Discussion:
Arabic stress in muslim, muslima, Muhammad?
(too old to reply)
Ruud Harmsen
2017-05-11 11:08:35 UTC
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Which syllable of the Arabic word muslim bears the stress?

In my 1958 Teach Yourself, page 22, it says "on the penultimate when
it is long ; i.e. has a long vowel or two consonants." Because this
book is for Classical / MSA, I suppose the syllables are counted
including any case endings. So in muslim = nominative muslimu, the one
but last syllable is -lim-? Is it long because it has two consonants,
l and m? Or should I divide the syllables as mus-li-mu, so the
penultimate -li- is short / non-heavy?

Is the count in
https://www.quora.com/Where-is-the-stress-in-arabic-words, different,
i.e. not including case endings? That's because Teach Yourself never
has the stress on the last syllable. "raaseen" is really
raasiinu/-a/-i ?

If muslim is stressed MUS-lim, how is that with the feminine form
muslima(h/t)? Same stress or is it shifted?

I think Muhammad is stressed mu-HAM-mad? Because -Ham- is a syllable
with two consonants due to the gemination of the m?

The strange thing is in Dutch we say MO-hammet (often even shorted to
Mo); even Dutch speaking muslims themselves often say that, with or
without a Morrocan accent. But it's wrong in Arabic, I suppose?
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Peter T. Daniels
2017-05-11 11:32:13 UTC
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Post by Ruud Harmsen
Which syllable of the Arabic word muslim bears the stress?
In my 1958 Teach Yourself, page 22, it says "on the penultimate when
it is long ; i.e. has a long vowel or two consonants." Because this
book is for Classical / MSA, I suppose the syllables are counted
including any case endings. So in muslim = nominative muslimu, the one
but last syllable is -lim-? Is it long because it has two consonants,
l and m?
Good grief. A syllable is "heavy" if it's closed (like -lim-) or has a long vowel.

Arabic has "doubly closed" syllables like "waqf," but there are no 3-consonant sequences.
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Or should I divide the syllables as mus-li-mu, so the
penultimate -li- is short / non-heavy?
Of course!
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Is the count in
https://www.quora.com/Where-is-the-stress-in-arabic-words, different,
i.e. not including case endings? That's because Teach Yourself never
has the stress on the last syllable. "raaseen" is really
raasiinu/-a/-i ?
If muslim is stressed MUS-lim, how is that with the feminine form
muslima(h/t)? Same stress or is it shifted?
I think Muhammad is stressed mu-HAM-mad? Because -Ham- is a syllable
with two consonants due to the gemination of the m?
Yes
Post by Ruud Harmsen
The strange thing is in Dutch we say MO-hammet (often even shorted to
Mo); even Dutch speaking muslims themselves often say that, with or
without a Morrocan accent. But it's wrong in Arabic, I suppose?
Yes
Yusuf B Gursey
2017-05-11 14:53:48 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Which syllable of the Arabic word muslim bears the stress?
In my 1958 Teach Yourself, page 22, it says "on the penultimate when
it is long ; i.e. has a long vowel or two consonants." Because this
book is for Classical / MSA, I suppose the syllables are counted
including any case endings. So in muslim = nominative muslimu, the one
but last syllable is -lim-? Is it long because it has two consonants,
l and m?
Good grief. A syllable is "heavy" if it's closed (like -lim-) or has a long vowel.
Arabic has "doubly closed" syllables like "waqf," but there are no 3-consonant sequences.
In Classical Arabic only *in* "waqf" i.e. only in pausal forms
and rarely when the medial vowel is /a:/ or /ay/ (not sure about
/aw/) and the last consonant of the syllable is geminated.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Or should I divide the syllables as mus-li-mu, so the
penultimate -li- is short / non-heavy?
Of course!
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Is the count in
https://www.quora.com/Where-is-the-stress-in-arabic-words, different,
i.e. not including case endings? That's because Teach Yourself never
has the stress on the last syllable. "raaseen" is really
raasiinu/-a/-i ?
If muslim is stressed MUS-lim, how is that with the feminine form
muslima(h/t)? Same stress or is it shifted?
I think Muhammad is stressed mu-HAM-mad? Because -Ham- is a syllable
with two consonants due to the gemination of the m?
Yes
Post by Ruud Harmsen
The strange thing is in Dutch we say MO-hammet (often even shorted to
Mo); even Dutch speaking muslims themselves often say that, with or
without a Morrocan accent. But it's wrong in Arabic, I suppose?
Yes
Ruud Harmsen
2017-05-11 15:29:19 UTC
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Thu, 11 May 2017 04:32:13 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Good grief.
I knew precisely which two people would reply, and which of them would
not be nice and informative.

I more or less expected who were going to tell me that Classic and MSA
is not the same. Did you?
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Peter T. Daniels
2017-05-11 15:52:23 UTC
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Post by Ruud Harmsen
Thu, 11 May 2017 04:32:13 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Good grief.
I knew precisely which two people would reply, and which of them would
not be nice and informative.
I more or less expected who were going to tell me that Classic and MSA
is not the same. Did you?
No, I did not.

The "good grief" was relying on a Teach Yourself, and for calling the syllables in
question "long."

Would you care to explain why the number of letters in Arabic is relevant to the
number of letters in Greek?
Ruud Harmsen
2017-05-11 17:59:51 UTC
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Thu, 11 May 2017 08:52:23 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Thu, 11 May 2017 04:32:13 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Good grief.
I knew precisely which two people would reply, and which of them would
not be nice and informative.
I more or less expected who were going to tell me that Classic and MSA
is not the same. Did you?
No, I did not.
The "good grief" was relying on a Teach Yourself, and for calling the syllables in
question "long."
They call them long and immediately define the term. As heavy. The
same, by the way, applies to Latin:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_spelling_and_pronunciation#Heavy_and_light_syllables
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreimorengesetz
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Would you care to explain why the number of letters in Arabic is relevant to the
number of letters in Greek?
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Yusuf B Gursey
2017-05-11 18:29:59 UTC
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Post by Ruud Harmsen
Thu, 11 May 2017 08:52:23 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Thu, 11 May 2017 04:32:13 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Good grief.
I knew precisely which two people would reply, and which of them would
not be nice and informative.
I more or less expected who were going to tell me that Classic and MSA
is not the same. Did you?
No, I did not.
The "good grief" was relying on a Teach Yourself, and for calling the syllables in
question "long."
They call them long and immediately define the term. As heavy. The
"long" and "short" is how I learned them, first in terms of Arabic
poetic meters as applied to (usually Ottoman) Turkish.
Post by Ruud Harmsen
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_spelling_and_pronunciation#Heavy_and_light_syllables
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreimorengesetz
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Would you care to explain why the number of letters in Arabic is relevant to the
number of letters in Greek?
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Ruud Harmsen
2017-05-11 18:00:41 UTC
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Thu, 11 May 2017 08:52:23 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Would you care to explain why the number of letters in Arabic is relevant to the
number of letters in Greek?
No, I would not care. So I won't do it. :)
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Ruud Harmsen
2017-05-11 15:30:31 UTC
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Thu, 11 May 2017 04:32:13 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Good grief. A syllable is "heavy" if it's closed (like -lim-) or has a long vowel.
Vide in basso.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Arabic has "doubly closed" syllables like "waqf," but there are no 3-consonant sequences.
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Or should I divide the syllables as mus-li-mu, so the
penultimate -li- is short / non-heavy?
Of course!
You contradict yourself. That's why I asked.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Ruud Harmsen
2017-05-11 15:38:20 UTC
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Thu, 11 May 2017 04:32:13 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
but there are no 3-consonant sequences.
Really? Thanks, I never heard of that before!

Seriously, one of the first bits of (Egyptian) Arabic was "lisabr
Heduud", prononced lisabr eHduud because of that rule.



First ever Umm Kalthum record I bought, in 1973 or some such. Fan for
ever, also due to the here very conspicuous strange tunings.
http://rudhar.com/musica/mqwm/mqwm-en.htm
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Ruud Harmsen
2017-05-11 15:42:04 UTC
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Post by Ruud Harmsen
http://youtu.be/S2MVHJIwcVs
This younger woman imitates the original quite accurately. I know
because I know the old record almost by heart. Phonetically, with
hardly an idea what it means.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Ruud Harmsen
2017-05-11 15:45:31 UTC
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Post by Ruud Harmsen
Post by Ruud Harmsen
http://youtu.be/S2MVHJIwcVs
This younger woman imitates the original quite accurately. I know
because I know the old record almost by heart. Phonetically, with
hardly an idea what it means.
Sigh. She's no longer with us: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thekra
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Yusuf B Gursey
2017-05-11 16:26:52 UTC
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Post by Ruud Harmsen
Thu, 11 May 2017 04:32:13 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
but there are no 3-consonant sequences.
Really? Thanks, I never heard of that before!
Not in Classical Arabic or so-called MSA.
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Seriously, one of the first bits of (Egyptian) Arabic was "lisabr
Heduud", prononced lisabr eHduud because of that rule.
Exactly, that's "Egyptian Arabic" not "Classical Arabic" or "MSA"
Post by Ruud Harmsen
http://youtu.be/TjWXJlulab4
http://youtu.be/S2MVHJIwcVs
First ever Umm Kalthum record I bought, in 1973 or some such. Fan for
ever, also due to the here very conspicuous strange tunings.
http://rudhar.com/musica/mqwm/mqwm-en.htm
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Ruud Harmsen
2017-05-11 18:05:00 UTC
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Thu, 11 May 2017 09:26:52 -0700 (PDT): Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Thu, 11 May 2017 04:32:13 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
but there are no 3-consonant sequences.
Really? Thanks, I never heard of that before!
Not in Classical Arabic or so-called MSA.
Any examples? I cannot imagine how 3 consonants could come about. Two
initial consonants is impossible. To final ones and one initial one
can occur, but then there is always (practically always?) some short
vowel in between.
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Seriously, one of the first bits of (Egyptian) Arabic was "lisabr
Heduud", prononced lisabr eHduud because of that rule.
Exactly, that's "Egyptian Arabic" not "Classical Arabic" or "MSA"
But it still have the same phonotactics.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Yusuf B Gursey
2017-05-11 18:27:02 UTC
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Post by Ruud Harmsen
Thu, 11 May 2017 09:26:52 -0700 (PDT): Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Thu, 11 May 2017 04:32:13 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
but there are no 3-consonant sequences.
Really? Thanks, I never heard of that before!
Not in Classical Arabic or so-called MSA.
Any examples? I cannot imagine how 3 consonants could come about. Two
initial consonants is impossible. To final ones and one initial one
can occur, but then there is always (practically always?) some short
vowel in between.
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Seriously, one of the first bits of (Egyptian) Arabic was "lisabr
Heduud", prononced lisabr eHduud because of that rule.
Exactly, that's "Egyptian Arabic" not "Classical Arabic" or "MSA"
But it still have the same phonotactics.
Not neccesarily, though it may have some conservative
features.
Post by Ruud Harmsen
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Yusuf B Gursey
2017-05-11 18:33:43 UTC
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Post by Ruud Harmsen
Thu, 11 May 2017 09:26:52 -0700 (PDT): Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Thu, 11 May 2017 04:32:13 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
but there are no 3-consonant sequences.
Really? Thanks, I never heard of that before!
Not in Classical Arabic or so-called MSA.
Any examples? I cannot imagine how 3 consonants could come about. Two
Since I said that it cannot occur, there are no examples.
Post by Ruud Harmsen
initial consonants is impossible. To final ones and one initial one
can occur, but then there is always (practically always?) some short
vowel in between.
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Seriously, one of the first bits of (Egyptian) Arabic was "lisabr
Heduud", prononced lisabr eHduud because of that rule.
Exactly, that's "Egyptian Arabic" not "Classical Arabic" or "MSA"
But it still have the same phonotactics.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Ruud Harmsen
2017-05-12 08:01:20 UTC
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Thu, 11 May 2017 11:33:43 -0700 (PDT): Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Thu, 11 May 2017 09:26:52 -0700 (PDT): Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Thu, 11 May 2017 04:32:13 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
but there are no 3-consonant sequences.
Really? Thanks, I never heard of that before!
Not in Classical Arabic or so-called MSA.
Any examples? I cannot imagine how 3 consonants could come about. Two
Since I said that it cannot occur, there are no examples.
O wait, now I see I misunderstood you. I thought you meant the rule
wasn't valid in Classical/MSA, but you meant three consecutive
consonants cannot occur in Classical/MSA.

So we agree. Sorry about my sloppy reading.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Yusuf B Gursey
2017-05-11 15:08:11 UTC
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Post by Ruud Harmsen
Which syllable of the Arabic word muslim bears the stress?
In my 1958 Teach Yourself, page 22, it says "on the penultimate when
it is long ; i.e. has a long vowel or two consonants." Because this
book is for Classical / MSA, I suppose the syllables are counted
including any case endings. So in muslim = nominative muslimu, the one
If the word is not pronounced in pause, you articulate the case ending,
otherwise you don't. In modern recitations of modern texts, proper
names tend to be articulated in pause.

In Pre-Islamic poetry there was an older pausal rule where the final
short vowels where lengthened and the nunation of case dropped. In the
Qur'an there are only instances for final -a and the accusative being
articulated as a: in pause. Still, poets may still imitate the Pre-Islamic
style.

In terms of poetical metrics, the final syllable of a line
is always regarded as long.
Post by Ruud Harmsen
but last syllable is -lim-? Is it long because it has two consonants,
l and m? Or should I divide the syllables as mus-li-mu, so the
penultimate -li- is short / non-heavy?
Is the count in
https://www.quora.com/Where-is-the-stress-in-arabic-words, different,
i.e. not including case endings? That's because Teach Yourself never
has the stress on the last syllable. "raaseen" is really
raasiinu/-a/-i ?
If muslim is stressed MUS-lim, how is that with the feminine form
muslima(h/t)? Same stress or is it shifted?
I think Muhammad is stressed mu-HAM-mad? Because -Ham- is a syllable
with two consonants due to the gemination of the m?
The strange thing is in Dutch we say MO-hammet (often even shorted to
Mo); even Dutch speaking muslims themselves often say that, with or
without a Morrocan accent. But it's wrong in Arabic, I suppose?
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Yusuf B Gursey
2017-05-11 15:10:35 UTC
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Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Which syllable of the Arabic word muslim bears the stress?
In my 1958 Teach Yourself, page 22, it says "on the penultimate when
it is long ; i.e. has a long vowel or two consonants." Because this
book is for Classical / MSA, I suppose the syllables are counted
including any case endings. So in muslim = nominative muslimu, the one
If the word is not pronounced in pause, you articulate the case ending,
otherwise you don't. In modern recitations of modern texts, proper
names tend to be articulated in pause.
In Pre-Islamic poetry there was an older pausal rule where the final
short vowels where lengthened and the nunation of case dropped. In the
Qur'an there are only instances for final -a and the accusative being
articulated as a: in pause. Still, poets may still imitate the Pre-Islamic
style.
In terms of poetical metrics, the final syllable of a line
is always regarded as long.
Post by Ruud Harmsen
but last syllable is -lim-? Is it long because it has two consonants,
l and m? Or should I divide the syllables as mus-li-mu, so the
penultimate -li- is short / non-heavy?
Is the count in
https://www.quora.com/Where-is-the-stress-in-arabic-words, different,
i.e. not including case endings? That's because Teach Yourself never
has the stress on the last syllable. "raaseen" is really
raasiinu/-a/-i ?
"muslima", in reciting in High Classical style, muslimah is
a pausal form.
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Ruud Harmsen
If muslim is stressed MUS-lim, how is that with the feminine form
muslima(h/t)? Same stress or is it shifted?
I think Muhammad is stressed mu-HAM-mad? Because -Ham- is a syllable
with two consonants due to the gemination of the m?
The strange thing is in Dutch we say MO-hammet (often even shorted to
Mo); even Dutch speaking muslims themselves often say that, with or
without a Morrocan accent. But it's wrong in Arabic, I suppose?
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Ruud Harmsen
2017-05-11 15:50:56 UTC
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Thu, 11 May 2017 08:10:35 -0700 (PDT): Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
"muslima", in reciting in High Classical style, muslimah is
a pausal form.
Post by Ruud Harmsen
If muslim is stressed MUS-lim, how is that with the feminine form
muslima(h/t)? Same stress or is it shifted?
But the same stress? Is that ta-marbuta syllable considered heavy or
short?
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Yusuf B Gursey
2017-05-11 17:23:33 UTC
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Post by Ruud Harmsen
Thu, 11 May 2017 08:10:35 -0700 (PDT): Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
"muslima", in reciting in High Classical style, muslimah is
a pausal form.
Post by Ruud Harmsen
If muslim is stressed MUS-lim, how is that with the feminine form
muslima(h/t)? Same stress or is it shifted?
But the same stress? Is that ta-marbuta syllable considered heavy or
short?
-ma is always short, you can't start a syllable with a vowel. It
is low register MSA.

-mah is pausal, high register. long.

in context you parse -ma-tu short short (if unnunated).
or -ma-tun short long (nunated)
Post by Ruud Harmsen
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Yusuf B Gursey
2017-05-11 17:16:34 UTC
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Post by Ruud Harmsen
Which syllable of the Arabic word muslim bears the stress?
In my 1958 Teach Yourself, page 22, it says "on the penultimate when
That's Tritton's Teach Yourself Arabic which is exclusively the
High Classical style.

"Modern Standard Arabic" is a living language, albeit with no
native speakers. Prescriptively it is almost indistingishable
fom Classical Arabic, but since it is a living language one
can describe actual usage and variations pop up especially
when it comes to the recitation of otherwise prepared written
texts.

Stress was not studied by the medieval grammarians, and hence
it is not explicitly prescribed. The stress patterns found
in textbooks are usually derived from the speech gathered
from Al-Azhar Quran reciters, but there is some variation
in the speech of other schools of Quran recitation.
The stress patterns of the formal speech of media
speakers, politicians and the like usually reflect
that of their native Neo-Arabic dialect.

Syllabification OTOH was fixed by poetry and the
traditional meters depend on it. Modern Formal Speech,
i.e. recited Modern Standard Arabic by and large
sticks to it. Some exceptions, such as superheavy
non-pausal syllables that may be found in the recitation
unassimilated foreign, modern or relatively modern
loanwords (usually European, some are Turkish or other
language in origin) and foreign names (some entering
the language because they are geographical or such).

The degree that the recitation of MSA resembles Classical
Arabic depends on the speaker and the subject.

The lowest register of MSA has pause after each word.
This is actually considered a "legitimate" form of speech,
it was probably the form of recitation of the earliest
poorly literate scribes as they struggled to read very
slowly or tried to guess the orthography of each word
they had in mind (this would explain the standard
orthography based on pausal forms). The high register
is theoretically the same as Classical Arabic, with much
variation in between.
Post by Ruud Harmsen
it is long ; i.e. has a long vowel or two consonants." Because this
book is for Classical / MSA, I suppose the syllables are counted
including any case endings. So in muslim = nominative muslimu, the one
but last syllable is -lim-? Is it long because it has two consonants,
l and m? Or should I divide the syllables as mus-li-mu, so the
penultimate -li- is short / non-heavy?
Is the count in
https://www.quora.com/Where-is-the-stress-in-arabic-words, different,
i.e. not including case endings? That's because Teach Yourself never
has the stress on the last syllable. "raaseen" is really
raasiinu/-a/-i ?
If muslim is stressed MUS-lim, how is that with the feminine form
muslima(h/t)? Same stress or is it shifted?
I think Muhammad is stressed mu-HAM-mad? Because -Ham- is a syllable
with two consonants due to the gemination of the m?
The strange thing is in Dutch we say MO-hammet (often even shorted to
Mo); even Dutch speaking muslims themselves often say that, with or
without a Morrocan accent. But it's wrong in Arabic, I suppose?
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Yusuf B Gursey
2017-05-11 19:13:44 UTC
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Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Which syllable of the Arabic word muslim bears the stress?
In my 1958 Teach Yourself, page 22, it says "on the penultimate when
That's Tritton's Teach Yourself Arabic which is exclusively the
High Classical style.
"Modern Standard Arabic" is a living language, albeit with no
native speakers. Prescriptively it is almost indistingishable
fom Classical Arabic, but since it is a living language one
can describe actual usage and variations pop up especially
when it comes to the recitation of otherwise prepared written
texts.
Stress was not studied by the medieval grammarians, and hence
it is not explicitly prescribed. The stress patterns found
It's also the area of phoentics I am the weakest in, and
stress patterns is normally not the thing I give priority
to when learning a language through a textbook. I usually
just pick it up by ear.
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
in textbooks are usually derived from the speech gathered
from Al-Azhar Quran reciters, but there is some variation
in the speech of other schools of Quran recitation.
The stress patterns of the formal speech of media
speakers, politicians and the like usually reflect
that of their native Neo-Arabic dialect.
I once had an experience that keeps puzzling me.

Some time ago I was traveling with a Yemeni man in a bus
in the States so I made some short chit chat in Arabic,
bland bookish "Standard Arabic". Later we swithec back to
English he complemented me on Arabic and I told him a little
about myself and in passing I added "BTW I have some Arab
relatives". He said "Wait, let me guess where they from"
and then said "The must be Iraqi". "Well, yes but how did
you know?" I asked. He responded "From your accent". I am
still puzzled by this, since I did not use to my mind any
feature peculiar to Iraqi colloquial (such as africated /k/
before front vowels) and since I was speaking Standard Arabic,
interdentals shouldn' be diagnostic and they are hardly only
found in Iraqi speech (indeed Yemeni has them), nor did I
use any vocabulary peculiar to Iraq and I didn't pick up
much Arabic from my visiting relatives anyway. Rather I
suspect it must be some less standardized feature of Arabic
such as vowel quality or stress patterns I picked up, perhaps
they are found in Iraq as areal features in common with Persian
and Turkish or features that influenced the recitation of Arabic
in Turkey and yet are still in the domain acceptable Arabic.
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Syllabification OTOH was fixed by poetry and the
traditional meters depend on it. Modern Formal Speech,
i.e. recited Modern Standard Arabic by and large
sticks to it. Some exceptions, such as superheavy
non-pausal syllables that may be found in the recitation
unassimilated foreign, modern or relatively modern
loanwords (usually European, some are Turkish or other
language in origin) and foreign names (some entering
the language because they are geographical or such).
The degree that the recitation of MSA resembles Classical
Arabic depends on the speaker and the subject.
The lowest register of MSA has pause after each word.
This is actually considered a "legitimate" form of speech,
it was probably the form of recitation of the earliest
poorly literate scribes as they struggled to read very
slowly or tried to guess the orthography of each word
they had in mind (this would explain the standard
orthography based on pausal forms). The high register
is theoretically the same as Classical Arabic, with much
variation in between.
Post by Ruud Harmsen
it is long ; i.e. has a long vowel or two consonants." Because this
book is for Classical / MSA, I suppose the syllables are counted
including any case endings. So in muslim = nominative muslimu, the one
but last syllable is -lim-? Is it long because it has two consonants,
l and m? Or should I divide the syllables as mus-li-mu, so the
penultimate -li- is short / non-heavy?
Is the count in
https://www.quora.com/Where-is-the-stress-in-arabic-words, different,
i.e. not including case endings? That's because Teach Yourself never
has the stress on the last syllable. "raaseen" is really
raasiinu/-a/-i ?
If muslim is stressed MUS-lim, how is that with the feminine form
muslima(h/t)? Same stress or is it shifted?
I think Muhammad is stressed mu-HAM-mad? Because -Ham- is a syllable
with two consonants due to the gemination of the m?
The strange thing is in Dutch we say MO-hammet (often even shorted to
Mo); even Dutch speaking muslims themselves often say that, with or
without a Morrocan accent. But it's wrong in Arabic, I suppose?
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Arnaud Fournet
2017-05-11 19:19:22 UTC
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Post by Yusuf B Gursey
I once had an experience that keeps puzzling me.
Some time ago I was traveling with a Yemeni man in a bus
in the States so I made some short chit chat in Arabic,
bland bookish "Standard Arabic". Later we swithec back to
English he complemented me on Arabic and I told him a little
about myself and in passing I added "BTW I have some Arab
relatives". He said "Wait, let me guess where they from"
and then said "The must be Iraqi". "Well, yes but how did
you know?" I asked. He responded "From your accent". I am
still puzzled by this, since I did not use to my mind any
feature peculiar to Iraqi colloquial (such as africated /k/
before front vowels) and since I was speaking Standard Arabic,
interdentals shouldn' be diagnostic and they are hardly only
found in Iraqi speech (indeed Yemeni has them), nor did I
use any vocabulary peculiar to Iraq and I didn't pick up
much Arabic from my visiting relatives anyway. Rather I
suspect it must be some less standardized feature of Arabic
such as vowel quality or stress patterns I picked up, perhaps
they are found in Iraq as areal features in common with Persian
and Turkish or features that influenced the recitation of Arabic
in Turkey and yet are still in the domain acceptable Arabic.
Branded on the tongue, organs never lie, or do they?
A.
Ruud Harmsen
2017-05-12 08:25:08 UTC
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Thu, 11 May 2017 12:19:22 -0700 (PDT): Arnaud Fournet
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
I once had an experience that keeps puzzling me.
Some time ago I was traveling with a Yemeni man in a bus
in the States so I made some short chit chat in Arabic,
bland bookish "Standard Arabic". Later we swithec back to
English he complemented me on Arabic and I told him a little
about myself and in passing I added "BTW I have some Arab
relatives". He said "Wait, let me guess where they from"
and then said "The must be Iraqi". "Well, yes but how did
you know?" I asked. He responded "From your accent". I am
still puzzled by this, since I did not use to my mind any
feature peculiar to Iraqi colloquial (such as africated /k/
before front vowels) and since I was speaking Standard Arabic,
interdentals shouldn' be diagnostic and they are hardly only
found in Iraqi speech (indeed Yemeni has them), nor did I
use any vocabulary peculiar to Iraq and I didn't pick up
much Arabic from my visiting relatives anyway. Rather I
suspect it must be some less standardized feature of Arabic
such as vowel quality or stress patterns I picked up, perhaps
they are found in Iraq as areal features in common with Persian
and Turkish or features that influenced the recitation of Arabic
in Turkey and yet are still in the domain acceptable Arabic.
Branded on the tongue, organs never lie, or do they?
True.

But sometimes, if the origin of an accent isn't clear, or quite
unfamiliar, native speakers may form an idea of where it's from that
just isn't accurate at all. It happens.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Yusuf B Gursey
2017-05-12 09:16:10 UTC
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Ruud Harmsen on 5/12/2017 in
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Thu, 11 May 2017 12:19:22 -0700 (PDT): Arnaud Fournet
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
I once had an experience that keeps puzzling me.
Some time ago I was traveling with a Yemeni man in a bus
in the States so I made some short chit chat in Arabic,
bland bookish "Standard Arabic". Later we swithec back to
English he complemented me on Arabic and I told him a little
about myself and in passing I added "BTW I have some Arab
relatives". He said "Wait, let me guess where they from"
and then said "The must be Iraqi". "Well, yes but how did
you know?" I asked. He responded "From your accent". I am
still puzzled by this, since I did not use to my mind any
feature peculiar to Iraqi colloquial (such as africated /k/
before front vowels) and since I was speaking Standard Arabic,
interdentals shouldn' be diagnostic and they are hardly only
found in Iraqi speech (indeed Yemeni has them), nor did I
use any vocabulary peculiar to Iraq and I didn't pick up
much Arabic from my visiting relatives anyway. Rather I
suspect it must be some less standardized feature of Arabic
such as vowel quality or stress patterns I picked up, perhaps
they are found in Iraq as areal features in common with Persian
and Turkish or features that influenced the recitation of Arabic
in Turkey and yet are still in the domain acceptable Arabic.
Branded on the tongue, organs never lie, or do they?
True.
But sometimes, if the origin of an accent isn't clear, or quite
unfamiliar, native speakers may form an idea of where it's from that
just isn't accurate at all. It happens.
In my case the guess was right, and I am most familiar with Iraqi
Arabic among the Neo-Arabic varieties, yet I just wasn't using it.
Ruud Harmsen
2017-05-12 08:23:00 UTC
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Raw Message
Thu, 11 May 2017 12:13:44 -0700 (PDT): Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
I once had an experience that keeps puzzling me.
Some time ago I was traveling with a Yemeni man in a bus
in the States so I made some short chit chat in Arabic,
bland bookish "Standard Arabic". Later we swithec back to
English he complemented me on Arabic and I told him a little
about myself and in passing I added "BTW I have some Arab
relatives". He said "Wait, let me guess where they from"
and then said "The must be Iraqi". "Well, yes but how did
you know?" I asked. He responded "From your accent". I am
still puzzled by this, since I did not use to my mind any
feature peculiar to Iraqi colloquial (such as africated /k/
before front vowels) and since I was speaking Standard Arabic,
interdentals shouldn' be diagnostic and they are hardly only
found in Iraqi speech (indeed Yemeni has them), nor did I
use any vocabulary peculiar to Iraq and I didn't pick up
much Arabic from my visiting relatives anyway. Rather I
suspect it must be some less standardized feature of Arabic
such as vowel quality or stress patterns I picked up, perhaps
they are found in Iraq as areal features in common with Persian
and Turkish or features that influenced the recitation of Arabic
in Turkey and yet are still in the domain acceptable Arabic.
Puzzling indeed. And interesting.

I was once deemed to be African, based on my accent in Portuguese
(http://rudhar.com/poemas/deusa/deusa.htm), although I have never been
outside Europe, and when I listen to Portuguese speakers from Angola
or Mozambique on the web, I hear no difference between them and native
speakers from Portugal.

Recently I encountered this:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/taalkringportugees/permalink/1202922526482838/
http://www.publico.pt/multimedia/video/sotaques-que-celebram-a-lingua-portuguesa-20170505-010539

Portugal, India, Guinee-Bissau, Angola, Mozambique: all very much the
same.
Brazil: less different here than I otherwise have often heard.
Cabo Verde, Timor Leste: slightly different.
São Tomé e Príncipe: heard for the first time, quite different!
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
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