Peter T. Daniels wrote...
Post by Peter T. DanielsPeter T. Daniels wrote...
Post by Peter T. DanielsPost by Paul J KrihaPost by Yusuf B Gurseypolitical sensitivities? the origin of nemets is not very flattering.
No, Yusuf, the word "Ne^mec" is not a derogatory term and
it wasn't invented as such some 15 centuries ago.
The word being unflattering is just a recent invention (within
the last 50 years or so) by, I suspect, English speakers.
In English you have "mute" confused with "dumb/silly".
There is not such semantic overlap in W.Slavic languages.
"Ne^mec" = was somebody mute (couldn't speak)
("ne^my'" = mute)
You don't think being called 'speechless ones' is unflattering?
They were not called 'speechless ones', they were called "Nemci".
You keep drawing conclusions from "mute" and what associations
it gives you in English. "Mute" is the best E. approximation but it
is still just an approximation of the 2000 year old meaning.
"Nemci" were people who were not speaking understandable
i.e. slavic language.
How is it not "unflattering" to be known as "The Ununderstandables
Because They Can't Talk Right Ones"?
I wouldn't have a clue.
I have never heard the name "The Ununderstandables Because
They Can't Talk Right Ones".
I thought we were talking about the name "Nemci" of which
"mute" or "non-speaker" although the closest are still only
approximate translations. You seem to believe to be able to
decide which names are "unflattering" and which ones are not.
And do that retrospectively thousand of years into the past.
Because they seem to be so? Today?
Most often the names are unflattering or insulting when
they are used as such, not because they on the surface look
as such to an English speaker.
Is "Samoyeds" unflattering?
Why have the Germans decided "Tschechei" was insulting
and "Tschechien" wasn't? What really mattered was how it
was used and by whom.
Is "Rus" unflattering? Why should it be.
Considering Cz "rus"=cockroach? Still it's not.
When the Slavic tribes settled in Central Europe they
called Lusatians "Luzicti Srbove" because Lusatians
said they lived in marshy "luhy", they called Poles "Polaci"
because they thought they lived in flatland fields, "pole";
"Dolani" lived in "doliny"; "Horaci" lived in "hory", and so on
and so on. Then they came across people whom they didn't
understand at all (at first they were probably Kelts). So they
called them Non-speakers which was the most obvious
descriptive name they could think of.
Post by Peter T. DanielsWhether I or you decide to think of it as unflattering now,
2000 years later, is completely and utterly irrelevant.
The fact is that it has not been documented to have been
used as an insult. Neither do I remember any German
ever complaining about it. At the time when the word was
originally coined it was an obvious one to make and not
so long later it's original meaning was forgotten.
Provide your evidence that that epithet was not meant unkindly.
I spent the first 26 years of my life growing up in Bohemia.
I never heard a person use the name in a serious discussion
in any derogatory manner.
What is your evidence? Have you ever come accross
a German who would think it was an insulting name?
Post by Peter T. DanielsSupport
your claim with evidence from cultures around the world.
Eh?
It was your claim, not mine.
Post by Peter T. DanielsThe Germans call Czechs Bohemians. Would you find that
name unflattering too?
Um, don't they call them something like "Böhmisch"?
Check.
Post by Peter T. Daniels"Bohemian" is English, referring to a part of Czechia, and since at
least the middle of the 19th century it has been used, in French and
English at least, but apparently not Italian (or Puccini's opera would't
have a French title) for something like what would later be called in
English "beatnik" or "hippie."
In English I have this book title (a little bit older ref):
The hiftorie of BOHEMIA the first parte defcribing the covntrye
scitvation, climate, commodities; the name and nature of the
people and compendiovsly continvi~g the Historie from the
begining of the Nation to their firft Christian Prince about
the yeare of Christ 990.
The book was written in 1619-1620.
The origins of the name "Bohemia" are much older.
The Roman Latin name Boiihomene was the home of Boii.
Boii was a Celtic nation never conquered by Romans.
Post by Peter T. DanielsIs that usage based on some perceived characteristic of Bohemians?
The word "boheme" (with lowercase b) was probably coined
in Paris. Some of the gypsy wanderers when asked said
they came from Bohemia.
Post by Peter T. DanielsPost by Peter T. DanielsThat saying that what comes out of their mouths isn't
language is a compliment?
That is not what it says.
Post by Peter T. DanielsHow is it different from Gk. "barbarian"?
Intent v. description ?
What evidence do you have for the "intent" of Slavs 2000 years ago?
I don't have any 2000 years old evidence. The word sounds
and feels descriptive today. The Slavic meaning of the word
probably hasn't changed. Occam's razor says that unless you
have evidence to the contrary we can consider the word
descriptive as it has been since the S. languages went to print.
Post by Peter T. DanielsThere aren't even any Slavic texts for 1000 years after that.
If I have an intent to insult I may insult you even with
"beautiful" words not on your blacklist. The term
would be insulting because it was meant to be so
and because the way it was used.
If I have a need to come up with a simple short descriptive
name for a previously unknown language speaker I
choose a simple and short descriptive name. I may run
the risk of having my choice questioned some 2000 years
later by a total stranger and foreign speaker. There are
many other names in this category of "non-speaker",
"stranger", e.t.c, such as Welsh, Valachian.
How different is it from Gk. "barbarian"? It's obvious.
I am surprised you needed to ask.
"barbar" was (probably) made up to insult. Throughout
the history "barbar" was _consistently_ used to insult,
belittle, and mock while "Nemec" or "Nemci" was not.
How do you know that?
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