendation to pronounce close vowels as open
vowels? Which in practice people don't do.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Peter T. Daniels
2017-12-19 21:39:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Tue, 19 Dec 2017 05:49:24 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Those quite high vowel é and í are not lowered at all, although one
close to each other; haha), which explains some of my hearing
difficulties with "Szív küldi szívnek".
Also note the frequently occurring words "rózsa" (rose) and "rózsám"
(my rose, also my darling). That ó is also quite high, but never
lowered in these songs, even though it could, without becoming
incomprensible: a lowered ó would result in a lengthened version of
the short vowel a (half open rounded back), which is not the sound of
á (central unrounded open long) and does not otherwise occur in
Hungarian.
So PTD's theory of opening vowels for better singability does not
apply here, if anywhere.
You have no idea whatsoever of the natural spoken speech of those singers.
Of course I have. The pronunciation of Hungarian is quite well defined
and straightforward.
It is your uninformed opinion that every speaker of a language pronounces every segment of that
language identically to every other speaker?
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Post by Peter T. Daniels
If you don't want to go to the expense of having voice lessons yourself, you could at least
read manuals by distinguished singing-teachers.
Why? To read the recommendation to pronounce close vowels as open
vowels? Which in practice people don't do.
You really don't know what you're talking about.
Ruud Harmsen
2017-12-20 06:36:52 UTC
Permalink
Tue, 19 Dec 2017 13:39:19 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Post by Peter T. Daniels
You have no idea whatsoever of the natural spoken speech of those singers.
Of course I have. The pronunciation of Hungarian is quite well defined
and straightforward.
It is your uninformed opinion that every speaker of a language pronounces every segment of that
language identically to every other speaker?
Not identically, but very similar. It seems to me especially in
Hungarian the variation is a lot less than in a lot of other
languages.

Although I did notice that ZsuZsi on Youtube has a short a that is
brighter, not as dark, as that of most other speakers, and that when
teaching numbers, she nasalises Vn at the end of a word when followed
by h in the next. A phonemenon I only ever heard ONCE on the radio, so
it seems to be infrequent, or there considered undesirable.

What is your informed information about phonetic variation in
Hungarian?
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Post by Peter T. Daniels
If you don't want to go to the expense of having voice lessons yourself, you could at least
read manuals by distinguished singing-teachers.
Why? To read the recommendation to pronounce close vowels as open
vowels? Which in practice people don't do.
You really don't know what you're talking about.
I got that idea from you, remember? At the start of the thread I
started. Do I need to quote you?
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Ruud Harmsen
2017-12-20 06:44:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Although I did notice that ZsuZsi on Youtube has a short a that is
brighter, not as dark, as that of most other speakers, and that when
teaching numbers, she nasalises Vn at the end of a word when followed
by h in the next. A phonemenon I only ever heard ONCE on the radio, so
it seems to be infrequent, or there considered undesirable.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRoQDAv2nDyCejTOuS9RbKg

Tizenhet (tiz~ehet), tizenhat. But not in tizenhárom. So only in
Vnh[short vowel]?
No, cause she does it in huszenhárom too.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Ruud Harmsen
2017-12-20 06:43:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Although I did notice that ZsuZsi on Youtube has a short a that is
brighter, not as dark, as that of most other speakers, and that when
teaching numbers, she nasalises Vn at the end of a word when followed
by h in the next. A phonemenon I only ever heard ONCE on the radio, so
it seems to be infrequent, or there considered undesirable.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRoQDAv2nDyCejTOuS9RbKg
http://youtu.be/BP2MXu7bZQg

Tizenhet (tiz~ehet), tizenhat. But not in tizenhárom. So only in
Vnh[short vowel]?
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Peter T. Daniels
2017-12-20 14:42:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Tue, 19 Dec 2017 13:39:19 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Post by Peter T. Daniels
You have no idea whatsoever of the natural spoken speech of those singers.
Of course I have. The pronunciation of Hungarian is quite well defined
and straightforward.
It is your uninformed opinion that every speaker of a language pronounces every segment of that
language identically to every other speaker?
Not identically, but very similar. It seems to me especially in
Hungarian the variation is a lot less than in a lot of other
languages.
Have you taken several thousand (at least) Hungarian-speakers into a phonetics lab and
performed rigorous double-blind tests designed to tease out such degrees of variation?
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Although I did notice that ZsuZsi on Youtube has a short a that is
brighter, not as dark, as that of most other speakers, and that when
teaching numbers, she nasalises Vn at the end of a word when followed
by h in the next. A phonemenon I only ever heard ONCE on the radio, so
it seems to be infrequent, or there considered undesirable.
What is your informed information about phonetic variation in
Hungarian?
Since I have known only one native speaker of Hungarian well, and a few others casually, and
they only spoke English with me, I have no opinion at all about phonetic variation in Hungarian.
My educated guess is that it exists to exactly the same degree as in every other human language.
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Post by Peter T. Daniels
If you don't want to go to the expense of having voice lessons yourself, you could at least
read manuals by distinguished singing-teachers.
Why? To read the recommendation to pronounce close vowels as open
vowels? Which in practice people don't do.
You really don't know what you're talking about.
I got that idea from you, remember? At the start of the thread I
started. Do I need to quote you?
You would learn many, many things from a good voice teacher about how singers produce tone.
They would not be couched in terms of phonetics.

Christian Weisgerber
2017-12-18 22:31:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Antonio has given a much more plausible explanation. The singer is not
a native speaker of English; this was a random slip in his performance
of native-like English phonetics when he sings. (Just possibly aided
and abetted by the irrational spelling of "have"?)
George Michael not a native speaker of English? Absurd.
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber ***@mips.inka.de
b***@ihug.co.nz
2017-12-19 00:19:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Antonio has given a much more plausible explanation. The singer is not
a native speaker of English; this was a random slip in his performance
of native-like English phonetics when he sings. (Just possibly aided
and abetted by the irrational spelling of "have"?)
George Michael not a native speaker of English? Absurd.
--
OK. I didn't look at the presenting video, and from the discussion
I got the impression it was a cover version by some foreigner. Listening
to it now, the vowel in both "gave"s in the first two lines sounds to
me like [E]. I have no idea what sort of accent GM spoke with, so I
couldn't say whether this was his normal version of FACE, or an affectation.
António Marques
2017-12-19 03:30:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Antonio has given a much more plausible explanation. The singer is not
a native speaker of English; this was a random slip in his performance
of native-like English phonetics when he sings. (Just possibly aided
and abetted by the irrational spelling of "have"?)
George Michael not a native speaker of English? Absurd.
--
OK. I didn't look at the presenting video, and from the discussion
I got the impression it was a cover version by some foreigner. Listening
to it now, the vowel in both "gave"s in the first two lines sounds to
me like [E]. I have no idea what sort of accent GM spoke with, so I
couldn't say whether this was his normal version of FACE, or an affectation.
He certainly doesn't use [E] in other known recordings from that period.
_Last Christmas_ itself has [ej] in at least one place, and _Wake me up_
has plain [Vi]. As do live performances of _Last Christmas_. Or 'waste' in
_Careless whisper_.

NB the refrain in _Last Christmas_ may well have been recorded only once
regardless of the number of times it appears in the song.
Peter T. Daniels
2017-12-19 04:07:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Mon, 18 Dec 2017 08:00:31 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ruud Harmsen
http://youtu.be/E8gmARGvPlI
"Last Christmas, I gav you my heart.
But the very next day, you gav it away."
Gav? That's what I hear. Later on, it is actually sung as 'gave'.
It that some dialect?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wham!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Michael
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Finchley
You're still (or again) trying to derive dialect information from songs?
Of course! All the time. What else?
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I assume you mean [g&v]. [&] is a better vowel for singing than [ej]. It's as
simple as that.
Then why doesn't anybody else ever do that when singing? And why does
he do it where the word is short, and NOT where it is very long?
EVERYONE does it. At least, everyone who's had a modicum of voice training.
I.e. perhaps 35 of the general population?
Not being among that privileged minority, I will just have to go on what
I have heard and not heard. I have never heard anyone sing "gav" for "gave",
or more generally sing TRAP instead of FACE. Nor have I been instructed
to do so at any time during my modest choral singing experience. It would
sound totally weird.
I do know that many voice teachers, choral conductors and suchlike consider
TRAP an "ugly" vowel and encourage/require singers to use something like
PALM instead. Perhaps this is what you were thinking of?
No.
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Antonio has given a much more plausible explanation. The singer is not
a native speaker of English; this was a random slip in his performance
of native-like English phonetics when he sings. (Just possibly aided
and abetted by the irrational spelling of "have"?)
George Michael isn't a native speaker of English?
b***@ihug.co.nz
2017-12-19 05:36:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Mon, 18 Dec 2017 08:00:31 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ruud Harmsen
http://youtu.be/E8gmARGvPlI
"Last Christmas, I gav you my heart.
But the very next day, you gav it away."
Gav? That's what I hear. Later on, it is actually sung as 'gave'.
It that some dialect?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wham!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Michael
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Finchley
You're still (or again) trying to derive dialect information from songs?
Of course! All the time. What else?
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I assume you mean [g&v]. [&] is a better vowel for singing than [ej]. It's as
simple as that.
Then why doesn't anybody else ever do that when singing? And why does
he do it where the word is short, and NOT where it is very long?
EVERYONE does it. At least, everyone who's had a modicum of voice training.
I.e. perhaps 35 of the general population?
Not being among that privileged minority, I will just have to go on what
I have heard and not heard. I have never heard anyone sing "gav" for "gave",
or more generally sing TRAP instead of FACE. Nor have I been instructed
to do so at any time during my modest choral singing experience. It would
sound totally weird.
I do know that many voice teachers, choral conductors and suchlike consider
TRAP an "ugly" vowel and encourage/require singers to use something like
PALM instead. Perhaps this is what you were thinking of?
No.
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Antonio has given a much more plausible explanation. The singer is not
a native speaker of English; this was a random slip in his performance
of native-like English phonetics when he sings. (Just possibly aided
and abetted by the irrational spelling of "have"?)
George Michael isn't a native speaker of English?
My confusion, explained elsewhere.
Ruud Harmsen
2017-12-19 10:31:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Antonio has given a much more plausible explanation. The singer is not
a native speaker of English;
Wham, George Micheal, of Greek descent, but born in London. Certainly
a native speaker of English.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Ruud Harmsen
2017-12-19 10:25:24 UTC
Permalink
Mon, 18 Dec 2017 12:06:54 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I assume you mean [g&v]. [&] is a better vowel for singing than [ej]. It's as
simple as that.
Then why doesn't anybody else ever do that when singing? And why does
he do it where the word is short, and NOT where it is very long?
EVERYONE does it. At least, everyone who's had a modicum of voice training.
Then why do I never hear it?
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I can't say why you happened to notice it this time and not all the time.
I don't notice it because they don't do it.

Unlike you, I don't have a tin ear and I also actually listen to other
music than just operas, like you do.

However, the few times I did listen to operas and operettas (see
http://rudhar.com/musica/oratamen.htm ) I did not detect strange
deformations of sung vowels in comparison with spoken ones.

I did recently hear a strange opening, in Hungarian on Dankó Rádió,
where a slogan or a program title is "Szív küldi szívnek", but it took
me a long time to find that, because I heard (and still hear now that
I know): szév göl de szévnek. (of széfgöl etc., with assimilation. In
fact, the assimilation goes the other, he does actually say
"szívgüldi" instead of "küldi".

By the way, I heard and hear the ö in göl as long, but in küldi it is
supposed to be short.

http://myonlineradio.hu/danko-radio
Peter T. Daniels
2017-12-19 13:45:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Mon, 18 Dec 2017 12:06:54 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I assume you mean [g&v]. [&] is a better vowel for singing than [ej]. It's as
simple as that.
Then why doesn't anybody else ever do that when singing? And why does
he do it where the word is short, and NOT where it is very long?
EVERYONE does it. At least, everyone who's had a modicum of voice training.
Then why do I never hear it?
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I can't say why you happened to notice it this time and not all the time.
I don't notice it because they don't do it.
Unlike you, I don't have a tin ear and I also actually listen to other
music than just operas, like you do.
I also listen to Lieder, choral music, and Broadway scores.
Post by Ruud Harmsen
However, the few times I did listen to operas and operettas (see
http://rudhar.com/musica/oratamen.htm ) I did not detect strange
deformations of sung vowels in comparison with spoken ones.
That's the _point_. Sung texts are distorted not only for the physical ability to produce
the sounds, but also to enhance intelligibility of the lyrics even though the rise in pitch
of the fundamental frequency can interfere with the relationships of the formants that make
the vowels distinct.
Post by Ruud Harmsen
I did recently hear a strange opening, in Hungarian on Dankó Rádió,
where a slogan or a program title is "Szív küldi szívnek", but it took
me a long time to find that, because I heard (and still hear now that
I know): szév göl de szévnek. (of széfgöl etc., with assimilation. In
fact, the assimilation goes the other, he does actually say
"szívgüldi" instead of "küldi".
That suggests that you are less familiar with Hungarian than with other languages, so your
brain didn't automatically make the adjustments that turn sound waves into intelligible speech
_at the phonemic level_. Surely you can see that phonetically all the vowels were lowered,
but phonemically the Hungarian-speaking audience would have noticed nothing unusual about it at all.
Post by Ruud Harmsen
By the way, I heard and hear the ö in göl as long, but in küldi it is
supposed to be short.
If you search the phonetics literature, you will probably find studies of the acoustics of vowel
length in Hungarian as compared with the phonemics of vowel length in Hungarian. When I was
looking into moras in Japanese, it didn't take me long to find several articles on vowel
length, consonant length, and "voiceless vowels" in Japanese, in phonetics journals.
Post by Ruud Harmsen
http://myonlineradio.hu/danko-radio
Ruud Harmsen
2017-12-19 20:22:59 UTC
Permalink
Tue, 19 Dec 2017 05:45:25 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ruud Harmsen
I did recently hear a strange opening, in Hungarian on Dankó Rádió,
where a slogan or a program title is "Szív küldi szívnek", but it took
me a long time to find that, because I heard (and still hear now that
I know): szév göl de szévnek. (of széfgöl etc., with assimilation. In
fact, the assimilation goes the other, he does actually say
"szívgüldi" instead of "küldi".
That suggests that you are less familiar with Hungarian than with other languages, so your
brain didn't automatically make the adjustments that turn sound waves into intelligible speech
_at the phonemic level_. Surely you can see that phonetically all the vowels were lowered,
but phonemically the Hungarian-speaking audience would have noticed nothing unusual about it at all.
True. I understand almost nothing of the language.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ruud Harmsen
By the way, I heard and hear the ö in göl as long, but in küldi it is
supposed to be short.
If you search the phonetics literature, you will probably find studies of the acoustics of vowel
length in Hungarian as compared with the phonemics of vowel length in Hungarian. When I was
looking into moras in Japanese, it didn't take me long to find several articles on vowel
length, consonant length, and "voiceless vowels" in Japanese, in phonetics journals.
In Hungarian they largely pronounce everything as written.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ruud Harmsen
http://myonlineradio.hu/danko-radio
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Ruud Harmsen
2017-12-18 17:59:37 UTC
Permalink
Mon, 18 Dec 2017 08:00:31 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I assume you mean [g&v]. [&] is a better vowel for singing than [ej]. It's as
simple as that. More open vowels mean less strain on the articulatory organs.
If that explains it, why doesn't he also sing, e.g. Chrasmas, gav ya,
naxt dah, etc.?
Ruud Harmsen
2017-12-18 17:55:36 UTC
Permalink
Mon, 18 Dec 2017 08:00:31 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Ruud Harmsen
http://youtu.be/E8gmARGvPlI
"Last Christmas, I gav you my heart.
But the very next day, you gav it away."
Gav? That's what I hear. Later on, it is actually sung as 'gave'.
It that some dialect?
Singer was of Greek descent, born in London.
Ruud Harmsen
2017-12-18 18:01:57 UTC
Permalink
Mon, 18 Dec 2017 08:00:31 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I assume you mean [g&v]. [&] is a better vowel for singing than [ej]. It's as
simple as that. More open vowels mean less strain on the articulatory organs.
Or maybe he actually sings "you give it away"?

Did you actually listen to the song?
http://youtu.be/E8gmARGvPlI
Christian Weisgerber
2017-12-18 18:16:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ruud Harmsen
http://youtu.be/E8gmARGvPlI
"Last Christmas, I gav you my heart.
But the very next day, you gav it away."
Gav? That's what I hear. Later on, it is actually sung as 'gave'.
It that some dialect?
You're not the first one to notice:

https://fredrikpetterssondotnet.wordpress.com/2010/12/26/last-christmas-i-gav-you-my-heart/

And in this Reddit thread
https://www.reddit.com/r/britishproblems/comments/3wsd9f/the_pub_im_in_has_just_looped_last_christmas_for/
somebody commented:

LAST CHRISTMAS I GAV YOU MY HEART BUT THE VERY NEXT DAY YOU GAV
IT AWAY. THIS YEAR TO SAV ME FROM TEARS, I'LL GIVE IT TO SOMEONE
SPECIAL.
I feel chavtastic writing that in the way that George Michael sings it.
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber ***@mips.inka.de
Ruud Harmsen
2017-12-19 10:49:24 UTC
Permalink
Mon, 18 Dec 2017 18:16:24 -0000 (UTC): Christian Weisgerber
Post by Christian Weisgerber
https://fredrikpetterssondotnet.wordpress.com/2010/12/26/last-christmas-i-gav-you-my-heart/
And in this Reddit thread
https://www.reddit.com/r/britishproblems/comments/3wsd9f/the_pub_im_in_has_just_looped_last_christmas_for/
LAST CHRISTMAS I GAV YOU MY HEART BUT THE VERY NEXT DAY YOU GAV
IT AWAY. THIS YEAR TO SAV ME FROM TEARS, I'LL GIVE IT TO SOMEONE
SPECIAL.
Yes, also "sav me from tears". I didn't notice that because I didn't
understand that part.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
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