Discussion:
Can [sweeten'd] indicate a weak (or silent) 2nd syllable?
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Hen Hanna
2017-05-19 19:27:46 UTC
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My question is:

Can ['d] instead of [ed] indicate a change in pronunciation?
e.g.
Can [sweeten'd] indicate a weak (or silent) 2nd syllable?


https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%27d

1. (archaic) Traditionally common English past tense indicator,
largely replaced by -ed.
 [quotations ▲]
Shakespeare - Hast thou mark’d the dawn of next?


The quality of mercy is not strain'd,


And therefore is wing'd cupid painted blind:


That never meat sweet-savor'd in thy taste,
Hen Hanna
2017-05-19 19:33:23 UTC
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Post by Hen Hanna
Can ['d] instead of [ed] indicate a change in pronunciation?
e.g.
Can [sweeten'd] indicate a weak (or silent) 2nd syllable?
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%27d
1. (archaic) Traditionally common English past tense indicator,
largely replaced by -ed.
 [quotations ▲]
Shakespeare - Hast thou mark’d the dawn of next?
The quality of mercy is not strain'd,
That never meat sweet-savor'd in thy taste,
Related question (much less urgent)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_His_Coy_Mistress
But at my back I always hear
Time's wingèd chariot hurrying near;

What does the accent mark in the [wingèd] do ?
(to the pronunciation)

Thank you! HH
Peter T. Daniels
2017-05-19 20:17:17 UTC
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Post by Hen Hanna
Post by Hen Hanna
Can ['d] instead of [ed] indicate a change in pronunciation?
e.g.
Can [sweeten'd] indicate a weak (or silent) 2nd syllable?
That's not an example of a change in pronunciation or of a weak (or silent) 2nd syllable.
Post by Hen Hanna
Post by Hen Hanna
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%27d
1. (archaic) Traditionally common English past tense indicator,
largely replaced by -ed.
 [quotations ▲]
Shakespeare - Hast thou mark’d the dawn of next?
The quality of mercy is not strain'd,
That never meat sweet-savor'd in thy taste,
Related question (much less urgent)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_His_Coy_Mistress
But at my back I always hear
Time's wingèd chariot hurrying near;
What does the accent mark in the [wingèd] do ?
(to the pronunciation)
It makes the line scan.

In the early 17th c. (and for a while after), they figured -ed ought to mark a
separate syllable, so they indicated when it didn't by replacing the vowel.

Later on, when the pronunciation of -ed was well known to depend on the preceding
consonant, they could tell you to abnormally pronounce it as a separate syllable.
Hen Hanna
2017-05-20 14:22:52 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Hen Hanna
Post by Hen Hanna
Can ['d] instead of [ed] indicate a change in pronunciation?
e.g.
Can [sweeten'd] indicate a weak (or silent) 2nd syllable?
That's not an example of a change in pronunciation or of a weak (or silent) 2nd syllable.
Post by Hen Hanna
Post by Hen Hanna
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%27d
1. (archaic) Traditionally common English past tense indicator,
largely replaced by -ed.
 [quotations ▲]
Shakespeare - Hast thou mark’d the dawn of next?
The quality of mercy is not strain'd,
That never meat sweet-savor'd in thy taste,
Related question (much less urgent)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_His_Coy_Mistress
But at my back I always hear
Time's wingèd chariot hurrying near;
What does the accent mark in the [wingèd] do ?
(to the pronunciation)
It makes the line scan.
In the early 17th c. (and for a while after), they figured -ed ought to mark a
separate syllable, so they indicated when it didn't by replacing the vowel.
Later on, when the pronunciation of -ed was well known to depend on the preceding
consonant, they could tell you to abnormally pronounce it as a separate syllable.
But at my back I always hear
Time's wingèd chariot hurrying near;

Thank you. Is this how one'd read these lines?

w w w SS w SS-w SS

w SS-w SS-w-w SS-w-w SS
Peter T. Daniels
2017-05-20 14:47:23 UTC
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Post by Hen Hanna
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Hen Hanna
Post by Hen Hanna
Can ['d] instead of [ed] indicate a change in pronunciation?
e.g.
Can [sweeten'd] indicate a weak (or silent) 2nd syllable?
That's not an example of a change in pronunciation or of a weak (or silent) 2nd syllable.
Post by Hen Hanna
Post by Hen Hanna
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%27d
1. (archaic) Traditionally common English past tense indicator,
largely replaced by -ed.
 [quotations ▲]
Shakespeare - Hast thou mark’d the dawn of next?
The quality of mercy is not strain'd,
That never meat sweet-savor'd in thy taste,
Related question (much less urgent)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_His_Coy_Mistress
But at my back I always hear
Time's wingèd chariot hurrying near;
What does the accent mark in the [wingèd] do ?
(to the pronunciation)
It makes the line scan.
In the early 17th c. (and for a while after), they figured -ed ought to mark a
separate syllable, so they indicated when it didn't by replacing the vowel.
Later on, when the pronunciation of -ed was well known to depend on the preceding
consonant, they could tell you to abnormally pronounce it as a separate syllable.
But at my back I always hear
Time's wingèd chariot hurrying near;
Thank you. Is this how one'd read these lines?
w w w SS w SS-w SS
w SS-w SS-w-w SS-w-w SS
????

The scansion is: but AT my BACK i ALways HEAR / time's WINGed CHARyot HURRying NEAR.

The poetry resides in the conflict between the regular iambs and the natural
stresses of the English sentence.

Compare Lear's "Never, never, never, never, never!" It's a perfect line of
iambic pentameter -- but there's not one iamb in it. It reflects the utter
dissolution of the speaker's universe.
Dingbat
2017-05-21 13:39:18 UTC
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Post by Hen Hanna
Can ['d] instead of [ed] indicate a change in pronunciation?
e.g.
Can [sweeten'd] indicate a weak (or silent) 2nd syllable?
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%27d
<sweetn'd> would be an innovation to the typical reader. If you're up to innovative spelling, and n is the syllabic nucleus, why not <sweetnd>?
Post by Hen Hanna
1. (archaic) Traditionally common English past tense indicator,
largely replaced by -ed.
 [quotations ▲]
Shakespeare - Hast thou mark’d the dawn of next?
The quality of mercy is not strain'd,
That never meat sweet-savor'd in thy taste,
Hen Hanna
2017-05-21 16:55:46 UTC
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Post by Dingbat
Post by Hen Hanna
Can ['d] instead of [ed] indicate a change in pronunciation?
e.g.
Can [sweeten'd] indicate a weak (or silent) 2nd syllable?
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%27d
<sweetn'd> would be an innovation to the typical reader. If you're up to innovative spelling, and n is the syllabic nucleus, why not <sweetnd>?
Thank you. I'm trying to make the 2nd syllable of
[sweetened] weak or silent.

Cf. "Mountain" with th' swallow'd (?) 2nd syllable

[sweet'n'd]

__________________

Shakespeare used
[taken] ~104 times, and
[ta'en] ~102 times

He must've thought [ta'en] was 1 syllable ?
http://www.rhymezone.com/r/ss.cgi?q=ta%27en&mode=k
She might have been o'erta'en; and yet she writes, All's Well that Ends Well: III, iv

Fair sir, you are well o'erta'en Merchant of Venice: IV, ii


Moreo'er, how about [o'er'a'en] ? HH
Dingbat
2017-05-21 16:59:56 UTC
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Post by Hen Hanna
Post by Dingbat
Post by Hen Hanna
Can ['d] instead of [ed] indicate a change in pronunciation?
e.g.
Can [sweeten'd] indicate a weak (or silent) 2nd syllable?
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%27d
<sweetn'd> would be an innovation to the typical reader. If you're up to innovative spelling, and n is the syllabic nucleus, why not <sweetnd>?
Thank you. I'm trying to make the 2nd syllable of
[sweetened] weak or silent.
Cf. "Mountain" with th' swallow'd (?) 2nd syllable
[sweet'n'd]
__________________
Shakespeare used
[taken] ~104 times, and
[ta'en] ~102 times
He must've thought [ta'en] was 1 syllable ?
What if he would spell naive as na'iv?
Post by Hen Hanna
http://www.rhymezone.com/r/ss.cgi?q=ta%27en&mode=k
She might have been o'erta'en; and yet she writes, All's Well that Ends Well: III, iv
Fair sir, you are well o'erta'en Merchant of Venice: IV, ii
Moreo'er, how about [o'er'a'en] ? HH
Hen Hanna
2017-05-22 18:52:22 UTC
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Post by Dingbat
Post by Hen Hanna
Post by Dingbat
Post by Hen Hanna
Can ['d] instead of [ed] indicate a change in pronunciation?
e.g.
Can [sweeten'd] indicate a weak (or silent) 2nd syllable?
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%27d
<sweetn'd> would be an innovation to the typical reader. If you're up to innovative spelling, and n is the syllabic nucleus, why not <sweetnd>?
Thank you. I'm trying to make the 2nd syllable of
[sweetened] weak or silent.
Cf. "Mountain" with th' swallow'd (?) 2nd syllable
[sweet'n'd]
__________________
Shakespeare used
[taken] ~104 times, and
[ta'en] ~102 times
He must've thought [ta'en] was 1 syllable ?
What if he would spell naive as na'iv?
http://www.rhymezone.com/r/ss.cgi?q=na%27&mode=k
He didn't , but I 'm still trying to get at the
meaning / significance of [na'iv] ... hints?


https://www.howmanysyllables.com/words/sweetened
How many syllables in sweetened? 2 syllables


I like both "swee'nd" and "moun'n".

I also rem'mbred haering that some ppl in Baltimore
can say "Baltimore" in 1 syllable. HH
Peter T. Daniels
2017-05-22 19:05:57 UTC
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Post by Hen Hanna
Post by Dingbat
Post by Hen Hanna
Post by Dingbat
Post by Hen Hanna
Can ['d] instead of [ed] indicate a change in pronunciation?
e.g.
Can [sweeten'd] indicate a weak (or silent) 2nd syllable?
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%27d
<sweetn'd> would be an innovation to the typical reader. If you're up to innovative spelling, and n is the syllabic nucleus, why not <sweetnd>?
Thank you. I'm trying to make the 2nd syllable of
[sweetened] weak or silent.
Cf. "Mountain" with th' swallow'd (?) 2nd syllable
[sweet'n'd]
__________________
Shakespeare used
[taken] ~104 times, and
[ta'en] ~102 times
He must've thought [ta'en] was 1 syllable ?
No, he knows it's two syllables but had to squash it into one syllable to fit the meter.

You might check how the 206 occurrences are distributed between prose and poetic passages.
Post by Hen Hanna
Post by Dingbat
What if he would spell naive as na'iv?
http://www.rhymezone.com/r/ss.cgi?q=na%27&mode=k
He didn't , but I 'm still trying to get at the
meaning / significance of [na'iv] ... hints?
It's a normal "broad phonetic" or "phonemic" transcription of the English word
"naive," indicating the stress on the second syllable.
DKleinecke
2017-05-22 21:46:04 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Hen Hanna
Post by Dingbat
Post by Hen Hanna
Post by Dingbat
Post by Hen Hanna
Can ['d] instead of [ed] indicate a change in pronunciation?
e.g.
Can [sweeten'd] indicate a weak (or silent) 2nd syllable?
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%27d
<sweetn'd> would be an innovation to the typical reader. If you're up to innovative spelling, and n is the syllabic nucleus, why not <sweetnd>?
Thank you. I'm trying to make the 2nd syllable of
[sweetened] weak or silent.
Cf. "Mountain" with th' swallow'd (?) 2nd syllable
[sweet'n'd]
__________________
Shakespeare used
[taken] ~104 times, and
[ta'en] ~102 times
He must've thought [ta'en] was 1 syllable ?
No, he knows it's two syllables but had to squash it into one syllable to fit the meter.
You might check how the 206 occurrences are distributed between prose and poetic passages.
Post by Hen Hanna
Post by Dingbat
What if he would spell naive as na'iv?
http://www.rhymezone.com/r/ss.cgi?q=na%27&mode=k
He didn't , but I 'm still trying to get at the
meaning / significance of [na'iv] ... hints?
It's a normal "broad phonetic" or "phonemic" transcription of the English word
"naive," indicating the stress on the second syllable.
Seems to me that I pronounce (rarely) "naive" wrong. I would
phonemicize my pronunciation as /nayyiyv/. I am aware that
English isn't supposed to have geminated 'y's but I can clearly
feel both. The accent is on the "-yiyv" even though the first
syllable is very strong for an unaccented syllable.
Peter T. Daniels
2017-05-22 21:51:25 UTC
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Post by DKleinecke
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Hen Hanna
Post by Dingbat
Post by Hen Hanna
Post by Dingbat
Post by Hen Hanna
Can ['d] instead of [ed] indicate a change in pronunciation?
e.g.
Can [sweeten'd] indicate a weak (or silent) 2nd syllable?
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%27d
<sweetn'd> would be an innovation to the typical reader. If you're up to innovative spelling, and n is the syllabic nucleus, why not <sweetnd>?
Thank you. I'm trying to make the 2nd syllable of
[sweetened] weak or silent.
Cf. "Mountain" with th' swallow'd (?) 2nd syllable
[sweet'n'd]
__________________
Shakespeare used
[taken] ~104 times, and
[ta'en] ~102 times
He must've thought [ta'en] was 1 syllable ?
No, he knows it's two syllables but had to squash it into one syllable to fit the meter.
You might check how the 206 occurrences are distributed between prose and poetic passages.
Post by Hen Hanna
Post by Dingbat
What if he would spell naive as na'iv?
http://www.rhymezone.com/r/ss.cgi?q=na%27&mode=k
He didn't , but I 'm still trying to get at the
meaning / significance of [na'iv] ... hints?
It's a normal "broad phonetic" or "phonemic" transcription of the English word
"naive," indicating the stress on the second syllable.
Seems to me that I pronounce (rarely) "naive" wrong. I would
phonemicize my pronunciation as /nayyiyv/. I am aware that
English isn't supposed to have geminated 'y's but I can clearly
feel both. The accent is on the "-yiyv" even though the first
syllable is very strong for an unaccented syllable.
I don't have a problem inserting no glide, but when there is a glide, it's
probably ambisyllabic -- and ambisyllabics are troublesome for phonemicization.
DKleinecke
2017-05-23 00:00:38 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by DKleinecke
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Hen Hanna
Post by Dingbat
Post by Hen Hanna
Post by Dingbat
Post by Hen Hanna
Can ['d] instead of [ed] indicate a change in pronunciation?
e.g.
Can [sweeten'd] indicate a weak (or silent) 2nd syllable?
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%27d
<sweetn'd> would be an innovation to the typical reader. If you're up to innovative spelling, and n is the syllabic nucleus, why not <sweetnd>?
Thank you. I'm trying to make the 2nd syllable of
[sweetened] weak or silent.
Cf. "Mountain" with th' swallow'd (?) 2nd syllable
[sweet'n'd]
__________________
Shakespeare used
[taken] ~104 times, and
[ta'en] ~102 times
He must've thought [ta'en] was 1 syllable ?
No, he knows it's two syllables but had to squash it into one syllable to fit the meter.
You might check how the 206 occurrences are distributed between prose and poetic passages.
Post by Hen Hanna
Post by Dingbat
What if he would spell naive as na'iv?
http://www.rhymezone.com/r/ss.cgi?q=na%27&mode=k
He didn't , but I 'm still trying to get at the
meaning / significance of [na'iv] ... hints?
It's a normal "broad phonetic" or "phonemic" transcription of the English word
"naive," indicating the stress on the second syllable.
Seems to me that I pronounce (rarely) "naive" wrong. I would
phonemicize my pronunciation as /nayyiyv/. I am aware that
English isn't supposed to have geminated 'y's but I can clearly
feel both. The accent is on the "-yiyv" even though the first
syllable is very strong for an unaccented syllable.
I don't have a problem inserting no glide, but when there is a glide, it's
probably ambisyllabic -- and ambisyllabics are troublesome for phonemicization.
Indeed troublesome. But what would be the difference between
a geminated 'y' and an ambisyllabic 'y'?

Arabic - at least spellingwise - has geminated 'y'
Peter T. Daniels
2017-05-23 03:00:29 UTC
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Post by DKleinecke
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by DKleinecke
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Hen Hanna
Post by Dingbat
Post by Hen Hanna
Post by Dingbat
Post by Hen Hanna
Can ['d] instead of [ed] indicate a change in pronunciation?
e.g.
Can [sweeten'd] indicate a weak (or silent) 2nd syllable?
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%27d
<sweetn'd> would be an innovation to the typical reader. If you're up to innovative spelling, and n is the syllabic nucleus, why not <sweetnd>?
Thank you. I'm trying to make the 2nd syllable of
[sweetened] weak or silent.
Cf. "Mountain" with th' swallow'd (?) 2nd syllable
[sweet'n'd]
__________________
Shakespeare used
[taken] ~104 times, and
[ta'en] ~102 times
He must've thought [ta'en] was 1 syllable ?
No, he knows it's two syllables but had to squash it into one syllable to fit the meter.
You might check how the 206 occurrences are distributed between prose and poetic passages.
Post by Hen Hanna
Post by Dingbat
What if he would spell naive as na'iv?
http://www.rhymezone.com/r/ss.cgi?q=na%27&mode=k
He didn't , but I 'm still trying to get at the
meaning / significance of [na'iv] ... hints?
It's a normal "broad phonetic" or "phonemic" transcription of the English word
"naive," indicating the stress on the second syllable.
Seems to me that I pronounce (rarely) "naive" wrong. I would
phonemicize my pronunciation as /nayyiyv/. I am aware that
English isn't supposed to have geminated 'y's but I can clearly
feel both. The accent is on the "-yiyv" even though the first
syllable is very strong for an unaccented syllable.
I don't have a problem inserting no glide, but when there is a glide, it's
probably ambisyllabic -- and ambisyllabics are troublesome for phonemicization.
Indeed troublesome. But what would be the difference between
a geminated 'y' and an ambisyllabic 'y'?
The former is imposed by a theory; the latter is a phonetic observation.
Post by DKleinecke
Arabic - at least spellingwise - has geminated 'y'
DKleinecke
2017-05-23 03:26:39 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by DKleinecke
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by DKleinecke
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Hen Hanna
Post by Dingbat
Post by Hen Hanna
Post by Dingbat
Post by Hen Hanna
Can ['d] instead of [ed] indicate a change in pronunciation?
e.g.
Can [sweeten'd] indicate a weak (or silent) 2nd syllable?
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%27d
<sweetn'd> would be an innovation to the typical reader. If you're up to innovative spelling, and n is the syllabic nucleus, why not <sweetnd>?
Thank you. I'm trying to make the 2nd syllable of
[sweetened] weak or silent.
Cf. "Mountain" with th' swallow'd (?) 2nd syllable
[sweet'n'd]
__________________
Shakespeare used
[taken] ~104 times, and
[ta'en] ~102 times
He must've thought [ta'en] was 1 syllable ?
No, he knows it's two syllables but had to squash it into one syllable to fit the meter.
You might check how the 206 occurrences are distributed between prose and poetic passages.
Post by Hen Hanna
Post by Dingbat
What if he would spell naive as na'iv?
http://www.rhymezone.com/r/ss.cgi?q=na%27&mode=k
He didn't , but I 'm still trying to get at the
meaning / significance of [na'iv] ... hints?
It's a normal "broad phonetic" or "phonemic" transcription of the English word
"naive," indicating the stress on the second syllable.
Seems to me that I pronounce (rarely) "naive" wrong. I would
phonemicize my pronunciation as /nayyiyv/. I am aware that
English isn't supposed to have geminated 'y's but I can clearly
feel both. The accent is on the "-yiyv" even though the first
syllable is very strong for an unaccented syllable.
I don't have a problem inserting no glide, but when there is a glide, it's
probably ambisyllabic -- and ambisyllabics are troublesome for phonemicization.
Indeed troublesome. But what would be the difference between
a geminated 'y' and an ambisyllabic 'y'?
The former is imposed by a theory; the latter is a phonetic observation.
Ah so. I am no phonetician but I would, on the basis of
theory, interpret an ambisyllabic as a geminate.
Ruud Harmsen
2017-05-23 07:48:53 UTC
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Mon, 22 May 2017 14:46:04 -0700 (PDT): DKleinecke
Post by DKleinecke
Seems to me that I pronounce (rarely) "naive" wrong. I would
phonemicize my pronunciation as /nayyiyv/. I am aware that
English isn't supposed to have geminated 'y's but I can clearly
feel both. The accent is on the "-yiyv" even though the first
syllable is very strong for an unaccented syllable.
That not wrong. Listen here:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/naive
and here:
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/naive .
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Ruud Harmsen
2017-05-23 14:40:20 UTC
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Post by Ruud Harmsen
Mon, 22 May 2017 14:46:04 -0700 (PDT): DKleinecke
Post by DKleinecke
Seems to me that I pronounce (rarely) "naive" wrong. I would
phonemicize my pronunciation as /nayyiyv/. I am aware that
English isn't supposed to have geminated 'y's but I can clearly
feel both. The accent is on the "-yiyv" even though the first
syllable is very strong for an unaccented syllable.
That
's
Post by Ruud Harmsen
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/naive
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/naive .
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Dingbat
2017-05-24 01:03:07 UTC
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Post by DKleinecke
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Hen Hanna
Post by Dingbat
Post by Hen Hanna
Post by Dingbat
Post by Hen Hanna
Can ['d] instead of [ed] indicate a change in pronunciation?
e.g.
Can [sweeten'd] indicate a weak (or silent) 2nd syllable?
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%27d
<sweetn'd> would be an innovation to the typical reader. If you're up to innovative spelling, and n is the syllabic nucleus, why not <sweetnd>?
Thank you. I'm trying to make the 2nd syllable of
[sweetened] weak or silent.
Cf. "Mountain" with th' swallow'd (?) 2nd syllable
[sweet'n'd]
__________________
Shakespeare used
[taken] ~104 times, and
[ta'en] ~102 times
He must've thought [ta'en] was 1 syllable ?
No, he knows it's two syllables but had to squash it into one syllable to fit the meter.
You might check how the 206 occurrences are distributed between prose and poetic passages.
Post by Hen Hanna
Post by Dingbat
What if he would spell naive as na'iv?
http://www.rhymezone.com/r/ss.cgi?q=na%27&mode=k
He didn't , but I 'm still trying to get at the
meaning / significance of [na'iv] ... hints?
It's a normal "broad phonetic" or "phonemic" transcription of the English
word "naive," indicating the stress on the second syllable.
Seems to me that I pronounce (rarely) "naive" wrong. I would
phonemicize my pronunciation as /nayyiyv/. I am aware that
English isn't supposed to have geminated 'y's but I can clearly
feel both.
Does English not have [j:] (your geminated 'y') in loanwords?
I've noticed [j:] in an Anglophone American's pronunciation of 'Chile Relleno.'
Post by DKleinecke
The accent is on the "-yiyv" even though the first
syllable is very strong for an unaccented syllable.
DKleinecke
2017-05-24 02:15:14 UTC
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Post by Dingbat
Post by DKleinecke
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Hen Hanna
Post by Dingbat
Post by Hen Hanna
Post by Dingbat
Post by Hen Hanna
Can ['d] instead of [ed] indicate a change in pronunciation?
e.g.
Can [sweeten'd] indicate a weak (or silent) 2nd syllable?
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%27d
<sweetn'd> would be an innovation to the typical reader. If you're up to innovative spelling, and n is the syllabic nucleus, why not <sweetnd>?
Thank you. I'm trying to make the 2nd syllable of
[sweetened] weak or silent.
Cf. "Mountain" with th' swallow'd (?) 2nd syllable
[sweet'n'd]
__________________
Shakespeare used
[taken] ~104 times, and
[ta'en] ~102 times
He must've thought [ta'en] was 1 syllable ?
No, he knows it's two syllables but had to squash it into one syllable to fit the meter.
You might check how the 206 occurrences are distributed between prose and poetic passages.
Post by Hen Hanna
Post by Dingbat
What if he would spell naive as na'iv?
http://www.rhymezone.com/r/ss.cgi?q=na%27&mode=k
He didn't , but I 'm still trying to get at the
meaning / significance of [na'iv] ... hints?
It's a normal "broad phonetic" or "phonemic" transcription of the English
word "naive," indicating the stress on the second syllable.
Seems to me that I pronounce (rarely) "naive" wrong. I would
phonemicize my pronunciation as /nayyiyv/. I am aware that
English isn't supposed to have geminated 'y's but I can clearly
feel both.
Does English not have [j:] (your geminated 'y') in loanwords?
I've noticed [j:] in an Anglophone American's pronunciation of 'Chile Relleno.'
To me /cil-iy re-yeyn-ow/ normally but when I feel more
Mejicano /rey-yeyn-ow/. I can say it in authentic Spanish
too - but rarely need to. I usually am happy with chile
verde.
Peter T. Daniels
2017-05-24 03:04:58 UTC
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Post by Dingbat
Post by DKleinecke
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Hen Hanna
Post by Dingbat
Post by Hen Hanna
Post by Dingbat
Post by Hen Hanna
Can ['d] instead of [ed] indicate a change in pronunciation?
e.g.
Can [sweeten'd] indicate a weak (or silent) 2nd syllable?
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%27d
<sweetn'd> would be an innovation to the typical reader. If you're up to innovative spelling, and n is the syllabic nucleus, why not <sweetnd>?
Thank you. I'm trying to make the 2nd syllable of
[sweetened] weak or silent.
Cf. "Mountain" with th' swallow'd (?) 2nd syllable
[sweet'n'd]
__________________
Shakespeare used
[taken] ~104 times, and
[ta'en] ~102 times
He must've thought [ta'en] was 1 syllable ?
No, he knows it's two syllables but had to squash it into one syllable to fit the meter.
You might check how the 206 occurrences are distributed between prose and poetic passages.
Post by Hen Hanna
Post by Dingbat
What if he would spell naive as na'iv?
http://www.rhymezone.com/r/ss.cgi?q=na%27&mode=k
He didn't , but I 'm still trying to get at the
meaning / significance of [na'iv] ... hints?
It's a normal "broad phonetic" or "phonemic" transcription of the English
word "naive," indicating the stress on the second syllable.
Seems to me that I pronounce (rarely) "naive" wrong. I would
phonemicize my pronunciation as /nayyiyv/. I am aware that
English isn't supposed to have geminated 'y's but I can clearly
feel both.
Does English not have [j:] (your geminated 'y') in loanwords?
I've noticed [j:] in an Anglophone American's pronunciation of 'Chile Relleno.'
Post by DKleinecke
The accent is on the "-yiyv" even though the first
syllable is very strong for an unaccented syllable.
Of course it has the sound (phonetic) [j:]. The question is how to interpret it
phonemically. /yy/?

wugi
2017-05-22 10:55:33 UTC
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Post by Hen Hanna
Post by Dingbat
Post by Hen Hanna
Can ['d] instead of [ed] indicate a change in pronunciation?
e.g.
Can [sweeten'd] indicate a weak (or silent) 2nd syllable?
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%27d
<sweetn'd> would be an innovation to the typical reader. If you're
up to innovative spelling, and n is the syllabic nucleus, why not <sweetnd>?
Thank you. I'm trying to make the 2nd syllable of
[sweetened] weak or silent.
What *is* the second syllable?
It is "-(t)en-" in "sweeten", so "-ed" would come as a third one, no?
Only, this one is already usually silent after liquid consonants. It is
rather the former "-(t)en-" you want to show silent, isn't it?

So then: "sweet'ned". But this would make "-ed" look oddly voiced again,
so rather: "sweet'n'd"?
Post by Hen Hanna
Cf. "Mountain" with th' swallow'd (?) 2nd syllable
If we'd use apostrophe for the glottal stop, and drop silent characters
altogether, I'm sure a more correct phonetic rendering would be
"swee'nd" and "moun'n".

Compare swallowing endings in German:
überwinden ~ überwin'n
bersten ~ bers'n
In the absence of glottal stop, liquids may come to be "glued", but
without loss of distinguishing the syllables:
kommen ~ kom-n
bellen ~ bel-n
kennen ~ ken-n.

Same in some Flemish dialects, that would distinguish
schoen (shoe; an ancient plural itself), and
schoenen ~ schoen-n (shoes; in standard speech ~ schoene(n)).
--
guido wugi
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