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A Rosetta Stone Theory for Decoding the Voynich Manuscript
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Morten St. George
2018-09-30 16:46:24 UTC
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A Rosetta Stone Theory for Decoding the Voynich Manuscript is an essay in which I decipher the marginalia on the last page of the manuscript (f116v), demonstrating that it points to a four-line prophecy published externally in the 16th century and simultaneously to four lines of Voynich script on f104r, in an apparent source and output relationship.

http://manuscrit-de-voynich.com/index.html
Peter T. Daniels
2018-09-30 17:45:23 UTC
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Post by Morten St. George
A Rosetta Stone Theory for Decoding the Voynich Manuscript is an essay in which I decipher the marginalia on the last page of the manuscript (f116v), demonstrating that it points to a four-line prophecy published externally in the 16th century and simultaneously to four lines of Voynich script on f104r, in an apparent source and output relationship.
http://manuscrit-de-voynich.com/index.html
Yes, and?
Morten St. George
2018-09-30 20:15:28 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Morten St. George
A Rosetta Stone Theory for Decoding the Voynich Manuscript is an essay in which I decipher the marginalia on the last page of the manuscript (f116v), demonstrating that it points to a four-line prophecy published externally in the 16th century and simultaneously to four lines of Voynich script on f104r, in an apparent source and output relationship.
http://manuscrit-de-voynich.com/index.html
Yes, and?
And nothing. I merely posted that link in the event there's a would-be VMS decoder looking for something new to try.

Ideally, it would be a decoder of high status. Hundreds of people of my status are already claiming to have decoded the VMS to no avail.
Leo Anthony Sgouros
2018-09-30 21:09:10 UTC
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Post by Morten St. George
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Morten St. George
A Rosetta Stone Theory for Decoding the Voynich Manuscript is an essay in which I decipher the marginalia on the last page of the manuscript (f116v), demonstrating that it points to a four-line prophecy published externally in the 16th century and simultaneously to four lines of Voynich script on f104r, in an apparent source and output relationship.
http://manuscrit-de-voynich.com/index.html
Yes, and?
And nothing. I merely posted that link in the event there's a would-be VMS decoder looking for something new to try.
Ideally, it would be a decoder of high status. Hundreds of people of my status are already claiming to have decoded the VMS to no avail.
Out of curiosity, and I apologize in advance to the regulars, how does one attain high status in such an august body of "decoders"?
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-01 01:21:14 UTC
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Post by Morten St. George
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Morten St. George
A Rosetta Stone Theory for Decoding the Voynich Manuscript is an essay in which I decipher the marginalia on the last page of the manuscript (f116v), demonstrating that it points to a four-line prophecy published externally in the 16th century and simultaneously to four lines of Voynich script on f104r, in an apparent source and output relationship.
http://manuscrit-de-voynich.com/index.html
Yes, and?
And nothing. I merely posted that link in the event there's a would-be VMS decoder looking for something new to try.
Ideally, it would be a decoder of high status. Hundreds of people of my status are already claiming to have decoded the VMS to no avail.
My point was, what success have you had in interpreting those four lines?
Morten St. George
2018-10-01 03:56:19 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
My point was, what success have you had in interpreting those four lines?
I imagine that you are inquiring if I have determined the precise mechanism whereby the four lines of glyphs convert into the given Spanish text. My response is that I have not undertaken any decoding activity beyond what I have put into my essay, so I have no successes or failures to report.

Someone with more time and better programming skills than I have is welcome to undertake that task. The possibilities on the substitution grille are not endless. A good programmer might be able to validate or refute the theory within a matter of weeks.

In addition to providing us with a four-line Rosetta Stone, the marginalia seems to indicate that the Voynich glyphs seen in recipes do not represent letters or even sounds. They are merely symbols for use on the circles of f57v. It's only the 68 glyphs (4 sets of 17), about half of which are seen in the recipes, that represent letters of the Latin alphabet.

Once determined the Latin letter represented by each of the 68 (per the indicated procedure), place it directly above the corresponding glyph in the blank circle above the 68. Place the Voynich string from the Rosetta Stone in the blank circle below the 68. Move this string around the circle to see what matches up in conjunction with the Rosetta Stone output. Simple.
Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
2018-09-30 21:10:43 UTC
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Post by Morten St. George
A Rosetta Stone Theory for Decoding the Voynich Manuscript is an essay in which I decipher the marginalia on the last page of the manuscript (f116v), demonstrating that it points to a four-line prophecy published externally in the 16th century and simultaneously to four lines of Voynich script on f104r, in an apparent source and output relationship.
http://manuscrit-de-voynich.com/index.html
Another Voynich enthusiast. Go do something worthwhile. Learn a real language for instance.
Leo Anthony Sgouros
2018-09-30 21:13:41 UTC
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Post by Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
Post by Morten St. George
A Rosetta Stone Theory for Decoding the Voynich Manuscript is an essay in which I decipher the marginalia on the last page of the manuscript (f116v), demonstrating that it points to a four-line prophecy published externally in the 16th century and simultaneously to four lines of Voynich script on f104r, in an apparent source and output relationship.
http://manuscrit-de-voynich.com/index.html
Another Voynich enthusiast. Go do something worthwhile. Learn a real language for instance.
Worse, a Nostradamus "expert". I just googled the poster, if this is not him, apologies.
https://www.24-7pressrelease.com/press-release/441271/morten-st-george-creates-a-sky-map-to-assist-seti-astronomers
Morten St. George
2018-09-30 23:35:14 UTC
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Post by Leo Anthony Sgouros
Worse, a Nostradamus "expert". I just googled the poster, if this is not him, apologies.
https://www.24-7pressrelease.com/press-release/441271/morten-st-george-creates-a-sky-map-to-assist-seti-astronomers
You got the right person. Being an expert in Nostradamus is precisely the reason I could see that the marginalia had focused meaning while no one else could. For the rest of our cherished academia, f116v is nothing more than a page of doodles and scribbles concerning goat's liver.
dimitris tzortzakakis
2018-10-03 03:12:14 UTC
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Post by Morten St. George
A Rosetta Stone Theory for Decoding the Voynich Manuscript is an essay in which I decipher the marginalia on the last page of the manuscript (f116v), demonstrating that it points to a four-line prophecy published externally in the 16th century and simultaneously to four lines of Voynich script on f104r, in an apparent source and output relationship.
http://manuscrit-de-voynich.com/index.html
I have a much more sinister theory:could the voynich manuscript
have been written by a marooned alien?as the script is not
written in any known human language, it will be impossible to
decipher without a proper dictionary of voynichese,and a phonetic
guide.some so called star diagrams might show our galaxy and
possibly where the home star of the writer is!and the plant
drawings might show the plants in his home planet!since they
don`t directly match with our plants.and as the character
distribution might not match any human language,might that mean
we`re not alone?just my 2 cents...
--
t


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/
Morten St. George
2018-10-03 12:02:16 UTC
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Post by dimitris tzortzakakis
I have a much more sinister theory:could the voynich manuscript
have been written by a marooned alien?as the script is not
written in any known human language, it will be impossible to
decipher without a proper dictionary of voynichese,and a phonetic
guide.some so called star diagrams might show our galaxy and
possibly where the home star of the writer is!and the plant
drawings might show the plants in his home planet!since they
don`t directly match with our plants.and as the character
distribution might not match any human language,might that mean
we`re not alone?just my 2 cents...
--
You might be interested in my essay "A Brief History of Solomon's Prophecies" in which I speculate on the origins and medieval history of the Voynich Manuscript:

http://mortenstgeorge.net
Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
2018-10-10 12:15:13 UTC
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Post by Morten St. George
You might be interested in my essay
He might not. Rest assured nobody might.
Morten St. George
2018-10-11 15:04:36 UTC
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Post by Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
Post by Morten St. George
You might be interested in my essay
He might not. Rest assured nobody might.
I read that only 11% of evangelical Christians (a huge chunk of the American population) believe in evolution. In a world dominated by such massive ignorance, I was never expecting much interest in my theories but, outside the USA, the number should be slightly greater than nobody.

In particular, some people who live in the Solomon Islands might like to know why I think their islands were named after Solomon's prophecies and not after Solomon's mines as popularly believed. And some people who live in Peru might like to know my theory regarding the source of the Inca Prophecy that led to the rapid demise of the Inca Empire. And more…

http://mortenstgeorge.net
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-11 15:38:46 UTC
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Post by Morten St. George
Post by Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
Post by Morten St. George
You might be interested in my essay
He might not. Rest assured nobody might.
I read that only 11% of evangelical Christians (a huge chunk of the American population) believe in evolution. In a world dominated by such massive ignorance, I was never expecting much interest in my theories but, outside the USA, the number should be slightly greater than nobody.
89% of US evangelicals does not constitute a "world-dominating" number.
Post by Morten St. George
In particular, some people who live in the Solomon Islands might like to know why I think their islands were named after Solomon's prophecies and not after Solomon's mines as popularly believed.
What does the explorer who gave them a Western name say was the reason?
Post by Morten St. George
And some people who live in Peru might like to know my theory regarding the source of the Inca Prophecy that led to the rapid demise of the Inca Empire. And more…
Morten St. George
2018-10-12 05:07:18 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
89% of US evangelicals does not constitute a "world-dominating" number.
Sir, I did not refer to the evangelicals as having exclusive rights to ignorance but only as symptomatic of a global problem: religious extremism afflicts peoples throughout the Middle East and elsewhere around the globe. Worse of all, in some places, partisans of this ignorance have gained control of nuclear weapons. Unfortunately, people who have succumbed to religious fervor are incapable of seeing the dangers that lie ahead.

In the past, the grip of ignorance was temporarily broken by new discoveries, e.g. the discovery of America, the discovery of the planet Uranus, the discovery of fossils, et cetera. To some small degree, even my own theories, when and if any of them are proven to be factual, could prove helpful.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
What does the explorer who gave them a Western name say was the reason?
The explorer Pedro Sarmiento de Gamboa wrote:

"Y por este mismo titulo tambien puede Vuestra Majestad sin escrupulo mandar conquistar las islas del archipielago del Nombre de Jesus, vulgarmente llamadas de Salomon, aunque no lo son, de que yo di noticia y por mi persona las descubri el ano de 1567 anos."

A book called "The Discovery of the Solomon Islands," vol. I, inquires:

"Whence, then, came this name of the 'Isles of Solomon,' which seem by common consent to have been bestowed upon them? It is to be noticed that the name is not found in any of the MSS, except Sarmiento's."

Nearly twenty years after the discovery of those islands, a Portuguese prisoner told his English captors that those islands were where "Solomon fetched gold to adorn the temple of Jerusalem." But no gold or mines were ever found there, and no one who made the voyage of discovery ever gave any such explanation as to why they were called Solomon.

See my essay for more information.
Dr. HotSalt
2018-10-12 05:45:38 UTC
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Post by Morten St. George
Post by Peter T. Daniels
89% of US evangelicals does not constitute a "world-dominating" number.
Sir, I did not refer to the evangelicals as having exclusive rights to ignorance but only as symptomatic of a global problem: religious extremism
afflicts peoples throughout the Middle East and elsewhere around the globe. >Worse of all, in some places, partisans of this ignorance have gained control >of nuclear weapons. Unfortunately, people who have succumbed to religious >fervor are incapable of seeing the dangers that lie ahead.
You will notice that the largely Evangelist leaders of post-WWII America and the officially atheist leaders of the USSR mutually invented MAD rather than go to nuclear war at the first (or second or third or...) opportunity.

I am an American apatheist (I do not care whether or not deities exist). I find your... ideas... to be as much straw-grasping and unconvincing as any other attempt to decode the Voynich MS.
Post by Morten St. George
In the past, the grip of ignorance was temporarily broken by new discoveries,
e.g. the discovery of America, the discovery of the planet Uranus, the
discovery of fossils, et cetera. To some small degree, even my own theories,
when and if any of them are proven to be factual, could prove helpful.
Oh, dear. Do you place yourself among such discoverers?
Post by Morten St. George
Post by Peter T. Daniels
What does the explorer who gave them a Western name say was the reason?
Who cares what he wrote? He was second-in-command of the ships commanded by Alvaro de Mendaña de Neira who found the islands in 1568.

"In order to take credit of the discoveries for himself Mendaña threw the journals and maps made by Pedro Sarmiento de Gamboa overboard and abandoned him in Mexico. However, a trial was then held in Lima, with the result giving Sarmiento credit for the discoveries."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedro_Sarmiento_de_Gamboa#Strait_of_Magellan

http://libweb5.princeton.edu/visual_materials/maps/websites/pacific/mendana-queiros/mendana-queiros.html

Never take the word of a liar and thief, who only went on the trip to escape the Inquisition:

"In Lima he was accused by the Inquisition of possessing two magic rings and some magic ink and of following the precepts of Moses. He then joined Álvaro de Mendaña's expedition through the southern Pacific Ocean..."

Driven by a combination of gold lust and "Christian fervor", de Mendaña basically tripped over the islands because it was thought at the time that the source of the fabled gold of the Temple at Jerusalem was in that part of the world. The islands were named later by the cartographers who integrated the legends and his ships' logs into their world maps.

Interesting how their ignorance helped break the worldwide grip of ignorance about the geography of Earth, isn't it?


Dr. HotSalt
António Marques
2018-10-12 12:56:10 UTC
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Post by Dr. HotSalt
Driven by a combination of gold lust and "Christian fervor", de Mendaña
basically tripped over the islands because it was thought at the time
that the source of the fabled gold of the Temple at Jerusalem was in that
part of the world. The islands were named later by the cartographers who
integrated the legends and his ships' logs into their world maps.
Interesting how their ignorance helped break the worldwide grip of
ignorance about the geography of Earth, isn't it?
Some modern folks, who’ve had 60 centuries of knowledge thrown at them, for
some reason think they’re responsible for it and revel in imagining how
ignorant some of their contemporaries are, and most of their predecessors.
Morten St. George
2018-10-12 16:18:52 UTC
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Post by Dr. HotSalt
You will notice that the largely Evangelist leaders of post-WWII America and the officially atheist leaders of the USSR mutually invented MAD rather than go to nuclear war at the first (or second or third or...) opportunity.
Gosh. Are you really claiming that contemporary world leaders are as sane as Eisenhower and JFK?
Post by Dr. HotSalt
Oh, dear. Do you place yourself among such discoverers?
I am confident that my deciphering of the VMS marginalia will lead to a fresh decoding of the stars section and that you evangelicals will find the stars content to be quite upsetting.
Post by Dr. HotSalt
Who cares what he wrote? He was second-in-command of the ships commanded by Alvaro de Mendaña de Neira who found the islands in 1568.
It can be dangerous to draw historical conclusions based solely on what you read online. The expedition was in fact the idea of Sarmiento who procured approval and financing for it, and, much to the discontent of Sarmiento, Mendaña was placed in charge by virtue of being the nephew of the viceroy.

According to Wikipedia, your liar and cheat was "a Spanish explorer, author, historian, mathematician, astronomer, and scientist," and conflict with the Inquisition can often be taken as a sure sign of a great scholar.
Post by Dr. HotSalt
Driven by a combination of gold lust and "Christian fervor", de Mendaña basically tripped over the islands because it was thought at the time that the source of the fabled gold of the Temple at Jerusalem was in that part of the world. The islands were named later by the cartographers who integrated the legends and his ships' logs into their world maps.
By which cartographers and on what dates? Sarmiento refers to them as Solomon in a manuscript dated 1572 (actually 1571 on our calendar).
Post by Dr. HotSalt
Interesting how their ignorance helped break the worldwide grip of ignorance about the geography of Earth, isn't it?
One of my more sensational theories runs as follows: Sarmiento, out of his lifelong desire to discover a great continent in the South Pacific and unhappy being an admiral in charge of warships, faked his death in 1592 and assumed the name of the famous Spanish playwright De la Vega. Accompanied by a couple of friends, naval captains in their own right, he went to Peru where, in 1595, he joined up with a new Mendaña expedition into the South Pacific and once again was second in command. On approaching the Solomon Islands, Sarmiento broke away from Mendaña's fleet and went on to discover Australia where he and his shipmates perished, possibly wiped out by man-eating aborigines. This theory draws support from cave drawings found by a modern Australian explorer, from a book called the New Atlantis, and from one of the stars prophecies.
Dr. HotSalt
2018-10-15 01:24:02 UTC
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Post by Morten St. George
Post by Dr. HotSalt
You will notice that the largely Evangelist leaders of post-WWII
America and the officially atheist leaders of the USSR mutually
invented MAD rather than go to nuclear war at the first (or second
or third or...) opportunity.
Gosh. Are you really claiming that contemporary world leaders are
as sane as Eisenhower and JFK?
You are a master of the non sequitur in service of avoiding the point.
Post by Morten St. George
Post by Dr. HotSalt
Oh, dear. Do you place yourself among such discoverers?
I am confident that my deciphering of the VMS marginalia will lead to
a fresh decoding of the stars section and that you evangelicals
Ahhh... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

I am an apatheist. Look it up.
Post by Morten St. George
will find the stars content to be quite upsetting.
I see from another post of yours that you're a believer in Ancient
Astronauts. That's worth another belly laugh but my cheeks already hurt.
Post by Morten St. George
Post by Dr. HotSalt
Who cares what he wrote? He was second-in-command of the ships
commanded by Alvaro de Mendaña de Neira who found the islands in 1568.
Never take the word of a liar and thief, who only went on the trip
It can be dangerous to draw historical conclusions based solely on what
you read online. The expedition was in fact the idea of Sarmiento who
procured approval and financing for it, and, much to the discontent of
Sarmiento, Mendaña was placed in charge by virtue of being the nephew of
the viceroy.
Which tells us the altitude of the regard the Viceroy held him in.
Post by Morten St. George
According to Wikipedia, your liar and cheat was "a Spanish explorer,
author, historian, mathematician, astronomer, and scientist," and conflict
with the Inquisition can often be taken as a sure sign of a great scholar.
Right, he raged against the machine, so that makes him your hero.
Post by Morten St. George
Post by Dr. HotSalt
Driven by a combination of gold lust and "Christian fervor", de Mendaña
basically tripped over the islands because it was thought at the time that
the source of the fabled gold of the Temple at Jerusalem was in that part
of the world. The islands were named later by the cartographers who
integrated the legends and his ships' logs into their world maps.
By which cartographers and on what dates?
Doesn't matter, does it? What matters is that Sarmiento is not credited.
Post by Morten St. George
Sarmiento refers to them as Solomon in a manuscript dated 1572 (actually
1571 on our calendar).
A manuscript *he* dated so. Has anyone done carbon dating on it as has been done to the VMS? No? I wonder why not. Oh, no I don't. It's because he isn't taken seriously.

Also, he was one of those obsessed with finding a place they would so name. Had he been present when the Sargasso Sea was found he'd have tried to name that Solomon something-or-other.
Post by Morten St. George
Post by Dr. HotSalt
Interesting how their ignorance helped break the worldwide grip of
ignorance about the geography of Earth, isn't it?
Wait- let me get some popcorn. Okay, go ahead.
Post by Morten St. George
Sarmiento, out of his lifelong desire to discover a great continent in
the South Pacific and unhappy being an admiral in charge of warships,
faked his death in 1592 and assumed the name of the famous Spanish
playwright De la Vega.
Sarmiento didn't look anything like de la Vega- he would have needed plastic surgery. Maybe one of those neat Mission Impossible latex masks?

Also, de la Vega died in 1635. That would make Sarmiento 103 that year.
Post by Morten St. George
Accompanied by a couple of friends, naval captains
in their own right, he went to Peru where, in 1595, he joined up with a
new Mendaña expedition into the South Pacific and once again was second
in command. On approaching the Solomon Islands, Sarmiento broke away from
Mendaña's fleet and went on to discover Australia where he and his shipmates
perished, possibly wiped out by man-eating aborigines.
Except de la Vega is documented to have died in Madrid of scarlet fever.
Post by Morten St. George
This theory
Your tale does not rise to the level of theory. Not even hypothesis.
Post by Morten St. George
draws support from cave drawings found by a modern Australian explorer,
from a book called the New Atlantis, and from one of the stars prophecies.
Prophecies...

I give it a splat on the tomatometer.


Dr. HotSalt
Morten St. George
2018-10-15 02:05:44 UTC
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Post by Dr. HotSalt
I am an apatheist. Look it up.
I ignored your claims to apathy and classified you as evangelical by virtue of your attitude.

Note that I have no wish to partake in this type of negativism and will no longer respond to ad hominem attacks.

On Sarmiento, I said he assumed the name, not the identity, of the Spanish playwright.

On his discovery of Australia, Spanish maritime records and voyage chronicles say nothing that would disprove that theory.
Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
2018-10-15 06:48:17 UTC
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Post by Morten St. George
Post by Dr. HotSalt
I am an apatheist. Look it up.
I ignored your claims to apathy and classified you as evangelical by virtue of your attitude.
Are you suggesting that there are no reasons to reject paleoastronautics other than evangelical or other religious attitudes?

Let's say that paleoastronautics is rejected by a known atheist scientist (I am perfectly sure there are many). Is this rejection, in your opinion, due to:

1) the person being a cheat and secretly evangelical?
2) the person being subconsciously influenced by evangelical attitudes present in family, society or scientific community?
3) the person being biased against paleoastronautics due to prejudices found among scientists, which are not based on evangelicalism or other religious influence but which are not based on scientific methods either?
4) authentic scientific reasons?
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-10-15 07:01:49 UTC
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Post by Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
Post by Morten St. George
Post by Dr. HotSalt
I am an apatheist. Look it up.
I ignored your claims to apathy and classified you as evangelical by
virtue of your attitude.
Are you suggesting that there are no reasons to reject
paleoastronautics other than evangelical or other religious attitudes?
Let's say that paleoastronautics is rejected by a known atheist
scientist (I am perfectly sure there are many). Is this rejection, in
1) the person being a cheat and secretly evangelical?
2) the person being subconsciously influenced by evangelical attitudes
present in family, society or scientific community?
3) the person being biased against paleoastronautics due to prejudices
found among scientists, which are not based on evangelicalism or other
religious influence but which are not based on scientific methods
either?
4) authentic scientific reasons?
It seems we have a new obsessional nutter to join Franz, the hen, Daud
and Pete Olcott. (I know he's been here before, but it tended to be for
shortist visits.)
--
athel
Morten St. George
2018-10-15 12:51:54 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
It seems we have a new obsessional nutter to join Franz, the hen, Daud
and Pete Olcott. (I know he's been here before, but it tended to be for
shortist visits.)
--
I remember Franz. Is he still around? He had a theory that the VMS was written by Sir Francis Bacon, perhaps a crazy idea but at least he was on-topic.

This thread has gone hopelessly off-topic. On posting here, I was only hoping to get some constructive feedback on my VMS decoding theories, but it does not look like that is happening.

I'm sure there are forums more appropriate than this one for debating religious themes.

Also, it is too early to discuss aliens because it is not yet proven that the stars section of the VMS harbors prophecies let alone, as I theorize, alien-authored prophecies.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-15 13:09:34 UTC
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Post by Morten St. George
I'm sure there are forums more appropriate than this one for debating religious themes.
There are forums more appropriate than this one for discussing the VMS.
Morten St. George
2018-10-15 18:05:52 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
There are forums more appropriate than this one for discussing the VMS.
I disagree. There are many aspects of the VMS that should concern scholars with an interest in the science of language. Last time I was here, we even discussed things like whether or not it was possible to find chalk (needed to make parchment) in the rainforest.

This time, I've come here looking for a serious evaluation of my analysis of the VMS marginalia, with view to attracting the attention of a cryptologist having the time and programming skills to follow up on my decoding theory.

People who wish to claim that they found a Voynich plant in their backyard can visit Voynich Ninja and similar forums.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-15 18:52:28 UTC
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Post by Morten St. George
Post by Peter T. Daniels
There are forums more appropriate than this one for discussing the VMS.
I disagree.
Then found one.
Post by Morten St. George
There are many aspects of the VMS that should concern scholars with an interest in the science of language. Last time I was here, we even discussed things like whether or not it was possible to find chalk (needed to make parchment) in the rainforest.
How is that a linguistic topic?
Post by Morten St. George
This time, I've come here looking for a serious evaluation of my analysis of the VMS marginalia, with view to attracting the attention of a cryptologist having the time and programming skills to follow up on my decoding theory.
Then go among cryptologists!
Post by Morten St. George
People who wish to claim that they found a Voynich plant in their backyard can visit Voynich Ninja and similar forums.
Also not a linguistic topic.
Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
2018-10-15 19:04:02 UTC
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Post by Morten St. George
Post by Peter T. Daniels
There are forums more appropriate than this one for discussing the VMS.
I disagree. There are many aspects of the VMS that should concern scholars with an interest in the science of language.
Who are you to tell us what should concern us?
António Marques
2018-10-15 16:01:45 UTC
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Post by Morten St. George
I'm sure there are forums more appropriate than this one for debating religious themes.
And you are 100% correct.
Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
2018-10-16 13:15:43 UTC
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Post by Morten St. George
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
It seems we have a new obsessional nutter to join Franz, the hen, Daud
and Pete Olcott. (I know he's been here before, but it tended to be for
shortist visits.)
--
I remember Franz. Is he still around? He had a theory that the VMS was written by Sir Francis Bacon, perhaps a crazy idea but at least he was on-topic.
You seem to think that discussing Voynich is the only way for this group to stay on topic.
Franz Gnaedinger
2018-10-17 07:49:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Morten St. George
I remember Franz. Is he still around?
Yes, I am still around. Wished to keep out of this thread, but had a nagging
feeling that some guys will allude to me in order to stir up things in the
usual way. Recently we had a long thread on the Voynich, started by a reader
who found another solution of the ms online. I quoted my transliteration,
and he run it through Google translate - and it was amazing how much sense
it made, the language recognized mainly as Hawaian with Finnish and Suaheli.
We then tried other transliterations, but Google translate could not make
any sense of them. We began experimenting. Was a lot of fun. By the way,
did you consider that the vellum of the Voynich might be made from leather
of moon calves? and the ms written by the man in the moon? Newton, the great
Newton, believed in astrology. How come? The physics of his time allowed
no effect over a distance, only astrology did. And my hope is that some
people with off off off academic ideas may find something truly worthwhile
starting from another vantage point. My advice to you: care for a readable
transliteration.
Morten St. George
2018-10-17 13:09:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Yes, I am still around. Wished to keep out of this thread, but had a nagging
feeling that some guys will allude to me in order to stir up things in the
usual way. Recently we had a long thread on the Voynich, started by a reader
who found another solution of the ms online. I quoted my transliteration,
and he run it through Google translate - and it was amazing how much sense
it made, the language recognized mainly as Hawaian with Finnish and Suaheli.
Nice to hear from you, Franz. I posted here last week looking for feedback on my theory that the author of the Voynich MS marginalia made masterful use of language to secretly communicate instructions on how to decode the manuscript. But so far, I have gotten no indications that anyone has even looked at my essay. Instead, everyone went absolutely nuts, posting on all types of topics that have nothing to do with the Voynich MS.

I think the botany and herbal sections of the VMS could reflect one of the native American languages spoken in Mexico during the late Middle Ages. It might be only the stars section that is written in code, with each line between red-dotted stars saying exactly the same thing, but each line in different language: Hebrew, Arabic, Greek, Latin, Spanish and others.

It's doubtful that any type of transliteration could function for the stars. The glyphs seen there represent no more that half the letters of the Latin alphabet. It's necessary to use the wheels on page 57v to substitute some of those glyphs for other glyphs. The marginalia tells us how to assign Latin letters to the glyphs.
Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
2018-10-17 23:50:35 UTC
Reply
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Post by Morten St. George
Instead, everyone went absolutely nuts, posting on all types of topics that have nothing to do with the Voynich MS.
"Everyone" didn't "go absolutely nuts", and our objections to your work were based on scientific method and philosophy of science.

You actually admitted readily, yourself, that your scholarly work is based on the paleoastronautics hypothesis. It is commendable that you admitted it so readily. This led to attempts to explain to you, what kind of evidence is needed before paleoastronautics can be taken seriously by scholars. In my opinion, this is exceptionally generous towards you, because 99.999 % of serious scholars would call you a lunatic or a crank for the very reason of mentioning paleoastronautics. Had you never mentioned paleoastronautics yourself, we would probably be discussing Voynich manuscript instead.

You have the same problem as Franz, being unable to understand the way how science works. And when people try - very patiently - to explain scientific method to you, you only scoff and frown, without trying to learn anything from what is explained.
Franz Gnaedinger
2018-10-18 08:44:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Morten St. George
Nice to hear from you, Franz. I posted here last week looking for feedback on my theory that the author of the Voynich MS marginalia made masterful use of language to secretly communicate instructions on how to decode the manuscript. But so far, I have gotten no indications that anyone has even looked at my essay. Instead, everyone went absolutely nuts, posting on all types of topics that have nothing to do with the Voynich MS.
I think the botany and herbal sections of the VMS could reflect one of the native American languages spoken in Mexico during the late Middle Ages. It might be only the stars section that is written in code, with each line between red-dotted stars saying exactly the same thing, but each line in different language: Hebrew, Arabic, Greek, Latin, Spanish and others.
It's doubtful that any type of transliteration could function for the stars. The glyphs seen there represent no more that half the letters of the Latin alphabet. It's necessary to use the wheels on page 57v to substitute some of those glyphs for other glyphs. The marginalia tells us how to assign Latin letters to the glyphs.
The scientific way is to establish one insight and then proceed to the next
one. Hundred claims piled on each other don't yield a stable theory. So
what is the best insight you can offer? Present it here, and defend it,
but notice well, just one (1) single (single) insight. Proceeding like this
is the scientific method, whereas Rautatieasemakirjakauppanupetterihöglund
of the Slavic alias believes the scientific method consists in worshipping
a holy textbook and never go beyond.
Ruud Harmsen
2018-10-18 09:19:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Thu, 18 Oct 2018 01:44:50 -0700 (PDT): Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Morten St. George
Nice to hear from you, Franz. I posted here last week looking for feedback on my theory that the author of the Voynich MS marginalia made masterful use of language to secretly communicate instructions on how to decode the manuscript. But so far, I have gotten no indications that anyone has even looked at my essay. Instead, everyone went absolutely nuts, posting on all types of topics that have nothing to do with the Voynich MS.
I think the botany and herbal sections of the VMS could reflect one of the native American languages spoken in Mexico during the late Middle Ages. It might be only the stars section that is written in code, with each line between red-dotted stars saying exactly the same thing, but each line in different language: Hebrew, Arabic, Greek, Latin, Spanish and others.
It's doubtful that any type of transliteration could function for the stars. The glyphs seen there represent no more that half the letters of the Latin alphabet. It's necessary to use the wheels on page 57v to substitute some of those glyphs for other glyphs. The marginalia tells us how to assign Latin letters to the glyphs.
The scientific way is to establish one insight and then proceed to the next
one. Hundred claims piled on each other don't yield a stable theory. So
what is the best insight you can offer? Present it here, and defend it,
but notice well, just one (1) single (single) insight. Proceeding like this
is the scientific method, whereas Rautatieasemakirjakauppanupetterihöglund
of the Slavic alias believes the scientific method consists in worshipping
a holy textbook and never go beyond.
Strawmen.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
2018-10-18 20:00:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Thu, 18 Oct 2018 01:44:50 -0700 (PDT): Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Morten St. George
Nice to hear from you, Franz. I posted here last week looking for feedback on my theory that the author of the Voynich MS marginalia made masterful use of language to secretly communicate instructions on how to decode the manuscript. But so far, I have gotten no indications that anyone has even looked at my essay. Instead, everyone went absolutely nuts, posting on all types of topics that have nothing to do with the Voynich MS.
I think the botany and herbal sections of the VMS could reflect one of the native American languages spoken in Mexico during the late Middle Ages. It might be only the stars section that is written in code, with each line between red-dotted stars saying exactly the same thing, but each line in different language: Hebrew, Arabic, Greek, Latin, Spanish and others.
It's doubtful that any type of transliteration could function for the stars. The glyphs seen there represent no more that half the letters of the Latin alphabet. It's necessary to use the wheels on page 57v to substitute some of those glyphs for other glyphs. The marginalia tells us how to assign Latin letters to the glyphs.
The scientific way is to establish one insight and then proceed to the next
one. Hundred claims piled on each other don't yield a stable theory. So
what is the best insight you can offer? Present it here, and defend it,
but notice well, just one (1) single (single) insight. Proceeding like this
is the scientific method, whereas Rautatieasemakirjakauppanupetterihöglund
of the Slavic alias believes the scientific method consists in worshipping
a holy textbook and never go beyond.
Strawmen.
Not strawmen. He is intentionally and quite cleverly irritating me. I said I have learnt my Irish in a very non-textbookish way, and he seems to think I am proud of it, and thus he is always repeating that shit about me being somehow a slave of the textbook.
Franz Gnaedinger
2018-10-17 07:39:18 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
It seems we have a new obsessional nutter to join Franz, the hen, Daud
and Pete Olcott. (I know he's been here before, but it tended to be for
shortist visits.)
Now that's too much. You never go for one of my test cases, for example
my triple test case regarding the name of Zeus (allegedly the only name
in the Greek pantheon that poses no problem) and the Indo-European homeland
(placed anywhere between the North and South Poles) and words for the horse
(IE animal par excellence). You guys can't cope with kooks and hyperkooks
because you are the same on the other side of the academic fence, unable
to focus, deliberately ignoring scientific literature.
Dr. HotSalt
2018-10-17 07:46:44 UTC
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Post by Morten St. George
Post by Dr. HotSalt
I am an apatheist. Look it up.
I ignored your claims to apathy and classified you as evangelical by
virtue of your attitude.
Apatheism is refusing to care whether or not deities exist.

My "attitude" is that you are full of little green beans, as my grandmother used to say.

You're going to have to get used to what you are pleased to define as negativity what with the Ancient Astronauts and "prophecies" in your "theory".


Dr. HotSalt
Franz Gnaedinger
2018-10-17 07:55:03 UTC
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Post by Dr. HotSalt
Apatheism is refusing to care whether or not deities exist.
My "attitude" is that you are full of little green beans, as my grandmother used to say.
You're going to have to get used to what you are pleased to define as negativity what with the Ancient Astronauts and "prophecies" in your "theory".
But you believe in genes, I hope? Genes are our inner enablers, and deities
are projections of our inner enablers, able enablers, which is an insight
of Magdalenian, DhAG meaning able, good in the sense of able, the word
of the most and most varied derivatives, among them theos deus dingir and
for example Dagda, the supreme Celit god, the good god in the sense of the
able god (Barry Cunliffe), from the emphatic doubling DhAG DhAG able able,
so that we can say religion, from the biological vantage point, is what
Richard Dawkins calls an extended phenotype.
Dr. HotSalt
2018-10-18 23:48:48 UTC
Reply
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Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Dr. HotSalt
Apatheism is refusing to care whether or not deities exist.
My "attitude" is that you are full of little green beans, as
my grandmother used to say.
You're going to have to get used to what you are pleased to
define as negativity what with the Ancient Astronauts and
"prophecies" in your "theory".
But you believe in genes, I hope?
I don't have to believe in genes. We have physical evidence of them
and (some of) what they do.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Genes are our inner enablers, and deities
are projections of our inner enablers, able enablers, which is an insight
of Magdalenian, DhAG meaning able, good in the sense of able, the word
of the most and most varied derivatives, among them theos deus dingir and
for example Dagda, the supreme Celit god, the good god in the sense of the
able god (Barry Cunliffe), from the emphatic doubling DhAG DhAG able able,
so that we can say religion, from the biological vantage point, is what
Richard Dawkins calls an extended phenotype.
Oh, dear.

*Some* deities in *some* religions are projections of human emotional
and cognitive archetypes (rarely phenotypes).

Those archetypes are only peripherally attributable to genetically-determined cognitive and emotional predispositions which we are pleased to cobble together into archetypes.

Dawkins' work is infested by the "intelligent design"/Gaia Hypothesis belief that organisms interact through some overarching design.

The hairworms that cause crickets to drown themselve do so by manipulating neurotransmitters in the cricket.

They dont do so because they're designed that way, they do that because they emit chemicals which can cause that interference. The fact that it causes behavior in crickets is coincidental and allows them to survive.

Other parasites do not cause that behavior so the crickets don't contribute to their survival.

Toxoplamsosis parasites can only reproduce in cats. They can also infect other mammals, and the chemicals they emit can cause behavioral changes in some mammals (like rodents and humans) but they can't reproduce in them.

This is still coincidence. They are also found in other mammals which are not affected by their chemical emissions.

Survival is a matter of chance in a given environment for almost every living thing, except humans. For all others either anatomy and behaviors work in the environment, or they don't- they adapt (through repeated mutation) or go extinct.

We seem to be the only species capable of adapting our environment to suit us or by adapting our behaviors, rather than us having to adapt our actual phenotype to the environment.

No deities, and no changes in our genes, required.


Dr. HotSalt
Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
2018-10-12 11:19:37 UTC
Reply
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Post by Morten St. George
Post by Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
Post by Morten St. George
You might be interested in my essay
He might not. Rest assured nobody might.
I read that only 11% of evangelical Christians (a huge chunk of the American population) believe in evolution. In a world dominated by such massive ignorance, I was never expecting much interest in my theories but, outside the USA, the number should be slightly greater than nobody.
If your theories are of any importance, you can publish them in scholarly journals, which are not dominated by evangelical Christians. Noting that people can get even relatively stupid crap published in scholarly journals, the fact that nobody wants to publish your article pretty much settles the question of whether your theories are worthwhile at all. For Chrissake, even I get published sometimes.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-12 13:48:24 UTC
Reply
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Post by Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
Post by Morten St. George
Post by Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
Post by Morten St. George
You might be interested in my essay
He might not. Rest assured nobody might.
I read that only 11% of evangelical Christians (a huge chunk of the American population) believe in evolution. In a world dominated by such massive ignorance, I was never expecting much interest in my theories but, outside the USA, the number should be slightly greater than nobody.
If your theories are of any importance, you can publish them in scholarly journals, which are not dominated by evangelical Christians. Noting that people can get even relatively stupid crap published in scholarly journals, the fact that nobody wants to publish your article pretty much settles the question of whether your theories are worthwhile at all. For Chrissake, even I get published sometimes.
Yabbut what you publish is probably at least somewhat interesting.
Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
2018-10-12 20:47:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
Post by Morten St. George
Post by Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
Post by Morten St. George
You might be interested in my essay
He might not. Rest assured nobody might.
I read that only 11% of evangelical Christians (a huge chunk of the American population) believe in evolution. In a world dominated by such massive ignorance, I was never expecting much interest in my theories but, outside the USA, the number should be slightly greater than nobody.
If your theories are of any importance, you can publish them in scholarly journals, which are not dominated by evangelical Christians. Noting that people can get even relatively stupid crap published in scholarly journals, the fact that nobody wants to publish your article pretty much settles the question of whether your theories are worthwhile at all. For Chrissake, even I get published sometimes.
Yabbut what you publish is probably at least somewhat interesting.
I thought your official policy was that publishing stuff in Finland in the Swedish language about modern literature in Russian was not interesting at all.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-12 21:13:15 UTC
Reply
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Post by Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
Post by Morten St. George
Post by Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
Post by Morten St. George
You might be interested in my essay
He might not. Rest assured nobody might.
I read that only 11% of evangelical Christians (a huge chunk of the American population) believe in evolution. In a world dominated by such massive ignorance, I was never expecting much interest in my theories but, outside the USA, the number should be slightly greater than nobody.
If your theories are of any importance, you can publish them in scholarly journals, which are not dominated by evangelical Christians. Noting that people can get even relatively stupid crap published in scholarly journals, the fact that nobody wants to publish your article pretty much settles the question of whether your theories are worthwhile at all. For Chrissake, even I get published sometimes.
Yabbut what you publish is probably at least somewhat interesting.
I thought your official policy was that publishing stuff in Finland in the Swedish language about modern literature in Russian was not interesting at all.
I doubt that I suggested anything so specific. It wouldn't interest _me_,
but probably Swedes (or Finns) interested in modern Russian literature
might find something of value, or at least something to scoff at, in it.

Also, consider what you compared yourself with.
Franz Gnaedinger
2018-10-17 07:30:42 UTC
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Post by Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
I thought your official policy was that publishing stuff in Finland in the Swedish language about modern literature in Russian was not interesting at all.
Is the Rautatieasemakirjakauppanupetterihöglund perhapsly confounding me (again)
with Morten St. George? I am not him, and recommend to this one to come up first
with a readable transliteration of the Voynich.
Morten St. George
2018-10-13 09:40:34 UTC
Reply
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Post by Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
If your theories are of any importance, you can publish them in scholarly journals, which are not dominated by evangelical Christians. Noting that people can get even relatively stupid crap published in scholarly journals, the fact that nobody wants to publish your article pretty much settles the question of whether your theories are worthwhile at all. For Chrissake, even I get published sometimes.
Unfortunately for me, at the root of my theories stand unavoidable hints of alien intervention in human history, which is a taboo topic in all countries ruled by Bible-based religions, not just by the evangelical sect. I'm quite happy having my theories published online where they are accessible to people in places like China and Japan, that is, in places where there would still be some openness to new ideas.
Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
2018-10-13 20:23:37 UTC
Reply
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Post by Morten St. George
Post by Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
If your theories are of any importance, you can publish them in scholarly journals, which are not dominated by evangelical Christians. Noting that people can get even relatively stupid crap published in scholarly journals, the fact that nobody wants to publish your article pretty much settles the question of whether your theories are worthwhile at all. For Chrissake, even I get published sometimes.
Unfortunately for me, at the root of my theories stand unavoidable hints of alien intervention in human history, which is a taboo topic in all countries ruled by Bible-based religions, not just by the evangelical sect.
And you are suggesting that scholarly journals are ruled by some sort of Bible-based religions?
Morten St. George
2018-10-13 23:09:12 UTC
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Post by Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
And you are suggesting that scholarly journals are ruled by some sort of Bible-based religions?
Scholarly journals, even if their editors are atheists, are not immune to the scorn that would be unleashed upon them by religious fanatics if they dare to publish something that would challenge traditional beliefs, and hence they do not do so.

Some months ago I tried to promote my theories in a forum of great scholars, supposedly encompassing many of the world's leading experts on the Voynich Manuscript (VMS). This here is a sample of the response I got to my presentation of evidence that the VMS was compiled in the Americas:

"Hello owners of the Voynich Ninja forum!

Please ban this nonsense. You do a great disservice to Voynich research by hosting it."

And later:

"The fact that this thread is still open after 16 pages is an absolutely shameful indictment of this forum's moderation."

I guess I was lucky that I didn't even get the chance to promote my theory that the VMS was the instrument of survival of writings from the Dark Side!
Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
2018-10-13 23:29:24 UTC
Reply
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Post by Morten St. George
Post by Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
And you are suggesting that scholarly journals are ruled by some sort of Bible-based religions?
Scholarly journals, even if their editors are atheists, are not immune to the scorn that would be unleashed upon them by religious fanatics if they dare to publish something that would challenge traditional beliefs, and hence they do not do so.
You know perfectly well that this is a load of hogwash. Scholarly journals are not afraid to publish, say, Darwinist or evolutionist stuff, although evolutionism is one of the betes noires of religious fanatics. Scholarly journals aren't afraid of publishing articles about early Christian manuscripts or related archeological materials which challenge the very foundations of the Christian religion.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-14 00:38:42 UTC
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Post by Morten St. George
Post by Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
And you are suggesting that scholarly journals are ruled by some sort of Bible-based religions?
Scholarly journals, even if their editors are atheists, are not immune to the scorn that would be unleashed upon them by religious fanatics if they dare to publish something that would challenge traditional beliefs, and hence they do not do so.
Looks like you've never opened a journal of theological or biblical studies.
Morten St. George
2018-10-14 02:38:53 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Looks like you've never opened a journal of theological or biblical studies.
Peter,

Do you know of any scholarly journal that has published an ancient astronaut theory in recent years? Such a theory would not run contrary to science. In fact, science postulates that we should find ourselves overwhelmed by alien visitors, and that is precisely why the Fermi Paradox is called a paradox.

My opinions and theories have changed a lot over the years. I tend to go with the latest evidence. At times certain tenets are disproved, and then new evidence gives rise to new ideas. On the VMS, I think I am now close to the truth as that den of critics, always anxious to point out flaws, has suddenly gone silent. To my surprise, their expert on medieval handwriting has apparently accepted my letter-by-letter reading of the marginalia, though, of course, there was no comment on the decoding conclusions that I draw therefrom.

My biggest gripe with contemporary scholars is that they themselves, not in danger of being beheaded for offending somebody (unless they happen to live in Saudi Arabia), are unable to imagine that someone could have had motive to write deceptively, or abstrusely, or to falsify data or dates. But this was precisely the case for the propagandists of an English secret society, recent inheritors of the VMS and its prophecies, in their war against the Counter-Reformation and its Inquisition. Thus, our scholars view the VMS marginalia as "scribbles" or "doodles" while I see in it instructions on how to decode the manuscript.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-14 03:05:37 UTC
Reply
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Post by Morten St. George
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Looks like you've never opened a journal of theological or biblical studies.
Peter,
Do you know of any scholarly journal that has published an ancient astronaut theory in recent years?
What's that got to do with the false statement that I responded to?
Morten St. George
2018-10-14 04:12:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Morten St. George
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Looks like you've never opened a journal of theological or biblical studies.
Peter,
Do you know of any scholarly journal that has published an ancient astronaut theory in recent years?
What's that got to do with the false statement that I responded to?
My original statement was not referring to "theological or biblical studies" (for which I'm sure there is wide acceptance) but to studies of another type.

Years ago I discovered that it is useless to argue religion with believers because, with all their thinking based on faith rather than reason, it is impossible to convince them of anything.

If you have anything critical to say about my VMS theories, please come forth.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-14 13:04:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Morten St. George
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Morten St. George
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Looks like you've never opened a journal of theological or biblical studies.
Peter,
Do you know of any scholarly journal that has published an ancient astronaut theory in recent years?
What's that got to do with the false statement that I responded to?
My original statement was not referring to "theological or biblical studies" (for which I'm sure there is wide acceptance) but to studies of another type.
The false statement that I responded to was "Scholarly journals, even if
their editors are atheists, are not immune to the scorn that would be
unleashed upon them by religious fanatics if they dare to publish
something that would challenge traditional beliefs, and hence they do not
do so." As I said, no one who has ever looked inside the covers of a
journal of biblical or theological studies could ever make such a statement. (Yes, those are scholarly journals.)
Post by Morten St. George
Years ago I discovered that it is useless to argue religion with
believers because, with all their thinking based on faith rather than
reason, it is impossible to convince them of anything.
If you have anything critical to say about my VMS theories, please come forth.
I don't have the slightest interest in your or anyone else's VMS theories
(nor do I know why such theories are mentioned in this newsgroup from
time to time).
Morten St. George
2018-10-14 15:55:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The false statement that I responded to was "Scholarly journals, even if
their editors are atheists, are not immune to the scorn that would be
unleashed upon them by religious fanatics if they dare to publish
something that would challenge traditional beliefs, and hence they do not
do so." As I said, no one who has ever looked inside the covers of a
journal of biblical or theological studies could ever make such a statement. (Yes, those are scholarly journals.)
I always strove to acquire universal knowledge and that includes an extensive study of religions, medieval Judaism in particular. But I'll concede I could have done better in phrasing that statement.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I don't have the slightest interest in your or anyone else's VMS theories
(nor do I know why such theories are mentioned in this newsgroup from
time to time).
I think the marginalia and encoded text of the VMS will turn out to be the greatest linguistic challenge anyone in sci.lang has ever encountered. These posts are in the right place.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-14 16:29:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Morten St. George
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I don't have the slightest interest in your or anyone else's VMS theories
(nor do I know why such theories are mentioned in this newsgroup from
time to time).
I think the marginalia and encoded text of the VMS will turn out to be the greatest linguistic challenge anyone in sci.lang has ever encountered. These posts are in the right place.
Maybe you simply don't know what's meant by "linguistics."
Morten St. George
2018-10-14 22:41:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Morten St. George
I think the marginalia and encoded text of the VMS will turn out to be the greatest linguistic challenge anyone in sci.lang has ever encountered. These posts are in the right place.
Maybe you simply don't know what's meant by "linguistics."
I view the VMS marginalia and glyphs as a means of communication via words, and as unique in their methods.
Ruud Harmsen
2018-10-14 06:26:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Sat, 13 Oct 2018 19:38:53 -0700 (PDT): "Morten St. George"
Post by Morten St. George
Peter,
Do you know of any scholarly journal that has published an ancient
astronaut theory in recent years? Such a theory would not run contrary
to science. In fact, science postulates that we should find ourselves
overwhelmed by alien visitors,
No, we should not. Aliens exist, but they will never make it to us.
http://rudhar.com/nature/solinuni/ia.htm
Post by Morten St. George
and that is precisely why the Fermi
Paradox is called a paradox.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Morten St. George
2018-10-14 10:16:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Sat, 13 Oct 2018 19:38:53 -0700 (PDT): "Morten St. George"
Post by Morten St. George
Do you know of any scholarly journal that has published an ancient
astronaut theory in recent years? Such a theory would not run contrary
to science. In fact, science postulates that we should find ourselves
overwhelmed by alien visitors,
No, we should not. Aliens exist, but they will never make it to us.
http://rudhar.com/nature/solinuni/ia.htm
You fail to take into consideration the fact that our Sun is a relatively new star in our galaxy. Thus, there are other stars, and planets, billions of years older than us, which is more than enough time to explore the entire galaxy even at speeds that we are currently able to attain.

Alien visitation in the past is not purely a matter of speculation. We have evidence that this was the fact the case. No, I am not referring to the Nazca Lines and the Tiwanaku drawings which, though intriguing, are not convincing. I am referring to the VMS prophecies which provide very strong evidence of time travel.

Back in the 13th century, the papal armies tortured and killed a half million people in an effort to find and destroy those prophecies. Three centuries later, when the prophecies found their way back to Europe encoded into the VMS, they led to the creation of the Rose Cross, to Shakespeare, to the Royal Society, and, really, to our modern world.

The Beinecke Library has no idea what they have in their possession.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-14 13:07:51 UTC
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Post by Morten St. George
Three centuries later, when the prophecies found their way back to Europe
encoded into the VMS,
Is this the guy who thinks it was written on tapir skin in Brazil, who had
no conception whatsoever of how parchment or leather is made? Or is that a
different crackpot whom some here encouraged?
Morten St. George
2018-10-14 16:02:02 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Is this the guy who thinks it was written on tapir skin in Brazil, who had
no conception whatsoever of how parchment or leather is made? Or is that a
different crackpot whom some here encouraged?
The tapir turned out to be, quite literally, a giant hole in the parchment, cut out in the shape of a tapir. As I was saying yesterday, my theories are in constant flux and change along with the evidence. The latest evidence points to Mexico as the place of origin of the VMS and to bison as the parchment animal. See my 'History' essay for details.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-14 16:33:27 UTC
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Post by Morten St. George
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Is this the guy who thinks it was written on tapir skin in Brazil, who had
no conception whatsoever of how parchment or leather is made? Or is that a
different crackpot whom some here encouraged?
The tapir turned out to be, quite literally, a giant hole in the parchment, cut out in the shape of a tapir. As I was saying yesterday, my theories are in constant flux and change along with the evidence. The latest evidence points to Mexico as the place of origin of the VMS and to bison as the parchment animal. See my 'History' essay for details.
We actually have a handful of documents in Mayan and Aztec scripts, and
they did not use animal products as the surface. They used varieties of
paper, perhaps made of bark, and covered with a thin whitish surface of
a clay-like material.

We also have Maya inscriptions painted on pottery, but most of the ones
that have survived are carved in stone.
Morten St. George
2018-10-14 22:33:20 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
We actually have a handful of documents in Mayan and Aztec scripts, and
they did not use animal products as the surface. They used varieties of
paper, perhaps made of bark, and covered with a thin whitish surface of
a clay-like material.
We also have Maya inscriptions painted on pottery, but most of the ones
that have survived are carved in stone.
It is my understanding that the vast bulk of Mesoamerican books were destroyed by the Spanish. I sometimes wonder if, somewhere in Central America, they also found and destroyed books written in Voynichese or on parchment, which would have been a later development. The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence in the case at hand because the destruction of their books was undertaken on a truly massive scale.
Daud Deden
2018-10-15 23:10:55 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Morten St. George
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Is this the guy who thinks it was written on tapir skin in Brazil, who had
no conception whatsoever of how parchment or leather is made? Or is that a
different crackpot whom some here encouraged?
The tapir turned out to be, quite literally, a giant hole in the parchment, cut out in the shape of a tapir. As I was saying yesterday, my theories are in constant flux and change along with the evidence. The latest evidence points to Mexico as the place of origin of the VMS and to bison as the parchment animal. See my 'History' essay for details.
We actually have a handful of documents in Mayan and Aztec scripts, and
they did not use animal products as the surface. They used varieties of
paper, perhaps made of bark, and covered with a thin whitish surface of
a clay-like material.
We also have Maya inscriptions painted on pottery, but most of the ones
that have survived are carved in stone.
No letters on copper, silver or gold?
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-16 01:42:10 UTC
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Post by Daud Deden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Morten St. George
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Is this the guy who thinks it was written on tapir skin in Brazil, who had
no conception whatsoever of how parchment or leather is made? Or is that a
different crackpot whom some here encouraged?
The tapir turned out to be, quite literally, a giant hole in the parchment, cut out in the shape of a tapir. As I was saying yesterday, my theories are in constant flux and change along with the evidence. The latest evidence points to Mexico as the place of origin of the VMS and to bison as the parchment animal. See my 'History' essay for details.
We actually have a handful of documents in Mayan and Aztec scripts, and
they did not use animal products as the surface. They used varieties of
paper, perhaps made of bark, and covered with a thin whitish surface of
a clay-like material.
We also have Maya inscriptions painted on pottery, but most of the ones
that have survived are carved in stone.
No letters on copper, silver or gold?
Who knows? The Spanish stole all the gold they could grab and melted it
down. There's a magnificent altarpiece in Spain somewhere made entirely
of American gold.
Ruud Harmsen
2018-10-14 18:55:50 UTC
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Sun, 14 Oct 2018 03:16:25 -0700 (PDT): "Morten St. George"
Post by Morten St. George
Post by Ruud Harmsen
No, we should not. Aliens exist, but they will never make it to us.
http://rudhar.com/nature/solinuni/ia.htm
You fail to take into consideration the fact that our Sun is a relatively
new star in our galaxy. Thus, there are other stars, and planets, billions
of years older than us, which is more than enough time to explore the
entire galaxy even at speeds that we are currently able to attain.
Possible. Not likely. You fail to take into consideration the fact
that civilisations rise, and also fall. Mankind, especially mankind
with technology, is extremely short-lived in the theater of life
development and earth development. 200 years is nothing.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Morten St. George
2018-10-14 23:00:17 UTC
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Post by Ruud Harmsen
Post by Morten St. George
You fail to take into consideration the fact that our Sun is a relatively
new star in our galaxy. Thus, there are other stars, and planets, billions
of years older than us, which is more than enough time to explore the
entire galaxy even at speeds that we are currently able to attain.
Possible. Not likely. You fail to take into consideration the fact
that civilisations rise, and also fall. Mankind, especially mankind
with technology, is extremely short-lived in the theater of life
development and earth development. 200 years is nothing.
I surmise that you are insinuating that aliens might not have reached us because their civilizations would have self-destructed soon after acquiring nuclear technology. This was one of Carl Sagan's biggest fears for our own fate.

My thoughts on this are that somewhere along the path of human evolution, survival became dependent on humans killing each other. For example, two humans, but only one apple on the apple tree.

But I see no need to apply this concept to the entire universe. For example, on another planet, the two humans, instead of one killing the other, could have found a way to work together to kill one mammoth.

One of the reasons I am a strong supporter of SETI efforts is that I believe alien contact is one of the few things that could help the human race to survive.
Ruud Harmsen
2018-10-15 07:06:25 UTC
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Sun, 14 Oct 2018 16:00:17 -0700 (PDT): "Morten St. George"
Post by Morten St. George
I surmise that you are insinuating that aliens might not have reached us because their civilizations would have self-destructed soon after acquiring nuclear technology. This was one of Carl Sagan's biggest fears for our own fate.
My thoughts on this are that somewhere along the path of human evolution, survival became dependent on humans killing each other. For example, two humans, but only one apple on the apple tree.
But I see no need to apply this concept to the entire universe. For example, on another planet, the two humans, instead of one killing the other, could have found a way to work together to kill one mammoth.
You understand very little about human nature.
http://rudhar.com/politics/viapace/en.htm, and of the survival of the
fittest.
Post by Morten St. George
One of the reasons I am a strong supporter of SETI efforts is that I believe alien contact is one of the few things that could help the human race to survive.
Look at history:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Americans_in_the_United_States#European_exploration_and_colonization
.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
2018-10-15 08:29:09 UTC
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Post by Morten St. George
One of the reasons I am a strong supporter of SETI efforts is that I believe alien contact is one of the few things that could help the human race to survive.
You "believe". Has it ever occurred to you that an alien entity contacting us could be malevolent? Has it ever occurred to you that presuming that alien entity to be benevolent is akin to religion?

You suggest that your theories are rejected by mainstream scholarly publications because of undue influence from organized religion. However, if you are relying on contact with benevolent aliens to come and redeem humanity, it is a philosophy very similar to the belief that a benevolent God will descend from heavens to redeem humanity. While your philosophy is not one of an organized or theologically sophisticated religion, it does look very much like a religion, and this might be the reason why scholarly journals, which are edited from an atheist (or atheist-assumption) point of view, won't print your articles.
Morten St. George
2018-10-15 17:01:26 UTC
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Post by Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
You "believe". Has it ever occurred to you that an alien entity contacting us could be malevolent? Has it ever occurred to you that presuming that alien entity to be benevolent is akin to religion?
It looks like you wish to join the ranks of our great scientists: Stephen Hawking who says we should avoid sending signals out into space because the aliens would come here to plunder our planet, and Michio Kaku who says we should avoid alien contact because we would be like Bambi fighting Godzilla. It goes to show that scientists are not immune to affliction by religious delusions.

For the wise among us, there can be no justification for projecting our own predatory nature out to the aliens: as will likely soon be our own fate, malevolent civilizations self-destruct before they ever get out of their own solar system. If any aliens were to reach our planet, they would almost certainly be the good guys.
Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
2018-10-15 19:03:15 UTC
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Post by Morten St. George
Post by Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
You "believe". Has it ever occurred to you that an alien entity contacting us could be malevolent? Has it ever occurred to you that presuming that alien entity to be benevolent is akin to religion?
It looks like you wish to join the ranks of our great scientists: Stephen Hawking who says we should avoid sending signals out into space because the aliens would come here to plunder our planet, and Michio Kaku who says we should avoid alien contact because we would be like Bambi fighting Godzilla. It goes to show that scientists are not immune to affliction by religious delusions.
I am not "wishing to join" any ranks, I am merely pointing out that your assumption of benevolent aliens is essentially a religious assumption, an attempt to give the benevolent God a more "scientific" veneer.
Post by Morten St. George
For the wise among us, there can be no justification for projecting our own predatory nature out to the aliens: as will likely soon be our own fate, malevolent civilizations self-destruct before they ever get out of their own solar system. If any aliens were to reach our planet, they would almost certainly be the good guys.
Or they would be olympically indifferent towards the goings-on of lesser breeds. And in fact, if they were the good guys and became aware of what you call our predatory nature, they might exterminate us just in case, seeing what a bunch of bad guys we are.
Dr. HotSalt
2018-10-17 07:59:14 UTC
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Post by Morten St. George
Post by Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
You "believe". Has it ever occurred to you that an alien entity
contacting us could be malevolent? Has it ever occurred to you that
presuming that alien entity to be benevolent is akin to religion?
Stephen Hawking who says we should avoid sending signals out into
space because the aliens would come here to plunder our planet,
and Michio Kaku who says we should avoid alien contact because we
would be like Bambi fighting Godzilla. It goes to show that scientists
are not immune to affliction by religious delusions.
Amazing how you connect religion to everything anyone other than you says, while ignoring the clear "save us, space brothers" religiosity of your, uh, theory.
Post by Morten St. George
For the wise among us, there can be no justification for projecting
our own predatory nature out to the aliens
You are thinking like a naive Pollyanna, certainly not like a scientist.

A planet which bears life can only have a limited amount of biomass
(on Earth, the carbon, hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen and trace elements)
which makes up living matter. Once life evolves and consumes the non-living elelements and incorporates them into biomass, the only way for any lifeform to survive is by eating another.

That's how life on Earth got from single-celled archaea to us, giraffes, and lions.

The same process must happen in *any* life-bearing environment.

Intelligent aliens, should they exist, will have at least omnivorous ancestors if they are not omnivores themselves.

It's very unlikely they'd be able to eat us (or vice versa) if for no other reason than that there are two handnesses of proteins and sugars, making four possible ways that life might construct itself from the options. Earth life chose one, and there are three other combinations.

That assumes ET life even uses what we'd recognize as proteins and sugars.

The universe is large enough that we need not be the only possible, or even the most likely, kind of life.

But all life will have to eat other living things, everywhere.


Dr. HotSalt
Franz Gnaedinger
2018-10-17 08:07:32 UTC
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Post by Dr. HotSalt
That assumes ET life even uses what we'd recognize as proteins and sugars.
The universe is large enough that we need not be the only possible, or even the most likely, kind of life.
But all life will have to eat other living things, everywhere.
What about nano-plants of the future producing the stuff we need?
Ruud Harmsen
2018-10-17 09:29:41 UTC
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Wed, 17 Oct 2018 01:07:32 -0700 (PDT): Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Dr. HotSalt
That assumes ET life even uses what we'd recognize as proteins and sugars.
The universe is large enough that we need not be the only possible, or even the most likely, kind of life.
But all life will have to eat other living things, everywhere.
What about nano-plants of the future producing the stuff we need?
Algae already exist.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Franz Gnaedinger
2018-10-18 08:18:44 UTC
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Post by Ruud Harmsen
Algae already exist.
What do algea produce that we need? They achieve photosynthesis via an
internal quantum computer, and one day we might be able to do the same
on an industrial scale. Plants produce oxygen during day, absorbing CO2,
and one day we might be able to do the same. And I imagine nano-robots
assembling proteins and other molecules we need for life, one day in
a remote future rather than a near one.
Ruud Harmsen
2018-10-18 09:17:26 UTC
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Thu, 18 Oct 2018 01:18:44 -0700 (PDT): Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Algae already exist.
What do algea produce that we need?
Biofuels, claims Exxon (also known as Esso in some countries). They
advertise with it on Twitter.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
They achieve photosynthesis via an
internal quantum computer, and one day we might be able to do the same
on an industrial scale. Plants produce oxygen during day, absorbing CO2,
and one day we might be able to do the same.
https://corporate.exxonmobil.com/en/research-and-technology/advanced-biofuels/advanced-biofuels-and-algae-research
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
And I imagine nano-robots
assembling proteins and other molecules we need for life, one day in
a remote future rather than a near one.
No.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Dr. HotSalt
2018-10-18 23:55:37 UTC
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Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Dr. HotSalt
That assumes ET life even uses what we'd recognize as proteins and sugars.
The universe is large enough that we need not be the only possible, or
even the most likely, kind of life.
But all life will have to eat other living things, everywhere.
What about nano-plants of the future producing the stuff we need?
Nano-plants? Are you thinking of nanomachines or so-called nanobots?

Nanobots building steaks and cabbages out of raw elements is beyond science fiction, well into fantasy.

For one thing it would be energetically horribly inefficient. Also, one end of the steak would begin spoiling before the other end was finished.

It's far more efficient to use what Nature has spent billions of years testing.


Dr. HotSalt
Morten St. George
2018-10-17 12:25:18 UTC
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Post by Dr. HotSalt
A planet which bears life can only have a limited amount of biomass
(on Earth, the carbon, hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen and trace elements)
which makes up living matter. Once life evolves and consumes the non-living elelements and incorporates them into biomass, the only way for any lifeform to survive is by eating another.
On Earth, most species of animals do not kill, let alone eat, other members of their species. Mankind is the exception to the rule on Earth and may be the exception to the rule for intelligent life throughout the universe.

At issue was whether or not evolving civilizations would self-destruct (make and use nuclear weapons) before achieving interstellar travel (therefore advanced intelligent life is rare in the universe and that's why our SETI astronomers are picking up no signals). But it is precisely this propensity of our species to kill each other (possibly just as rare in the universe as it is on our own planet) that leads to the theorized self-destruction. Thus, a better explanation of SETI failure is that the aliens know we are here and are avoiding contact.

Also at issue is whether or not highly-advanced technological civilizations could find ways to sustain themselves without having to go out and plunder the planets of other intelligent beings. They manufactured their own food on Star Trek, didn't they? Indeed, note that the writers of Star Trek and Star Wars had to create malevolent aliens for theatrical effect. It seems Stephen Hawking and Michio Kaku (and some people in this forum) have been watching too much TV, which accounts for their irrational fear of aliens.

Regarding our Voyager 1 probe, did we send it into interstellar space looking for places to plunder, or looking for friends? Space-traveling aliens are likely to be friendly. That's not a religious belief. It's common sense.

But the days of Voyager are long gone. Today, our civilization is much more interested in spending its money on weapons than on space exploration. I'd say self-destruction is just around the corner.
Ruud Harmsen
2018-10-17 12:39:05 UTC
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Wed, 17 Oct 2018 05:25:18 -0700 (PDT): "Morten St. George"
Post by Morten St. George
On Earth, most species of animals do not kill, let alone eat, other members of their species.
Ants, rats, lions, tigers, leopards.
Ruud Harmsen
2018-10-17 12:44:14 UTC
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Wed, 17 Oct 2018 05:25:18 -0700 (PDT): "Morten St. George"
Post by Morten St. George
Mankind is the exception to the rule on Earth and may be the exception to the rule for intelligent life throughout the universe.
Very unlikely. Contrary to the survival of the fittest.
Post by Morten St. George
At issue was whether or not evolving civilizations would self-destruct (make and use nuclear weapons) before achieving interstellar travel (therefore advanced intelligent life is rare in the universe and that's why our SETI astronomers are picking up no signals). But it is precisely this propensity of our species to kill each other (possibly just as rare in the universe as it is on our own planet) that leads to the theorized self-destruction. Thus, a better explanation of SETI failure is that the aliens know we are here and are avoiding contact.
No. The distances are too great, and the emptiness in between too
overwhelming.
Post by Morten St. George
Also at issue is whether or not highly-advanced technological civilizations could find ways to sustain themselves without having to go out and plunder the planets of other intelligent beings. They manufactured their own food on Star Trek, didn't they?
Star trek is fiction.
Post by Morten St. George
Indeed, note that the writers of Star Trek and Star Wars had to create malevolent aliens for theatrical effect. It seems Stephen Hawking and Michio Kaku (and some people in this forum) have been watching too much TV, which accounts for their irrational fear of aliens.
How old are you? Three? No life experience?
Post by Morten St. George
Regarding our Voyager 1 probe, did we send it into interstellar space looking for places to plunder, or looking for friends? Space-traveling aliens are likely to be friendly.
Unlikely.
Post by Morten St. George
That's not a religious belief. It's common sense.
No.
Post by Morten St. George
But the days of Voyager are long gone. Today, our civilization is much more interested in spending its money on weapons than on space exploration. I'd say self-destruction is just around the corner.
So far nuclear weapons have done a very good job in avoiding large
scale wars. Unfortunately, small scale wars continue.
Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
2018-10-17 13:13:25 UTC
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Post by Morten St. George
Post by Dr. HotSalt
A planet which bears life can only have a limited amount of biomass
(on Earth, the carbon, hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen and trace elements)
which makes up living matter. Once life evolves and consumes the non-living elelements and incorporates them into biomass, the only way for any lifeform to survive is by eating another.
On Earth, most species of animals do not kill, let alone eat, other members of their species.
I am not at all sure whether this is true. Cannibalism is actually fairly widespread in the animal kingdom, and the statement that it is very exceptional is a strong statement. Can you give references? I am not being cheeky, I am merely pointing out that if you knew anything about scholarly work, you'd know that you can't just say this without referring to generally accepted previous work.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-10-17 18:57:53 UTC
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Post by Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
Post by Morten St. George
Post by Dr. HotSalt
A planet which bears life can only have a limited amount of biomass
(on Earth, the carbon, hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen and trace elements)
which makes up living matter. Once life evolves and consumes the
non-living elelements and incorporates them into biomass, the only way
for any lifeform to survive is by eating another.
On Earth, most species of animals do not kill, let alone eat, other
members of their species.
I am not at all sure whether this is true. Cannibalism is actually
fairly widespread in the animal kingdom, and the statement that it is
very exceptional is a strong statement. Can you give references? I am
not being cheeky, I am merely pointing out that if you knew anything
about scholarly work, you'd know that you can't just say this without
referring to generally accepted previous work.
I suspect that it's just pious wishful thinking. I can't speak for
"most species", but just one. If you've ever collected frogspawn from a
pond you'll have noticed that at one point you have lots of tadpoles,
but after a little while you'll have only a few, or just one. What
happened to the others?

Or maybe two: when a group of male lions join a group of females they
kill all the cubs that were born before they arrive. I don't think they
eat them, though.
--
athel
Morten St. George
2018-10-17 22:49:49 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I suspect that it's just pious wishful thinking. I can't speak for
"most species", but just one. If you've ever collected frogspawn from a
pond you'll have noticed that at one point you have lots of tadpoles,
but after a little while you'll have only a few, or just one. What
happened to the others?
Or maybe two: when a group of male lions join a group of females they
kill all the cubs that were born before they arrive. I don't think they
eat them, though.
I just read the following on a science website:

'Humans are part of a small group of animals, which also includes wolves, lions and spotted hyenas, that routinely murder adults of their species. And among this small group, we stand out. As Harvard biological anthropologist Richard Wrangham told Live Science, when it comes to killing adults, "humans really are exceptional."'

BTW, what did you think of my VMS essay?
Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
2018-10-17 23:40:42 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I suspect that it's just pious wishful thinking. I can't speak for
"most species", but just one. If you've ever collected frogspawn from a
pond you'll have noticed that at one point you have lots of tadpoles,
but after a little while you'll have only a few, or just one. What
happened to the others?
Or maybe two: when a group of male lions join a group of females they
kill all the cubs that were born before they arrive. I don't think they
eat them, though.
You "just read" it "on a science website". If you want to be taken seriously as a scholar, you read it in books by specialists. And noting that this ET stuff is part of the fundament under what you perceive as your scholarly work, you need to find confirmation in such books.

Note that I am not saying your ET stuff or your ideas about human predatoriness are stupid. I am only trying to tell you what you should do to convince the editors of scholarly journals about the worthwhileness of your theories, including the ET stuff.
Ruud Harmsen
2018-10-18 07:47:14 UTC
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Post by Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
You "just read" it "on a science website". If you want to be taken seriously as a scholar, you read it in books by specialists. And noting that this ET stuff is part of the fundament under what you perceive as your scholarly work, you need to find confirmation in such books.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannibalism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intraspecific_competition
Post by Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
Note that I am not saying your ET stuff or your ideas about human predatoriness are stupid. I am only trying to tell you what you should do to convince the editors of scholarly journals about the worthwhileness of your theories, including the ET stuff.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Ruud Harmsen
2018-10-18 07:44:41 UTC
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Wed, 17 Oct 2018 15:49:49 -0700 (PDT): "Morten St. George"
Post by Morten St. George
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I suspect that it's just pious wishful thinking. I can't speak for
"most species", but just one. If you've ever collected frogspawn from a
pond you'll have noticed that at one point you have lots of tadpoles,
but after a little while you'll have only a few, or just one. What
happened to the others?
Or maybe two: when a group of male lions join a group of females they
kill all the cubs that were born before they arrive. I don't think they
eat them, though.
'Humans are part of a small group of animals, which also includes wolves, lions and spotted hyenas, that routinely murder adults of their species. And among this small group, we stand out. As Harvard biological anthropologist Richard Wrangham told Live Science, when it comes to killing adults, "humans really are exceptional."'
Interesting.
Post by Morten St. George
BTW, what did you think of my VMS essay?
Statistically unlikely. With so many assumptions, anything could be
presented as possibly plausible.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Morten St. George
2018-10-18 13:10:24 UTC
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Post by Ruud Harmsen
Post by Morten St. George
BTW, what did you think of my VMS essay?
Statistically unlikely. With so many assumptions, anything could be
presented as possibly plausible.
--
Oh, I'm sorry. I should have specified that I was referring to my Rosetta Stone essay (the title of this thread) and not to my speculative essay about the discovery of the Solomon Islands. The Rosetta Stone essay can be read here:

http://manuscrit-de-voynich.com

This essay concerns the VMS marginalia, which is a scattering of words believed to have been written (at the top of the last page of the MS) by one of the owners of MS at some point in time subsequent to the original writing of the MS.

For the moment, let's limit discussion to the first step which invokes no assumptions: I simply demonstrate that this marginalia refers to a specific Nostradamus prophecy that was published in the late 16th century. I cite the prophecy in question and I show all the ways that the marginalia points to it. Do you find a flaw in my analysis?
Ruud Harmsen
2018-10-18 13:34:32 UTC
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Thu, 18 Oct 2018 06:10:24 -0700 (PDT): "Morten St. George"
Post by Morten St. George
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Post by Morten St. George
BTW, what did you think of my VMS essay?
Statistically unlikely. With so many assumptions, anything could be
presented as possibly plausible.
--
http://manuscrit-de-voynich.com
This essay concerns the VMS marginalia, which is a scattering of words believed to have been written (at the top of the last page of the MS) by one of the owners of MS at some point in time subsequent to the original writing of the MS.
For the moment, let's limit discussion to the first step which invokes no assumptions: I simply demonstrate that this marginalia refers to a specific Nostradamus prophecy that was published in the late 16th century. I cite the prophecy in question and I show all the ways that the marginalia points to it. Do you find a flaw in my analysis?
Yes, that;s what I had read. My opinion, as I said:

Statistically unlikely. With so many assumptions, anything could be
presented as possibly plausible.

You cold set up theories like that about any randomly generated text
material. I doesn't prove anything and it isn't falsifiable.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-18 14:22:38 UTC
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Post by Morten St. George
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Post by Morten St. George
BTW, what did you think of my VMS essay?
Statistically unlikely. With so many assumptions, anything could be
presented as possibly plausible.
--
http://manuscrit-de-voynich.com
Iread the first few pages: guess piled upon unlikely guess with no
supporting argument. I then wheeled through a lot more pages, and seemed
to find more of the same, plus indications of unfamiliarity with medieval
paleography, and relying on transposing letters, snatching words from a
variety of modern languages, etc., and then I saw from the scroll box at
the right that I was only halfway through the magnum opus.

Nothing there could be convincing. Argumentation would be needed.
Post by Morten St. George
This essay concerns the VMS marginalia, which is a scattering of words believed to have been written (at the top of the last page of the MS) by one of the owners of MS at some point in time subsequent to the original writing of the MS.
For the moment, let's limit discussion to the first step which invokes no assumptions: I simply demonstrate that this marginalia refers to a specific Nostradamus prophecy that was published in the late 16th century. I cite the prophecy in question and I show all the ways that the marginalia points to it. Do you find a flaw in my analysis?
Morten St. George
2018-10-18 18:38:15 UTC
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I guess you mean the first few paragraphs because I put it all on a single HTML page to save you the trouble of having to click a NEXT PAGE button.
indications of unfamiliarity with medieval paleography,
Since the marginalia is the only thing in the VMS written in recognizable letters, it has been subjected to extensive analysis by experts in medieval paleography. I accept all of their findings on interpreting the letters. The style is Gothic cursive, popular in the 15th century, but I am claiming that someone in the late 16th century made use of it for the VMS marginalia.
and relying on transposing letters,
There is reason to believe that the VMS, ostensibly written in a left to right direction, decodes right to left.
snatching words from a variety of modern languages,
I imagine that you have identified the marginalia as pertaining to a single language, either modern or ancient, and that you are going to tell us which language it is.
Nothing there could be convincing.
My biggest gripe about deeply religious people is that they express little interest in the pursuit of knowledge. Everything is laid out for them in their faith and they fight to maintain the status quo.

Scientific progress originates in theories, and my Rosetta Stone theory predicts that sufficient information has been provided for a brilliant programmer to decode the VMS.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-18 22:59:40 UTC
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Post by Morten St. George
I guess you mean the first few paragraphs because I put it all on a single HTML page to save you the trouble of having to click a NEXT PAGE button.
Only if you use very small paper such that one paragraph takes up an
entire page.
Post by Morten St. George
indications of unfamiliarity with medieval paleography,
Since the marginalia is the only thing in the VMS written in recognizable letters, it has been subjected to extensive analysis by experts in medieval paleography. I accept all of their findings on interpreting the letters. The style is Gothic cursive, popular in the 15th century, but I am claiming that someone in the late 16th century made use of it for the VMS marginalia.
and relying on transposing letters,
There is reason to believe that the VMS, ostensibly written in a left to right direction, decodes right to left.
snatching words from a variety of modern languages,
I imagine that you have identified the marginalia as pertaining to a single language, either modern or ancient, and that you are going to tell us which language it is.
Nothing there could be convincing.
My biggest gripe about deeply religious people is that they express little interest in the pursuit of knowledge. Everything is laid out for them in their faith and they fight to maintain the status quo.
Scientific progress originates in theories, and my Rosetta Stone theory predicts that sufficient information has been provided for a brilliant programmer to decode the VMS.
It is extremely revealing that you deleted from your selective quotings
my initial observation, "guess piled upon unlikely guess with no
supporting argument," and my final observation, "Argumentation would be
needed."

Your unfamiliarity with scientific method debars you from serious attention.
Morten St. George
2018-10-19 03:07:03 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
It is extremely revealing that you deleted from your selective quotings
my initial observation, "guess piled upon unlikely guess with no
supporting argument," and my final observation, "Argumentation would be
needed."
It is not my fault that you are unable to comprehend my argumentation for the VMS as original source of some of the Nostradamus prophecies. Unfortunately, Nostradamus is a taboo topic these days, and I suspect some people have a psychological aversion to it out of fear losing their job or reputation.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Your unfamiliarity with scientific method debars you from serious attention.
I tend to be lax on citing references, but note that my theories are largely based on original research, that is, often there are no references to cite.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-19 03:15:48 UTC
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Post by Morten St. George
Post by Peter T. Daniels
It is extremely revealing that you deleted from your selective quotings
my initial observation, "guess piled upon unlikely guess with no
supporting argument," and my final observation, "Argumentation would be
needed."
It is not my fault that you are unable to comprehend my argumentation for the VMS as original source of some of the Nostradamus prophecies. Unfortunately, Nostradamus is a taboo topic these days, and I suspect some people have a psychological aversion to it out of fear losing their job or reputation.
There simply are no arguments, only assertions, in that essay.
Post by Morten St. George
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Your unfamiliarity with scientific method debars you from serious attention.
I tend to be lax on citing references, but note that my theories are largely based on original research, that is, often there are no references to cite.
I didn't ask for references. I asked for argumentation.
Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
2018-10-18 23:58:25 UTC
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Post by Morten St. George
My biggest gripe about deeply religious people is that they express little interest in the pursuit of knowledge. Everything is laid out for them in their faith and they fight to maintain the status quo.
True enough. But it remains to be seen how you differ from them. As I pointed out, your musings are rooted in paleoastronautics, which is essentially a religion, as has been demonstrated.
Post by Morten St. George
Scientific progress originates in theories, and my Rosetta Stone theory predicts that sufficient information has been provided for a brilliant programmer to decode the VMS.
You do not seem to understand the concept of theory in science and scholarly enquiry. It is different from what "theory" means in colloquial language.
Dr. HotSalt
2018-10-19 00:21:51 UTC
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Post by Morten St. George
Post by Dr. HotSalt
A planet which bears life can only have a limited amount of biomass
(on Earth, the carbon, hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen and trace elements)
which makes up living matter. Once life evolves and consumes the non-
living elements and incorporates them into biomass, the only way for
any lifeform to survive is by eating another.
On Earth, most species of animals do not kill, let alone eat, other members
of their species. Mankind is the exception to the rule on Earth and may be
the exception to the rule for intelligent life throughout the universe.
Still with the Pollyanna.

https://www.livescience.com/60431-do-animals-murder-each-other.html

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/09/human-violence-evolution-animals-nature-science/

https://www.sciencefocus.com/nature/do-animals-murder-their-own-species/

https://www.quora.com/Do-humans-attack-and-kill-their-own-species-more-than-other-species

https://www.wired.com/2015/01/animal-cannibalism/

https://www.ranker.com/list/cannibalistic-animals/cynthia-griffith

http://www.animalplanet.com/tv-shows/monster-week/tastes-like-chicken-8-animal-cannibals-that-eat-their-own-kind/

https://allthatsinteresting.com/cannibal-animals

You have no justification for assuming anything about the *social* behaviors of any extraterrestrial species.

Also, you just moved the goalposts.
Post by Morten St. George
At issue was whether or not evolving civilizations would self-destruct
That's where you want to move the goalposts, you mean.
Post by Morten St. George
(make and use nuclear weapons) before achieving interstellar travel
(therefore advanced intelligent life is rare in the universe and that's
why our SETI astronomers are picking up no signals).
Most likely nobody uses what we can easily generate and detect (radio waves) to communicate information over any great distance.
Post by Morten St. George
But it is precisely
this propensity of our species to kill each other (possibly just as rare
in the universe as it is on our own planet)
Except that it isn't rare on this planet.
Post by Morten St. George
that leads to the theorized self-destruction. Thus, a better explanation
of SETI failure is that the aliens know we are here and are avoiding contact.
Or, they ate each other before they advanced far enough to hear us, much less try to come here.

The bottom line is that they had to eat to become intelligent and still do, assuming they exist at all.

I note you didn't even try to refute that point.
Post by Morten St. George
Also at issue is whether or not highly-advanced technological civilizations
could find ways to sustain themselves without having to go out and plunder
the planets of other intelligent beings.
Please stop referring to poorly written Sci Fi plots. There is literally nothing on Earth that is not available in enormous quantities elsewhere in the Solar System in much shallower gravity wells (much cheaper energetically to extract, plus not infested with pesky nuclear-armed natives).

Those same materials should be equally easily available in any solar system with a life-bearing planet. If it was solely about resource acquisition humanity could sustain itself in this system until the Sun turns red and eats all the inner planets.
Post by Morten St. George
They manufactured their own food on Star Trek, didn't they?
No, they didn't. That is FICTION.
Post by Morten St. George
Indeed, note that the writers of Star Trek and Star Wars had to create
malevolent aliens for theatrical effect.
The alien species in Star Trek are thinly-veiled representations of various countries on Earth. I'm not surprised you missed that.

The alien species in Star Wars are perfectly human-behaving characters.
Post by Morten St. George
It seems Stephen Hawking and Michio Kaku (and some people in this forum)
have been watching too much TV, which accounts for their irrational fear
of aliens.
And what have you been reading to generate your irrational near-worship of aliens?
Post by Morten St. George
Regarding our Voyager 1 probe, did we send it into interstellar space
looking for places to plunder, or looking for friends? Space-traveling
aliens are likely to be friendly. That's not a religious belief. It's
common sense.
It's none of the above. It's a roll of the dice.
Post by Morten St. George
But the days of Voyager are long gone. Today, our civilization is much
more interested in spending its money on weapons than on space exploration.
You are amazingly ignorant...
Post by Morten St. George
I'd say self-destruction is just around the corner.
...and have the pessimism of a small mind.

You will notice that nuclear weapons were invented a little over seventy years ago.

You will also notice that despite proliferating from one country to many, they were used ONCE in those seventy-plus years.

How long do you think it takes to turn a corner.


Dr. HotSalt
Morten St. George
2018-10-19 04:27:38 UTC
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Post by Dr. HotSalt
You have no justification for assuming anything about the *social* behaviors of any extraterrestrial species.
It seems that other forums, which would have been a more appropriate place for discussing aliens, are now virtually defunct, so I will engage here.
Post by Dr. HotSalt
Most likely nobody uses what we can easily generate and detect (radio waves) to communicate information over any great distance.
I concur that SETI strategies to date have been doomed to failure, partly because search instructions and financing have come from the bad guys, like the US Air Force. Last I heard, they had plans but insufficient funding to search for laser beam flashes across the entire sky, which would certainly offer better prospects.
Post by Dr. HotSalt
Please stop referring to poorly written Sci Fi plots. There is literally nothing on Earth that is not available in enormous quantities elsewhere in the Solar System in much shallower gravity wells (much cheaper energetically to extract, plus not infested with pesky nuclear-armed natives).
Please tell that to Hawking and Kuku who are convinced that, once the aliens know we are here, they will come to plunder our gorgeous planet.
Post by Dr. HotSalt
Post by Morten St. George
They manufactured their own food on Star Trek, didn't they?
No, they didn't. That is FICTION.
Yes, they did. I distinctly recall that they could push a button and get whatever they wanted to eat at the vending machine. I'm sure our scientists are working on it and we'll be able to do the same one day.
Post by Dr. HotSalt
The alien species in Star Wars are perfectly human-behaving characters.
It never crossed my mind that the science fiction writers were personally familiar with aliens.
Post by Dr. HotSalt
And what have you been reading to generate your irrational near-worship of aliens?
On what basis are you assuming that aliens are illiterate?
Post by Dr. HotSalt
You will notice that nuclear weapons were invented a little over seventy years ago.
You will also notice that despite proliferating from one country to many, they were used ONCE in those seventy-plus years.
How long do you think it takes to turn a corner.
The problem is that a small percentage of humanity is not mentally balanced. It was therefore critically important for humankind to eliminate all nuclear weapons because it is only a matter of time before one of those nuts gets a nuclear button.

I've heard that the leader of major nuclear power recently asked his generals: Why can't we just nuke them?

If you can afford it, you might want to consider relocating to somewhere in the southern hemisphere. The Doomsday Clock is officially closer than ever to midnight.

Morten St. George

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
2018-10-17 13:09:13 UTC
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Post by Dr. HotSalt
Post by Morten St. George
Post by Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
You "believe". Has it ever occurred to you that an alien entity
contacting us could be malevolent? Has it ever occurred to you that
presuming that alien entity to be benevolent is akin to religion?
Stephen Hawking who says we should avoid sending signals out into
space because the aliens would come here to plunder our planet,
and Michio Kaku who says we should avoid alien contact because we
would be like Bambi fighting Godzilla. It goes to show that scientists
are not immune to affliction by religious delusions.
Amazing how you connect religion to everything anyone other than you says, while ignoring the clear "save us, space brothers" religiosity of your, uh, theory.
I'd say that his peculiar habit of seeing evangelical Christianity behind anyone who does not agree him is a perfect example of projection. He is probably himself coming from an evangelical Christian background.
Daud Deden
2018-10-18 02:43:03 UTC
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Post by Dr. HotSalt
Post by Morten St. George
Post by Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
You "believe". Has it ever occurred to you that an alien entity
contacting us could be malevolent? Has it ever occurred to you that
presuming that alien entity to be benevolent is akin to religion?
Stephen Hawking who says we should avoid sending signals out into
space because the aliens would come here to plunder our planet,
and Michio Kaku who says we should avoid alien contact because we
would be like Bambi fighting Godzilla. It goes to show that scientists
are not immune to affliction by religious delusions.
Amazing how you connect religion to everything anyone other than you says, while ignoring the clear "save us, space brothers" religiosity of your, uh, theory.
Post by Morten St. George
For the wise among us, there can be no justification for projecting
our own predatory nature out to the aliens
You are thinking like a naive Pollyanna, certainly not like a scientist.
A planet which bears life can only have a limited amount of biomass
(on Earth, the carbon, hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen and trace elements)
which makes up living matter. Once life evolves and consumes the non-living elelements and incorporates them into biomass, the only way for any lifeform to survive is by eating another.
That's how life on Earth got from single-celled archaea to us, giraffes, and lions.
The same process must happen in *any* life-bearing environment.
Intelligent aliens, should they exist, will have at least omnivorous ancestors if they are not omnivores themselves.
It's very unlikely they'd be able to eat us (or vice versa) if for no other reason than that there are two handnesses of proteins and sugars, making four possible ways that life might construct itself from the options. Earth life chose one, and there are three other combinations.
That assumes ET life even uses what we'd recognize as proteins and sugars.
The universe is large enough that we need not be the only possible, or even the most likely, kind of life.
But all life will have to eat other living things, everywhere.
Are sunlight, CO2, minerals and water living things in your little world?
I hope you don't limit 'living things to fauna.
Post by Dr. HotSalt
Dr. HotSalt
Morten St. George
2018-10-18 06:19:21 UTC
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Post by Daud Deden
Post by Dr. HotSalt
But all life will have to eat other living things, everywhere.
Are sunlight, CO2, minerals and water living things in your little world?
I hope you don't limit 'living things to fauna.
I tend to agree with Dr. HotSalt on the basic premise. He is merely saying that evolutionary progress necessitates having a predatory nature, which would apply throughout the universe, but I disagree with his conclusion that we should therefore fear aliens.

Look around our planet. In places where humans tend to be highly educated, civilized behavior is seen, but in places where humans are less educated, like Mexico, incidences of murder tend to be far greater. In other words, evolution eventually leads to an intellect that can overcome the predatory instincts (humans are not there yet). This would be especially true of civilizations so advanced that they attain the capacity for interstellar travel.

But all this is beside the point. The point is that my VMS essay makes no mention of aliens and I'd love to get some feedback on it.
Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
2018-10-14 16:22:36 UTC
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Post by Morten St. George
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Looks like you've never opened a journal of theological or biblical studies.
Peter,
Do you know of any scholarly journal that has published an ancient astronaut theory in recent years? Such a theory would not run contrary to science.
A theory based on paleoastronautics needs very strong and minute scientific and scholarly evidence to be taken seriously. And yes, in a sense such a theory does run contrary to science, because it introduces a new factor. Paleoastronauts are a factor that is presently not acceptable to science (I say science, not religion), and if you want to introduce them, you need to have very good scholarly arguments to do so.
Morten St. George
2018-10-14 22:19:30 UTC
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Post by Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
A theory based on paleoastronautics needs very strong and minute scientific and scholarly evidence to be taken seriously. And yes, in a sense such a theory does run contrary to science, because it introduces a new factor. Paleoastronauts are a factor that is presently not acceptable to science (I say science, not religion), and if you want to introduce them, you need to have very good scholarly arguments to do so.
In view of the likelihood that advanced aliens would have noticed, from afar, oxygen in our planet's atmosphere and subsequently come to visit, every possible sign of alien visitation, like the Nazca Lines, should be investigated.

But I agree with you: such investigations do not merit inclusion in scientific journals when mundane explanations are possible. Moreover, I'm sure advanced aliens could learn everything they wanted to know about us without having to physically present themselves to us.

But if the Astronaut geoglyph reflects a real astronaut, it could mean that the aliens would welcome future contact with us. I'd suggest searching for a star map pointing to their home planet. And that is precisely the aspect of ancient astronaut theory that merits publication: the star map.
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