Discussion:
Term "Indo-German" for "Indo-European"
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Yusuf B Gursey
2017-04-29 22:21:01 UTC
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An early term for Indo-European was Indo-German. Why "German"? Early form of German nationalism?
Dingbat
2017-04-30 02:07:18 UTC
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Post by Yusuf B Gursey
An early term for Indo-European was Indo-German. Why "German"? Early form of German nationalism?
In German indogermanisch remains the standard scientific term.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages

The term was coined by (you guessed it) German linguists, and since pretty much every linguist was German in that time, no one really suggested another name for a pretty long time. In the German language, Germanen and germanisch refer to the ancient Germanic peoples, not to modern Deutschland. The IE family does stretch from India to Germanic if you are concentrating just on the north-south dimension.
https://www.quora.com/What-does-Indo-German-mean-and-why-it-is-called-Indo-European-today
Peter T. Daniels
2017-04-30 03:09:06 UTC
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Post by Dingbat
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
An early term for Indo-European was Indo-German. Why "German"? Early form of German nationalism?
In German indogermanisch remains the standard scientific term.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages
The term was coined by (you guessed it) German linguists, and since pretty much every linguist was German in that time, no one really suggested another name for a pretty long time. In the German language, Germanen and germanisch refer to the ancient Germanic peoples, not to modern Deutschland. The IE family does stretch from India to Germanic if you are concentrating just on the north-south dimension.
https://www.quora.com/What-does-Indo-German-mean-and-why-it-is-called-Indo-European-today
And Celtic wasn't included in the initial statements by Jones and Bopp.

I don't recall seeing "Indo-German" in English-language publications. Max Mueller
used "Aryan."
Ruud Harmsen
2017-04-30 06:49:57 UTC
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Sat, 29 Apr 2017 20:09:06 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I don't recall seeing "Indo-German" in English-language publications.
Max Mueller used "Aryan.
From
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages#History_of_Indo-European_linguistics
==
Thomas Young first used the term Indo-European in 1813, deriving from
the geographical extremes of the language family: from Western Europe
to North India.[7][8] A synonym is Indo-Germanic (Idg. or IdG.),
specifying the family's southeasternmost and northwesternmost
branches.
==
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Peter T. Daniels
2017-04-30 13:24:49 UTC
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Post by Ruud Harmsen
Sat, 29 Apr 2017 20:09:06 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I don't recall seeing "Indo-German" in English-language publications.
Max Mueller used "Aryan.
From
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages#History_of_Indo-European_linguistics
==
Thomas Young first used the term Indo-European in 1813, deriving from
the geographical extremes of the language family: from Western Europe
to North India.[7][8] A synonym is Indo-Germanic (Idg. or IdG.),
specifying the family's southeasternmost and northwesternmost
branches.
"Indo-Germanic" was seen sometimes. "Indo-German," never. Please respond to
what I write, not to what you think I write.

I'll say it again: at that time, Celtic was not recognized as belonging to the
family. (Bopp's first edition is 1815.)
Ruud Harmsen
2017-04-30 13:59:09 UTC
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Sun, 30 Apr 2017 06:24:49 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Sat, 29 Apr 2017 20:09:06 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I don't recall seeing "Indo-German" in English-language publications.
Max Mueller used "Aryan.
From
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages#History_of_Indo-European_linguistics
==
Thomas Young first used the term Indo-European in 1813, deriving from
the geographical extremes of the language family: from Western Europe
to North India.[7][8] A synonym is Indo-Germanic (Idg. or IdG.),
specifying the family's southeasternmost and northwesternmost
branches.
"Indo-Germanic" was seen sometimes. "Indo-German," never. Please respond to
what I write, not to what you think I write.
I didn't write it to respond to you, but to provide extra evidence to
original poster Yusuf B. Gursey, that his misunderstanding may indeed
lie in the difference between German and Germanic.

Remember that the whole world does not evolve around you.

Remember that we are looking for solutions here, not problems.

Remember that the aim here (my aim, anyway) is increased common
insight and knowledge, not establishing who are winners and who are
losers, which clearly is all _you_ care about.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Peter T. Daniels
2017-04-30 17:38:39 UTC
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Post by Ruud Harmsen
Sun, 30 Apr 2017 06:24:49 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Sat, 29 Apr 2017 20:09:06 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I don't recall seeing "Indo-German" in English-language publications.
Max Mueller used "Aryan.
From
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages#History_of_Indo-European_linguistics
==
Thomas Young first used the term Indo-European in 1813, deriving from
the geographical extremes of the language family: from Western Europe
to North India.[7][8] A synonym is Indo-Germanic (Idg. or IdG.),
specifying the family's southeasternmost and northwesternmost
branches.
"Indo-Germanic" was seen sometimes. "Indo-German," never. Please respond to
what I write, not to what you think I write.
I didn't write it to respond to you, but to provide extra evidence to
original poster Yusuf B. Gursey, that his misunderstanding may indeed
lie in the difference between German and Germanic.
Unfortunately, you replied to _me_, quoting nothing but my statement.

You seem here to have copied into your reply to me, the material that you
earlier deleted from the message I replied to.
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Remember that the whole world does not evolve around you.
?
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Remember that we are looking for solutions here, not problems.
Remember that the aim here (my aim, anyway) is increased common
insight and knowledge, not establishing who are winners and who are
losers, which clearly is all _you_ care about.
False quotations do not further your aim.

My concern is accuracy, which you've shown a singluar absence of in this thread.
Yusuf B Gursey
2017-04-30 17:48:42 UTC
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Post by Ruud Harmsen
Sun, 30 Apr 2017 06:24:49 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Sat, 29 Apr 2017 20:09:06 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I don't recall seeing "Indo-German" in English-language publications.
Max Mueller used "Aryan.
From
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages#History_of_Indo-European_linguistics
==
Thomas Young first used the term Indo-European in 1813, deriving from
the geographical extremes of the language family: from Western Europe
to North India.[7][8] A synonym is Indo-Germanic (Idg. or IdG.),
specifying the family's southeasternmost and northwesternmost
branches.
"Indo-Germanic" was seen sometimes. "Indo-German," never. Please respond to
what I write, not to what you think I write.
I didn't write it to respond to you, but to provide extra evidence to
original poster Yusuf B. Gursey, that his misunderstanding may indeed
lie in the difference between German and Germanic.
Yes. OK. Indeed that is the case.
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Remember that the whole world does not evolve around you.
Remember that we are looking for solutions here, not problems.
Remember that the aim here (my aim, anyway) is increased common
insight and knowledge, not establishing who are winners and who are
losers, which clearly is all _you_ care about.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
DKleinecke
2017-04-30 18:18:15 UTC
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Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Sun, 30 Apr 2017 06:24:49 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Sat, 29 Apr 2017 20:09:06 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I don't recall seeing "Indo-German" in English-language publications.
Max Mueller used "Aryan.
From
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages#History_of_Indo-European_linguistics
==
Thomas Young first used the term Indo-European in 1813, deriving from
the geographical extremes of the language family: from Western Europe
to North India.[7][8] A synonym is Indo-Germanic (Idg. or IdG.),
specifying the family's southeasternmost and northwesternmost
branches.
"Indo-Germanic" was seen sometimes. "Indo-German," never. Please respond to
what I write, not to what you think I write.
I didn't write it to respond to you, but to provide extra evidence to
original poster Yusuf B. Gursey, that his misunderstanding may indeed
lie in the difference between German and Germanic.
Yes. OK. Indeed that is the case.
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Remember that the whole world does not evolve around you.
Remember that we are looking for solutions here, not problems.
Remember that the aim here (my aim, anyway) is increased common
insight and knowledge, not establishing who are winners and who are
losers, which clearly is all _you_ care about.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
I imagined they started with the idea that European languages
were descended from Sanskrit. So they tackled the question of
how Germanic languages (perhaps meaning Gothic) was derived
from Sanskrit. I suspect that exercise cleared their minds to
the extent that they understood that "Sanskrit" meant Vedic
and not Panini. Then they looked at other European languages.
I remain surprised at Bopp's attitude toward Greek because it
only took a few years for the proto-language to turn into what
might have been justly called Indo-Hellenic.

I have never seen Indo-Hellenic used.
Peter T. Daniels
2017-04-30 19:25:27 UTC
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Post by DKleinecke
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Sun, 30 Apr 2017 06:24:49 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Sat, 29 Apr 2017 20:09:06 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I don't recall seeing "Indo-German" in English-language publications.
Max Mueller used "Aryan."
From
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages#History_of_Indo-European_linguistics
==
Thomas Young first used the term Indo-European in 1813, deriving from
the geographical extremes of the language family: from Western Europe
to North India.[7][8] A synonym is Indo-Germanic (Idg. or IdG.),
specifying the family's southeasternmost and northwesternmost
branches.
"Indo-Germanic" was seen sometimes. "Indo-German," never. Please respond to
what I write, not to what you think I write.
I didn't write it to respond to you, but to provide extra evidence to
original poster Yusuf B. Gursey, that his misunderstanding may indeed
lie in the difference between German and Germanic.
Yes. OK. Indeed that is the case.
I imagined they
Who is "they"? Remember, William Jones suggested "sprung from some common
source," not "sprung from Sanskrit."

He never gave any evidence or explanation, he only had the idea.
Post by DKleinecke
started with the idea that European languages
were descended from Sanskrit. So they tackled the question of
how Germanic languages (perhaps meaning Gothic) was derived
from Sanskrit. I suspect that exercise cleared their minds to
the extent that they understood that "Sanskrit" meant Vedic
and not Panini. Then they looked at other European languages.
I remain surprised at Bopp's attitude toward Greek because it
only took a few years for the proto-language to turn into what
might have been justly called Indo-Hellenic.
I have never seen Indo-Hellenic used.
DKleinecke
2017-04-30 20:39:29 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by DKleinecke
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Sun, 30 Apr 2017 06:24:49 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Sat, 29 Apr 2017 20:09:06 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I don't recall seeing "Indo-German" in English-language publications.
Max Mueller used "Aryan."
From
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages#History_of_Indo-European_linguistics
==
Thomas Young first used the term Indo-European in 1813, deriving from
the geographical extremes of the language family: from Western Europe
to North India.[7][8] A synonym is Indo-Germanic (Idg. or IdG.),
specifying the family's southeasternmost and northwesternmost
branches.
"Indo-Germanic" was seen sometimes. "Indo-German," never. Please respond to
what I write, not to what you think I write.
I didn't write it to respond to you, but to provide extra evidence to
original poster Yusuf B. Gursey, that his misunderstanding may indeed
lie in the difference between German and Germanic.
Yes. OK. Indeed that is the case.
I imagined they
Who is "they"? Remember, William Jones suggested "sprung from some common
source," not "sprung from Sanskrit."
He never gave any evidence or explanation, he only had the idea.
Post by DKleinecke
started with the idea that European languages
were descended from Sanskrit. So they tackled the question of
how Germanic languages (perhaps meaning Gothic) was derived
from Sanskrit. I suspect that exercise cleared their minds to
the extent that they understood that "Sanskrit" meant Vedic
and not Panini. Then they looked at other European languages.
I remain surprised at Bopp's attitude toward Greek because it
only took a few years for the proto-language to turn into what
might have been justly called Indo-Hellenic.
I have never seen Indo-Hellenic used.
I meant whoever followed up on Jones. I know that similar
ideas were already circulating in Europe (Hungarian-Finnish
for example). Jones' wording was cautious but as I understand
it some scholars went all the way to Sanskrit itself. I don't
know whether Jones equated Sanskrit with Panini (and thus
Vedic was a common source) or what. Maybe he never explicated.

I may be wrong in asserting some scholars circa 1800 believed
Gothic was descended from Sanskrit. I have no 1800 evidence
but I do have 2017 evidence right here in River City,
Franz Gnaedinger
2017-05-02 07:21:00 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Who is "they"? Remember, William Jones suggested "sprung from some common
source," not "sprung from Sanskrit."
William Jones located the IE homeland in Greater Iran (Mallory & Adams 2006).
I think he came close. In my opinion the region between the Goebekli Tepe
and Central Asia between 12 000 and 6 000 BP was the Proto-Indo-European belt,
the banks of the Amu Darya were the first IE homeland, centered in the
triangle of Termez and Kundus and Kurgan T'upe, the Uralic steppes east of
the Rha Volga were the second IE homeland, and the Pontic steppes west of
the Rha Volga were the third IE homeland. From there you get along the Danube
into Central Europe, today Germany, from where the term Indo-Germanic might
have come from.

Ruud Harmsen
2017-04-30 13:59:52 UTC
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Sun, 30 Apr 2017 06:24:49 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I'll say it again: at that time, Celtic was not recognized as belonging to the
family. (Bopp's first edition is 1815.)
Does it make much difference? Icelandic is probably more western than
western-most Celtic, i.e. Irish.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
DKleinecke
2017-04-30 16:26:46 UTC
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Post by Ruud Harmsen
Sun, 30 Apr 2017 06:24:49 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I'll say it again: at that time, Celtic was not recognized as belonging to the
family. (Bopp's first edition is 1815.)
Does it make much difference? Icelandic is probably more western than
western-most Celtic, i.e. Irish.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Greenland?
Christian Weisgerber
2017-04-30 16:35:18 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
"Indo-Germanic" was seen sometimes.
I'll say it again: at that time, Celtic was not recognized as belonging to the
family. (Bopp's first edition is 1815.)
I don't see how Celtic would be relevant to the name, since Germanic
is spoken further north and west (Iceland).

More pertinently, Tocharian to the east wasn't known at the time.
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber ***@mips.inka.de
Peter T. Daniels
2017-04-30 17:40:44 UTC
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Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"Indo-Germanic" was seen sometimes.
I'll say it again: at that time, Celtic was not recognized as belonging to the
family. (Bopp's first edition is 1815.)
I don't see how Celtic would be relevant to the name, since Germanic
is spoken further north and west (Iceland).
More pertinently, Tocharian to the east wasn't known at the time.
Going by modern geography, Portugal is east of Ireland, so why not "Indo-Romance"?

They were referring to ancestral "homelands" as they understood them. Iceland
was clearly not the "homeland" of Germanic.
Ruud Harmsen
2017-04-30 21:26:27 UTC
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Sun, 30 Apr 2017 10:40:44 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Going by modern geography, Portugal is east of Ireland, so why not "Indo-Romance"?
Dingle 10.27153°W
Cascais 9°25'W

OK, if you include the Azores.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-05-01 13:52:42 UTC
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Post by Ruud Harmsen
Sun, 30 Apr 2017 10:40:44 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Going by modern geography, Portugal is east of Ireland, so why not "Indo-Romance"?
Dingle 10.27153°W
Cascais 9°25'W
OK, if you include the Azores.
Yes, but where do you stop? France is even further west if you count
Guadeloupe. Your own country further still if you count Aruba.
--
athel
b***@ihug.co.nz
2017-05-01 01:47:15 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Dingbat
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
An early term for Indo-European was Indo-German. Why "German"? Early form of German nationalism?
In German indogermanisch remains the standard scientific term.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages
The term was coined by (you guessed it) German linguists, and since pretty much every linguist was German in that time, no one really suggested another name for a pretty long time. In the German language, Germanen and germanisch refer to the ancient Germanic peoples, not to modern Deutschland. The IE family does stretch from India to Germanic if you are concentrating just on the north-south dimension.
https://www.quora.com/What-does-Indo-German-mean-and-why-it-is-called-Indo-European-today
And Celtic wasn't included in the initial statements by Jones and Bopp.
Actually Jones does mention "the Gothic and the Celtic" as probably
part of the family.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I don't recall seeing "Indo-German" in English-language publications. Max Mueller
used "Aryan."
I don't recall it either. OED has three 19th-century citations of
"Indo-German", along with five of "Indo-Germanic" -- none of them by
anyone well-known.

Their etymological note on the origins of the term (in German) is
perhaps relevant here. The earliest use they find is in Klaproth's
_Asia Polyglotta_ (1823), where "it seems to have been a kind of
abbreviation of the expression (used by him in an earlier work)
‘die grosse Indisch-Medisch-Sclavisch-Germanische Völkerkette...'
naming the two extreme members of the ethnological ‘chain’. When
Celtic was shown to be a still more extreme member of the same series, ‘indogermanisch’ lost its appropriateness, and some scholars tried
to substitute indokeltisch, ‘Indo-Celtic’, in French indo-celtique, while others, as Bopp in his Vergleichende Grammatik, gave preference to the more comprehensive indoeuropäisch,.... But the employment of ‘indogermanisch’
on the title-page of Pott's Etymologische Forschungen auf dem Gebiete der indogermanischen Sprachen (1833–36) popularized this term in Germany, whence under the influence of German textbooks, or of teachers trained in Germany,
it came into English use, and was, in the 19th c., probably more used than ‘Indo-European’.)"

"Indo-European" is slightly older, apparently coined by Thomas Young
("The Last Man Who Knew Everything") in 1813.
Ruud Harmsen
2017-04-30 06:31:07 UTC
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Sat, 29 Apr 2017 19:07:18 -0700 (PDT): Dingbat
Post by Dingbat
In German indogermanisch remains the standard scientific term.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages
Interesting, I had never ever heard of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Zuerius_van_Boxhorn, although he
was Dutch and one of the earliest who noted the connexion between all
those languages.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Ruud Harmsen
2017-04-30 06:47:39 UTC
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Sat, 29 Apr 2017 19:07:18 -0700 (PDT): Dingbat
Post by Dingbat
In the German language, Germanen and germanisch refer to
the ancient Germanic peoples, not to modern Deutschland.
Right:

In English: Dutch, the Netherlands, Holland, Germany, German, Germanic

In German: niederländisch, die Niederlande, Holland, Deutschland,
deutsch, germanisch

In Dutch: Nederlands, Nederland, Holland, Duitsland, Duits, Germaans.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Ruud Harmsen
2017-04-30 06:53:14 UTC
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Post by Ruud Harmsen
Sat, 29 Apr 2017 19:07:18 -0700 (PDT): Dingbat
Post by Dingbat
In the German language, Germanen and germanisch refer to
the ancient Germanic peoples, not to modern Deutschland.
In English: Dutch, the Netherlands, Holland, Germany, German, Germanic
In German: niederländisch, die Niederlande, Holland, Deutschland,
deutsch, germanisch
In Dutch: Nederlands, Nederland, Holland, Duitsland, Duits, Germaans.
In French: néerlandais, les Pays Bas, Hollande, Allemagne, allemand,
germanique.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages#History_of_Indo-European_linguistics
==
A synonym is Indo-Germanic (Idg. or IdG.), specifying the family's
southeasternmost and northwesternmost branches. This first appeared in
French (indo-germanique) in 1810 in the work of Conrad Malte-Brun;
==
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Ruud Harmsen
2017-04-30 06:19:01 UTC
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Sat, 29 Apr 2017 15:21:01 -0700 (PDT): Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
An early term for Indo-European was Indo-German. Why "German"? Early form of German nationalism?
Indo-GermanIC (in Dutch: Indo-Germaans, not Indo-Duits). Germanic
because (not counting colonial spread) the languages range from India
to Iceland. Icelandic is a Germanic language.

I think when the term Info-Germanic was coined, Germany didn't even
exist as a country yet. Although the German language (not to be
confused with Germanic languages, of which English is one) did.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Ruud Harmsen
2017-04-30 06:21:25 UTC
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Post by Ruud Harmsen
Indo-GermanIC (in Dutch: Indo-Germaans, not Indo-Duits). Germanic
because (not counting colonial spread) the languages range from India
to Iceland. Icelandic is a Germanic language.
I think when the term Info-Germanic was coined, Germany didn't even
exist as a country yet. Although the German language (not to be
confused with Germanic languages, of which English is one) did.
Some people write unclearly by using too many parentheses and
routinely covering two topics in any one sentence.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
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