Discussion:
On Translating "Uncleftish Beholding"
(too old to reply)
Quadibloc
2009-03-01 01:09:39 UTC
Permalink
For those who may not have heard of it, Uncleftish Beholding is an
essay by science-fiction writer Poul Anderson. Basically, it is a
short popular article about atomic energy which is rendered in a
modified form of English, in which all words containing Latin or Greek
roots are replaced with words based on Germanic roots but in a form
and spelling intelligible to English speakers.

Thus, hydrogen becomes waterstuff, oxygen becomes sourstuff, and the
Periodic Table of the Elements becomes the "roundaround board of the
firststuffs".

The thought crossed my mind - could it be translated into other
languages? I had a specific other language in mind into which it seems
to me that it could not be translated.

But first: could it be translated into German, or Swedish, or
Icelandic? It might seem as if it couldn't; after all, in German,
hydrogen already is Wasserstoff and oxygen already is Sauerstoff. But
while _some_ words that are made from Latin and Greek in English are
still made from native roots in those countries not having experienced
the Norman Conquest, the vocabulary of science and technology is
largely Latin and Greek everywhere.

So the same thing could be done in the modern Germanic languages, but
not as many words would be changed.

Let's give them an Uncleftish Beholding Index of 0.5 to represent
this.

Now, let's move in the other direction. What about French or Spanish
or even Italian? Clearly those languages already use Latin roots for
everything. However, scientific words borrowed from Latin still do
present their roots in a form distinct from that native to French or
Spanish, so these words would still show some change. And there are
still those words which are derived from Greek, which would change to
native roots.

So these languages might receive an Uncleftish Beholding Index of 0.3.

I'm not sure what would happen with Greek. Probably those words in the
international scientific and technical vocabulary that use Latin and
not Greek are borrowed, not changed to Greek roots, and if so, Greek's
UBI would probably be around 0.7.

When it comes to Japanese, things become more complicated. One could
say that Japanese deserves a UBI of 2.

Because while Japanese, with its syllabic kana system of writing, does
borrow foreign words from the West, it had also, previously, borrowed
words from China, which is why the kanji have both a Chinese on-yomi
pronounciation and a native Japanese kun-yomi pronounciation.

So in addition to changing the Latin and Greek roots into native
Japanese roots, one could translate _Uncleftish Beholding_ into
Japanese a *second* way.

The same applies to Korean. Although Korean is written with an
alphabet, the letters of which are combined into decorative forms for
each syllable that resemble Chinese characters, in certain forms of
writing, words borrowed from Chinese occasionally appear, written in
Chinese characters, called _hanja_.

However, if one were to replace words borrowed from Latin and Greek by
new borrowings from Chinese, the Korean reader would likely need a
Chinese dictionary, as the Chinese borrowings are limited in number,
and restricted to a narrow range of topics, unlike the Japanese case
where, as with Latin and Greek borrowings in English, the Chinese
borrowings provide a relatively complete set of nouns and verbs. So my
suspicion is that Korean has a UBI of 1.1.

An essay on atomic theory in Chinese, however, would *already* be a
lot like _Uncleftish Beholding_ without any artificial manipulation.
This is because Chinese almost never borrows foreign words, and
already renders virtually all of its scientific and technical
vocabulary by loan-translations instead. So translating Uncleftish
Beholding into Chinese is something like explaining water to a fish.

Or at least so it seems to me, based on my limited knowledge of these
matters. Comments and corrections are welcomed.

John Savard
Carl Taylor
2009-03-01 01:29:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
For those who may not have heard of it, Uncleftish Beholding is an
essay by science-fiction writer Poul Anderson. Basically, it is a
short popular article about atomic energy which is rendered in a
modified form of English, in which all words containing Latin or Greek
roots are replaced with words based on Germanic roots but in a form
and spelling intelligible to English speakers.
Thus, hydrogen becomes waterstuff, oxygen becomes sourstuff, and the
Periodic Table of the Elements becomes the "roundaround board of the
firststuffs".
The thought crossed my mind - could it be translated into other
languages? I had a specific other language in mind into which it seems
to me that it could not be translated.
[...]

As to the translation possibilities for this work you might enjoy,
and gain some ideas or insight, by looking at how Lewis Carroll's
_Jabberwocky_ has been translated into various languages.

http://www.waxdog.com/jabberwocky/translate.html
http://www76.pair.com/keithlim/jabberwocky/translations/index.html


Carl Taylor
Wolfgang Schwanke
2009-03-01 09:45:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
modified form of English, in which all words containing Latin or Greek
roots are replaced with words based on Germanic roots but in a form
and spelling intelligible to English speakers.
Are you sure that "waterstuff" or "bernstonish" are intelligible to
English speakers who don't have a knowledge of Dutch or German (or
Yiddish)?
Post by Quadibloc
But first: could it be translated into German, or Swedish, or
Icelandic? It might seem as if it couldn't; after all, in German,
hydrogen already is Wasserstoff and oxygen already is Sauerstoff. But
while _some_ words that are made from Latin and Greek in English are
still made from native roots in those countries not having experienced
the Norman Conquest, the vocabulary of science and technology is
largely Latin and Greek everywhere.
Yes indeed. In German, the effect would be less surprising because
there would be fewer words to replace, but it could still be done. You
could start looking at some unsuccessful German coinages for some
scientific words suggested by language purists in the 19th century
which are often cited today for ridicule. Popular examples include
"Bernkraft" for electricity ("Elektrizität" in modern German) and
"Zerknalltreibling" for internal combustion engine ("Explosionsmotor"
in modern German). Incidentally, those same purists managed to succeed
with some of their suggestions, such as "Stelldichein" for rendezvous
(used alongside "Rendezvous" in modern German), who therefore do not
appear ridiculous to modern speakers.
Post by Quadibloc
I'm not sure what would happen with Greek. Probably those words in the
international scientific and technical vocabulary that use Latin and
not Greek are borrowed, not changed to Greek roots,
Actually they are, to some extent anyway, because there is some
language purism at work in modern Greek. Latinisms tend to be replaced
by Hellenisms, e.g. "mobile phone" becomes "kinita". Greek-Latin
bastard vocabulary tends to be recoined Greek-only, e.g. "automobile"
becomes "aftokinito". Likewhise the Latin-derived Euro-Cent becomes
"Lepton" in Greek. It's probably easy to lead this principle further,
and presumably some of this work has already been done by Greek
scholars.
--
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http://www.wschwanke.de/ http://www.fotos-aus-der-luft.de/
usenet_20031215 (AT) wschwanke (DOT) de
Jack Campin - bogus address
2009-03-01 10:51:39 UTC
Permalink
there is some language purism at work in modern Greek. [...]
the Latin-derived Euro-Cent becomes "Lepton" in Greek.
Whereas Zimbabwe's representative at the Large Hadron Collider
wants to use "mugabon" to name a particle that decays really,
really fast?

==== j a c k at c a m p i n . m e . u k === <http://www.campin.me.uk> ====
Jack Campin, 11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland == mob 07800 739 557
CD-ROMs and free stuff: Scottish music, food intolerance, and Mac logic fonts
grammatim
2009-03-01 14:38:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wolfgang Schwanke
Post by Quadibloc
modified form of English, in which all words containing Latin or Greek
roots are replaced with words based on Germanic roots but in a form
and spelling intelligible to English speakers.
Are you sure that "waterstuff" or "bernstonish" are intelligible to
English speakers who don't have a knowledge of Dutch or German (or
Yiddish)?
You're quite right; they wouldn't be. (And "stuff" is hardly a
rendition of -gen; the proposed form is nothing but an Englishing of
the German word.)
Quadibloc
2009-03-01 17:45:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by grammatim
Post by Wolfgang Schwanke
Are you sure that "waterstuff" or "bernstonish" are intelligible to
English speakers who don't have a knowledge of Dutch or German (or
Yiddish)?
You're quite right; they wouldn't be. (And "stuff" is hardly a
rendition of -gen; the proposed form is nothing but an Englishing of
the German word.)
It's certainly true that context is needed. But the words were, as you
put it, 'englished' in form.

John Savard
grammatim
2009-03-01 18:20:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by grammatim
Post by Wolfgang Schwanke
Are you sure that "waterstuff" or "bernstonish" are intelligible to
English speakers who don't have a knowledge of Dutch or German (or
Yiddish)?
You're quite right; they wouldn't be. (And "stuff" is hardly a
rendition of -gen; the proposed form is nothing but an Englishing of
the German word.)
It's certainly true that context is needed. But the words were, as you
put it, 'englished' in form.
It is not, however, an Englishization of "hydrogen"; it is an
Englishization of "Wasserstoff." I don't know what "bernstonish" is
supposed to be.
Adam Funk
2009-03-01 20:03:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by grammatim
Post by Quadibloc
Post by grammatim
Post by Wolfgang Schwanke
Are you sure that "waterstuff" or "bernstonish" are intelligible to
English speakers who don't have a knowledge of Dutch or German (or
Yiddish)?
You're quite right; they wouldn't be. (And "stuff" is hardly a
rendition of -gen; the proposed form is nothing but an Englishing of
the German word.)
It's certainly true that context is needed. But the words were, as you
put it, 'englished' in form.
It is not, however, an Englishization of "hydrogen"; it is an
Englishization of "Wasserstoff." I don't know what "bernstonish" is
supposed to be.
"Electrical" (and "bernstonebit" is "electron").


Here's the essay:

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.language.artificial/msg/69250bac6c7cbaff
--
I put bomb in squirrel's briefcase and who gets blown up? Me!
grammatim
2009-03-01 20:44:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by grammatim
Post by Quadibloc
Post by grammatim
Post by Wolfgang Schwanke
Are you sure that "waterstuff" or "bernstonish" are intelligible to
English speakers who don't have a knowledge of Dutch or German (or
Yiddish)?
You're quite right; they wouldn't be. (And "stuff" is hardly a
rendition of -gen; the proposed form is nothing but an Englishing of
the German word.)
It's certainly true that context is needed. But the words were, as you
put it, 'englished' in form.
It is not, however, an Englishization of "hydrogen"; it is an
Englishization of "Wasserstoff." I don't know what "bernstonish" is
supposed to be.
"Electrical" (and "bernstonebit" is "electron").
Where's the "stone" supposed to come from? There's no -lith- in
"electricity."
Post by Adam Funk
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.language.artificial/msg/69250bac6c...
It's in more than one book of introductory readings for linguists.
Brian M. Scott
2009-03-02 14:54:41 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 1 Mar 2009 12:44:56 -0800 (PST), grammatim
[...]
Post by grammatim
Post by Adam Funk
I don't know what "bernstonish" is supposed to be.
"Electrical" (and "bernstonebit" is "electron").
Where's the "stone" supposed to come from?
Bernstone = Bernstein = amber = é:lektron.

[...]

Brian
grammatim
2009-03-02 19:06:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian M. Scott
On Sun, 1 Mar 2009 12:44:56 -0800 (PST), grammatim
[...]
Post by grammatim
Post by Adam Funk
I don't know what "bernstonish" is supposed to be.
"Electrical" (and "bernstonebit" is "electron").
Where's the "stone" supposed to come from?
Bernstone = Bernstein = amber = é:lektron.
You see? Once again, not a calque of the Greek root, as claimed, but
an Englishing of the German word.
Brian M. Scott
2009-03-04 21:06:30 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 2 Mar 2009 11:06:50 -0800 (PST), grammatim
Post by grammatim
Post by Brian M. Scott
On Sun, 1 Mar 2009 12:44:56 -0800 (PST), grammatim
[...]
Post by grammatim
Post by Adam Funk
I don't know what "bernstonish" is supposed to be.
"Electrical" (and "bernstonebit" is "electron").
Where's the "stone" supposed to come from?
Bernstone = Bernstein = amber = é:lektron.
You see? Once again, not a calque of the Greek root, as claimed, but
an Englishing of the German word.
I've been seriously under the weather and reading very
little Usenet for a few days, so I've no idea what's been
claimed. Anyone who actually made such a claim has
obviously rather missed the point of the whole story.

Brian
grammatim
2009-03-04 21:20:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian M. Scott
On Mon, 2 Mar 2009 11:06:50 -0800 (PST), grammatim
Post by grammatim
Post by Brian M. Scott
On Sun, 1 Mar 2009 12:44:56 -0800 (PST), grammatim
[...]
Post by grammatim
Post by Adam Funk
I don't know what "bernstonish" is supposed to be.
"Electrical" (and "bernstonebit" is "electron").
Where's the "stone" supposed to come from?
Bernstone = Bernstein = amber = é:lektron.
You see? Once again, not a calque of the Greek root, as claimed, but
an Englishing of the German word.
I've been seriously under the weather and reading very
little Usenet for a few days, so I've no idea what's been
claimed.  Anyone who actually made such a claim has
obviously rather missed the point of the whole story.
See Quadibloc's opening paragraph in the first posting in this thread.
Adam Funk
2009-03-02 21:20:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by grammatim
Post by Adam Funk
"Electrical" (and "bernstonebit" is "electron").
Where's the "stone" supposed to come from? There's no -lith- in
"electricity."
It's a fudge for "amber" (Greek "elektron").
Post by grammatim
Post by Adam Funk
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.language.artificial/msg/69250bac6c...
It's in more than one book of introductory readings for linguists.
Hey, you asked what "bernstonish" meant, and I was trying to help.
--
Take it? I can't even parse it! [Kibo]
grammatim
2009-03-02 23:36:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by grammatim
Post by Adam Funk
"Electrical" (and "bernstonebit" is "electron").
Where's the "stone" supposed to come from? There's no -lith- in
"electricity."
It's a fudge for "amber" (Greek "elektron").
Post by grammatim
Post by Adam Funk
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.language.artificial/msg/69250bac6c...
It's in more than one book of introductory readings for linguists.
Hey, you asked what "bernstonish" meant, and I was trying to help.
Did I say you weren't?
NigelG
2009-03-01 20:44:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by grammatim
I don't know what "bernstonish" is
supposed to be.
German Bernstein = amber = e^lektron in Greek.

Nigel

--
ScriptMaster language resources (Chinese/Modern & Classical Greek/IPA/
Persian/Russian/Turkish):
http://www.elgin.free-online.co.uk
Wolfgang Schwanke
2009-03-01 21:57:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by grammatim
It is not, however, an Englishization of "hydrogen"; it is an
Englishization of "Wasserstoff." I don't know what "bernstonish" is
supposed to be.
Electrical, from Greek "elektron" = amber (because static electricity
was first observed from rubbing amber), German "Bernstein" = amber, and
this apparently "Englished". To understand this coinage, an English
speaker would have to know the etymology of electricity and the German
word for amber.

Apparently the author was influenced by those German language purists
of the 19th century I mentioned earlier, who suggested "Bernkraft"
(literally "amber craft") for electricity.
--
Damit haben Sie kein Glück in der Bundesrepublik
Wir tanzen lieber Tango bei zärtlicher Musik
(Peter Alexander)
http://www.wschwanke.de/ http://www.fotos-aus-der-luft.de/
usenet_20031215 (AT) wschwanke (DOT) de
grammatim
2009-03-02 00:22:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wolfgang Schwanke
Post by grammatim
It is not, however, an Englishization of "hydrogen"; it is an
Englishization of "Wasserstoff." I don't know what "bernstonish" is
supposed to be.
Electrical, from Greek "elektron" = amber (because static electricity
was first observed from rubbing amber), German "Bernstein" = amber, and
this apparently "Englished". To understand this coinage, an English
speaker would have to know the etymology of electricity and the German
word for amber.
Apparently the author was influenced by those German language purists
of the 19th century I mentioned earlier, who suggested "Bernkraft"
(literally "amber craft") for electricity.
I.e., the author did not know what he was doing. He claimed to be
calquing the Latin or Greek words, but he was actually borrowing the
German equivalents (which are partial calques, or not).
c***@gmail.com
2009-03-02 10:34:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wolfgang Schwanke
Apparently the author was influenced by those German language purists
of the 19th century I mentioned earlier, who suggested "Bernkraft"
(literally "amber craft") for electricity.
Not necessarily. The Icelandic word for electricity, "rafmagn", means
precisely "amber power". Being of Danish extraction, the author might
have taken a comprehensive interest in Scandinavian languages,
including Icelandic purism.
a***@hotmail.com
2009-03-01 22:41:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by grammatim
Post by Quadibloc
Post by grammatim
Post by Wolfgang Schwanke
Are you sure that "waterstuff" or "bernstonish" are intelligible to
English speakers who don't have a knowledge of Dutch or German (or
Yiddish)?
You're quite right; they wouldn't be. (And "stuff" is hardly a
rendition of -gen; the proposed form is nothing but an Englishing of
the German word.)
It's certainly true that context is needed. But the words were, as you
put it, 'englished' in form.
It is not, however, an Englishization of "hydrogen"; it is an
Englishization of "Wasserstoff." I don't know what "bernstonish" is
supposed to be.
Is 'Englishization' a word?

isn't it ugly?

why can't the established 'anglicization' serve the same purpose?
Richard Herring
2009-03-02 10:23:17 UTC
Permalink
In message
Post by a***@hotmail.com
Post by grammatim
Post by Quadibloc
Post by grammatim
Post by Wolfgang Schwanke
Are you sure that "waterstuff" or "bernstonish" are intelligible to
English speakers who don't have a knowledge of Dutch or German (or
Yiddish)?
You're quite right; they wouldn't be. (And "stuff" is hardly a
rendition of -gen; the proposed form is nothing but an Englishing of
the German word.)
It's certainly true that context is needed. But the words were, as you
put it, 'englished' in form.
It is not, however, an Englishization of "hydrogen"; it is an
Englishization of "Wasserstoff." I don't know what "bernstonish" is
supposed to be.
Is 'Englishization' a word?
isn't it ugly?
why can't the established 'anglicization' serve the same purpose?
Because it means something different?

I'd prefer "Englishing" in this context.
--
Richard Herring
a***@hotmail.com
2009-03-02 13:09:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Herring
In message
Post by a***@hotmail.com
Post by grammatim
Post by Quadibloc
Post by grammatim
Post by Wolfgang Schwanke
Are you sure that "waterstuff" or "bernstonish" are intelligible to
English speakers who don't have a knowledge of Dutch or German (or
Yiddish)?
You're quite right; they wouldn't be. (And "stuff" is hardly a
rendition of -gen; the proposed form is nothing but an Englishing of
the German word.)
It's certainly true that context is needed. But the words were, as you
put it, 'englished' in form.
It is not, however, an Englishization of "hydrogen"; it is an
Englishization of "Wasserstoff." I don't know what "bernstonish" is
supposed to be.
Is 'Englishization' a word?
isn't it ugly?
why can't the established 'anglicization' serve the same purpose?
Because it means something different?
I'd prefer "Englishing" in this context.
--
Richard Herring- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Merriam Webster defines 'anglicize' as

1: to make English in quality or characteristics
2: to adapt (a foreign word, name, or phrase) to English usage: as a:
to alter to a characteristic English form, sound, or spelling b: to
convert (a name) to its English equivalent <anglicize Juan as John>

I don't see a need for either Petey's or your ugly coinage for what is
being talked about in this thread.
Richard Herring
2009-03-02 15:12:05 UTC
Permalink
In message
Post by a***@hotmail.com
Post by Richard Herring
In message
Post by a***@hotmail.com
Post by grammatim
Post by Quadibloc
Post by grammatim
Post by Wolfgang Schwanke
Are you sure that "waterstuff" or "bernstonish" are intelligible to
English speakers who don't have a knowledge of Dutch or German (or
Yiddish)?
You're quite right; they wouldn't be. (And "stuff" is hardly a
rendition of -gen; the proposed form is nothing but an Englishing of
the German word.)
It's certainly true that context is needed. But the words were, as you
put it, 'englished' in form.
It is not, however, an Englishization of "hydrogen"; it is an
Englishization of "Wasserstoff." I don't know what "bernstonish" is
supposed to be.
Is 'Englishization' a word?
isn't it ugly?
why can't the established 'anglicization' serve the same purpose?
Because it means something different?
I'd prefer "Englishing" in this context.
Merriam Webster defines 'anglicize' as
1: to make English in quality or characteristics
to alter to a characteristic English form, sound, or spelling b: to
convert (a name) to its English equivalent <anglicize Juan as John>
which leaves it ambiguous as to whether the language or the nation is
intended. Even if you don't care about that, using "anglicize" still
misses the nuance that the Englishing in question isn't the everyday
variety.
Post by a***@hotmail.com
I don't see a need for either Petey's or your ugly coinage for what is
being talked about in this thread.
They are neither his nor mine, as typing either word into Google would
have told you.
--
Richard Herring
Adam Funk
2009-03-02 21:23:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@hotmail.com
Is 'Englishization' a word?
isn't it ugly?
Yes, and it's a half-latinism. "Englishing" is slightly less ugly.
Post by a***@hotmail.com
why can't the established 'anglicization' serve the same purpose?
Because "anglicize" (as well as related words) is either a latinism or
gallicism. (Which is worse?)
--
"It is the role of librarians to keep government running in difficult
times," replied Dramoren. "Librarians are the last line of defence
against chaos." (McMullen 2001)
Quadibloc
2009-03-01 17:44:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wolfgang Schwanke
Actually they are, to some extent anyway, because there is some
language purism at work in modern Greek.
This is interesting. I knew there was some language purism at work in
Greek, but I thought it was solely connected with getting rid of
Turkish loanwords.

Of course, since one Drachma was always divided into 100 Lepta, I'm
not surprised the Greeks are using their *existing* word for "cent";
this I don't credit to language purism.

John Savard
Wolfgang Schwanke
2009-03-01 21:59:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Of course, since one Drachma was always divided into 100 Lepta, I'm
not surprised the Greeks are using their *existing* word for "cent";
this I don't credit to language purism.
Well they could have accepted a word derived from cent, as all other
Euro languages have done.
--
Damit haben Sie kein Glück in der Bundesrepublik
Wir tanzen lieber Tango bei zärtlicher Musik
(Peter Alexander)
http://www.wschwanke.de/ http://www.fotos-aus-der-luft.de/
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Joachim Pense
2009-03-02 05:25:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wolfgang Schwanke
Actually they are, to some extent anyway, because there is some
language purism at work in modern Greek. Latinisms tend to be replaced
by Hellenisms, e.g. "mobile phone" becomes "kinita". Greek-Latin
bastard vocabulary tends to be recoined Greek-only, e.g. "automobile"
becomes "aftokinito". Likewhise the Latin-derived Euro-Cent becomes
"Lepton" in Greek. It's probably easy to lead this principle further,
and presumably some of this work has already been done by Greek
scholars.
Actually, Greek does have some words from Latin, but these are not learned
loans but words that go back to the old Roman Empire. Like σπίτι
(spiti) 'home', which is derived from Latin hospitium.

Joachim
c***@gmail.com
2009-03-02 10:27:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
But first: could it be translated into German, or Swedish, or
Icelandic?
Why yes, if the translator used his/her own coinages instead of those
already in use. For uncleft (atom), the translator could use
ókleyfingur or something like that.
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