Discussion:
Ben Franklin and Tofu
(too old to reply)
Dylan Sung
2005-06-17 20:25:04 UTC
Permalink
Someone on another list came up with this interesting article.


http://www.oed.com/newsletters/2005-06/tofu.html

Searching for examples of garbanzo led me to a 1770 letter from Benjamin
Franklin to the American botanist John Bartram, in which Franklin used the
word garavances, possibly a variant of garbanzos. As it happened, the letter
was about a new recipe that Franklin had acquired, for Chinese tau-fu. Both
Bartram and Franklin were vegetarians, which explains their interest.
Franklin wrote:

I send.. some Chinese Garavances, with Father Navaretta's account of the
universal use of a cheese made of them, in China… Some runnings of salt (I
suppose runnet) is put into water when the meal is in it, to turn it to
curds. I think we have Garavances with us; but I know not whether they are
same with these, which actually came from China, and are what the Tau-fu is
made of.

The earliest example of tofu currently in the OED is 1880, so this is an
antedating of more than one hundred years. The editors have not yet
considered it for publication, and further research may be necessary.

====

It seems that /tau fu/ may come from Cantonese of that pronunciation, (but
"tofu" comes via Japanese, I believe). Perhaps via trade with Macau.

Dyl.
Peter T. Daniels
2005-06-17 22:42:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dylan Sung
Someone on another list came up with this interesting article.
http://www.oed.com/newsletters/2005-06/tofu.html
Searching for examples of garbanzo led me to a 1770 letter from Benjamin
Franklin to the American botanist John Bartram, in which Franklin used the
word garavances, possibly a variant of garbanzos. As it happened, the letter
was about a new recipe that Franklin had acquired, for Chinese tau-fu. Both
Bartram and Franklin were vegetarians, which explains their interest.
I send.. some Chinese Garavances, with Father Navaretta's account of the
universal use of a cheese made of them, in China… Some runnings of salt (I
suppose runnet) is put into water when the meal is in it, to turn it to
curds. I think we have Garavances with us; but I know not whether they are
same with these, which actually came from China, and are what the Tau-fu is
made of.
The earliest example of tofu currently in the OED is 1880, so this is an
antedating of more than one hundred years. The editors have not yet
considered it for publication, and further research may be necessary.
Which editors have not considered what for publication? Can there be
some letters of Franklin that still aren't in the zillion-volume edition
of his writings? Anyway, anyone who's studied the history of the OED
knows that it's highly deficient in earlier (and later!) American
sources.
Post by Dylan Sung
====
It seems that /tau fu/ may come from Cantonese of that pronunciation, (but
"tofu" comes via Japanese, I believe). Perhaps via trade with Macau.
Dyl.
--
Peter T. Daniels ***@att.net
Dylan Sung
2005-06-18 07:08:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Dylan Sung
Someone on another list came up with this interesting article.
http://www.oed.com/newsletters/2005-06/tofu.html
Searching for examples of garbanzo led me to a 1770 letter from Benjamin
Franklin to the American botanist John Bartram, in which Franklin used the
word garavances, possibly a variant of garbanzos. As it happened, the letter
was about a new recipe that Franklin had acquired, for Chinese tau-fu. Both
Bartram and Franklin were vegetarians, which explains their interest.
I send.. some Chinese Garavances, with Father Navaretta's account of the
universal use of a cheese made of them, in China. Some runnings of salt
(I
suppose runnet) is put into water when the meal is in it, to turn it to
curds. I think we have Garavances with us; but I know not whether they are
same with these, which actually came from China, and are what the Tau-fu is
made of.
The earliest example of tofu currently in the OED is 1880, so this is an
antedating of more than one hundred years. The editors have not yet
considered it for publication, and further research may be necessary.
Which editors have not considered what for publication? Can there be
I don't know, it came from the webpage above, hence the "====" below after
which I made my comment.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
some letters of Franklin that still aren't in the zillion-volume edition
of his writings? Anyway, anyone who's studied the history of the OED
knows that it's highly deficient in earlier (and later!) American
sources.
BTW, what is "garbanzo"? Is it a type of bean? I've not heard of it
before...
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Dylan Sung
====
It seems that /tau fu/ may come from Cantonese of that pronunciation, (but
"tofu" comes via Japanese, I believe). Perhaps via trade with Macau.
Dyl.
Peter Dy
2005-06-18 09:06:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dylan Sung
BTW, what is "garbanzo"? Is it a type of bean? I've not heard of it
before...
Another word for it is "chick pea,." It's a legume. My Indian cookbook
(Julie Sahni) also gives "ceci" as an alternate name, and "kabuli channa"
and "safaid channa" as its "Indian" names.

Peter
Peter T. Daniels
2005-06-18 13:05:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Dy
Post by Dylan Sung
BTW, what is "garbanzo"? Is it a type of bean? I've not heard of it
before...
Another word for it is "chick pea,." It's a legume. My Indian cookbook
(Julie Sahni) also gives "ceci" as an alternate name, and "kabuli channa"
and "safaid channa" as its "Indian" names.
I think "garbanzo" is some sort of fancy gourmet word. They always used
to be plain ol' chick peas.
--
Peter T. Daniels ***@att.net
david
2005-06-18 15:11:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Dy
Post by Dylan Sung
BTW, what is "garbanzo"? Is it a type of bean? I've not heard of it
before...
Another word for it is "chick pea,." It's a legume. My Indian cookbook
(Julie Sahni) also gives "ceci" as an alternate name, and "kabuli channa"
and "safaid channa" as its "Indian" names.
I think "garbanzo" is some sort of fancy gourmet word. They always used
to be plain ol' chick peas.
In spanish speaking countries they are garbanzos. This word is often
used in the US but many people don't recognize it. In my grocery store
both garbanzos and chick peas are written on the packaging.
Lee Sau Dan
2005-06-18 05:53:52 UTC
Permalink
Dylan> It seems that /tau fu/ may come from Cantonese of that
Dylan> pronunciation,

Yeah. [tau22 fu22] is Cantonese. How is it pronounced in Hakka?


Dylan> but "tofu" comes via Japanese, I believe).

Yes.


Dylan> Perhaps via trade with Macau.

Why Macau? It could be Canton, too.

So, how did that "tau fu" enter English? If it's via Portugese, then
trade with Macau is likely explanation. If it entered English
directly from Cantonese, then Canton and Hongkong should have higher
chances.
--
Lee Sau Dan 李守敦 ~{@nJX6X~}

E-mail: ***@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee
Dylan Sung
2005-06-18 07:16:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lee Sau Dan
Dylan> It seems that /tau fu/ may come from Cantonese of that
Dylan> pronunciation,
Yeah. [tau22 fu22] is Cantonese. How is it pronounced in Hakka?
It comes with an aspirated initial, and a mid high vowel. /t'Eu55 fu53/. As
a rule of thumb, if the initials differ, and I get an aspirated initial, it
Post by Lee Sau Dan
Dylan> Perhaps via trade with Macau.
Why Macau? It could be Canton, too.
So, how did that "tau fu" enter English? If it's via Portugese, then
trade with Macau is likely explanation. If it entered English
directly from Cantonese, then Canton and Hongkong should have higher
chances.
I was thinking historically, early trade with Macau happened earlier, being
on the coast, rather than Guangzhou which is further inland. Moreover, Macau
has been trading since the Ming dynasty, and Hong Kong was only important
from the reign of Queen Victoria c.1840 onwards. Ben Franklin was active in
the century previous to that, so Macau is a better candidate. Were the
Cantonese really that populous in HK then? At least Macau is Cantonese
speaking... Then again, romanisations are sometimes dodgy.

Dyl.
Lee Sau Dan
2005-06-18 09:48:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lee Sau Dan
Yeah. [tau22 fu22] is Cantonese. How is it pronounced in
Hakka?
Dylan> It comes with an aspirated initial, and a mid high
Dylan> vowel. /t'Eu55 fu53/. As a rule of thumb, if the initials
Dylan> differ, and I get an aspirated initial, it leads me to
Dylan> conclude it would have been a voiced initial in MC, ****@u

I agree. Since the tone of [tau22] is a Yang2 tone, this usually
means that it was a voiced initial in MC.



Dylan> I was thinking historically, early trade with Macau
Dylan> happened earlier, being on the coast, rather than Guangzhou
Dylan> which is further inland.

Yeah. Europeans established trade with Macau more than 5 hundred
years ago. Trade with Canton was established for only 2 centuries.
Hong Kong came even later into the picture.

However, the Europeans who established Macau as a trading port were
Portugese, which is still an official language of Macau. So, I doubt
there were much trade with Englishmen directly back then.


Dylan> Moreover, Macau has been trading since the Ming dynasty,

Chuan2zhou1 used to be considered the world's biggest port -- together
with port Alexander in the West -- during the Ming dynasty (or
earlier?). The big Chinese seafarer Zheng2cheng2gong1 of the Ming
dynasty -- the one who is now suspected by some people to have
circumnavigated the globe a few decades earlier than Columbus -- also
set off from Chuan2zhou1.

I'm not sure, though, whether Chuan2zhou1 used to have trade with the
Europeans. They may be more focused on trades with South-East Asian
and South Asian countries.


Dylan> and Hong Kong was only important from the reign of Queen
Dylan> Victoria c.1840 onwards. Ben Franklin was active in the
Dylan> century previous to that, so Macau is a better
Dylan> candidate. Were the Cantonese really that populous in HK
Dylan> then? At least Macau is Cantonese speaking... Then again,
Dylan> romanisations are sometimes dodgy.

Hongkong was more Hakka-speaking back then. But how about Canton?
--
Lee Sau Dan 李守敦 ~{@nJX6X~}

E-mail: ***@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee
Peter Dy
2005-06-18 10:53:03 UTC
Permalink
"Lee Sau Dan" <***@informatik.uni-freiburg.de> wrote in message news:***@informatik.uni-freiburg.de...
[...]
Chuan2zhou1 used to be considered the world's biggest port -- together
with port Alexander in the West -- during the Ming dynasty (or
earlier?).


*Do you mean Quan2zhou1? According to Gernet, it became the biggest port in
China in the 11th century (Song dynasty).


The big Chinese seafarer Zheng2cheng2gong1 of the Ming
dynasty -- the one who is now suspected by some people to have
circumnavigated the globe a few decades earlier than Columbus -- also
set off from Chuan2zhou1.


*It's also the site of one of the earliest mosques in China, built 1009.
And it's where the Franciscan Giovanni di Monte Corovino first landed in
China in 1291, whereupon he'd soon become Archbishop of Beijing.


I'm not sure, though, whether Chuan2zhou1 used to have trade with the
Europeans. They may be more focused on trades with South-East Asian
and South Asian countries.


*There was lots of trade with Arabs, as the mosque note above suggests.
Gernet says that Muslim, Nestorian, Catholic, Manichean, and Hindu
inscriptions have been found there from the 13th century. Also, that's
where English gets the word "satin" from, since the Arabic name for Quanzhou
was apparently "Zaytun."

Not sure how how any of this fits into the discussion. It is, basically, my
home town though. :)

Peter
Lee Sau Dan
2005-06-18 11:04:54 UTC
Permalink
Peter> *Do you mean Quan2zhou1? According to Gernet, it became
Peter> the biggest port in China in the 11th century (Song
Peter> dynasty).

Yeah.


Peter> The big Chinese seafarer Zheng2cheng2gong1 of the Ming
Peter> dynasty -- the one who is now suspected by some people to
Peter> have circumnavigated the globe a few decades earlier than
Peter> Columbus -- also set off from Chuan2zhou1.

Peter> *It's also the site of one of the earliest mosques in
Peter> China, built 1009.

Yeah. I was suspecting whether there was sea-trade between China and
the Arabic world at that time. Certainly, there was already
land-trade, and some products (such as spice) came from Persia.



Peter> *There was lots of trade with Arabs, as the mosque note
Peter> above suggests. Gernet says that Muslim, Nestorian,
Peter> Catholic, Manichean, and Hindu inscriptions have been found
Peter> there from the 13th century. Also, that's where English
Peter> gets the word "satin" from, since the Arabic name for
Peter> Quanzhou was apparently "Zaytun."

Where does this Arabic name come from? What was Quanzhou called?
--
Lee Sau Dan 李守敦 ~{@nJX6X~}

E-mail: ***@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee
Peter Dy
2005-06-18 11:27:20 UTC
Permalink
[...]
Peter> *There was lots of trade with Arabs, as the mosque note
Peter> above suggests. Gernet says that Muslim, Nestorian,
Peter> Catholic, Manichean, and Hindu inscriptions have been found
Peter> there from the 13th century. Also, that's where English
Peter> gets the word "satin" from, since the Arabic name for
Peter> Quanzhou was apparently "Zaytun."

Where does this Arabic name come from? What was Quanzhou called?


*Apparently the Arabs called Quanzhou, "Zaitun." I don't know what the
minanhua for it was back then. Anyways, here's the AHD entry for "satin"
(sans diacritics):

"Middle English, from Old French, probably from Arabic ('atlas) 'zaituniy,'
(satin) of Zaitun, from 'Zaitun,' probably Tsinkiang (Quanzhou or
Chuanchow), a city of southeast China."

Peter
Yusuf B Gursey
2005-06-20 21:14:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lee Sau Dan
[...]
Peter> *There was lots of trade with Arabs, as the mosque note
Peter> above suggests. Gernet says that Muslim, Nestorian,
Peter> Catholic, Manichean, and Hindu inscriptions have been found
Peter> there from the 13th century. Also, that's where English
Peter> gets the word "satin" from, since the Arabic name for
Peter> Quanzhou was apparently "Zaytun."
Where does this Arabic name come from? What was Quanzhou called?
*Apparently the Arabs called Quanzhou, "Zaitun." I don't know what the
minanhua for it was back then. Anyways, here's the AHD entry for "satin"
"Middle English, from Old French, probably from Arabic ('atlas) 'zaituniy,'
(satin) of Zaitun, from 'Zaitun,' probably Tsinkiang (Quanzhou or
Chuanchow), a city of southeast China."
Enc. of Islam II recontstructs an original vocalization of *zi:tu:n

Thatcher, in his translation of Rashiduddin (Mongol history; voll 3 p.
445)
reconstructs *zayton based on Marco Polo's C,aiton ands references
Pelliot, "Marco Polo" 1:588-93
Post by Lee Sau Dan
Peter
Peter Dy
2005-06-21 08:12:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Lee Sau Dan
[...]
Peter> *There was lots of trade with Arabs, as the mosque note
Peter> above suggests. Gernet says that Muslim, Nestorian,
Peter> Catholic, Manichean, and Hindu inscriptions have been found
Peter> there from the 13th century. Also, that's where English
Peter> gets the word "satin" from, since the Arabic name for
Peter> Quanzhou was apparently "Zaytun."
Where does this Arabic name come from? What was Quanzhou called?
*Apparently the Arabs called Quanzhou, "Zaitun." I don't know what the
minanhua for it was back then. Anyways, here's the AHD entry for "satin"
"Middle English, from Old French, probably from Arabic ('atlas) 'zaituniy,'
(satin) of Zaitun, from 'Zaitun,' probably Tsinkiang (Quanzhou or
Chuanchow), a city of southeast China."
Enc. of Islam II recontstructs an original vocalization of *zi:tu:n
Thatcher, in his translation of Rashiduddin (Mongol history; voll 3 p.
445)
reconstructs *zayton based on Marco Polo's C,aiton ands references
Pelliot, "Marco Polo" 1:588-93
Thanks for looking that up, Yusuf. Very interesting.

Still, I'm a bit confused. Polo lived from 1254-1324, and yet the first
mosque in Quanzhou was built in 1009. So, surely the Arabs had a name for
the place way before Polo arrived, no?

Peter
Peter Dy
2005-06-21 08:18:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Dy
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Lee Sau Dan
[...]
Peter> *There was lots of trade with Arabs, as the mosque note
Peter> above suggests. Gernet says that Muslim, Nestorian,
Peter> Catholic, Manichean, and Hindu inscriptions have been found
Peter> there from the 13th century. Also, that's where English
Peter> gets the word "satin" from, since the Arabic name for
Peter> Quanzhou was apparently "Zaytun."
Where does this Arabic name come from? What was Quanzhou called?
*Apparently the Arabs called Quanzhou, "Zaitun." I don't know what the
minanhua for it was back then. Anyways, here's the AHD entry for "satin"
"Middle English, from Old French, probably from Arabic ('atlas) 'zaituniy,'
(satin) of Zaitun, from 'Zaitun,' probably Tsinkiang (Quanzhou or
Chuanchow), a city of southeast China."
Enc. of Islam II recontstructs an original vocalization of *zi:tu:n
Thatcher, in his translation of Rashiduddin (Mongol history; voll 3 p.
445)
reconstructs *zayton based on Marco Polo's C,aiton ands references
Pelliot, "Marco Polo" 1:588-93
Thanks for looking that up, Yusuf. Very interesting.
Still, I'm a bit confused. Polo lived from 1254-1324, and yet the first
mosque in Quanzhou was built in 1009. So, surely the Arabs had a name for
the place way before Polo arrived, no?
Also, check out this website, which I'm guessing is accurate:

"In approximately 618 AD, when Mohammed had to flee Mecca, and was generally
unpopular in Arabia, knowing of the large community of Arab traders on the
coasts of China, he sent four trusted disciples here, one to Guangzhou, two
to Quanzhou and the fourth, a bit later, to Yangzhou. Quanzhou, as a result,
shares with Guangzhou the honour of having the oldest Moslem community in
the world. The tombs of the two missionaries, known in China as the Second
Saint and the Third Saint, outside the East gate of the city, have been
lovingly tended for over 1300 years by the Moslem community in Quanzhou. The
Mosque in Tushan Lu-see left-has claims to being the oldest mosque in East
Asia.
It was built in 1004, taking its design from a mosque in Damascus."

Does that sound correct to you?

http://www.mzfh.com/Mac/Quanzhou/aboutq.html

Peter
Yusuf B Gursey
2005-06-21 10:40:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Dy
Post by Peter Dy
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Lee Sau Dan
[...]
Peter> *There was lots of trade with Arabs, as the mosque note
Peter> above suggests. Gernet says that Muslim, Nestorian,
Peter> Catholic, Manichean, and Hindu inscriptions have been found
Peter> there from the 13th century. Also, that's where English
Peter> gets the word "satin" from, since the Arabic name for
Peter> Quanzhou was apparently "Zaytun."
Where does this Arabic name come from? What was Quanzhou called?
*Apparently the Arabs called Quanzhou, "Zaitun." I don't know what the
minanhua for it was back then. Anyways, here's the AHD entry for "satin"
"Middle English, from Old French, probably from Arabic ('atlas) 'zaituniy,'
(satin) of Zaitun, from 'Zaitun,' probably Tsinkiang (Quanzhou or
Chuanchow), a city of southeast China."
Enc. of Islam II recontstructs an original vocalization of *zi:tu:n
Thatcher, in his translation of Rashiduddin (Mongol history; voll 3 p.
445)
reconstructs *zayton based on Marco Polo's C,aiton ands references
Pelliot, "Marco Polo" 1:588-93
Thanks for looking that up, Yusuf. Very interesting.
Still, I'm a bit confused. Polo lived from 1254-1324, and yet the first
mosque in Quanzhou was built in 1009. So, surely the Arabs had a name for
the place way before Polo arrived, no?
the beginning is probably accurate only as far as reporting the local
legend. it's not part of the canonical biography of Muhammad (AFAIK),
nor does it sound realistic.
Post by Peter Dy
"In approximately 618 AD, when Mohammed had to flee Mecca, and was generally
unpopular in Arabia, knowing of the large community of Arab traders on the
coasts of China, he sent four trusted disciples here, one to Guangzhou, two
to Quanzhou and the fourth, a bit later, to Yangzhou. Quanzhou, as a result,
shares with Guangzhou the honour of having the oldest Moslem community in
the world. The tombs of the two missionaries, known in China as the Second
Saint and the Third Saint, outside the East gate of the city, have been
lovingly tended for over 1300 years by the Moslem community in Quanzhou. The
Mosque in Tushan Lu-see left-has claims to being the oldest mosque in East
Asia.
It was built in 1004, taking its design from a mosque in Damascus."
Does that sound correct to you?
http://www.mzfh.com/Mac/Quanzhou/aboutq.html
Peter
Yusuf B Gursey
2005-06-21 14:40:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Peter Dy
Post by Peter Dy
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Lee Sau Dan
[...]
Peter> *There was lots of trade with Arabs, as the mosque note
Peter> above suggests. Gernet says that Muslim, Nestorian,
Peter> Catholic, Manichean, and Hindu inscriptions have been found
Peter> there from the 13th century. Also, that's where English
Peter> gets the word "satin" from, since the Arabic name for
Peter> Quanzhou was apparently "Zaytun."
Where does this Arabic name come from? What was Quanzhou called?
*Apparently the Arabs called Quanzhou, "Zaitun." I don't know what the
minanhua for it was back then. Anyways, here's the AHD entry for "satin"
"Middle English, from Old French, probably from Arabic ('atlas) 'zaituniy,'
(satin) of Zaitun, from 'Zaitun,' probably Tsinkiang (Quanzhou or
Chuanchow), a city of southeast China."
Enc. of Islam II recontstructs an original vocalization of *zi:tu:n
Thatcher, in his translation of Rashiduddin (Mongol history; voll 3 p.
445)
reconstructs *zayton based on Marco Polo's C,aiton ands references
Pelliot, "Marco Polo" 1:588-93
Thanks for looking that up, Yusuf. Very interesting.
Still, I'm a bit confused. Polo lived from 1254-1324, and yet the first
mosque in Quanzhou was built in 1009. So, surely the Arabs had a name for
the place way before Polo arrived, no?
the beginning is probably accurate only as far as reporting the local
legend. it's not part of the canonical biography of Muhammad (AFAIK),
nor does it sound realistic.
that being said, some early arab contact did take place, from
Enc. of Islam II "al-Sin (china)":



The lengthy florescence and importance of a Muslim Arab and Persian
colony at Zaytu:n is further attested by the survival there of several
hundred mosque and tombstone inscriptions in Arabic script, mostly in
Arabic language but with some in Persian and with some Arabic-Chinese
bilingual ones, dating from the 7th to the 15th century. See Chen
Da-sheng, Islamic inscriptions in Quanzhou (Zaitun), tr. Chen En-ming
and Zheng De-chao, Ningxia and Fujian 1984; R.B. Serjeant, Yemenis in
mediaeval Quanzhou (Canton) [sic], in New Arabian Studies, i, Exeter
1993, 231-4.
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Peter Dy
"In approximately 618 AD, when Mohammed had to flee Mecca, and was generally
unpopular in Arabia, knowing of the large community of Arab traders on the
coasts of China, he sent four trusted disciples here, one to Guangzhou, two
to Quanzhou and the fourth, a bit later, to Yangzhou. Quanzhou, as a result,
shares with Guangzhou the honour of having the oldest Moslem community in
the world. The tombs of the two missionaries, known in China as the Second
Saint and the Third Saint, outside the East gate of the city, have been
lovingly tended for over 1300 years by the Moslem community in Quanzhou. The
Mosque in Tushan Lu-see left-has claims to being the oldest mosque in East
Asia.
It was built in 1004, taking its design from a mosque in Damascus."
Does that sound correct to you?
http://www.mzfh.com/Mac/Quanzhou/aboutq.html
Peter
Peter Dy
2005-06-22 09:54:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
the beginning is probably accurate only as far as reporting the local
legend. it's not part of the canonical biography of Muhammad (AFAIK),
nor does it sound realistic.
that being said, some early arab contact did take place, from
The lengthy florescence and importance of a Muslim Arab and Persian
colony at Zaytu:n is further attested by the survival there of several
hundred mosque and tombstone inscriptions in Arabic script, mostly in
Arabic language but with some in Persian and with some Arabic-Chinese
bilingual ones, dating from the 7th to the 15th century. See Chen
Da-sheng, Islamic inscriptions in Quanzhou (Zaitun), tr. Chen En-ming
and Zheng De-chao, Ningxia and Fujian 1984; R.B. Serjeant, Yemenis in
mediaeval Quanzhou (Canton) [sic], in New Arabian Studies, i, Exeter
1993, 231-4.
Thanks again. And, yes, I misread your earlier post about the the
reconstruction of Polo's "C,aiton". I thought your references served to
cast doubt on the Arabic name of Zaitun for Quanzhou.

I don't have any specific books on the Arab relations with China, but my
Indonesian history book told me:

"From the time of the third caliph of Islam, 'Uthman (644-56), Muslim
emissaries from Arabia began to arrice at the Chinese court. By at least
the ninth century there were several thousand Muslim merchants in Canton."
[Ricklefs, M.C. _A History of Modern Indonesisa Since c.1300_. Stanford
UP: 1993]

So, that's why I didn't find anything strange about that website I linked
to, though, of course, I wasn't looking at that site as a scholarly in any
way.

Peter
Yusuf B Gursey
2005-06-22 20:12:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Dy
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
the beginning is probably accurate only as far as reporting the local
legend. it's not part of the canonical biography of Muhammad (AFAIK),
nor does it sound realistic.
that being said, some early arab contact did take place, from
The lengthy florescence and importance of a Muslim Arab and Persian
colony at Zaytu:n is further attested by the survival there of several
hundred mosque and tombstone inscriptions in Arabic script, mostly in
Arabic language but with some in Persian and with some Arabic-Chinese
bilingual ones, dating from the 7th to the 15th century. See Chen
Da-sheng, Islamic inscriptions in Quanzhou (Zaitun), tr. Chen En-ming
and Zheng De-chao, Ningxia and Fujian 1984; R.B. Serjeant, Yemenis in
mediaeval Quanzhou (Canton) [sic], in New Arabian Studies, i, Exeter
1993, 231-4.
Thanks again. And, yes, I misread your earlier post about the the
reconstruction of Polo's "C,aiton". I thought your references served to
cast doubt on the Arabic name of Zaitun for Quanzhou.
I don't have any specific books on the Arab relations with China, but my
"From the time of the third caliph of Islam, 'Uthman (644-56), Muslim
emissaries from Arabia began to arrice at the Chinese court. By at least
the ninth century there were several thousand Muslim merchants in Canton."
[Ricklefs, M.C. _A History of Modern Indonesisa Since c.1300_. Stanford
UP: 1993]
this is what the references cited by me say.

I looked up Ibn Battuta. he just says that there are muslims there, and
that the name has nothing to do with olives. if there was a legend
about an emissary from the Prophet at the time, I assume he would have
mentioned it.
Post by Peter Dy
So, that's why I didn't find anything strange about that website I linked
to, though, of course, I wasn't looking at that site as a scholarly in any
way.
Peter
Peter T. Daniels
2005-06-21 11:56:40 UTC
Permalink
It appears from the URL to be either a proselytizing or a tourist site,
either of which would perpetuate legends without concern for historical
accuracy, and the form "Moslem" indicates that little scholarship is
involved.
Post by Peter Dy
"In approximately 618 AD, when Mohammed had to flee Mecca, and was generally
unpopular in Arabia, knowing of the large community of Arab traders on the
coasts of China, he sent four trusted disciples here, one to Guangzhou, two
to Quanzhou and the fourth, a bit later, to Yangzhou. Quanzhou, as a result,
shares with Guangzhou the honour of having the oldest Moslem community in
the world. The tombs of the two missionaries, known in China as the Second
Saint and the Third Saint, outside the East gate of the city, have been
lovingly tended for over 1300 years by the Moslem community in Quanzhou. The
Mosque in Tushan Lu-see left-has claims to being the oldest mosque in East
Asia.
It was built in 1004, taking its design from a mosque in Damascus."
Does that sound correct to you?
http://www.mzfh.com/Mac/Quanzhou/aboutq.html
First I'm hearing of a "large community of Arab traders on the coasts of
China" in the 6th-7th century ...
--
Peter T. Daniels ***@att.net
Yusuf B Gursey
2005-06-21 10:37:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Dy
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Lee Sau Dan
[...]
Peter> *There was lots of trade with Arabs, as the mosque note
Peter> above suggests. Gernet says that Muslim, Nestorian,
Peter> Catholic, Manichean, and Hindu inscriptions have been found
Peter> there from the 13th century. Also, that's where English
Peter> gets the word "satin" from, since the Arabic name for
Peter> Quanzhou was apparently "Zaytun."
Where does this Arabic name come from? What was Quanzhou called?
*Apparently the Arabs called Quanzhou, "Zaitun." I don't know what the
minanhua for it was back then. Anyways, here's the AHD entry for "satin"
"Middle English, from Old French, probably from Arabic ('atlas) 'zaituniy,'
(satin) of Zaitun, from 'Zaitun,' probably Tsinkiang (Quanzhou or
Chuanchow), a city of southeast China."
Enc. of Islam II recontstructs an original vocalization of *zi:tu:n
Thatcher, in his translation of Rashiduddin (Mongol history; voll 3 p.
445)
reconstructs *zayton based on Marco Polo's C,aiton ands references
Pelliot, "Marco Polo" 1:588-93
Thanks for looking that up, Yusuf. Very interesting.
Still, I'm a bit confused. Polo lived from 1254-1324, and yet the first
mosque in Quanzhou was built in 1009. So, surely the Arabs had a name for
the place way before Polo arrived, no?
of course. but possibly Marco Polo could give details about the vowel
quality not found in the arabic script. Polo knew Coman turkic and
seems to have hung about mongols and turks in china. Thatcher comments
that the place-names agree with Rashiduddin who wrote in mongol ruled
Iran. also leading to the suspicions that he didn't travel to china at
all.
Post by Peter Dy
Peter
Peter T. Daniels
2005-06-18 13:07:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lee Sau Dan
Peter> *Do you mean Quan2zhou1? According to Gernet, it became
Peter> the biggest port in China in the 11th century (Song
Peter> dynasty).
Yeah.
Peter> The big Chinese seafarer Zheng2cheng2gong1 of the Ming
Peter> dynasty -- the one who is now suspected by some people to
Peter> have circumnavigated the globe a few decades earlier than
Peter> Columbus -- also set off from Chuan2zhou1.
Peter> *It's also the site of one of the earliest mosques in
Peter> China, built 1009.
Yeah. I was suspecting whether there was sea-trade between China and
the Arabic world at that time. Certainly, there was already
land-trade, and some products (such as spice) came from Persia.
Peter> *There was lots of trade with Arabs, as the mosque note
Peter> above suggests. Gernet says that Muslim, Nestorian,
Peter> Catholic, Manichean, and Hindu inscriptions have been found
Peter> there from the 13th century. Also, that's where English
Peter> gets the word "satin" from, since the Arabic name for
Peter> Quanzhou was apparently "Zaytun."
Where does this Arabic name come from? What was Quanzhou called?
zayt-un is 'olive'
--
Peter T. Daniels ***@att.net
Lee Sau Dan
2005-06-18 15:41:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lee Sau Dan
Where does this Arabic name come from? What was Quanzhou
called?
Peter> zayt-un is 'olive'

What does the hyphen there mean? Glottal stop? Or just to show that
"un" is the no-longer-spoken inflectional suffix in older forms of
Arabic? If so, is that "t" written with ta-marbuta in modern Arabic?
--
Lee Sau Dan 李守敦 ~{@nJX6X~}

E-mail: ***@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee
Peter T. Daniels
2005-06-18 23:24:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lee Sau Dan
Post by Lee Sau Dan
Where does this Arabic name come from? What was Quanzhou called?
Peter> zayt-un is 'olive'
What does the hyphen there mean? Glottal stop? Or just to show that
"un" is the no-longer-spoken inflectional suffix in older forms of
Arabic? If so, is that "t" written with ta-marbuta in modern Arabic?
-un is the case ending.

ta-marbuta is something entirely different.
--
Peter T. Daniels ***@att.net
G. Leo Sahakian
2005-06-18 21:27:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lee Sau Dan
Post by Lee Sau Dan
Where does this Arabic name come from? What was Quanzhou called?
Peter> zayt-un is 'olive'
confusion between zait(un), (olive) oil, and zaitu:n(un), olive(s), olive
tree, sg. zaitu:na(tun), an olive(?) of course derived from the preceding,
colloquial ze:t and ze(:)tu:n, ze(:)tu:na; with the def. art. az-zait(u) >
es. aceite, az-zaitu:n(u) > es. aceituno olive tree, az-zaitu:na(tu) > es.
aceituna, olive.
Post by Lee Sau Dan
What does the hyphen there mean? Glottal stop? Or just to show that
"un" is the no-longer-spoken inflectional suffix in older forms of
Arabic? If so, is that "t" written with ta-marbuta in modern Arabic?
ta:'-marbu:t.a occurs only in the (fem.) suffix -a(tun).
--
G. Leo Sahakian
Be kind to animals; they owe you nothing. Let them live in peace,
unless your life is at risk.
http://www.pour-les-animaux.de/.
Post by Lee Sau Dan
--
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee
Yusuf B Gursey
2005-06-19 21:59:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lee Sau Dan
Peter> *Do you mean Quan2zhou1? According to Gernet, it became
Peter> the biggest port in China in the 11th century (Song
Peter> dynasty).
Yeah.
Peter> The big Chinese seafarer Zheng2cheng2gong1 of the Ming
Peter> dynasty -- the one who is now suspected by some people to
Peter> have circumnavigated the globe a few decades earlier than
Peter> Columbus -- also set off from Chuan2zhou1.
Peter> *It's also the site of one of the earliest mosques in
Peter> China, built 1009.
Yeah. I was suspecting whether there was sea-trade between China and
the Arabic world at that time. Certainly, there was already
land-trade, and some products (such as spice) came from Persia.
arabs established an independent connection sea connection with S.
China, while there was a land connection controlled by Persians (mostly
Tajik) and Turks.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lee Sau Dan
Peter> *There was lots of trade with Arabs, as the mosque note
Peter> above suggests. Gernet says that Muslim, Nestorian,
Peter> Catholic, Manichean, and Hindu inscriptions have been found
Peter> there from the 13th century. Also, that's where English
Peter> gets the word "satin" from, since the Arabic name for
Peter> Quanzhou was apparently "Zaytun."
I'll try to find out what Rashiduddin (persian historian for muslim
western mongols) has for it, if he mentioned it.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lee Sau Dan
Where does this Arabic name come from? What was Quanzhou called?
zayt-un is 'olive'
zaytu:n is "olive" (collective), sing zaytu:na(t) olive (tree or fruit)


the ending -u:n is part of the word and takes the regular case endings.
zayt (+ regular case endings) is "olive oil" (specifically) but also
"oil" in general. but it shares the meaning of automotive oil etc. with
duhn "grease, animal oil" (so apparently in Iraq) and of "petroleum"
with nafT (< naphtha) and of course batru:l / bitru:l
Post by Peter T. Daniels
--
Dylan Sung
2005-06-20 06:27:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lee Sau Dan
Where does this Arabic name come from? What was Quanzhou called?
zayt-un is 'olive'
zaytu:n is "olive" (collective), sing zaytu:na(t) olive (tree or fruit)
On a different tangent, can you tell me why sultana (a dried black grape) is
called that, when she ought to be a sultan's wife?

Dyl.
Peter T. Daniels
2005-06-20 15:10:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dylan Sung
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lee Sau Dan
Where does this Arabic name come from? What was Quanzhou called?
zayt-un is 'olive'
zaytu:n is "olive" (collective), sing zaytu:na(t) olive (tree or fruit)
On a different tangent, can you tell me why sultana (a dried black grape) is
called that, when she ought to be a sultan's wife?
That's a Briticism; you'll have to ask the Queen.

Over here they're "raisins" (cf. French).

Occasionally a box of _white_ raisins is labeled "sultanas."
--
Peter T. Daniels ***@att.net
John Atkinson
2005-06-21 07:50:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Dylan Sung
On a different tangent, can you tell me why sultana (a dried black grape) is
called that, when she ought to be a sultan's wife?
That's a Briticism; you'll have to ask the Queen.
Over here they're "raisins" (cf. French).
Occasionally a box of _white_ raisins is labeled "sultanas."
"Raisins" are partly-dried grapes of any variety. "Sultanas" are a
particular variety of green seedless grape, originally from Turkey,
often used to make raisins. Raisins made of sultana grapes or similar
varieties are, not surprisingly, often called "sultanas", all over the
English-speaking world. Just as raisins from muscat grapes are
sometimes called "moscatels", and raisins from Zante currant grapes are
usually called "currants".

To call black-grape raisins "sultanas" is simply a mistake, wherever you
are. Sorry Dylan. It's not a Briticism. Sorry Peter.

Though I believe there is a small difference between British (or at
least Australian) and American usage. In Australia, any raisins made
from sultana-type grapes (usually Thompson seedless) can be called
sultanas. In America, only those that are machine-dried and treated
with sulphur to make them extra-pale in colour are called "sultanas"
(also "golden raisins", or "California raisins"), while sun-dried
sultana grapes are usually just called "raisins", as are the larger
dried muscat grapes.

John.
Peter T. Daniels
2005-06-21 11:50:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dylan Sung
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Dylan Sung
On a different tangent, can you tell me why sultana (a dried black
grape) is
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Dylan Sung
called that, when she ought to be a sultan's wife?
That's a Briticism; you'll have to ask the Queen.
Over here they're "raisins" (cf. French).
Occasionally a box of _white_ raisins is labeled "sultanas."
"Raisins" are partly-dried grapes of any variety. "Sultanas" are a
particular variety of green seedless grape, originally from Turkey,
often used to make raisins. Raisins made of sultana grapes or similar
varieties are, not surprisingly, often called "sultanas", all over the
English-speaking world. Just as raisins from muscat grapes are
sometimes called "moscatels", and raisins from Zante currant grapes are
usually called "currants".
To call black-grape raisins "sultanas" is simply a mistake, wherever you
are. Sorry Dylan. It's not a Briticism. Sorry Peter.
Though I believe there is a small difference between British (or at
least Australian) and American usage. In Australia, any raisins made
from sultana-type grapes (usually Thompson seedless) can be called
sultanas. In America, only those that are machine-dried and treated
with sulphur to make them extra-pale in colour are called "sultanas"
(also "golden raisins", or "California raisins"), while sun-dried
sultana grapes are usually just called "raisins", as are the larger
dried muscat grapes.
I have a couple of British cookbooks (at least one of them bilingual,
British and American), and "raisin" is rendered 'sultana' throughout.
--
Peter T. Daniels ***@att.net
david
2005-06-20 15:49:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dylan Sung
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lee Sau Dan
Where does this Arabic name come from? What was Quanzhou called?
zayt-un is 'olive'
zaytu:n is "olive" (collective), sing zaytu:na(t) olive (tree or fruit)
On a different tangent, can you tell me why sultana (a dried black grape) is
called that, when she ought to be a sultan's wife?
Dyl.
On yet another tangent, why was Franklin thinking of making tofu out of
garbanzos instead of soy beans?

david
Peter T. Daniels
2005-06-20 18:40:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by david
Post by Dylan Sung
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lee Sau Dan
Where does this Arabic name come from? What was Quanzhou called?
zayt-un is 'olive'
zaytu:n is "olive" (collective), sing zaytu:na(t) olive (tree or fruit)
On a different tangent, can you tell me why sultana (a dried black grape) is
called that, when she ought to be a sultan's wife?
Dyl.
On yet another tangent, why was Franklin thinking of making tofu out of
garbanzos instead of soy beans?
Were soybeans available in 18th-century eastern North America?
--
Peter T. Daniels ***@att.net
Dylan Sung
2005-06-20 19:20:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by david
Post by Dylan Sung
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lee Sau Dan
Where does this Arabic name come from? What was Quanzhou called?
zayt-un is 'olive'
zaytu:n is "olive" (collective), sing zaytu:na(t) olive (tree or fruit)
On a different tangent, can you tell me why sultana (a dried black grape) is
called that, when she ought to be a sultan's wife?
Dyl.
On yet another tangent, why was Franklin thinking of making tofu out of
garbanzos instead of soy beans?
Were soybeans available in 18th-century eastern North America?
The making of tofu involves the soaking of the raw beans, then milling them
to mush and straining out the soya milk, and finally adding a very pure form
of gypsum to help thicken it up during cooking.

Franklin's mentioning of rennet (a chemical obtained from the stomachs of
animals) to thicken may be wrong. As you guys have pointed out,
garbanzo/chickpea are a type of legume, it may be possible to form a
chickpea mush, to obtain the chickpea milk. I don't know whether the
addition of gypsum will make the liquid solidify during cooking.

Dyl.
Lee Sau Dan
2005-06-20 23:55:03 UTC
Permalink
Dylan> The making of tofu involves the soaking of the raw beans,
Dylan> then milling them to mush and straining out the soya milk,
Dylan> and finally adding a very pure form of gypsum to help
Dylan> thicken it up during cooking.

Do they first cook then mill, or first mill then cook?

From where do they get gypsum?

BTW, gypsum doesn't just help. It's necessary. Without it, the
liquid remains soya milk. It won't solidify by itself.
--
Lee Sau Dan 李守敦 ~{@nJX6X~}

E-mail: ***@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee
Peter T. Daniels
2005-06-21 01:31:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lee Sau Dan
Dylan> The making of tofu involves the soaking of the raw beans,
Dylan> then milling them to mush and straining out the soya milk,
Dylan> and finally adding a very pure form of gypsum to help
Dylan> thicken it up during cooking.
Do they first cook then mill, or first mill then cook?
From where do they get gypsum?
BTW, gypsum doesn't just help. It's necessary. Without it, the
liquid remains soya milk. It won't solidify by itself.
So when you eat tofu, you're eatlng chalk??
--
Peter T. Daniels ***@att.net
Lee Sau Dan
2005-06-21 05:10:40 UTC
Permalink
BTW, gypsum doesn't just help. It's necessary. Without it,
the liquid remains soya milk. It won't solidify by itself.
Peter> So when you eat tofu, you're eatlng chalk??

Almost. Tofu is very rich in calcium. :)

But gypsum is mainly calcium sulphate. Chalk is mainly calcium
carbonate. The composition is different.
--
Lee Sau Dan 李守敦 ~{@nJX6X~}

E-mail: ***@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee
Peter Dy
2005-06-21 06:59:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lee Sau Dan
Dylan> The making of tofu involves the soaking of the raw beans,
Dylan> then milling them to mush and straining out the soya milk,
Dylan> and finally adding a very pure form of gypsum to help
Dylan> thicken it up during cooking.
Do they first cook then mill, or first mill then cook?
From where do they get gypsum?
BTW, gypsum doesn't just help. It's necessary. Without it, the
liquid remains soya milk. It won't solidify by itself.
So when you eat tofu, you're eatlng chalk??
Same with whenever you eat in a Mexican restaurant, since all the corn has
beeen nixtamalized, ie cooked with lime (calcium oxide) or, originally, with
wood ash. This process, also used in parts of Central America, actually
increases the protein value of the maize, such that countries that picked up
on corn after the Conquest could suffer from dietary deficiencies since they
didn't also pick up treating the corn with lime.

So, if you walk through markets in Mexico, you'll see vendors selling white
hunks of chalk.

Peter
Peter Dy
2005-06-21 07:14:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lee Sau Dan
Dylan> The making of tofu involves the soaking of the raw beans,
Dylan> then milling them to mush and straining out the soya milk,
Dylan> and finally adding a very pure form of gypsum to help
Dylan> thicken it up during cooking.
Do they first cook then mill, or first mill then cook?
From where do they get gypsum?
BTW, gypsum doesn't just help. It's necessary. Without it, the
liquid remains soya milk. It won't solidify by itself.
So when you eat tofu, you're eatlng chalk??
And btw, I think it's just a tiny amount needed to coagulated the soy milk.
Just like I doubt much rennet is needed to curdle milk for cheese.

Soy milk is very easy to make. You soak dried soy beans. You put the beans
in a blender with water and blend until the beans are well ground up. You
that pour that mixture through a cheesecloth to get rid of the ground beans.
Then you cook the milk (you need to cook it cause raw soy has something bad
about it--not gonna look it up right now what that exactly was). Well,
after you cook it for like 5 minutes, it takes on an interesting "sticky"
texture. So, one can easily see that just a bit of gypsum or nigiri would
be needed to coagulate the stuff. And then you just put the curds into a
form, and press.

Peter
Dylan Sung
2005-06-21 07:31:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Dy
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lee Sau Dan
Dylan> The making of tofu involves the soaking of the raw beans,
Dylan> then milling them to mush and straining out the soya milk,
Dylan> and finally adding a very pure form of gypsum to help
Dylan> thicken it up during cooking.
Do they first cook then mill, or first mill then cook?
From where do they get gypsum?
BTW, gypsum doesn't just help. It's necessary. Without it, the
liquid remains soya milk. It won't solidify by itself.
So when you eat tofu, you're eatlng chalk??
And btw, I think it's just a tiny amount needed to coagulated the soy
milk. Just like I doubt much rennet is needed to curdle milk for cheese.
Soy milk is very easy to make. You soak dried soy beans. You put the
beans in a blender with water and blend until the beans are well ground
up. You that pour that mixture through a cheesecloth to get rid of the
ground beans. Then you cook the milk (you need to cook it cause raw soy
has something bad about it--not gonna look it up right now what that
exactly was). Well, after you cook it for like 5 minutes, it takes on an
interesting "sticky" texture. So, one can easily see that just a bit of
gypsum or nigiri would be needed to coagulate the stuff. And then you
just put the curds into a form, and press.
Do you know whether the different grades of tofu, soft to hard, depends on
how much water they press out, or the amount of cogulant they use?

Dyl.
Peter Dy
2005-06-21 07:46:54 UTC
Permalink
"Dylan Sung" <***@pacific.net.hk> wrote in message news:d98fo6$shk$***@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
[...]
Post by Dylan Sung
Post by Peter Dy
And btw, I think it's just a tiny amount needed to coagulated the soy
milk. Just like I doubt much rennet is needed to curdle milk for cheese.
Soy milk is very easy to make. You soak dried soy beans. You put the
beans in a blender with water and blend until the beans are well ground
up. You that pour that mixture through a cheesecloth to get rid of the
ground beans. Then you cook the milk (you need to cook it cause raw soy
has something bad about it--not gonna look it up right now what that
exactly was). Well, after you cook it for like 5 minutes, it takes on an
interesting "sticky" texture. So, one can easily see that just a bit of
gypsum or nigiri would be needed to coagulate the stuff. And then you
just put the curds into a form, and press.
Do you know whether the different grades of tofu, soft to hard, depends on
how much water they press out, or the amount of cogulant they use?
It's the pressing. Silken tofu, for instance, which is popular in Japan,
and I'm sure in parts of China as well, is made by adding the coagulating
agent to the soy milk, and basically just letting it curdle, whereupon you
cut the delicate mass. So, I think there's barely any pressing at all.

Saw that on an episode of the Iron Chef (you get that in the UK?). Morimoto
made fresh tofu, and since he only had an hour to do it, there was no
pressing involved. But the Chinese have that as well, no? In dimsum
parlors, they have that ultra soft tofu dish, with plump pieces of tofu in a
slightly sweet syrup. I can't imagine that that dish isn't made on the
premises. Forgot the name of that dish.

Peter
Dylan Sung
2005-06-21 12:15:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Dy
Post by Dylan Sung
Do you know whether the different grades of tofu, soft to hard, depends
on how much water they press out, or the amount of cogulant they use?
It's the pressing. Silken tofu, for instance, which is popular in Japan,
and I'm sure in parts of China as well, is made by adding the coagulating
agent to the soy milk, and basically just letting it curdle, whereupon you
cut the delicate mass. So, I think there's barely any pressing at all.
There's an Egg Tofu on sale in a kinda tube form. I've found it is less easy
to break into smaller pieces than silken tofu, whilst retaining the
softness.
Post by Peter Dy
Saw that on an episode of the Iron Chef (you get that in the UK?).
I've watched it before, on Japanese satellite, but I don't have satellite
anymore... It's awfully over-dramatic, and the set in which they film in is
awfully dark.
Post by Peter Dy
Morimoto made fresh tofu, and since he only had an hour to do it, there
was no pressing involved. But the Chinese have that as well, no? In
dimsum parlors, they have that ultra soft tofu dish, with plump pieces of
tofu in a slightly sweet syrup. I can't imagine that that dish isn't made
on the premises. Forgot the name of that dish.
Yes, called "bean curd flower" Cant. /tau fu fa/, Hak. /t'eu fu fa/, Mand.
"dou fu hua". You can buy instant bean curd "cheese" as well. They come in a
box of 8 sachets, which you mix with boiling water, and leave to set. It's
pre-sweetened though. I once found a metal nut in one of these sachets...

Dyl.
Lee Sau Dan
2005-06-21 15:25:34 UTC
Permalink
Dylan> Yes, called "bean curd flower" Cant. /tau fu fa/,
Dylan> Hak. /t'eu fu fa/, Mand. "dou fu hua". You can buy instant
Dylan> bean curd "cheese" as well. They come in a box of 8
Dylan> sachets, which you mix with boiling water, and leave to
Dylan> set. It's pre-sweetened though. I once found a metal nut in
Dylan> one of these sachets...

Yeah. I bought one pack from France (because it's much cheaper there)
when I was residing in Germany. I found it too sweet. Maybe, it's to
suit the Europeans' taste. I've found that Europeans generally eat
much sweeter and much more salty. What they like as "sweet" is
usually too sweet for me. :( And it never settled into a form that I
expected. It's still like a liquid, even when I have reduced the
amount of water added.

I've never found metal inside the sachets, though. You're so lucky. :)
--
Lee Sau Dan 李守敦 ~{@nJX6X~}

E-mail: ***@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee
Tak To
2005-06-21 21:00:20 UTC
Permalink
[Silken tofu] is "bean curd flower" Cant. /tau fu fa/, Hak. /t'eu fu fa/,
Mand. "dou fu hua".
More commonly <dou4 fu4 nao3> 豆腐腦 in Mandarin.

Silken tofu with syrup is probably a Cantonese invention.
In other parts of China it is morely likely to be served with
scallions, hot oil, etc.

When I was a kid there were street hawkers selling silken
dofu. It was scooped from a large earthern jar with a big
clam shell.
You can buy instant bean curd "cheese" as well. They come in a
box of 8 sachets, which you mix with boiling water, and leave to
set. It's pre-sweetened though. I once found a metal nut in one
of these sachets...
The "instant" type usually uses gelatin or similar gel
like substance for coagulant. Not true tofu.

Tak
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Lee Sau Dan
2005-06-22 00:07:22 UTC
Permalink
Tak To
2005-06-22 05:39:28 UTC
Permalink
Tak To <***@alum.mit.edu.-> wrote:
TT> When I was a kid there were street hawkers selling silken
TT> tofu. It was scooped from a large earthern jar with a big
TT> clam shell.

Lee Sau Dan wrote:
LSD> Really a clam shell? I've only see them using a curved
LSD> metal plate.

That too, but the hawker serving my neighhood used a clam
shell. I was quite fascinated the the mother-of-pearl color
on its inside surface.

----- -----

LSD> BTW, have you heard of "ginger juice 'clashing' milk"?
LSD> It's an interesting way to make a desert.

Of course! Yum!

For those not familiar with this desert, it is (water buffalo)
milk coagulated with ginger juice. One takes a bowl, rub its
inside with a freshly cut piece and ginger and leaves a little
bit of ginnger juice at the bottom. Then one pours in the
milk (sweetened with sugar). The whole bowl of milk coagulates
almost instantly.

It is quite fascinating to watch.

Tak
Lee Sau Dan
2005-06-22 14:49:44 UTC
Permalink
Tak> For those not familiar with this desert, it is (water
Tak> buffalo) milk coagulated with ginger juice. One takes a
Tak> bowl, rub its inside with a freshly cut piece and ginger and
Tak> leaves a little bit of ginnger juice at the bottom. Then one
Tak> pours in the milk (sweetened with sugar). The whole bowl of
Tak> milk coagulates almost instantly.

I've seen it made on TV. The chef has to pour the liquid a few times
between 2 jars, held in 2 hands. They say it's to force some air to
go into the mixture.


Tak> It is quite fascinating to watch.

Yeah. Like playing magic.
--
Lee Sau Dan 李守敦 ~{@nJX6X~}

E-mail: ***@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee
Lee Sau Dan
2005-06-21 15:20:54 UTC
Permalink
Peter> It's the pressing. Silken tofu, for instance, which is
Peter> popular in Japan, and I'm sure in parts of China as well,
Peter> is made by adding the coagulating agent to the soy milk,
Peter> and basically just letting it curdle, whereupon you cut the
Peter> delicate mass. So, I think there's barely any pressing at
Peter> all.

That's different from what I've been hearing from older people. They
say the harder ones are made with more gypsum. And the dessert "tofu
flower" (some people call it "Chinese blue cheese") is made by adding
as little gypsum as possible to make it solidify. So, it's very very
soft.


Peter> Saw that on an episode of the Iron Chef (you get that in
Peter> the UK?). Morimoto made fresh tofu, and since he only had
Peter> an hour to do it, there was no pressing involved. But the
Peter> Chinese have that as well, no? In dimsum parlors, they
Peter> have that ultra soft tofu dish, with plump pieces of tofu
Peter> in a slightly sweet syrup. I can't imagine that that dish
Peter> isn't made on the premises. Forgot the name of that dish.

I can't see the reason that it has to be made on the premise. In
China, tofu is so readily available. In Chinatowns, where they may
not have a tofu demand high enough to drive people to manufacture in a
large scale, the chefs may make tofu from tofu-powder imported from
abroad. I guess the powder is dried soya milk powder mixed with
gypsum powder. To make tofu from the powder, just add it to
near-boiling water, stir, and then pour the solution into moulds.
After cooling down, tofu is formed.
--
Lee Sau Dan 李守敦 ~{@nJX6X~}

E-mail: ***@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee
Tak To
2005-06-21 21:27:50 UTC
Permalink
Peter Dy <***@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
PD> [Firmness of tofu is determined by] the pressing.
PD> Silken tofu, for instance, which is
PD> popular in Japan, and I'm sure in parts of China as well,
PD> is made by adding the coagulating agent to the soy milk,
PD> and basically just letting it curdle, whereupon you cut the
PD> delicate mass. So, I think there's barely any pressing at
PD> all.

Lee Sau Dan wrote:
LSD> That's different from what I've been hearing from older people. They
LSD> say the harder ones are made with more gypsum. And the dessert "tofu
LSD> flower" (some people call it "Chinese blue cheese") is made by adding
LSD> as little gypsum as possible to make it solidify. So, it's very very
LSD> soft.

I think Peter is right here. Pressing drains off excess whey so the
result is more firm.

----- -----

PD> Saw that on an episode of the Iron Chef (you get that in
PD> the UK?). Morimoto made fresh tofu, and since he only had
PD> an hour to do it, there was no pressing involved. But the
PD> Chinese have that as well, no? In dimsum parlors, they
PD> have that ultra soft tofu dish, with plump pieces of tofu
PD> in a slightly sweet syrup. I can't imagine that that dish
PD> isn't made on the premises. Forgot the name of that dish.

LSD> I can't see the reason that it has to be made on the premise. In
LSD> China, tofu is so readily available. In Chinatowns, where they may
LSD> not have a tofu demand high enough to drive people to manufacture in a
LSD> large scale, the chefs may make tofu from tofu-powder imported from
LSD> abroad.

I doubt it. Even in the old days, before there were small tofu shops,
people would make their own tofu, their own bean sprouts, etc. These days
tofu is big business, Only a few small shops are left for supplying the
local restaurants. Giant manufacturers made nicely packaged products
for sale in the Chinese supermarkets, which also carry imports from Japan.

These days the (big) Chinese tofu makers here offer 3 types of firmness,
called 老 <nao3> ("old"), 滑 <hua2> ("smooth") and 嫩 <nen4> ("tender")
respectively. The latter two I believe are made from the "silken"
method -- strained soymilk and no pressing. This is probably due to
Japanese influence.

Tak
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--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
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Lee Sau Dan
2005-06-21 23:59:18 UTC
Permalink
LSD> I can't see the reason that it has to be made on the premise.
LSD> In China, tofu is so readily available. In Chinatowns, where
LSD> they may not have a tofu demand high enough to drive people
LSD> to manufacture in a large scale, the chefs may make tofu from
LSD> tofu-powder imported from abroad.

Tak> I doubt it. Even in the old days, before there were small
Tak> tofu shops, people would make their own tofu, their own bean
Tak> sprouts, etc. These days tofu is big business, Only a few
Tak> small shops are left for supplying the local restaurants.
Tak> Giant manufacturers made nicely packaged products for sale in
Tak> the Chinese supermarkets, which also carry imports from
Tak> Japan.

It depends on where you are. In areas where there is not a large
Chinese community, tofu powder is the magic. My cousin runs a Chinese
restaurant in the Swiss town Ascona. It's quite far away from big
cities. Out of curiousity, I asked the chef about the origin of their
tofu. He told me it's made from tofu powder.

You know, tofu cannot be stored for more than a few days. For such a
remote Chinese restaurant where they go to Chinese supermarkets to buy
food only every once a week (or even once a fortnight), keeping tofu
is a problem. Even in a fridge, tofu cannot stay long.
--
Lee Sau Dan 李守敦 ~{@nJX6X~}

E-mail: ***@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee
Dylan Sung
2005-06-22 06:01:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lee Sau Dan
You know, tofu cannot be stored for more than a few days. For such a
remote Chinese restaurant where they go to Chinese supermarkets to buy
food only every once a week (or even once a fortnight), keeping tofu
is a problem. Even in a fridge, tofu cannot stay long.
It has the tendency of going sour. I wonder how they make the smelly tofu?
What would the organism be in creating the odour?

Dyl.
Lee Sau Dan
2005-06-22 14:46:15 UTC
Permalink
You know, tofu cannot be stored for more than a few days. For
such a remote Chinese restaurant where they go to Chinese
supermarkets to buy food only every once a week (or even once a
fortnight), keeping tofu is a problem. Even in a fridge, tofu
cannot stay long.
Dylan> It has the tendency of going sour. I wonder how they make
Dylan> the smelly tofu? What would the organism be in creating
Dylan> the odour?

Dunno. I only know that it's made by fermentation. The awful odour
is due to the fermentation.
--
Lee Sau Dan 李守敦 ~{@nJX6X~}

E-mail: ***@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee
Dylan Sung
2005-06-22 05:58:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tak To
These days the (big) Chinese tofu makers here offer 3 types of firmness,
called ŠÑ <nao3> ("old"), ·Æ <hua2> ("smooth") and ¹à <nen4> ("tender")
Why 'nao' and not 'lao'?

Dyl.
Lee Sau Dan
2005-06-22 14:54:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tak To
These days the (big) Chinese tofu makers here offer 3 types of
firmness, called ¦Ñ <nao3> ("old"), ·Æ <hua2> ("smooth") and ¹à
<nen4> ("tender")
Dylan> Why 'nao' and not 'lao'?

Did he mean "bean curd flower", which is <dou4 fu4 nao3>?
--
Lee Sau Dan

E-mail: ***@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee
Tak To
2005-06-22 19:50:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tak To
These days the (big) Chinese tofu makers here offer 3 types of firmness,
called 老 <nao3> ("old"), 滑 <hua2> ("smooth") and 嫩 <nen4> ("tender")
Why 'nao' and not 'lao'?
Yes, <lao3>. My bad. I must be thinking of <dou4fu4 nao3> when
I wrote that.

Tak
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Lee Sau Dan
2005-06-21 15:15:12 UTC
Permalink
Peter> Soy milk is very easy to make. You soak dried soy beans.
Peter> You put the beans in a blender with water and blend until
Peter> the beans are well ground up. You that pour that mixture
Peter> through a cheesecloth to get rid of the ground beans. Then
Peter> you cook the milk (you need to cook it cause raw soy has
Peter> something bad about it--not gonna look it up right now what
Peter> that exactly was).

The raw soya milk has an unpleasant smell -- a bit like grass. (You
can smell grass easily on a grass ground when the grass has just been
trimmed.)


Peter> Well, after you cook it for like 5 minutes, it takes on an
Peter> interesting "sticky" texture.

Sticky? I don't think so. We sometimes use soya beans to make soups,
and they aren't thick nor sticky.

However, we usually make soya milk for drinking (not for bean curds)
by adding sugar. The sugar makes the solution sticky.


Hot soya milk, like heated animal milk, forms a thin film on the
surface in the pot because of the rich protein contents. Some people
would pick up this film with chopsticks and then fry it to make
another derived food product. (Of course, after picking the film out,
you can wait for another film to form and pick that out, and repeat
the process.)



Peter> So, one can easily see that just a bit of gypsum or nigiri
Peter> would be needed to coagulate the stuff. And then you just
Peter> put the curds into a form, and press.

I think salt can also do it, but gypsum does it much better. Soya
milk can be served in a soup-like mixture with other food ingredients
such as spicy preserved vegetables and sun-dried shrimps. The salt in
these ingredients makes the soya milk to cot into small particles.
--
Lee Sau Dan 李守敦 ~{@nJX6X~}

E-mail: ***@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee
Peter T. Daniels
2005-06-21 16:29:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lee Sau Dan
The raw soya milk has an unpleasant smell -- a bit like grass. (You
can smell grass easily on a grass ground when the grass has just been
trimmed.)
You find the scent of freshly mown grass unpleasant????????
--
Peter T. Daniels ***@att.net
Dylan Sung
2005-06-21 20:15:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lee Sau Dan
The raw soya milk has an unpleasant smell -- a bit like grass. (You
can smell grass easily on a grass ground when the grass has just been
trimmed.)
You find the scent of freshly mown grass unpleasant????????
It's pleasant enough as a smell, but as a taste in some foods, it's not that
nice. I think the adjective meaning "smelling of green" in Chinese refers to
it.

My wife's family had some rather expensive 'cooling tea' (/liON11 ts'a11/),
which is steeped in hot water, and then drunk hot. When I first tasted it,
my thoughts were cigarette ash. However, the amazing thing is, despite the
bitter taste initially, it leaves a sweet taste in the mouth as the after
taste which is quite nice.

Dyl.
Lee Sau Dan
2005-06-21 23:53:49 UTC
Permalink
Dylan> My wife's family had some rather expensive 'cooling tea'
Dylan> (/liON11 ts'a11/), which is steeped in hot water, and then
Dylan> drunk hot. When I first tasted it, my thoughts were
Dylan> cigarette ash. However, the amazing thing is, despite the
Dylan> bitter taste initially, it leaves a sweet taste in the
Dylan> mouth as the after taste which is quite nice.

That kind of "sweetness" is called <gan1> in Mandarin. "After
bitterness, comes <gan1>" is a common Chinese saying. It's not really
the sweetness that Westerners are familiar with. It's not sensed by
the tip of the taste buds on the tongue. It's a kind of pleasant
feeling felt deeper inside the mouth and float. And that sensation
usually forms slowly, and tend to stay for a while.
--
Lee Sau Dan 李守敦 ~{@nJX6X~}

E-mail: ***@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee
Peter T. Daniels
2005-06-22 12:15:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lee Sau Dan
Dylan> My wife's family had some rather expensive 'cooling tea'
Dylan> (/liON11 ts'a11/), which is steeped in hot water, and then
Dylan> drunk hot. When I first tasted it, my thoughts were
Dylan> cigarette ash. However, the amazing thing is, despite the
Dylan> bitter taste initially, it leaves a sweet taste in the
Dylan> mouth as the after taste which is quite nice.
That kind of "sweetness" is called <gan1> in Mandarin. "After
bitterness, comes <gan1>" is a common Chinese saying. It's not really
the sweetness that Westerners are familiar with. It's not sensed by
the tip of the taste buds on the tongue. It's a kind of pleasant
feeling felt deeper inside the mouth and float. And that sensation
usually forms slowly, and tend to stay for a while.
Cocaine?

(There was cocaine in Coca-Cola until it was outlawed in 1906 or
whenever.)
--
Peter T. Daniels ***@att.net
Lee Sau Dan
2005-06-22 14:45:00 UTC
Permalink
That kind of "sweetness" is called <gan1> in Mandarin. "After
bitterness, comes <gan1>" is a common Chinese saying. It's not
really the sweetness that Westerners are familiar with. It's
not sensed by the tip of the taste buds on the tongue. It's a
kind of pleasant feeling felt deeper inside the mouth and
float. And that sensation usually forms slowly, and tend to
stay for a while.
Peter> Cocaine?

No.


Peter> (There was cocaine in Coca-Cola until it was outlawed in
Peter> 1906 or whenever.)

I've heard that. That's why they call it "Coca-...".

BTW, ever heard of the origin of the name "heroin"? Any links to
"hero"?
--
Lee Sau Dan 李守敦 ~{@nJX6X~}

E-mail: ***@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee
Peter T. Daniels
2005-06-22 16:29:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lee Sau Dan
That kind of "sweetness" is called <gan1> in Mandarin. "After
bitterness, comes <gan1>" is a common Chinese saying. It's not
really the sweetness that Westerners are familiar with. It's
not sensed by the tip of the taste buds on the tongue. It's a
kind of pleasant feeling felt deeper inside the mouth and
float. And that sensation usually forms slowly, and tend to
stay for a while.
Peter> Cocaine?
No.
Peter> (There was cocaine in Coca-Cola until it was outlawed in
Peter> 1906 or whenever.)
I've heard that. That's why they call it "Coca-...".
Actually both cocaine and Coca-Cola are named for the coca plant
(Quechua, attested in English from 1577).
Post by Lee Sau Dan
BTW, ever heard of the origin of the name "heroin"? Any links to
"hero"?
Highly unlikely. Unfortunately the Tenth Collegiate says only
"Trademark," dating to 1898. (I thought it was more recent than that.)
--
Peter T. Daniels ***@att.net
Tak To
2005-06-21 22:07:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lee Sau Dan
The raw soya milk has an unpleasant smell -- a bit like grass.
(You can smell grass easily on a grass ground when the grass
has just been trimmed.)
Peter T. Daniels wrote:>
Post by Lee Sau Dan
You find the scent of freshly mown grass unpleasant????????
If found in food, yes.

Lawn is not part of the environment where I grew up, and
freshly mown grass is not associated any memory, fond or
otherwise.

Tak
--
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
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--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
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Lee Sau Dan
2005-06-21 23:55:12 UTC
Permalink
Tak> Peter T. Daniels wrote:>
Post by Peter T. Daniels
You find the scent of freshly mown grass unpleasant????????
Tak> If found in food, yes.

Tak> Lawn is not part of the environment where I grew up, and
Tak> freshly mown grass is not associated any memory, fond or
Tak> otherwise.

Maybe, that's why Chinese people generally don't like western "salad",
which is *uncooked* vegetables?
--
Lee Sau Dan 李守敦 ~{@nJX6X~}

E-mail: ***@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee
Peter T. Daniels
2005-06-22 12:18:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tak To
Post by Lee Sau Dan
The raw soya milk has an unpleasant smell -- a bit like grass.
(You can smell grass easily on a grass ground when the grass
has just been trimmed.)
Peter T. Daniels wrote:>
Post by Lee Sau Dan
You find the scent of freshly mown grass unpleasant????????
If found in food, yes.
Lawn is not part of the environment where I grew up, and
freshly mown grass is not associated any memory, fond or
otherwise.
He didn't refer to the taste; he claimed that the smell of grass is
unpleasant.

I'd have thought all humans love the smell of grass because it was an
essential part of their ancestral environment -- the African savannah.
If they retreated into the dangerous jungle, the scent would be replaced
by what are _un_pleasant smells of humus and mould.
--
Peter T. Daniels ***@att.net
Brian M. Scott
2005-06-22 16:43:01 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 12:18:12 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"
<***@worldnet.att.net> wrote in
<news:***@worldnet.att.net> in sci.lang:

[...]
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I'd have thought all humans love the smell of grass
because it was an essential part of their ancestral
environment -- the African savannah.
Clearly you don't suffer from grass-induced hay fever!

[...]

Brian
Peter T. Daniels
2005-06-22 16:59:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian M. Scott
On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 12:18:12 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"
[...]
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I'd have thought all humans love the smell of grass
because it was an essential part of their ancestral
environment -- the African savannah.
Clearly you don't suffer from grass-induced hay fever!
Is it the grass itself, or its pollen?
--
Peter T. Daniels ***@att.net
Brian M. Scott
2005-06-22 17:17:31 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 16:59:24 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Brian M. Scott
On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 12:18:12 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"
[...]
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I'd have thought all humans love the smell of grass
because it was an essential part of their ancestral
environment -- the African savannah.
Clearly you don't suffer from grass-induced hay fever!
Is it the grass itself, or its pollen?
Mostly the pollen, I imagine, but I do associate the smell
with sneezing, itchy eyes, etc. The smell itself I actually
do consider neutral to moderately pleasant, but it has
enough bad associations that I definitely don't love it.

Brian
Tak To
2005-06-22 19:48:36 UTC
Permalink
Lee Sau Dan wrote:
L.0>The raw soya milk has an unpleasant smell -- a bit like grass.
L.0>
L.0> (You can smell grass easily on a grass ground when the grass
L.0> has just been trimmed.)

Peter T. Daniels wrote:>
D.1> You find the scent of freshly mown grass unpleasant????????

Tak To wrote:
T.2> If found in food, yes.
T.2>
T.2> Lawn is not part of the environment where I grew up, and
T.2> freshly mown grass is not associated any memory, fond or
T.2> otherwise.

D.3> He didn't refer to the taste; he claimed that the smell of
D.3> grass is unpleasant.

I was referring to the smell as well. Perhaps I should have
said, "if from food..."

In Cantonese, there is a specific term 臭青 <chou4 qing1>
"stinking green" for describing that kind of smell.

D.3> I'd have thought all humans love the smell of grass because
D.3> it was an essential part of their ancestral environment --
D.3> the African savannah. If they retreated into the dangerous
D.3> jungle, the scent would be replaced by what are _un_pleasant
D.3> smells of humus and mould.

Perhaps the smell ceased to be appetizing when man lost
the use of his appendix to digest cellulose.

Besides, you were talking about freshly mown lawn -- a whole
lot more broken grass blades than what can be found naturally
in the savannah except perhaps during an elephant stampede. :-)

Tak
--
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
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--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
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Peter Dy
2005-06-22 09:43:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lee Sau Dan
The raw soya milk has an unpleasant smell -- a bit like grass. (You
can smell grass easily on a grass ground when the grass has just been
trimmed.)
You find the scent of freshly mown grass unpleasant????????
Interesting that you ask that. I thought everyone hated the smell of
freshly mown grass! Heck, I think even cow manure smells better.

Peter
Lee Sau Dan
2005-06-22 14:58:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The raw soya milk has an unpleasant smell -- a bit like grass.
(You can smell grass easily on a grass ground when the grass
has just been trimmed.)
You find the scent of freshly mown grass unpleasant????????
Peter> Interesting that you ask that. I thought everyone hated
Peter> the smell of freshly mown grass! Heck, I think even cow
Peter> manure smells better.

Well... it doesn't smell that bad. It gives me a "fresh" feeling. It
contains a kind of chemical called "grass acid" in Chinese.

But it'd be awful for me to put something with that smell into my
mouth. Smelling it from a distance is a different matter than putting
it into the mouth. I don't eat flowers, either, even when they smell
good.
--
Lee Sau Dan 李守敦 ~{@nJX6X~}

E-mail: ***@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee
Tak To
2005-06-22 20:30:10 UTC
Permalink
Well... [freshly mown grass] doesn't smell that bad. It gives
me a "fresh" feeling. It contains a kind of chemical called
"grass acid" in Chinese.
"Grass acid" or 草酸 <cao3 suan1> is oxalic acid, but I don't
remember it to have the smell (at least not in crystal form).

In high school I was into experimenting with chemicals. I read
somewhere that oxalic acid can dissolve the kind of ink used in
ball point pens. So when a white shirt of mine got a small ink
stain, I decided that to wash it away with oxalic acid. However,
soon as I put of a drop of concentrated oxalic acid on the
stain spot, it dissolves the ink immediately and spread the dye
over a much larger area. I had to give the shirt up.

Tak
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Lee Sau Dan
2005-06-23 05:15:59 UTC
Permalink
Tak> In high school I was into experimenting with chemicals. I
Tak> read somewhere that oxalic acid can dissolve the kind of ink
Tak> used in ball point pens. So when a white shirt of mine got a
Tak> small ink stain, I decided that to wash it away with oxalic
Tak> acid.

Oh! I was think about washing off signatures from documents. :)


Tak> However, soon as I put of a drop of concentrated oxalic acid
Tak> on the stain spot, it dissolves the ink immediately and
Tak> spread the dye over a much larger area. I had to give the
Tak> shirt up.

You should perhaps go on and further dilute the dye with more acid.

BTW, is that acid itself coloured? And don't normal bleaching agents
(e.g. hydrochlorous acid, sulphur dioxide solution) work?
--
Lee Sau Dan 李守敦 ~{@nJX6X~}

E-mail: ***@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee
david
2005-06-22 15:17:49 UTC
Permalink
so why was Franklin thinking of making tofu out of
garbanzos instead of soy beans?
I ran across an OED garavance points to caravance which reveals

Basque garau - seed, antzu - dried

so Franklin's garavances were probably dried seeds and had no direct
association with chick peas
Peter Dy
2005-06-22 09:35:45 UTC
Permalink
Peter> Soy milk is very easy to make. You soak dried soy beans.
Peter> You put the beans in a blender with water and blend until
Peter> the beans are well ground up. You that pour that mixture
Peter> through a cheesecloth to get rid of the ground beans. Then
Peter> you cook the milk (you need to cook it cause raw soy has
Peter> something bad about it--not gonna look it up right now what
Peter> that exactly was).

The raw soya milk has an unpleasant smell -- a bit like grass. (You
can smell grass easily on a grass ground when the grass has just been
trimmed.)


*Found what I was talking about. Raw soy contains trypsin inhibitors, which
prevent the digestion of certain proteins. That's why it should be cooked.

http://www.silkissoy.com/index.php?id=17&cid=1



Peter> Well, after you cook it for like 5 minutes, it takes on an
Peter> interesting "sticky" texture.

Sticky? I don't think so. We sometimes use soya beans to make soups,
and they aren't thick nor sticky.

However, we usually make soya milk for drinking (not for bean curds)
by adding sugar. The sugar makes the solution sticky.


*No, no. I put sticky in quotes for a reason. Of course the liquid is not
sticky. But especially homemade (or well-made store brand) soy milk has a
sorta clingy nature to it when it's in your mouth. Hard to describe. In
any case, "clinginess" that made me guess that not much gypsum was needed
for coagulation. That, and also the fact you mentioned that soy milk so
easily forms a skin.

Peter
Lee Sau Dan
2005-06-22 14:56:48 UTC
Permalink
Peter> *No, no. I put sticky in quotes for a reason. Of course
Peter> the liquid is not sticky. But especially homemade (or
Peter> well-made store brand) soy milk has a sorta clingy nature
Peter> to it when it's in your mouth. Hard to describe.

I see. Because it's highly concentrated (= not dilute).


Peter> In any case, "clinginess" that made me guess that not much
Peter> gypsum was needed for coagulation. That, and also the fact
Peter> you mentioned that soy milk so easily forms a skin.

So, it does make sense to call it soya *milk*. It resembles milk in
many aspects!
--
Lee Sau Dan 李守敦 ~{@nJX6X~}

E-mail: ***@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee
noesy_parker
2005-06-22 17:21:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Dy
*Found what I was talking about. Raw soy contains trypsin inhibitors,
which prevent the digestion of certain proteins. That's why it should
be cooked.
http://www.silkissoy.com/index.php?id=17&cid=1
Tofu also contains all kinds of stuff such as phytoestrogens which you
don't want too much of. The webpage above is rather dismissive of the
potential problem caused by phytoestrogens, but there has been at least a
recorded case of deformed genital in a boy whose mother ate too much tofu
and other soy bean products, and a link between vegetarianism (and
therefore high intake of phytoestrogens) and certain genital abnormality
has been noted -


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?
cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10619956&query_hl=13

same as

http://makeashorterlink.com/?Q1FF51E4B
Peter Dy
2005-06-21 06:49:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dylan Sung
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by david
Post by Dylan Sung
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lee Sau Dan
Where does this Arabic name come from? What was Quanzhou called?
zayt-un is 'olive'
zaytu:n is "olive" (collective), sing zaytu:na(t) olive (tree or fruit)
On a different tangent, can you tell me why sultana (a dried black grape) is
called that, when she ought to be a sultan's wife?
Dyl.
On yet another tangent, why was Franklin thinking of making tofu out of
garbanzos instead of soy beans?
Were soybeans available in 18th-century eastern North America?
The making of tofu involves the soaking of the raw beans, then milling
them to mush and straining out the soya milk, and finally adding a very
pure form of gypsum to help thicken it up during cooking.
Nigiri, the residue of traditionally made sea salt, can also be used as a
coagulating agent. Also, when you say "raw beans," that's actually dried,
raw soybeans. Not the green stuff, just to make that clear.

Peter
Dylan Sung
2005-06-21 07:29:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Dy
Post by Dylan Sung
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by david
Post by Dylan Sung
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lee Sau Dan
Where does this Arabic name come from? What was Quanzhou called?
zayt-un is 'olive'
zaytu:n is "olive" (collective), sing zaytu:na(t) olive (tree or fruit)
On a different tangent, can you tell me why sultana (a dried black grape) is
called that, when she ought to be a sultan's wife?
Dyl.
On yet another tangent, why was Franklin thinking of making tofu out of
garbanzos instead of soy beans?
Were soybeans available in 18th-century eastern North America?
The making of tofu involves the soaking of the raw beans, then milling
them to mush and straining out the soya milk, and finally adding a very
pure form of gypsum to help thicken it up during cooking.
Nigiri, the residue of traditionally made sea salt, can also be used as a
coagulating agent. Also, when you say "raw beans," that's actually dried,
raw soybeans. Not the green stuff, just to make that clear.
Yes, I should have said uncooked soaked soyabeans, rather than raw - was
thinking in Chinese when I wrote that /saN33 vON11 t'Eu53/ .... You're also
right when you said elsewhere only a small amount of /sak5 kau33/ (literally
stone paste, ie. gypsum) was needed.

Dyl.
Horace LaBadie
2005-06-20 20:41:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by david
Post by Dylan Sung
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lee Sau Dan
Where does this Arabic name come from? What was Quanzhou called?
zayt-un is 'olive'
zaytu:n is "olive" (collective), sing zaytu:na(t) olive (tree or fruit)
On a different tangent, can you tell me why sultana (a dried black grape) is
called that, when she ought to be a sultan's wife?
Dyl.
On yet another tangent, why was Franklin thinking of making tofu out of
garbanzos instead of soy beans?
Were soybeans available in 18th-century eastern North America?
Available to the extent that Samuel Bowen of Georgia obtained a crown
patent in 1767 to make food products from soybeans in America.


<http://www.nsrl.uiuc.edu/aboutsoy/history_introNA4.html>

HWL
david
2005-06-20 20:53:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by david
Post by Dylan Sung
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lee Sau Dan
Where does this Arabic name come from? What was Quanzhou called?
zayt-un is 'olive'
zaytu:n is "olive" (collective), sing zaytu:na(t) olive (tree or fruit)
On a different tangent, can you tell me why sultana (a dried black grape) is
called that, when she ought to be a sultan's wife?
Dyl.
On yet another tangent, why was Franklin thinking of making tofu out of
garbanzos instead of soy beans?
Were soybeans available in 18th-century eastern North America?
Yes

http://www.nsrl.uiuc.edu/aboutsoy/history2.html

Another early introduction of soybeans to North America was by Benjamin
Franklin. In 1770, he sent seeds from London to the botanist John
Bartram who most probably planted them in his garden which was situated
on the west bank of the Schuykill River below Philadelphia.

also

Hymowitz, T. and J. R. Harlan. 1983. Introduction of soybean to North
America by Samuel Bowen in 1765. Econ. Bot. 37:371-379.
Peter T. Daniels
2005-06-20 21:42:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by david
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by david
Post by Dylan Sung
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lee Sau Dan
Where does this Arabic name come from? What was Quanzhou called?
zayt-un is 'olive'
zaytu:n is "olive" (collective), sing zaytu:na(t) olive (tree or fruit)
On a different tangent, can you tell me why sultana (a dried black grape) is
called that, when she ought to be a sultan's wife?
On yet another tangent, why was Franklin thinking of making tofu out of
garbanzos instead of soy beans?
Were soybeans available in 18th-century eastern North America?
Yes
http://www.nsrl.uiuc.edu/aboutsoy/history2.html
Another early introduction of soybeans to North America was by Benjamin
Franklin. In 1770, he sent seeds from London to the botanist John
Bartram who most probably planted them in his garden which was situated
on the west bank of the Schuykill River below Philadelphia.
also
Hymowitz, T. and J. R. Harlan. 1983. Introduction of soybean to North
America by Samuel Bowen in 1765. Econ. Bot. 37:371-379.
Then, why was Frankin thinking of making tofu out of chickpeas instead
of soybeans?
--
Peter T. Daniels ***@att.net
Horace LaBadie
2005-06-20 22:01:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by david
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by david
Post by Dylan Sung
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lee Sau Dan
Where does this Arabic name come from? What was Quanzhou called?
zayt-un is 'olive'
zaytu:n is "olive" (collective), sing zaytu:na(t) olive (tree or fruit)
On a different tangent, can you tell me why sultana (a dried black grape) is
called that, when she ought to be a sultan's wife?
On yet another tangent, why was Franklin thinking of making tofu out of
garbanzos instead of soy beans?
Were soybeans available in 18th-century eastern North America?
Yes
http://www.nsrl.uiuc.edu/aboutsoy/history2.html
Another early introduction of soybeans to North America was by Benjamin
Franklin. In 1770, he sent seeds from London to the botanist John
Bartram who most probably planted them in his garden which was situated
on the west bank of the Schuykill River below Philadelphia.
also
Hymowitz, T. and J. R. Harlan. 1983. Introduction of soybean to North
America by Samuel Bowen in 1765. Econ. Bot. 37:371-379.
Then, why was Frankin thinking of making tofu out of chickpeas instead
of soybeans?
A simple mistake by Franklin, or the then rather common practice, even
among those of a scientific turn of mind, of applying names willy-nilly
to things based simply on the external resemblance. How many fruits were
commonly called apples that had no relationship to the true genus malus?

HWL
Yusuf B Gursey
2005-06-20 21:10:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dylan Sung
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lee Sau Dan
Where does this Arabic name come from? What was Quanzhou called?
zayt-un is 'olive'
zaytu:n is "olive" (collective), sing zaytu:na(t) olive (tree or fruit)
On a different tangent, can you tell me why sultana (a dried black grape) is
called that, when she ought to be a sultan's wife?
apaprently the grapes came from Turkey during Ottoman times, so it
refers to the Ottoman Sultan (perhaps an interpretation of sultani^
"pertaining to the Sultan)
Post by Dylan Sung
Dyl.
Tak To
2005-06-19 04:19:58 UTC
Permalink
Dylan Sung <***@pacific.net.hk> wrote:
DS> I was thinking historically, early trade with Macau
DS> happened earlier, being on the coast, rather than Guangzhou
DS> which is further inland.

Lee Sau Dan wrote:
LSD> Yeah. Europeans established trade with Macau more than 5 hundred
LSD> years ago. Trade with Canton was established for only 2 centuries.
LSD> Hong Kong came even later into the picture.

No, Macau was merely a way station to Canton, where the main
port was. Macau's only importance was that foreigners were
allowed to reside there.

----- -----

DS> Moreover, Macau has been trading since the Ming dynasty,

LSD> Chuan2zhou1 used to be considered the world's biggest port -- together
LSD> with port Alexander in the West -- during the Ming dynasty (or
LSD> earlier?).

A bit earlier. Quan2zhou1's heydays was from late Song (mid 12th
century) through early Ming (mid 15th century), with the peak in Yuan.

LSD> The big Chinese seafarer Zheng2cheng2gong1

Zheng4 He2.

LSD> of the Ming
LSD> dynasty -- the one who is now suspected by some people to
LSD> have circumnavigated the globe a few decades earlier than Columbus
LSD> -- also set off from Chuan2zhou1.

----- -----

LSD> Hongkong was more Hakka-speaking back then. But how about Canton?

Cantonese always, of course. :-)

Tak
--
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
r***@yahoo.com
2005-06-20 22:12:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tak To
DS> I was thinking historically, early trade with Macau
DS> happened earlier, being on the coast, rather than Guangzhou
DS> which is further inland.
LSD> Yeah. Europeans established trade with Macau more than 5 hundred
LSD> years ago. Trade with Canton was established for only 2 centuries.
LSD> Hong Kong came even later into the picture.
No, Macau was merely a way station to Canton, where the main
port was.
Is Bocca Tigris a translation of a Chinese term?
http://www.lcsd.gov.hk/CE/Museum/Arts/textmode/english/collections/23/item2311.html
Does the bay called "The Bogue" (the body of water between Hong Kong,
Macao and Canton) have a name in Chinese?
Post by Tak To
Macau's only importance was that foreigners were
allowed to reside there.
About when did worship at the Ama shrine (and other "pagan" shrines in
China) die out?
Lee Sau Dan
2005-06-21 00:00:00 UTC
Permalink
ranjit> Is Bocca Tigris a translation of a Chinese term?
ranjit> http://www.lcsd.gov.hk/CE/Museum/Arts/textmode/english/collections/23/item2311.html
ranjit> Does the bay called "The Bogue" (the body of water between
ranjit> Hong Kong, Macao and Canton) have a name in Chinese?

I can't think of any name for it. Just "the opening of River Pearl".
Macau's only importance was that foreigners were allowed to
reside there.
ranjit> About when did worship at the Ama shrine (and other
ranjit> "pagan" shrines in China) die out?

You mean the Goddess which is worshipped by most fishermen along the
south-eastern Chinese coast? It IS still worshipped. The "makok"
temple is still there in Macau. And there are a couple of "tinhau"
temples in HK, too. They should be for the same Goddess.
--
Lee Sau Dan 李守敦 ~{@nJX6X~}

E-mail: ***@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee
Dylan Sung
2005-06-21 06:08:08 UTC
Permalink
"Lee Sau Dan" <***@informatik.uni-freiburg.de> wrote in message news:***@informatik.uni-freiburg.de...
LSD>>>>> "ranjit" == ranjit ***@yahoo com <***@yahoo.com>
writes:
LSD>
LSD> ranjit> Is Bocca Tigris a translation of a Chinese term?
LSD> ranjit>
http://www.lcsd.gov.hk/CE/Museum/Arts/textmode/english/collections/23/item2311.html
LSD> ranjit> Does the bay called "The Bogue" (the body of water between
LSD> ranjit> Hong Kong, Macao and Canton) have a name in Chinese?
LSD>
LSD>I can't think of any name for it. Just "the opening of River Pearl".
LSD>
LSD>
LSD> >> Macau's only importance was that foreigners were allowed to
LSD> >> reside there.
LSD>
LSD> ranjit> About when did worship at the Ama shrine (and other
LSD> ranjit> "pagan" shrines in China) die out?
LSD>
LSD>You mean the Goddess which is worshipped by most fishermen along the
LSD>south-eastern Chinese coast? It IS still worshipped. The "makok"
LSD>temple is still there in Macau. And there are a couple of "tinhau"
LSD>temples in HK, too. They should be for the same Goddess.

There are /a33 ma33 NiON11/ temples in Hong Kong, mostly worshipped by the
fisherfolk still. They seem to be turning to Christianity due to all those
shirt & tie evangelical missionaries...

Dyl.
Lee Sau Dan
2005-06-21 15:05:25 UTC
Permalink
Dylan> There are /a33 ma33 NiON11/ temples in Hong Kong, mostly
Dylan> worshipped by the fisherfolk still. They seem to be turning
Dylan> to Christianity due to all those shirt & tie evangelical
Dylan> missionaries...

I've also seen such missionaries in Germany. You know, Germans
usually draw quite casually, and such missionaries look so formal that
they're quite eye-catching.

What's the name for these people? My friend told me that they only
send young men to do the preaching. Is that true?
--
Lee Sau Dan 李守敦 ~{@nJX6X~}

E-mail: ***@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee
Dylan Sung
2005-06-21 20:18:43 UTC
Permalink
"Lee Sau Dan" <***@informatik.uni-freiburg.de> wrote in message news:***@informatik.uni-freiburg.de...
LSD>>>>> "Dylan" == Dylan Sung <***@pacific.net.hk> writes:
LSD>
LSD> Dylan> There are /a33 ma33 NiON11/ temples in Hong Kong, mostly
LSD> Dylan> worshipped by the fisherfolk still. They seem to be turning
LSD> Dylan> to Christianity due to all those shirt & tie evangelical
LSD> Dylan> missionaries...
LSD>
LSD>I've also seen such missionaries in Germany. You know, Germans
LSD>usually draw quite casually, and such missionaries look so formal that
LSD>they're quite eye-catching.
LSD>
LSD>What's the name for these people? My friend told me that they only
LSD>send young men to do the preaching. Is that true?

I've only seen young men, they go around in pairs, probably for protection,
so they don't a good seeing to. I don't know what they're called, but one
word is /muk3 su33/ in Hakka (literally shepherd).

Dyl.
David Wright Sr.
2005-06-22 00:05:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lee Sau Dan
I've also seen such missionaries in Germany. You know, Germans
usually draw quite casually, and such missionaries look so formal that
they're quite eye-catching.
What's the name for these people? My friend told me that they only
send young men to do the preaching. Is that true?
Sounds like the Mormons.
--
David Wright Sr.

To find the end of Middle English, you discover the exact date and
time the Great Vowel Shift took place (the morning of May 5, 1450,
at some time between neenuh fiftehn and nahyn twenty-fahyv).
Kevin Wald
Lee Sau Dan
2005-06-22 14:47:07 UTC
Permalink
I've also seen such missionaries in Germany. You know, Germans
usually draw quite casually, and such missionaries look so
formal that they're quite eye-catching.
What's the name for these people? My friend told me that they
only send young men to do the preaching. Is that true?
David> Sounds like the Mormons.

Oh! Yeah!


But what's the meaning of "mormon"? (The Cantonese translation is
quite funny.)
--
Lee Sau Dan 李守敦 ~{@nJX6X~}

E-mail: ***@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee
Peter T. Daniels
2005-06-22 16:32:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lee Sau Dan
I've also seen such missionaries in Germany. You know, Germans
usually draw quite casually, and such missionaries look so
formal that they're quite eye-catching.
What's the name for these people? My friend told me that they
only send young men to do the preaching. Is that true?
David> Sounds like the Mormons.
Oh! Yeah!
But what's the meaning of "mormon"? (The Cantonese translation is
quite funny.)
It's the nickname for members of the Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter-Day Saints; their scripture is the Book of Mormon, and Mormon is
a character who appears in it. Their scriptures were revealed to Joseph
Smith, in upstate New York early in the 19th century, engraved on golden
plates, from which he translated them (into pseudo-Jacobean English).
--
Peter T. Daniels ***@att.net
Nathan
2005-06-22 16:25:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Wright Sr.
Post by Lee Sau Dan
I've also seen such missionaries in Germany. You know, Germans
usually draw quite casually, and such missionaries look so formal that
they're quite eye-catching.
What's the name for these people? My friend told me that they only
send young men to do the preaching. Is that true?
Sounds like the Mormons.
If you do mean the Mormons (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day
Saints), then the answer is no. Although most of their missionaries are
young single men 19-25, they also send some young single women, elderly
married couples, and elderly single women.

ObLang: When Mormon missionaries have to learn a second language for
their mission, the results are very interesting. They get 2 months of
intensive training, then they're sent to their field of labor with a
more experienced companion, who may not even share their native tongue.
It's quite the experiment in immersion. One interesting phenomenon
is the language mixing that frequently results. A good example is
"Mormon Missionary Spanglish", using mostly Spanish vocabulary with a
good deal of English morphology.
Geoff
2005-06-22 02:37:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lee Sau Dan
Dylan> There are /a33 ma33 NiON11/ temples in Hong Kong, mostly
Dylan> worshipped by the fisherfolk still. They seem to be turning
Dylan> to Christianity due to all those shirt & tie evangelical
Dylan> missionaries...
I've also seen such missionaries in Germany. You know, Germans
usually draw quite casually, and such missionaries look so formal that
they're quite eye-catching.
What's the name for these people? My friend told me that they only
send young men to do the preaching. Is that true?
In HK, I used to see pairs of young Mormons in their white shirts, ties,
and engraved plastic name tags labelled "Elder X". Mormonism was, in my
time there, colloquially called moh1 moon4 gaau3 (Mdn mo2 men2 jiao4)-
魔門教 - the religion of the Devil's Door.
Tak To
2005-06-22 04:22:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Geoff
In HK, I used to see pairs of young Mormons in their white shirts,
ties, and engraved plastic name tags labelled "Elder X". Mormonism
was, in my time there, colloquially called moh1 moon4 gaau3 (Mdn
mo2 men2 jiao4)- 魔門教 - the religion of the Devil's Door.
A nice twist of 摩門教。

When I was a kid, for a long time I thought they were called 摸門教
("touch door religion"; homophonic to the above) because of
their door-to-door missionary effort.

Tak
--
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
Tak To
2005-06-21 18:51:45 UTC
Permalink
ranjit ***@yahoo com <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
rm> Is Bocca Tigris a translation of a Chinese term?
rm> http://www.lcsd.gov.hk/CE/Museum/Arts/textmode/english/collections/23/item2311.html

Yes. It was 虎門 <hu3 men2> (Tiger's Gate) in Chinese.

rm> Does the bay called "The Bogue" (the body of water between
rm> Hong Kong, Macao and Canton) have a name in Chinese?

The Bogue is the same as Bocca Tigris, a narrow spot at the
estuary of the Pearl River, roughly midway between Canton
and Hong Kong.

Lee Sau Dan wrote:
LSD> I can't think of any name for it. Just "the opening of
LSD> River Pearl".

Technically, that's the entire Pearl River. Canton sits at
the confluence of the West River (西江 <si1 jiang1>) and
North River (北江 <bei3 jiang1>, which merge to form the Pearl
River. East River (東江 <dong1 jiang1>) joins slight south/east
of Canton, and Bocca Tigris south of that. Hong Kong and
Macau sit respectively at the east and west tip of the
estuary/bay.

The uppper part of the Pearl River before Bocca Tigris is also
called 獅子洋 <shi1zi yang2> -- <shi1zi being "lion", and
<yang2> refers to a piece of water without a specific boundary.
(<yang2> can also mean "ocean".) The body of water at the end
of the estuary between Hong Kong and Macau is also called
零丁洋 <ling2ding1 yang2> -- "solitary ~".

----- -----
rm> About when did worship at the Ama shrine (and other
rm> "pagan" shrines in China) die out?

LSD> You mean the Goddess which is worshipped by most fishermen
LSD> along the south-eastern Chinese coast? It IS still
LSD> worshipped. The "makok" temple is still there in Macau.

"Makok" short for <ma55 dzou35 kok3> 媽祖閣, <ma1zu3 ge2> in
Mandarin. <Ma1zu3> is the name of the goddess.

LSD> And there are a couple of "tinhau" temples in HK, too.
LSD> They should be for the same Goddess.

<tin55 hou22>, 天后 <tian1hou4> in Mandarin, meaning "Celestral
Queen".

Similar temples exists all along the coast of Guangdong and
Fujian to Taiwan. It is only "stopped" because the Communist
government banned it for several decades. These temples are
being revived, many of them becoming tourist attractions.

Tak
--
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
Lee Sau Dan
2005-06-22 00:03:54 UTC
Permalink
rm> Does the bay called "The Bogue" (the body of water between
rm> Hong Kong, Macao and Canton) have a name in Chinese?

Tak> The Bogue is the same as Bocca Tigris, a narrow spot at the
Tak> estuary of the Pearl River, roughly midway between Canton and
Tak> Hong Kong.

Oh! You mean the "Gate of Tiger"? There is now a big bridge there
crossing the river.



Tak> Similar temples exists all along the coast of Guangdong and
Tak> Fujian to Taiwan. It is only "stopped" because the Communist
Tak> government banned it for several decades.

I see. He was talking about the ban by the Communist government.

But these traditions are well kept in non-Communist places: Macau, HK,
Taiwan. (Maybe, they have kept that too in S.E. Asia.)


Tak> These temples are being revived, many of them becoming
Tak> tourist attractions.

Sigh... A broken vase pieced together again with glue. And we can
pretend that the cracks are gone because of some magic glue?
--
Lee Sau Dan 李守敦 ~{@nJX6X~}

E-mail: ***@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee
Tak To
2005-06-19 03:51:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dylan Sung
I was thinking historically, early trade with Macau happened
earlier, being on the coast, rather than Guangzhou which is
further inland.
Canton (Guangzhou) was always the main port; Macau was merely
where the foreigners were allowed to reside. The trading houses
were all in Canton.
Post by Dylan Sung
Moreover, Macau has been trading since the
Ming dynasty,
Canton has been trading since Sui (6th Century).
Post by Dylan Sung
and Hong Kong was only important from the reign
of Queen Victoria c.1840 onwards.
Yes.
Post by Dylan Sung
Ben Franklin was active in
the century previous to that, so Macau is a better candidate.
Were the Cantonese really that populous in HK then? At least
Macau is Cantonese speaking... Then again, romanisations are
sometimes dodgy.
The first _American_ ship to arrive at China was the "Empress
of China", in 1784. Of course there were British ships run
by the colonists before that.

Tak
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Lee Sau Dan
2005-06-19 10:16:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lee Sau Dan
Moreover, Macau has been trading since the Ming dynasty,
Tak> Canton has been trading since Sui (6th Century).

Wow! Even before then Tang dynasty. That's impressive! But I find
it a bit strange. Geographically, Canton is not right beside the sea.
Ships need to go into the Pearl river before getting to Canton. How
come cities at more convenient locations (e.g. Macau) didn't emerge
as a major trading port until very lately?
--
Lee Sau Dan 李守敦 ~{@nJX6X~}

E-mail: ***@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee
Tak To
2005-06-20 16:23:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tak To
Canton has been trading since Sui (6th Century).
Wow! Even before then Tang dynasty. That's impressive! But I find
it a bit strange. Geographically, Canton is not right beside the sea.
Ships need to go into the Pearl river before getting to Canton. How
come cities at more convenient locations (e.g. Macau) didn't emerge
as a major trading port until very lately?
Covenience to the foreign shippers is not the only factor in
determining the place of trade. The convenience of the domestic
shippers, the security of the place (from the domestic government's
point of view), etc have to be considered as well. And one needs
a fairly big city to finance and support all the middlemen involved.

The history of Macau as a port city is quite differnt from that
of Hong Kong. The Hong Kong colony has a much better port and
far more land. Besides, trade volume was smaller and Chinese
trade policy much less favorable when the Portugese first had
Macau. That the British made Hong Kong a free port that allows
ships of all nations was also a major factor.

Tak
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