Discussion:
Brian Pellar, Sino-Platonic Papers (zodiac as origin of the alphabet ?)
(too old to reply)
Franz Gnaedinger
2017-05-08 07:10:39 UTC
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A reader informed me about a new theory on the origin of the alphabet

[PDF]On the Origins of the Alphabet - Sino-Platonic Papers
sino-platonic.org/complete/spp196_alphabet.pdf
by BR Pellar - ‎Related articles
On the Origins of the Alphabet by. Brian R. Pellar. Victor H. Mair, Editor. Sino-Platonic Papers. Department of East Asian Languages and Civilizations. University .

We have a leading expert on the world's writing systems among us.
Comment?
DKleinecke
2017-05-08 17:35:57 UTC
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Post by Franz Gnaedinger
A reader informed me about a new theory on the origin of the alphabet
[PDF]On the Origins of the Alphabet - Sino-Platonic Papers
sino-platonic.org/complete/spp196_alphabet.pdf
by BR Pellar - ‎Related articles
On the Origins of the Alphabet by. Brian R. Pellar. Victor H. Mair, Editor. Sino-Platonic Papers. Department of East Asian Languages and Civilizations. University .
We have a leading expert on the world's writing systems among us.
Comment?
I'm not that expert - but I find the paper unconvincing.
Peter T. Daniels
2017-05-08 17:46:48 UTC
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Post by Franz Gnaedinger
A reader informed me about a new theory on the origin of the alphabet
[PDF]On the Origins of the Alphabet - Sino-Platonic Papers
sino-platonic.org/complete/spp196_alphabet.pdf
by BR Pellar - ‎Related articles
On the Origins of the Alphabet by. Brian R. Pellar. Victor H. Mair, Editor. Sino-Platonic Papers. Department of East Asian Languages and Civilizations. University .
We have a leading expert on the world's writing systems among us.
Comment?
2009 is hardly new. I glanced through it when it came out. It was not cooperating
scrolling to the end this morning: does he acknowledge Cyrus Gordon's publications
on the same (silly) idea 40 years earlier?
Peter T. Daniels
2017-05-08 17:50:33 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
A reader informed me about a new theory on the origin of the alphabet
[PDF]On the Origins of the Alphabet - Sino-Platonic Papers
sino-platonic.org/complete/spp196_alphabet.pdf
by BR Pellar - ‎Related articles
On the Origins of the Alphabet by. Brian R. Pellar. Victor H. Mair, Editor. Sino-Platonic Papers. Department of East Asian Languages and Civilizations. University .
We have a leading expert on the world's writing systems among us.
Comment?
2009 is hardly new. I glanced through it when it came out. It was not cooperating
scrolling to the end this morning: does he acknowledge Cyrus Gordon's publications
on the same (silly) idea 40 years earlier?
I even downloaded it -- and his two followups in SPP 219 and 246.

I guess I could free up a few Mb of disk space.
Franz Gnaedinger
2017-05-09 07:16:35 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
2009 is hardly new. I glanced through it when it came out. It was not cooperating
scrolling to the end this morning: does he acknowledge Cyrus Gordon's publications
on the same (silly) idea 40 years earlier?
Thanks for the comment. I could not open the page in my library - could just
read a few lines, then all got blurry. However, there is a connection of
the alphabet and the sky. The Greek alphabet begins with alpha, from aleph,
showing the head of an ox (still there if we turn our A upside down) while
the omega, both the lower and upper cases, remind of an Egyptian standart
showing the sun on the horns of the cow Hathor, while the aleph might have
been inspired by Baal rising as sun calf in the morning. The Greek alphabet
had 24 letters corresponding to the 24 hours of a day - initially hours of
different lenghts, but still 24 hours, so the twenty-four Greek letters
reflected on the 24 hours from sunrise to sunrise.
Peter T. Daniels
2017-05-09 12:31:55 UTC
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Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Peter T. Daniels
2009 is hardly new. I glanced through it when it came out. It was not cooperating
scrolling to the end this morning: does he acknowledge Cyrus Gordon's publications
on the same (silly) idea 40 years earlier?
Thanks for the comment. I could not open the page in my library - could just
read a few lines, then all got blurry. However, there is a connection of
the alphabet and the sky. The Greek alphabet begins with alpha, from aleph,
showing the head of an ox (still there if we turn our A upside down) while
the omega, both the lower and upper cases, remind of an Egyptian standart
showing the sun on the horns of the cow Hathor, while the aleph might have
been inspired by Baal rising as sun calf in the morning. The Greek alphabet
had 24 letters corresponding to the 24 hours of a day - initially hours of
different lenghts, but still 24 hours, so the twenty-four Greek letters
reflected on the 24 hours from sunrise to sunrise.
Sorry, but Omega is a calligraphic variant of Omicron. Absolutely no connection with
any Egyptian forebear whatsoever.

And Baal has nothing to do with Egypt.
Franz Gnaedinger
2017-05-10 07:25:31 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Sorry, but Omega is a calligraphic variant of Omicron. Absolutely no connection with
any Egyptian forebear whatsoever.
And Baal has nothing to do with Egypt.
First I have to make a precicision. Greek alphabets had between 22 and 27
letters. I meant the Ionian alphabet whose letters were also used as numerals,
from Alpha = 1 to Omega = 24. The Ionian shore of Anatolia belongs to Asia
Minor, and as the Greek alphabet was derived from the Phoenician one, Baal
in his emanation as the calf of the morning sun, rising from the tree of
life, could well account for aleph then alpha. The lower size omega strongly
resembles an Egyptian standart, emblem of the horns of the heavenly cow Hathor
bearing the solar disc, on top of a pole, only that in the lower case omega
the solar disc is shrunk to a narrow loop, while the circle is still present
in the upper case Omega, whereas now the horns are shrunk. I like the idea
of the Ionian alphabet representing the 24 hours from sunrise (Baal, Minoan
Baal later identified as Zeus) to sunrise (Hathor, solar disc on her horns).
The Ionian Alpha as 1 and Omega as 24 would then be a reference to Asia Minor
and Egypt, both having been the basis for the metaphorical Greek sunrise.
Peter T. Daniels
2017-05-10 12:16:35 UTC
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Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Sorry, but Omega is a calligraphic variant of Omicron. Absolutely no connection with
any Egyptian forebear whatsoever.
And Baal has nothing to do with Egypt.
First I have to make a precicision. Greek alphabets had between 22 and 27
letters.
That is simply not true.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
I meant the Ionian alphabet whose letters were also used as numerals,
from Alpha = 1 to Omega = 24. The Ionian shore of Anatolia belongs to Asia
Minor, and as the Greek alphabet was derived from the Phoenician one, Baal
in his emanation as the calf of the morning sun, rising from the tree of
life, could well account for aleph then alpha. The lower size omega strongly
resembles an Egyptian standart, emblem of the horns of the heavenly cow Hathor
bearing the solar disc, on top of a pole, only that in the lower case omega
the solar disc is shrunk to a narrow loop, while the circle is still present
in the upper case Omega, whereas now the horns are shrunk. I like the idea
of the Ionian alphabet representing the 24 hours from sunrise (Baal, Minoan
Baal later identified as Zeus) to sunrise (Hathor, solar disc on her horns).
The Ionian Alpha as 1 and Omega as 24 would then be a reference to Asia Minor
and Egypt, both having been the basis for the metaphorical Greek sunrise.
You really have no idea what you're talking about.
Franz Gnaedinger
2017-05-11 06:26:12 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
That is simply not true.
Yes, it's true, taken from Harald Haarmann's book on writing, which
I found in a thrift shop for 4 (four) Swiss francs. Haarmann had been
the director of the German Archaeological Institute at Istanbul,
responsible for the Göbekli Tepe excavation led by late Klaus Schmidt.
He gives various Greek alphabets. For example the archaic one from Thera,
7th century BC, has a long o given as tiny circle with a central dot,
corresponding to the hieroglyph of the supreme Egyptian god Ra who
appeared in the solar disc, while the Milesian alphabet from the 6th
century BC has a genuine Omega that can bee seen as sun rising from
the horizon. Milet on the Ionian coast of the Aegaean Sea was the home
of important mathematicians and astronomers and natural philosophers.
One of them, I claim, had the idea of linking the alphabet to the cycles
of hours, from sunrise to sunrise.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
You really have no idea what you're talking about.
I stand by my interpretation, whether you find it silly or silly.
Peter T. Daniels
2017-05-11 11:28:03 UTC
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Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Peter T. Daniels
That is simply not true.
Yes, it's true, taken from Harald Haarmann's book on writing, which
Oh, jeez.

*Univeralgeschichte der Schrift*?

I told him that I'd picked up his little booklet on writing at th Cologne Roemisch-
Germanisch Museum bookshop, and he told me he'd thought I didn't read German.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
I found in a thrift shop for 4 (four) Swiss francs. Haarmann had been
the director of the German Archaeological Institute at Istanbul,
responsible for the Göbekli Tepe excavation led by late Klaus Schmidt.
He gives various Greek alphabets.
None of them has 27 letters.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
For example the archaic one from Thera,
7th century BC, has a long o given as tiny circle with a central dot,
Who says it's a "long o"?
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
corresponding
Absolutely not.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
to the hieroglyph of the supreme Egyptian god Ra who
appeared in the solar disc, while the Milesian alphabet from the 6th
century BC has a genuine Omega that can bee seen as sun rising from
the horizon. Milet on the Ionian coast of the Aegaean Sea was the home
of important mathematicians and astronomers and natural philosophers.
One of them, I claim, had the idea of linking the alphabet to the cycles
of hours, from sunrise to sunrise.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
You really have no idea what you're talking about.
I stand by my interpretation, whether you find it silly or silly.
It doesn't come to that. It's based on false information.
Ruud Harmsen
2017-05-11 15:38:51 UTC
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Thu, 11 May 2017 04:28:03 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
He gives various Greek alphabets.
None of them has 27 letters.
Arabic has.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Peter T. Daniels
2017-05-11 15:49:46 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Peter T. Daniels
That is simply not true.
Yes, it's true, taken from Harald Haarmann's book on writing, which
Oh, jeez.
*Univeralgeschichte der Schrift*?
I told him that I'd picked up his little booklet on writing at th Cologne Roemisch-
Germanisch Museum bookshop, and he told me he'd thought I didn't read German.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
I found in a thrift shop for 4 (four) Swiss francs. Haarmann had been
the director of the German Archaeological Institute at Istanbul,
responsible for the Göbekli Tepe excavation led by late Klaus Schmidt.
He gives various Greek alphabets.
None of them has 27 letters.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
For example the archaic one from Thera,
7th century BC, has a long o given as tiny circle with a central dot,
corresponding
Absolutely not.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
to the hieroglyph of the supreme Egyptian god Ra who
appeared in the solar disc, while the Milesian alphabet from the 6th
century BC has a genuine Omega that can bee seen as sun rising from
the horizon. Milet on the Ionian coast of the Aegaean Sea was the home
of important mathematicians and astronomers and natural philosophers.
One of them, I claim, had the idea of linking the alphabet to the cycles
of hours, from sunrise to sunrise.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
You really have no idea what you're talking about.
I stand by my interpretation, whether you find it silly or silly.
It doesn't come to that. It's based on false information.
I've looked at Haarmann's figure (fig. 167). Thera has 22 letters. Thera and
Corinth were both known already in 1883 (Taylor) to use a dotted o (the name "omicron"
is much later) for long o.

No Greek alphabet had 27 letters. The most any of them has is 24 letters, just like
the Classical (and modern) alphabet that was standardized in 402 BCE. The "Classical"
column has 27 characters in it because the three Phoenician letters that were
retained for use as numerals are accorded their numerical place. They are not letters
of the alphabet. At no time were there 27 letters in any Greek alphabet. Those three
were discarded before any of the "supplementals" were added after T.
Franz Gnaedinger
2017-05-12 06:56:57 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
I've looked at Haarmann's figure (fig. 167). Thera has 22 letters. Thera and
Corinth were both known already in 1883 (Taylor) to use a dotted o (the name "omicron"
is much later) for long o.
No Greek alphabet had 27 letters. The most any of them has is 24 letters, just like
the Classical (and modern) alphabet that was standardized in 402 BCE. The "Classical"
column has 27 characters in it because the three Phoenician letters that were
retained for use as numerals are accorded their numerical place. They are not letters
of the alphabet. At no time were there 27 letters in any Greek alphabet. Those three
were discarded before any of the "supplementals" were added after T.
Are we speaking of the same book? Harald Haarmann, Universalgeschichte
der Schrift 'Universal History of Writing' first edition Campus 1990,
Public Library New York SASB M2, IFE 96-1255, available, use in library ?
If you go there you may also look up the book by Derk Ohlenroth on the
abaton of the Lycaean Zeus and Elaia's grove, in the same research room,
IFE 99-6189, available, use in library.
Peter T. Daniels
2017-05-12 13:41:59 UTC
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Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I've looked at Haarmann's figure (fig. 167). Thera has 22 letters. Thera and
Corinth were both known already in 1883 (Taylor) to use a dotted o (the name "omicron"
is much later) for long o.
No Greek alphabet had 27 letters. The most any of them has is 24 letters, just like
the Classical (and modern) alphabet that was standardized in 402 BCE. The "Classical"
column has 27 characters in it because the three Phoenician letters that were
retained for use as numerals are accorded their numerical place. They are not letters
of the alphabet. At no time were there 27 letters in any Greek alphabet. Those three
were discarded before any of the "supplementals" were added after T.
Are we speaking of the same book? Harald Haarmann, Universalgeschichte
der Schrift 'Universal History of Writing' first edition Campus 1990,
Public Library New York SASB M2, IFE 96-1255, available, use in library ?
If you go there you may also look up the book by Derk Ohlenroth on the
abaton of the Lycaean Zeus and Elaia's grove, in the same research room,
IFE 99-6189, available, use in library.
My copy has a penciled price of $57 on the flyleaf. What you paid for it is a lot
closer to its value.

Why are you evading the question?

Look at Fig. 167, count the letters in the columns for the various epichoric alphabets.
Franz Gnaedinger
2017-05-13 08:01:13 UTC
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from sunrise to sunrise (Ionic alphabet mirroring a day)

Milet on the Ionian coast of Anatolia was the home of important mathematicians,
astronomers, and natural philosophers. Imagine that one of them developed the
Ionic alphabet some 2,700 years ago, 24 letters that also had numerical vaules,
from Alpha = 1 via via Thaeta = 8 and Pi = 16 to Omega = 24, and that he tried
to synchronize the 24 letters with the 24 hours of a special day, summer
solstice, June 21 in our calendar, 24 hours from June 21 at 4 o'clock
to June 22 at 4 o'clock

June 21, early morning, 4 o'clock, beginning of hour 1, hour Alpha (a)
June 21, midday, 12 o'clock, end of hour 8, hour Thaeta (th)
June 21, evening, 20 o'clock, end of hour 16, hour Pi (p)
June 22, early morning, 4 o'clock, end of hour 24, hour Omega (long o)

June 21, early morning, 4 o'clock, beginning of hour 1 or hour Alpha.
Just before dawn, bright Aldebaran hovers above the eastern horizon,
main star in Taurus 'Bull', from TOR for bull in motion. Aleph then Alpha
represented the head of an ox (that can still be seen when you turn our A
upside down). This might originally have been a reference to Aldebaran,
and to Baal as golden sun calf rising from the tree of life in the morning.
The Minoan Baal was later identified with Zeus. Aldebaran and the Pleiads
were the Golden Gate of Babylonian astronomy, passed by sun and moon and
planets.

June 21, midday, 12 o'clock, end of hour 8 or hour Thaeta. Now the sun reaches
the highest point in the sky, not only the one of the day but also of the year.
In some cases the Thaeta was given as a tiny circle with a central dot, which
also was the hieroglyph of the supreme Egyptian god Ra who manifested himself
in the solar disc. In most other cases, the early Thaeta was a tiny circle
with an inscribed cross, together known as ringcross, according to my studies
the emblem of the supreme sky and weather god. TYR means to overcome in the
double sense of rule and give, emphatic Middle Helladic Sseyr (Phaistos Disc,
Derk Ohlenroth) Doric Sseus (Wilhlem Larfeld) Homeric Zeus. PAS means
everywhere (in a plain), here, south and north of me, east and west of me,
in all five places, wherefrom Greek pas pan 'all, every' and pente penta-
'five'. TYR PAS named the supreme sky and weather god who overcame everybody
everywhere in weather and time that rule our lives but are also given to us
so that we make the best of them. TYR PAS would have been visualized by
the ringcross of the Bronze Age. A strongly polished version became French
temps 'weather, time', TYR PAS English time and PAS TYR English weather.
Greek theos 'god' begins with a Thaeta and derived from DhAG meaning able,
good in the sense of able. Zeus was a most able one, supreme god in the
Greek pantheon.

June 21, evening, 20 o'clock, end of hour 16 or hour Pi. The sun disappeared
below the western horizon. One version of the early Pi that survived in the
classical Greek alphabet can be seen as a high narrow gate, so the setting
sun passed an imaginary gate in disappearing. Pi from periphaeres 'circular,
round' wherefrom English periphery named the circumference and then also
the number of the circle, here the circle of the 24 hours that were mirrored
in the Ionic alphabet of 24 letters.

June 22, early morning, end of hour 24 or hour Omega. In the archaic alphabet
from Thera, 7th century BC, the long o was given as a circle with a central
dot, hieroglyph of Ra in Egypt, whereupon the Omega, apparently invented
in Milet, evokes the solar disc rising from the horizon, and the lower case
the solar disc on the horns of Hathor, Egyptian goddess in her emanation
of the heavenly cow (especially on an Egyptian standard). The wife of Zeus
had been cow-eyed Hera, descendant of the Divine Hind from Altamira who
called life into existence, also moon bulls, thus creating time, lunations
or synodic months, periods of 30 29 30 29 30 29 30 29 30 29 30 ... days.
As Divine Hind Woman she appeared in Orion below Aldebaran where the moon
bulls waited to go on their heavenly mission, while the sun passes the
Golden Gate framed by Aldebaran and the Pleiads.

From Alpha to Omega, from dawn to dawn, from sunrise to sunrise, while
the letters of the Ionic alphabet allowed to tell what happens in a day,
and from day to day ...

---

Peter, thank you for the correction. 3 of the 27 signs of the classical
Greek alphabet are just numerals, as you told me.
Franz Gnaedinger
2017-05-16 07:20:53 UTC
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Post by Franz Gnaedinger
from sunrise to sunrise (Ionic alphabet mirroring a day)
Milet on the Ionian coast of Anatolia was the home of important mathematicians,
astronomers, and natural philosophers. Imagine that one of them developed the
Ionic alphabet some 2,700 years ago, 24 letters that also had numerical vaules,
from Alpha = 1 via via Thaeta = 8 and Pi = 16 to Omega = 24, and that he tried
to synchronize the 24 letters with the 24 hours of a special day, summer
solstice, June 21 in our calendar, 24 hours from June 21 at 4 o'clock
to June 22 at 4 o'clock
June 21, early morning, 4 o'clock, beginning of hour 1, hour Alpha (a)
June 21, midday, 12 o'clock, end of hour 8, hour Thaeta (th)
June 21, evening, 20 o'clock, end of hour 16, hour Pi (p)
June 22, early morning, 4 o'clock, end of hour 24, hour Omega (long o)
June 21, early morning, 4 o'clock, beginning of hour 1 or hour Alpha.
Just before dawn, bright Aldebaran hovers above the eastern horizon,
main star in Taurus 'Bull', from TOR for bull in motion. Aleph then Alpha
represented the head of an ox (that can still be seen when you turn our A
upside down). This might originally have been a reference to Aldebaran,
and to Baal as golden sun calf rising from the tree of life in the morning.
The Minoan Baal was later identified with Zeus. Aldebaran and the Pleiads
were the Golden Gate of Babylonian astronomy, passed by sun and moon and
planets.
June 21, midday, 12 o'clock, end of hour 8 or hour Thaeta. Now the sun reaches
the highest point in the sky, not only the one of the day but also of the year.
In some cases the Thaeta was given as a tiny circle with a central dot, which
also was the hieroglyph of the supreme Egyptian god Ra who manifested himself
in the solar disc. In most other cases, the early Thaeta was a tiny circle
with an inscribed cross, together known as ringcross, according to my studies
the emblem of the supreme sky and weather god. TYR means to overcome in the
double sense of rule and give, emphatic Middle Helladic Sseyr (Phaistos Disc,
Derk Ohlenroth) Doric Sseus (Wilhlem Larfeld) Homeric Zeus. PAS means
everywhere (in a plain), here, south and north of me, east and west of me,
in all five places, wherefrom Greek pas pan 'all, every' and pente penta-
'five'. TYR PAS named the supreme sky and weather god who overcame everybody
everywhere in weather and time that rule our lives but are also given to us
so that we make the best of them. TYR PAS would have been visualized by
the ringcross of the Bronze Age. A strongly polished version became French
temps 'weather, time', TYR PAS English time and PAS TYR English weather.
Greek theos 'god' begins with a Thaeta and derived from DhAG meaning able,
good in the sense of able. Zeus was a most able one, supreme god in the
Greek pantheon.
June 21, evening, 20 o'clock, end of hour 16 or hour Pi. The sun disappeared
below the western horizon. One version of the early Pi that survived in the
classical Greek alphabet can be seen as a high narrow gate, so the setting
sun passed an imaginary gate in disappearing. Pi from periphaeres 'circular,
round' wherefrom English periphery named the circumference and then also
the number of the circle, here the circle of the 24 hours that were mirrored
in the Ionic alphabet of 24 letters.
June 22, early morning, end of hour 24 or hour Omega. In the archaic alphabet
from Thera, 7th century BC, the long o was given as a circle with a central
dot, hieroglyph of Ra in Egypt, whereupon the Omega, apparently invented
in Milet, evokes the solar disc rising from the horizon, and the lower case
the solar disc on the horns of Hathor, Egyptian goddess in her emanation
of the heavenly cow (especially on an Egyptian standard). The wife of Zeus
had been cow-eyed Hera, descendant of the Divine Hind from Altamira who
called life into existence, also moon bulls, thus creating time, lunations
or synodic months, periods of 30 29 30 29 30 29 30 29 30 29 30 ... days.
As Divine Hind Woman she appeared in Orion below Aldebaran where the moon
bulls waited to go on their heavenly mission, while the sun passes the
Golden Gate framed by Aldebaran and the Pleiads.
From Alpha to Omega, from dawn to dawn, from sunrise to sunrise, while
the letters of the Ionic alphabet allowed to tell what happens in a day,
and from day to day ...
from sunrise to sunrise (continuation)

Is it a coincidence that the Iliad and Odyssey have
each 24 books?

Now let us consider the numbers 1 8 16 24. As beginning of hour 1 (early
morning on the summer solstice) and end of hour 8 (midday) and end of
hour 16 (later evening) and end of hour 24 (early morning again) they
divide a cycle of 24 hours into 8 plus 8 plus 8 hours. Another arrangement
of the same numbers makes them grow beyond a day in a pattern that
can be prolonged

1 = 1 x 1
1 + 8 = 3 x 3
1 + 8 + 16 = 5 x 5
1 + 8 + 16 + 24 = 7 x 7

We have then a circular movement in the hours of a day mirrored in the
Ionic alphabet, and a linear one in a sequence of days and a written text.

As for the early morning of the summer solstice, also the glorious rotunda
of Lascaux represents that moment of the year, the red mare rising above
the ledge symbolizing the midsummer sun rising above the horizon, and
the proud white bull by her side a full moon occurring at the same time,
ideal start of an eight-year period in the lunisolar calendar of Lascaux.
Peter T. Daniels
2017-05-16 12:58:29 UTC
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Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Is it a coincidence that the Iliad and Odyssey have
each 24 books?
No.
Ruud Harmsen
2017-05-16 13:54:34 UTC
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Tue, 16 May 2017 05:58:29 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Is it a coincidence that the Iliad and Odyssey have
each 24 books?
No.
Done on purpose, for reasons of metre and structure.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dactylic_hexameter#Structure
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Os_Lus%C3%ADadas#Internal_structure
etc etc.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Ruud Harmsen
2017-05-16 13:55:13 UTC
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Tue, 16 May 2017 05:58:29 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Is it a coincidence that the Iliad and Odyssey have
each 24 books?
No.
You won the annual shortest relevant answer prize.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Franz Gnaedinger
2017-05-17 07:34:24 UTC
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No.
Thank you for agreeing with me that it was not a coincidence that the Iliad
and Odyssey have each 24 books. In the links Ruud Harmsen provided I found
no reason for the 24 books (although I must confess that I only skimmed
the web pages). My explanation is that the number 24 must have played an
important role, as it is the number of letters in the Ionic alphabet,
and the number of hours in a day, with a relation between them. Milet
was most wealthy in the 7th and 6th century BC. I believe there was
enthusiasm in the air, comparable to the 1990s when computer programmers
felt like wizards or magicians. While the Ionic alphabet mirrors a cosmic
circle, the cycle of 24 hours generated by the sun revolving around the
Earth (actually by the Earth revolving around its axis), computer programming
finds a cosmic equivalent in the holographic theory that says the world
is the hologram generated by the information written on the surface of a
hollow sphere. Writing and cosmic circle, programming and cosmic sphere ...
Ruud Harmsen
2017-05-17 09:51:03 UTC
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Wed, 17 May 2017 00:34:24 -0700 (PDT): Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
My explanation is that the number 24 must have played an
important role,
24 if two times 12, which has been sacred since the invention of the
wheel and before, probably because it so nicely contains all the
factors 1, 2, 3 and 4, other that 7, which contains none.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Peter T. Daniels
2017-05-17 13:04:59 UTC
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Post by Franz Gnaedinger
No.
Thank you for agreeing with me that it was not a coincidence that the Iliad
and Odyssey have each 24 books. In the links Ruud Harmsen provided I found
no reason for the 24 books (although I must confess that I only skimmed
the web pages). My explanation is that the number 24 must have played an
important role, as it is the number of letters in the Ionic alphabet,
and the number of hours in a day,
What's your evidence of a 24-hour day in "Homer"'s time?

An old-fashioned way of referring to the books is to letter them consecutively, one
using Greek letters, the other Latin. How far back does that go?

This is _not_ the early use of the letters as numerals, because in that system they
went by enneads: 1 - 9, 10 - 90, etc.
Franz Gnaedinger
2017-05-18 06:45:49 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter T. Daniels
What's your evidence of a 24-hour day in "Homer"'s time?
As I said, already an Egyptian day had 24 hours, only that the lengths of
hours varied, on a short day in winter an hour of the day was short, and
an hour of the night long; in summer the other way round. I guess the
Milesians ended that complicated system and introduced a day of 24 hours.
Around the equinoxes day and night were equally long. In the Odyssey
I found this: when the last third of the night came to an end (or so).
If the day was 24 hours, the day 12 hours, and the night 12 hours,
one third is 4 hours; night 4 hours from 18 to 22 o'clock, 4 hours
from 22 to 2 o c'lock, 4 hours from 2 to 6 o'clock, end of night.
If I remember correctly, from a book on the mechanism of Antikythera,
that most elaborate and truly amazing machine was traced back to Milet,
or at least a most influential astronomer of the Ionian capital, and it
makes sense that those astronomers did away with the complicated 24 hours
of a day in the Egpytian system but calculated with 24 hours of the same
length each. En bref, I have no direct evidence but circumstantial one,
and rely on a dictum by the French archaeologist Cael de Guichen:
Archaeology is not an exact science, but a speculative one - a science
of imagination ... Note well: a *science* of imagination.
Peter T. Daniels
2017-05-18 11:16:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Peter T. Daniels
What's your evidence of a 24-hour day in "Homer"'s time?
As I said, already an Egyptian day had 24 hours, only that the lengths of
hours varied, on a short day in winter an hour of the day was short, and
an hour of the night long; in summer the other way round. I guess the
Milesians ended that complicated system and introduced a day of 24 hours.
Around the equinoxes day and night were equally long. In the Odyssey
I found this: when the last third of the night came to an end (or so).
If the day was 24 hours, the day 12 hours, and the night 12 hours,
one third is 4 hours; night 4 hours from 18 to 22 o'clock, 4 hours
from 22 to 2 o c'lock, 4 hours from 2 to 6 o'clock, end of night.
If I remember correctly, from a book on the mechanism of Antikythera,
that most elaborate and truly amazing machine was traced back to Milet,
or at least a most influential astronomer of the Ionian capital, and it
makes sense that those astronomers did away with the complicated 24 hours
of a day in the Egpytian system but calculated with 24 hours of the same
length each. En bref, I have no direct evidence but circumstantial one,
Archaeology is not an exact science, but a speculative one - a science
of imagination ... Note well: a *science* of imagination.
Finally you admit that there is no basis at all for your fantasies.

How many centuries ago did Cael de Guichen write that falsehood?
Franz Gnaedinger
2017-05-19 06:48:57 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Finally you admit that there is no basis at all for your fantasies.
How many centuries ago did Cael de Guichen write that falsehood?
Modern society would collapse if we returned to hours of varying lengths
depending on season and geographical latitude and local horizon: 12 longer
or shorter hours from dawn to dusk, and 12 more shorter or longer hours from
dusk to dawn. The varying hours worked for Ancient Egypt, but at one time
in the past the system was changed. My claim or hypothesis: this might have
happened on the Ionian coast of Anatlolia sometime in the Late Archaic period,
(19th till 6th century BC), perhaps a couple of decades before 700 BC. Milet
was an important center of astronomy and mathematics and natural philosophy,
and the truly astounding mechanism of Antikythera that possibly goes back to
a Milesian astronomer could not have worked with hours of varying lengths
- cogwheels can't process varying hours, they need a fixed hour.

An archaeological congress was held in Southern Germany in 1899 where
it was concluded by voting that all of cave art is a fake. That may be
your favorite model in science: let us vote about what is true and what
is not. Gael de Guichen is a French expert on cave art, and I read his
statement in an article on Lascaux in the 2000s: Archaeology is not
an exact science but a speculative one - a science of imagination.
Another dictum, guess from whom: Imagination is more important than
knowledge, for imagination embraces the whole world while knowledge
covers only what we already know (Albert Einstein, in my wording).
Franz Gnaedinger
2017-05-20 07:37:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Modern society would collapse if we returned to hours of varying lengths
depending on season and geographical latitude and local horizon: 12 longer
or shorter hours from dawn to dusk, and 12 more shorter or longer hours from
dusk to dawn. The varying hours worked for Ancient Egypt, but at one time
in the past the system was changed. My claim or hypothesis: this might have
happened on the Ionian coast of Anatlolia sometime in the Late Archaic period,
(19th till 6th century BC), perhaps a couple of decades before 700 BC. Milet
was an important center of astronomy and mathematics and natural philosophy,
and the truly astounding mechanism of Antikythera that possibly goes back to
a Milesian astronomer could not have worked with hours of varying lengths
- cogwheels can't process varying hours, they need a fixed hour.
An archaeological congress was held in Southern Germany in 1899 where
it was concluded by voting that all of cave art is a fake. That may be
your favorite model in science: let us vote about what is true and what
is not. Gael de Guichen is a French expert on cave art, and I read his
statement in an article on Lascaux in the 2000s: Archaeology is not
an exact science but a speculative one - a science of imagination.
Another dictum, guess from whom: Imagination is more important than
knowledge, for imagination embraces the whole world while knowledge
covers only what we already know (Albert Einstein, in my wording).
Googling for "day of 24 hours" I found the Egyptian version

day-time: ten hours, plus one hour for the morning twilight
and another hour for the evening twilight, in all 12 hours
night-time: 12 hours of a different length

but no information about where and when the day of 24 equal hours originated,
so I propose Milet in around 750 BC

midwinter, day-time 8 hours, night-time 16 hours
equinoxes, day-time 12 hours, night-time 12 hours
midsummer, day-time 16 hours, night-time 8 hours
average, day-time 12 hours, night-time 12 hours

Odyssey 10:470 the long days vanished - end of summer
15:392 endless nights - winter
14:483 Finally, in the last third of the night,
when the stars disappeared - average night of 12 hours,
from 2 to 6 o'clock in the morning

The midsummer cycle

8 hours from 4 to 12 o'clock
8 hours from 12 to 20 o'clock
8 hours from 20 to 4 o'clock

would have been mirrored in the Ionic alphabet, with Alpha 1, Thaeta 8,
Pi 16, Omega 24

4 o'clock, beginning of hour Alpha, dawn, sunrise
12 o'clock, end of hour Thaeta, midday
20 o'clock, end of hour Pi, sunset, dusk
4 o'clock again, end of hour Omega, dawn, sunrise

From Alpha to Omega, from dawn to dawn, from sunrise to sunrise ...

The much simpler Milesian day of 24 equal hours would have given wing
to Ionian astronomy, the rise of which later on allowed Hipparchus to
prepare the ground for the Antikythera mechanism - if he didn't design
it himself. He was born around 190 BC in the Hellenistic settlement of
Nikaia, modern Iznik, NW Anatolia, not very far from Istanbul, and then
lived and worked on Rhodes, some one hundred kilometers south of Milet.

Another explanation of the day of 24 equal hours might be seafaring.
The Egyptians avoided the sea, considering it the realm of evil Seth,
whereas the Greeks were excellent sailors, and needed orientation during
the night by observing the stars and constellations. The horizon of 360
degrees offers a simple clock: 15 degrees represent one hour.

The farther we go back in time the more the past gets fragmented. We need
plenty imagination in order to connect the fragments and fill the gaps
and by and by gain a halfway reliable picture.
Daud Deden
2017-11-30 18:33:45 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
A reader informed me about a new theory on the origin of the alphabet
[PDF]On the Origins of the Alphabet - Sino-Platonic Papers
sino-platonic.org/complete/spp196_alphabet.pdf
by BR Pellar - ‎Related articles
On the Origins of the Alphabet by. Brian R. Pellar. Victor H. Mair, Editor. Sino-Platonic Papers. Department of East Asian Languages and Civilizations. University .
We have a leading expert on the world's writing systems among us.
Comment?
I am not that leading expert on world's writing systems.

Franz, you leapt from Pellars' stellar calendar to your own diurnal sun-based concept. Why? What do you say about Pellar's work?

Peter, you claim it is silly. Why? (I'm not talking about Gordon, only Pellar.)

Pellar's diagrams are clear, showing the ties between the zodiac diagrams and the letters. He misses only Aquarius, which I have shown to derive from !Xam: aka uru = water bearer moon/month which perfectly fits aquarius and aquarium.
Peter T. Daniels
2017-11-30 20:15:51 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Daud Deden
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
A reader informed me about a new theory on the origin of the alphabet
[PDF]On the Origins of the Alphabet - Sino-Platonic Papers
sino-platonic.org/complete/spp196_alphabet.pdf
by BR Pellar - ‎Related articles
On the Origins of the Alphabet by. Brian R. Pellar. Victor H. Mair, Editor. Sino-Platonic Papers. Department of East Asian Languages and Civilizations. University .
We have a leading expert on the world's writing systems among us.
Comment?
I am not that leading expert on world's writing systems.
Franz, you leapt from Pellars' stellar calendar to your own diurnal sun-based concept. Why? What do you say about Pellar's work?
Peter, you claim it is silly. Why? (I'm not talking about Gordon, only Pellar.)
Pellar's diagrams are clear, showing the ties between the zodiac diagrams and the letters. He misses only Aquarius, which I have shown to derive from !Xam: aka uru = water bearer moon/month which perfectly fits aquarius and aquarium.
Sorry, I'm not going to slog through his articles again. They simply bear no
relation to the reality of the attested history of scripts.
Daud Deden
2017-12-03 18:36:21 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Daud Deden
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
A reader informed me about a new theory on the origin of the alphabet
[PDF]On the Origins of the Alphabet - Sino-Platonic Papers
sino-platonic.org/complete/spp196_alphabet.pdf
by BR Pellar - ‎Related articles
On the Origins of the Alphabet by. Brian R. Pellar. Victor H. Mair, Editor. Sino-Platonic Papers. Department of East Asian Languages and Civilizations. University .
We have a leading expert on the world's writing systems among us.
Comment?
I am not that leading expert on world's writing systems.
Franz, you leapt from Pellars' stellar calendar to your own diurnal sun-based concept. Why? What do you say about Pellar's work?
Peter, you claim it is silly. Why? (I'm not talking about Gordon, only Pellar.)
Pellar's diagrams are clear, showing the ties between the zodiac diagrams and the letters. He misses only Aquarius, which I have shown to derive from !Xam: aka uru = water bearer moon/month which perfectly fits aquarius and aquarium.
Sorry, I'm not going to slog through his articles again. They simply bear no
relation to the reality of the attested history of scripts.
Would you be willing to direct me to a site containing the attested history of scripts?

I am not a scriptologist. However, I consider the oldest scripts to be "proto-Phoenician" zodiac symbols that evolved into a syllabary and/or then an alphabet, only written down as temporary diagrams, [like Navajo & Tibetan sand (mandala) paintings] by astro-priests of some type on birch bark or calfskin and then burned as seasonal ceremonial spiritual offerings via smoke or offered to the 4 winds, with no deliberately kept permanent records (no (clay-stone) graven images = no animal or human representations kept, or possibly destroyed later by other groups to weaken the social memory?). Initially, they had nothing to do with inscribing societal laws or merchant accounts, but they became so with the development of grain agriculture and sedentary anonymous communities, by which time the symbols had become localized variations.
Daud Deden
2017-12-03 18:52:08 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Daud Deden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Daud Deden
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
A reader informed me about a new theory on the origin of the alphabet
[PDF]On the Origins of the Alphabet - Sino-Platonic Papers
sino-platonic.org/complete/spp196_alphabet.pdf
by BR Pellar - ‎Related articles
On the Origins of the Alphabet by. Brian R. Pellar. Victor H. Mair, Editor. Sino-Platonic Papers. Department of East Asian Languages and Civilizations. University .
We have a leading expert on the world's writing systems among us.
Comment?
I am not that leading expert on world's writing systems.
Franz, you leapt from Pellars' stellar calendar to your own diurnal sun-based concept. Why? What do you say about Pellar's work?
Peter, you claim it is silly. Why? (I'm not talking about Gordon, only Pellar.)
Pellar's diagrams are clear, showing the ties between the zodiac diagrams and the letters. He misses only Aquarius, which I have shown to derive from !Xam: aka uru = water bearer moon/month which perfectly fits aquarius and aquarium.
Sorry, I'm not going to slog through his articles again. They simply bear no
relation to the reality of the attested history of scripts.
Would you be willing to direct me to a site containing the attested history of scripts?
I am not a scriptologist. However, I consider the oldest scripts to be "proto-Phoenician" zodiac symbols that evolved into a syllabary and/or then an alphabet, only written down as temporary diagrams, [like Navajo & Tibetan sand (mandala) paintings] by astro-priests of some type on birch bark or calfskin and then burned as seasonal ceremonial spiritual offerings via smoke or offered to the 4 winds, with no deliberately kept permanent records (no (clay-stone) graven images = no animal or human representations kept, or possibly destroyed later by other groups to weaken the social memory?). Initially, they had nothing to do with inscribing societal laws or merchant accounts, but they became so with the development of grain agriculture and sedentary anonymous communities, by which time the symbols had become localized variations.
-


This Old European Culture blog website is interesting, shows that the zodiac links to animal sexual estrus-mating cycles: http://oldeuropeanculture.blogspot.com/2017/12/winter-spirit.html

"Considering that we know that Pisces (fishes), Aries (ram), Taurus (bull) and Capricorn (goat) all mark significant events in the reproductive cycle of these animals on the yearly solar cycle, I am convinced that Lepus (hare) is not where it is on the yearly solar cycle by chance...
Peter T. Daniels
2017-12-03 20:12:27 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Daud Deden
Post by Daud Deden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Daud Deden
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
A reader informed me about a new theory on the origin of the alphabet
[PDF]On the Origins of the Alphabet - Sino-Platonic Papers
sino-platonic.org/complete/spp196_alphabet.pdf
by BR Pellar - ‎Related articles
On the Origins of the Alphabet by. Brian R. Pellar. Victor H. Mair, Editor. Sino-Platonic Papers. Department of East Asian Languages and Civilizations. University .
We have a leading expert on the world's writing systems among us.
Comment?
I am not that leading expert on world's writing systems.
Franz, you leapt from Pellars' stellar calendar to your own diurnal sun-based concept. Why? What do you say about Pellar's work?
Peter, you claim it is silly. Why? (I'm not talking about Gordon, only Pellar.)
Pellar's diagrams are clear, showing the ties between the zodiac diagrams and the letters. He misses only Aquarius, which I have shown to derive from !Xam: aka uru = water bearer moon/month which perfectly fits aquarius and aquarium.
Sorry, I'm not going to slog through his articles again. They simply bear no
relation to the reality of the attested history of scripts.
Would you be willing to direct me to a site containing the attested history of scripts?
I am not a scriptologist. However, I consider the oldest scripts to be "proto-Phoenician" zodiac symbols that evolved into a syllabary and/or then an alphabet, only written down as temporary diagrams, [like Navajo & Tibetan sand (mandala) paintings] by astro-priests of some type on birch bark or calfskin and then burned as seasonal ceremonial spiritual offerings via smoke or offered to the 4 winds, with no deliberately kept permanent records (no (clay-stone) graven images = no animal or human representations kept, or possibly destroyed later by other groups to weaken the social memory?). Initially, they had nothing to do with inscribing societal laws or merchant accounts, but they became so with the development of grain agriculture and sedentary anonymous communities, by which time the symbols had become localized variations.
-
This Old European Culture blog website is interesting, shows that the zodiac links to animal sexual estrus-mating cycles: http://oldeuropeanculture.blogspot.com/2017/12/winter-spirit.html
"Considering that we know that Pisces (fishes), Aries (ram), Taurus (bull) and Capricorn (goat) all mark significant events in the reproductive cycle of these animals on the yearly solar cycle, I am convinced that Lepus (hare) is not where it is on the yearly solar cycle by chance...
Um, "Lepus (hare)" isn't on the Zodiac, which your other three examples are.
Since it's south of Orion (between about -10 and -30), it's well south of the
Ecliptic and thus well outside the yearly solar cycle, not on it "where it is"
at all.
Daud Deden
2017-12-04 19:41:14 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Daud Deden
Post by Daud Deden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Daud Deden
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
A reader informed me about a new theory on the origin of the alphabet
[PDF]On the Origins of the Alphabet - Sino-Platonic Papers
sino-platonic.org/complete/spp196_alphabet.pdf
by BR Pellar - ‎Related articles
On the Origins of the Alphabet by. Brian R. Pellar. Victor H. Mair, Editor. Sino-Platonic Papers. Department of East Asian Languages and Civilizations. University .
We have a leading expert on the world's writing systems among us.
Comment?
I am not that leading expert on world's writing systems.
Franz, you leapt from Pellars' stellar calendar to your own diurnal sun-based concept. Why? What do you say about Pellar's work?
Peter, you claim it is silly. Why? (I'm not talking about Gordon, only Pellar.)
Pellar's diagrams are clear, showing the ties between the zodiac diagrams and the letters. He misses only Aquarius, which I have shown to derive from !Xam: aka uru = water bearer moon/month which perfectly fits aquarius and aquarium.
Sorry, I'm not going to slog through his articles again. They simply bear no
relation to the reality of the attested history of scripts.
Would you be willing to direct me to a site containing the attested history of scripts?
I am not a scriptologist. However, I consider the oldest scripts to be "proto-Phoenician" zodiac symbols that evolved into a syllabary and/or then an alphabet, only written down as temporary diagrams, [like Navajo & Tibetan sand (mandala) paintings] by astro-priests of some type on birch bark or calfskin and then burned as seasonal ceremonial spiritual offerings via smoke or offered to the 4 winds, with no deliberately kept permanent records (no (clay-stone) graven images = no animal or human representations kept, or possibly destroyed later by other groups to weaken the social memory?). Initially, they had nothing to do with inscribing societal laws or merchant accounts, but they became so with the development of grain agriculture and sedentary anonymous communities, by which time the symbols had become localized variations.
-
This Old European Culture blog website is interesting, shows that the zodiac links to animal sexual estrus-mating cycles: http://oldeuropeanculture.blogspot.com/2017/12/winter-spirit.html
"Considering that we know that Pisces (fishes), Aries (ram), Taurus (bull) and Capricorn (goat) all mark significant events in the reproductive cycle of these animals on the yearly solar cycle, I am convinced that Lepus (hare) is not where it is on the yearly solar cycle by chance...
Um, "Lepus (hare)" isn't on the Zodiac, which your other three examples are.
Since it's south of Orion (between about -10 and -30), it's well south of the
Ecliptic and thus well outside the yearly solar cycle, not on it "where it is"
at all.
Was it outside the solar cycle 7.7ka?

Old European Culture blogger's zodiac is faunal reproduction & solar cycle based, while Brian Pellar's zodiac is stellar constellation based.

I suggested at the OEC blogger's site that possibly the solar one was gatherers/gardeners-planters, the astro one was nomadic hunters/herders, which due to prevalence of vellum/calfskin and branded their livestock.
Peter T. Daniels
2017-12-04 20:55:43 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Daud Deden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Daud Deden
This Old European Culture blog website is interesting, shows that the zodiac links to animal sexual estrus-mating cycles: http://oldeuropeanculture.blogspot.com/2017/12/winter-spirit.html
"Considering that we know that Pisces (fishes), Aries (ram), Taurus (bull) and Capricorn (goat) all mark significant events in the reproductive cycle of these animals on the yearly solar cycle, I am convinced that Lepus (hare) is not where it is on the yearly solar cycle by chance...
Um, "Lepus (hare)" isn't on the Zodiac, which your other three examples are.
Since it's south of Orion (between about -10 and -30), it's well south of the
Ecliptic and thus well outside the yearly solar cycle, not on it "where it is"
at all.
Was it outside the solar cycle 7.7ka?
The plane of the ecliptic (the tilt of Earth's orbit) has not changed by some
20 degrees in less than 8000 years.
Daud Deden
2017-12-05 01:05:42 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Um, "Lepus (hare)" isn't on the Zodiac, which your other three examples are.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Since it's south of Orion (between about -10 and -30), it's well south of the
Ecliptic and thus well outside the yearly solar cycle, not on it "where it is"
at all.
Was it outside the solar cycle 7.7ka?
The plane of the ecliptic (the tilt of Earth's orbit) has not changed by some
20 degrees in less than 8000 years.
-
Good. An anomaly is that the blogger usually avoids astral constellations, (in his older posts) focusing on the sun & reproductive seasons & the Celtic cycle. I actually meant THAT solar cycle, not what you referred to.
DKleinecke
2017-12-03 19:16:13 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Daud Deden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Daud Deden
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
A reader informed me about a new theory on the origin of the alphabet
[PDF]On the Origins of the Alphabet - Sino-Platonic Papers
sino-platonic.org/complete/spp196_alphabet.pdf
by BR Pellar - ‎Related articles
On the Origins of the Alphabet by. Brian R. Pellar. Victor H. Mair, Editor. Sino-Platonic Papers. Department of East Asian Languages and Civilizations. University .
We have a leading expert on the world's writing systems among us.
Comment?
I am not that leading expert on world's writing systems.
Franz, you leapt from Pellars' stellar calendar to your own diurnal sun-based concept. Why? What do you say about Pellar's work?
Peter, you claim it is silly. Why? (I'm not talking about Gordon, only Pellar.)
Pellar's diagrams are clear, showing the ties between the zodiac diagrams and the letters. He misses only Aquarius, which I have shown to derive from !Xam: aka uru = water bearer moon/month which perfectly fits aquarius and aquarium.
Sorry, I'm not going to slog through his articles again. They simply bear no
relation to the reality of the attested history of scripts.
Would you be willing to direct me to a site containing the attested history of scripts?
I am not a scriptologist. However, I consider the oldest scripts to be "proto-Phoenician" zodiac symbols that evolved into a syllabary and/or then an alphabet, only written down as temporary diagrams, [like Navajo & Tibetan sand (mandala) paintings] by astro-priests of some type on birch bark or calfskin and then burned as seasonal ceremonial spiritual offerings via smoke or offered to the 4 winds, with no deliberately kept permanent records (no (clay-stone) graven images = no animal or human representations kept, or possibly destroyed later by other groups to weaken the social memory?). Initially, they had nothing to do with inscribing societal laws or merchant accounts, but they became so with the development of grain agriculture and sedentary anonymous communities, by which time the symbols had become localized variations.
PTD is probably the top world expert on scripts in general.
He has a book coming out soon you should read.
Arnaud Fournet
2017-12-03 20:10:51 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by DKleinecke
Post by Daud Deden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Daud Deden
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
A reader informed me about a new theory on the origin of the alphabet
[PDF]On the Origins of the Alphabet - Sino-Platonic Papers
sino-platonic.org/complete/spp196_alphabet.pdf
by BR Pellar - ‎Related articles
On the Origins of the Alphabet by. Brian R. Pellar. Victor H. Mair, Editor. Sino-Platonic Papers. Department of East Asian Languages and Civilizations. University .
We have a leading expert on the world's writing systems among us.
Comment?
I am not that leading expert on world's writing systems.
Franz, you leapt from Pellars' stellar calendar to your own diurnal sun-based concept. Why? What do you say about Pellar's work?
Peter, you claim it is silly. Why? (I'm not talking about Gordon, only Pellar.)
Pellar's diagrams are clear, showing the ties between the zodiac diagrams and the letters. He misses only Aquarius, which I have shown to derive from !Xam: aka uru = water bearer moon/month which perfectly fits aquarius and aquarium.
Sorry, I'm not going to slog through his articles again. They simply bear no
relation to the reality of the attested history of scripts.
Would you be willing to direct me to a site containing the attested history of scripts?
I am not a scriptologist. However, I consider the oldest scripts to be "proto-Phoenician" zodiac symbols that evolved into a syllabary and/or then an alphabet, only written down as temporary diagrams, [like Navajo & Tibetan sand (mandala) paintings] by astro-priests of some type on birch bark or calfskin and then burned as seasonal ceremonial spiritual offerings via smoke or offered to the 4 winds, with no deliberately kept permanent records (no (clay-stone) graven images = no animal or human representations kept, or possibly destroyed later by other groups to weaken the social memory?). Initially, they had nothing to do with inscribing societal laws or merchant accounts, but they became so with the development of grain agriculture and sedentary anonymous communities, by which time the symbols had become localized variations.
PTD is probably the top world expert on scripts in general.
He has a book coming out soon you should read.
No, he's incompetent on LinearA, incompetent on EteoCypriot, incompetent on Cuneiform.
PTD is just a pontificating idiot, he's **not** an expert, let alone "the top world expert on scripts in general". You're severely mistaken.
A.
Peter T. Daniels
2017-12-04 12:22:07 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Post by DKleinecke
Post by Daud Deden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Daud Deden
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
A reader informed me about a new theory on the origin of the alphabet
[PDF]On the Origins of the Alphabet - Sino-Platonic Papers
sino-platonic.org/complete/spp196_alphabet.pdf
by BR Pellar - ‎Related articles
On the Origins of the Alphabet by. Brian R. Pellar. Victor H. Mair, Editor. Sino-Platonic Papers. Department of East Asian Languages and Civilizations. University .
We have a leading expert on the world's writing systems among us.
Comment?
I am not that leading expert on world's writing systems.
Franz, you leapt from Pellars' stellar calendar to your own diurnal sun-based concept. Why? What do you say about Pellar's work?
Peter, you claim it is silly. Why? (I'm not talking about Gordon, only Pellar.)
Pellar's diagrams are clear, showing the ties between the zodiac diagrams and the letters. He misses only Aquarius, which I have shown to derive from !Xam: aka uru = water bearer moon/month which perfectly fits aquarius and aquarium.
Sorry, I'm not going to slog through his articles again. They simply bear no
relation to the reality of the attested history of scripts.
Would you be willing to direct me to a site containing the attested history of scripts?
I am not a scriptologist. However, I consider the oldest scripts to be "proto-Phoenician" zodiac symbols that evolved into a syllabary and/or then an alphabet, only written down as temporary diagrams, [like Navajo & Tibetan sand (mandala) paintings] by astro-priests of some type on birch bark or calfskin and then burned as seasonal ceremonial spiritual offerings via smoke or offered to the 4 winds, with no deliberately kept permanent records (no (clay-stone) graven images = no animal or human representations kept, or possibly destroyed later by other groups to weaken the social memory?). Initially, they had nothing to do with inscribing societal laws or merchant accounts, but they became so with the development of grain agriculture and sedentary anonymous communities, by which time the symbols had become localized variations.
PTD is probably the top world expert on scripts in general.
He has a book coming out soon you should read.
No, he's incompetent on LinearA, incompetent on EteoCypriot, incompetent on Cuneiform.
PTD is just a pontificating idiot, he's **not** an expert, let alone "the top world expert on scripts in general". You're severely mistaken.
A.
AF (who arrogantly signs himself "A." after every paragraph) credulously accepts uncritically
non-"decipherments" of eastern Mediterranean scripts for which insufficient material is available
and no decipherment has been achieved. He probably even has a favorite Ph****os D**k interpretation
that isn't the one favored by one of our other crackpots.
Arnaud Fournet
2017-12-05 07:16:13 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Post by DKleinecke
Post by Daud Deden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Daud Deden
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
A reader informed me about a new theory on the origin of the alphabet
[PDF]On the Origins of the Alphabet - Sino-Platonic Papers
sino-platonic.org/complete/spp196_alphabet.pdf
by BR Pellar - ‎Related articles
On the Origins of the Alphabet by. Brian R. Pellar. Victor H. Mair, Editor. Sino-Platonic Papers. Department of East Asian Languages and Civilizations. University .
We have a leading expert on the world's writing systems among us.
Comment?
I am not that leading expert on world's writing systems.
Franz, you leapt from Pellars' stellar calendar to your own diurnal sun-based concept. Why? What do you say about Pellar's work?
Peter, you claim it is silly. Why? (I'm not talking about Gordon, only Pellar.)
Pellar's diagrams are clear, showing the ties between the zodiac diagrams and the letters. He misses only Aquarius, which I have shown to derive from !Xam: aka uru = water bearer moon/month which perfectly fits aquarius and aquarium.
Sorry, I'm not going to slog through his articles again. They simply bear no
relation to the reality of the attested history of scripts.
Would you be willing to direct me to a site containing the attested history of scripts?
I am not a scriptologist. However, I consider the oldest scripts to be "proto-Phoenician" zodiac symbols that evolved into a syllabary and/or then an alphabet, only written down as temporary diagrams, [like Navajo & Tibetan sand (mandala) paintings] by astro-priests of some type on birch bark or calfskin and then burned as seasonal ceremonial spiritual offerings via smoke or offered to the 4 winds, with no deliberately kept permanent records (no (clay-stone) graven images = no animal or human representations kept, or possibly destroyed later by other groups to weaken the social memory?). Initially, they had nothing to do with inscribing societal laws or merchant accounts, but they became so with the development of grain agriculture and sedentary anonymous communities, by which time the symbols had become localized variations.
PTD is probably the top world expert on scripts in general.
He has a book coming out soon you should read.
No, he's incompetent on LinearA, incompetent on EteoCypriot, incompetent on Cuneiform.
PTD is just a pontificating idiot, he's **not** an expert, let alone "the top world expert on scripts in general". You're severely mistaken.
A.
AF (who arrogantly signs himself "A." after every paragraph)
I see nothing arrogants in signing A.
What's your beef, shithead?
A.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
credulously accepts uncritically
non-"decipherments" of eastern Mediterranean scripts
No, I don't.
I deciphered on my own Eteocypriot and part of LinearA as Hurrian.
You're a man of the past.
The only thing you can do is repeat your altzheimer theories.
I'm science in the making.
A.

for which insufficient material is available
Post by Peter T. Daniels
and no decipherment has been achieved. He probably even has a favorite Ph****os D**k interpretation
that isn't the one favored by one of our other crackpots.
Altzheimer droolings as usual off PTD's shitmouth.
A.
Peter T. Daniels
2017-12-05 13:23:14 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Post by DKleinecke
Post by Daud Deden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Daud Deden
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
A reader informed me about a new theory on the origin of the alphabet
[PDF]On the Origins of the Alphabet - Sino-Platonic Papers
sino-platonic.org/complete/spp196_alphabet.pdf
by BR Pellar - ‎Related articles
On the Origins of the Alphabet by. Brian R. Pellar. Victor H. Mair, Editor. Sino-Platonic Papers. Department of East Asian Languages and Civilizations. University .
We have a leading expert on the world's writing systems among us.
Comment?
I am not that leading expert on world's writing systems.
Franz, you leapt from Pellars' stellar calendar to your own diurnal sun-based concept. Why? What do you say about Pellar's work?
Peter, you claim it is silly. Why? (I'm not talking about Gordon, only Pellar.)
Pellar's diagrams are clear, showing the ties between the zodiac diagrams and the letters. He misses only Aquarius, which I have shown to derive from !Xam: aka uru = water bearer moon/month which perfectly fits aquarius and aquarium.
Sorry, I'm not going to slog through his articles again. They simply bear no
relation to the reality of the attested history of scripts.
Would you be willing to direct me to a site containing the attested history of scripts?
I am not a scriptologist. However, I consider the oldest scripts to be "proto-Phoenician" zodiac symbols that evolved into a syllabary and/or then an alphabet, only written down as temporary diagrams, [like Navajo & Tibetan sand (mandala) paintings] by astro-priests of some type on birch bark or calfskin and then burned as seasonal ceremonial spiritual offerings via smoke or offered to the 4 winds, with no deliberately kept permanent records (no (clay-stone) graven images = no animal or human representations kept, or possibly destroyed later by other groups to weaken the social memory?). Initially, they had nothing to do with inscribing societal laws or merchant accounts, but they became so with the development of grain agriculture and sedentary anonymous communities, by which time the symbols had become localized variations.
PTD is probably the top world expert on scripts in general.
He has a book coming out soon you should read.
No, he's incompetent on LinearA, incompetent on EteoCypriot, incompetent on Cuneiform.
PTD is just a pontificating idiot, he's **not** an expert, let alone "the top world expert on scripts in general". You're severely mistaken.
A.
AF (who arrogantly signs himself "A." after every paragraph)
I see nothing arrogants in signing A.
What's your beef, shithead?
A.
Three times in four sentences?

And it just _happens_ to be the first letter?
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
credulously accepts uncritically
non-"decipherments" of eastern Mediterranean scripts
No, I don't.
I deciphered on my own Eteocypriot and part of LinearA as Hurrian.
You're a man of the past.
The only thing you can do is repeat your altzheimer theories.
I'm science in the making.
A.
How many Hurritologists have accepted this "partial" decipherment? Where has
it been taken up in the literature? How do you decipher "part of" a script?
What's the material evidence for Hurrian presence on Crete and Cyprus?
Post by Arnaud Fournet
for which insufficient material is available
Post by Peter T. Daniels
and no decipherment has been achieved. He probably even has a favorite Ph****os D**k interpretation
that isn't the one favored by one of our other crackpots.
Altzheimer droolings as usual off PTD's shitmouth.
A.
Not to mention the perpetual grapho-Tourette's.
Arnaud Fournet
2017-12-05 21:31:21 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Post by DKleinecke
Post by Daud Deden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Daud Deden
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
A reader informed me about a new theory on the origin of the alphabet
[PDF]On the Origins of the Alphabet - Sino-Platonic Papers
sino-platonic.org/complete/spp196_alphabet.pdf
by BR Pellar - ‎Related articles
On the Origins of the Alphabet by. Brian R. Pellar. Victor H. Mair, Editor. Sino-Platonic Papers. Department of East Asian Languages and Civilizations. University .
We have a leading expert on the world's writing systems among us.
Comment?
I am not that leading expert on world's writing systems.
Franz, you leapt from Pellars' stellar calendar to your own diurnal sun-based concept. Why? What do you say about Pellar's work?
Peter, you claim it is silly. Why? (I'm not talking about Gordon, only Pellar.)
Pellar's diagrams are clear, showing the ties between the zodiac diagrams and the letters. He misses only Aquarius, which I have shown to derive from !Xam: aka uru = water bearer moon/month which perfectly fits aquarius and aquarium.
Sorry, I'm not going to slog through his articles again. They simply bear no
relation to the reality of the attested history of scripts.
Would you be willing to direct me to a site containing the attested history of scripts?
I am not a scriptologist. However, I consider the oldest scripts to be "proto-Phoenician" zodiac symbols that evolved into a syllabary and/or then an alphabet, only written down as temporary diagrams, [like Navajo & Tibetan sand (mandala) paintings] by astro-priests of some type on birch bark or calfskin and then burned as seasonal ceremonial spiritual offerings via smoke or offered to the 4 winds, with no deliberately kept permanent records (no (clay-stone) graven images = no animal or human representations kept, or possibly destroyed later by other groups to weaken the social memory?). Initially, they had nothing to do with inscribing societal laws or merchant accounts, but they became so with the development of grain agriculture and sedentary anonymous communities, by which time the symbols had become localized variations.
PTD is probably the top world expert on scripts in general.
He has a book coming out soon you should read.
No, he's incompetent on LinearA, incompetent on EteoCypriot, incompetent on Cuneiform.
PTD is just a pontificating idiot, he's **not** an expert, let alone "the top world expert on scripts in general". You're severely mistaken.
A.
AF (who arrogantly signs himself "A." after every paragraph)
I see nothing arrogants in signing A.
What's your beef, shithead?
A.
Three times in four sentences?
And it just _happens_ to be the first letter?
yes, I'm not responsible if my mother chose to call me with an A-initial name.
Do you (=PTD) have a mother, shithead?
A.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
credulously accepts uncritically
non-"decipherments" of eastern Mediterranean scripts
No, I don't.
I deciphered on my own Eteocypriot and part of LinearA as Hurrian.
You're a man of the past.
The only thing you can do is repeat your altzheimer theories.
I'm science in the making.
A.
How many Hurritologists have accepted this "partial" decipherment? Where has
it been taken up in the literature?
It took about one generation, before Knutzon would recognized right in thinking that Hittite was indo-european.
I'm not in a hurry.
A.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
How do you decipher "part of" a script?
It means some of the inscriptions belong to another language, that has its own phonetic signature.
As you (=PTD) have never done any concrete work, apart from parading your ass, you don't have any idea what deciphering means.
A.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
What's the material evidence for Hurrian presence on Crete and Cyprus?
Read what I write, Altzheimer, and you'll know.
A.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Arnaud Fournet
for which insufficient material is available
Post by Peter T. Daniels
and no decipherment has been achieved. He probably even has a favorite Ph****os D**k interpretation
that isn't the one favored by one of our other crackpots.
Altzheimer droolings as usual off PTD's shitmouth.
A.
Not to mention the perpetual grapho-Tourette's.
on your side ?
A.
Peter T. Daniels
2017-12-06 04:10:03 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Post by DKleinecke
PTD is probably the top world expert on scripts in general.
He has a book coming out soon you should read.
No, he's incompetent on LinearA, incompetent on EteoCypriot, incompetent on Cuneiform.
PTD is just a pontificating idiot, he's **not** an expert, let alone "the top world expert on scripts in general". You're severely mistaken.
AF (who arrogantly signs himself "A." after every paragraph)
I see nothing arrogants in signing A.
What's your beef, shithead?
Three times in four sentences?
And it just _happens_ to be the first letter?
yes, I'm not responsible if my mother chose to call me with an A-initial name.
Do you (=PTD) have a mother, shithead?
I feel no egotistical reason to put "PTD" after every sentence I post.

And I use "PTD," not "P," Tourette.
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
credulously accepts uncritically
non-"decipherments" of eastern Mediterranean scripts
No, I don't.
I deciphered on my own Eteocypriot and part of LinearA as Hurrian.
You're a man of the past.
The only thing you can do is repeat your altzheimer theories.
I'm science in the making.
How many Hurritologists have accepted this "partial" decipherment? Where has
it been taken up in the literature?
It took about one generation, before Knutzon would recognized right in thinking that Hittite was indo-european.
I'm not in a hurry.
How many Hurritologists have considered it and found it wanting?

Apparently you don't know that Knudtzon's work was disregarded -- dismissed in
Eduard Meyer's introduction to Hrozny's publication, and ignored in J. D.
Hawkins's edition of the Hittite tablets from Amarna. (I discuss this in my
chapter in press in the Blackwell Companion to the Languages of the Ancient
Near East). He was not "recognized as right" until I happened upon his discussion.
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
How do you decipher "part of" a script?
It means some of the inscriptions belong to another language, that has its own phonetic signature.
As you (=PTD) have never done any concrete work, apart from parading your ass, you don't have any idea what deciphering means.
Naah, I've only written any number of descriptions of decipherments.

If your attempts were published, I might try determining whether your methods
lend confidence to whatever interpretations you may have come up with.
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
What's the material evidence for Hurrian presence on Crete and Cyprus?
Read what I write, Altzheimer, and you'll know.
Then publish it, Tourette. And not at a vanity website, but in an actual
journal refereed by people who know what they're talking about.
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Arnaud Fournet
for which insufficient material is available
Post by Peter T. Daniels
and no decipherment has been achieved. He probably even has a favorite Ph****os D**k interpretation
that isn't the one favored by one of our other crackpots.
Altzheimer droolings as usual off PTD's shitmouth.
Not to mention the perpetual grapho-Tourette's.
Arnaud Fournet
2017-12-06 08:39:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Arnaud Fournet
yes, I'm not responsible if my mother chose to call me with an A-initial name.
Do you (=PTD) have a mother, shithead?
I feel no egotistical reason to put "PTD" after every sentence I post.
And I use "PTD," not "P," Tourette.
I find it nice to know easily who wrote what.
A.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Arnaud Fournet
It took about one generation, before Knutzon would recognized right in thinking that Hittite was indo-european.
I'm not in a hurry.
How many Hurritologists have considered it and found it wanting?
Apparently you don't know that Knudtzon's work was disregarded
Apparently you're still the same idiot who can't read.
I know Knudtzon's work was sneered at, before it was finally accepted,
that's why I wrote "I'm not in a hurry".
I know it will take some indeterminate time until my theory is accepted.
In the meantime, I'm working on improving it and building more material for the moment it will finally be accepted.
A.


-- dismissed in
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Eduard Meyer's introduction to Hrozny's publication, and ignored in J. D.
Hawkins's edition of the Hittite tablets from Amarna. (I discuss this in my
chapter in press in the Blackwell Companion to the Languages of the Ancient
Near East). He was not "recognized as right" until I happened upon his discussion.
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
How do you decipher "part of" a script?
It means some of the inscriptions belong to another language, that has its own phonetic signature.
As you (=PTD) have never done any concrete work, apart from parading your ass, you don't have any idea what deciphering means.
Naah, I've only written any number of descriptions of decipherments.
If your attempts were published, I might try determining whether your methods
lend confidence to whatever interpretations you may have come up with.
I don't care about your incompetent "assessments".
You're an idle jerk who pontificates on the works of other peoples.
You're a parasite.
A.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
What's the material evidence for Hurrian presence on Crete and Cyprus?
Read what I write, Altzheimer, and you'll know.
Then publish it, Tourette. And not at a vanity website, but in an actual
journal refereed by people who know what they're talking about.
I know what I'm talking about.
I've read and analyzed Hurrian tablets about Gilgames that had not been understood since 1913.
Anyway, I'm quite fed up with peer-review-by-idiots, and I now tend to work and publish on my own, and then Mother Providence will do the rest.
A.
Peter T. Daniels
2017-12-06 13:29:38 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Arnaud Fournet
yes, I'm not responsible if my mother chose to call me with an A-initial name.
Do you (=PTD) have a mother, shithead?
I feel no egotistical reason to put "PTD" after every sentence I post.
And I use "PTD," not "P," Tourette.
I find it nice to know easily who wrote what.
If you can't recognize your own words, you're more pathetic than we've thought.
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Arnaud Fournet
It took about one generation, before Knutzon would recognized right in thinking that Hittite was indo-european.
Apparently you don't know that Knudtzon's work was disregarded
Apparently you're still the same idiot who can't read.
I know Knudtzon's work was sneered at, before it was finally accepted.
Show me where it was "finally accepted."

Only Hrozny receives the credit.
Arnaud Fournet
2017-12-06 20:53:45 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Arnaud Fournet
yes, I'm not responsible if my mother chose to call me with an A-initial name.
Do you (=PTD) have a mother, shithead?
I feel no egotistical reason to put "PTD" after every sentence I post.
And I use "PTD," not "P," Tourette.
I find it nice to know easily who wrote what.
If you can't recognize your own words, you're more pathetic than we've thought.
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Arnaud Fournet
It took about one generation, before Knutzon would recognized right in thinking that Hittite was indo-european.
Apparently you don't know that Knudtzon's work was disregarded
Apparently you're still the same idiot who can't read.
I know Knudtzon's work was sneered at, before it was finally accepted.
Show me where it was "finally accepted."
Only Hrozny receives the credit.
your opinion, shithead.
More serious and competent sources think otherwise.
https://books.google.fr/books?id=TY3t4y_L5SQC&dq=hittite+knudtzon&hl=fr&source=gbs_navlinks_s
Peter T. Daniels
2017-12-07 04:09:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Arnaud Fournet
yes, I'm not responsible if my mother chose to call me with an A-initial name.
Do you (=PTD) have a mother, shithead?
I feel no egotistical reason to put "PTD" after every sentence I post.
And I use "PTD," not "P," Tourette.
I find it nice to know easily who wrote what.
If you can't recognize your own words, you're more pathetic than we've thought.
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Arnaud Fournet
It took about one generation, before Knutzon would recognized right in thinking that Hittite was indo-european.
Apparently you don't know that Knudtzon's work was disregarded
Apparently you're still the same idiot who can't read.
I know Knudtzon's work was sneered at, before it was finally accepted.
Show me where it was "finally accepted."
Only Hrozny receives the credit.
your opinion, shithead.
More serious and competent sources think otherwise.
https://books.google.fr/books?id=TY3t4y_L5SQC&dq=hittite+knudtzon&hl=fr&source=gbs_navlinks_s
The Tourette moron sends me to a book page, not to a passage in that book
showing that Knudtzon had found some measure of appreciation more than a
century after his publications.
Arnaud Fournet
2017-12-07 12:12:30 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Arnaud Fournet
yes, I'm not responsible if my mother chose to call me with an A-initial name.
Do you (=PTD) have a mother, shithead?
I feel no egotistical reason to put "PTD" after every sentence I post.
And I use "PTD," not "P," Tourette.
I find it nice to know easily who wrote what.
If you can't recognize your own words, you're more pathetic than we've thought.
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Arnaud Fournet
It took about one generation, before Knutzon would recognized right in thinking that Hittite was indo-european.
Apparently you don't know that Knudtzon's work was disregarded
Apparently you're still the same idiot who can't read.
I know Knudtzon's work was sneered at, before it was finally accepted.
Show me where it was "finally accepted."
Only Hrozny receives the credit.
your opinion, shithead.
More serious and competent sources think otherwise.
https://books.google.fr/books?id=TY3t4y_L5SQC&dq=hittite+knudtzon&hl=fr&source=gbs_navlinks_s
The Tourette moron sends me to a book page, not to a passage in that book
showing that Knudtzon had found some measure of appreciation more than a
century after his publications.
ok, so you are the Tourette moron, that haunts your poor days of ignorance.
Read again, jerk.
A.
DKleinecke
2017-12-06 19:19:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Arnaud Fournet
I've read and analyzed Hurrian tablets about Gilgames that had not been understood since 1913.
They were understood before 1913?
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Anyway, I'm quite fed up with peer-review-by-idiots, and I now
tend to work and publish on my own, and then Mother Providence
will do the rest.
.
I'm quite sympathetic with your objections to the current way
of doing business - but there must be someway for you to get
feedback. The place where you put the Eteocyprian paper will
not do - I forget just now but there was something about it
that made me reluctant to go in.

You might pull a Franz and "publish" here on sci.lang. Your
work would be in a place where everyone can see it and you
would probably get feedback.
Peter T. Daniels
2017-12-06 19:41:53 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by DKleinecke
Post by Arnaud Fournet
I've read and analyzed Hurrian tablets about Gilgames that had not been understood since 1913.
They were understood before 1913?
In 1924, Arthur Ungnad discussed "Das hurritische Fragment des Gilgamesch-Epos"
(ZA 35: 133-40), but he was premature; Speiser criticized the article 15 years
later.
Post by DKleinecke
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Anyway, I'm quite fed up with peer-review-by-idiots, and I now
tend to work and publish on my own, and then Mother Providence
will do the rest.
.
I'm quite sympathetic with your objections to the current way
of doing business - but there must be someway for you to get
feedback. The place where you put the Eteocyprian paper will
not do - I forget just now but there was something about it
that made me reluctant to go in.
You might pull a Franz and "publish" here on sci.lang. Your
work would be in a place where everyone can see it and you
would probably get feedback.
Arnaud Fournet
2017-12-06 20:57:54 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by DKleinecke
Post by Arnaud Fournet
I've read and analyzed Hurrian tablets about Gilgames that had not been understood since 1913.
They were understood before 1913?
I suppose they were understood by the scribes, some 3400 years ago.
A.
Post by DKleinecke
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Anyway, I'm quite fed up with peer-review-by-idiots, and I now
tend to work and publish on my own, and then Mother Providence
will do the rest.
.
I'm quite sympathetic with your objections to the current way
of doing business - but there must be someway for you to get
feedback. The place where you put the Eteocyprian paper will
not do - I forget just now but there was something about it
that made me reluctant to go in.
You might pull a Franz and "publish" here on sci.lang. Your
work would be in a place where everyone can see it and you
would probably get feedback.
I don't know. This is quite difficult here.
I would rather go on Academia.edu for that kind of things.
A.
DKleinecke
2017-12-06 21:06:35 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Post by DKleinecke
Post by Arnaud Fournet
I've read and analyzed Hurrian tablets about Gilgames that had not been understood since 1913.
They were understood before 1913?
I suppose they were understood by the scribes, some 3400 years ago.
A.
Post by DKleinecke
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Anyway, I'm quite fed up with peer-review-by-idiots, and I now
tend to work and publish on my own, and then Mother Providence
will do the rest.
.
I'm quite sympathetic with your objections to the current way
of doing business - but there must be someway for you to get
feedback. The place where you put the Eteocyprian paper will
not do - I forget just now but there was something about it
that made me reluctant to go in.
You might pull a Franz and "publish" here on sci.lang. Your
work would be in a place where everyone can see it and you
would probably get feedback.
I don't know. This is quite difficult here.
I would rather go on Academia.edu for that kind of things.
I think Academia - never too easy to use - has come apart
recently. They keep sending me notices that someone has
referenced something of mine and asking for money to see
who it was.
Arnaud Fournet
2017-12-06 21:20:19 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by DKleinecke
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Post by DKleinecke
Post by Arnaud Fournet
I've read and analyzed Hurrian tablets about Gilgames that had not been understood since 1913.
They were understood before 1913?
I suppose they were understood by the scribes, some 3400 years ago.
A.
Post by DKleinecke
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Anyway, I'm quite fed up with peer-review-by-idiots, and I now
tend to work and publish on my own, and then Mother Providence
will do the rest.
.
I'm quite sympathetic with your objections to the current way
of doing business - but there must be someway for you to get
feedback. The place where you put the Eteocyprian paper will
not do - I forget just now but there was something about it
that made me reluctant to go in.
You might pull a Franz and "publish" here on sci.lang. Your
work would be in a place where everyone can see it and you
would probably get feedback.
I don't know. This is quite difficult here.
I would rather go on Academia.edu for that kind of things.
I think Academia - never too easy to use - has come apart
recently. They keep sending me notices that someone has
referenced something of mine and asking for money to see
who it was.
Well, I find Academia quite easy to use.
They keep trying to entice people to become subscriber, but I don't care.
I keep using it on a free basis.
A.
António Marques
2017-12-06 21:42:07 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by DKleinecke
Post by Arnaud Fournet
I've read and analyzed Hurrian tablets about Gilgames that had not been
understood since 1913.
They were understood before 1913?
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Anyway, I'm quite fed up with peer-review-by-idiots, and I now
tend to work and publish on my own, and then Mother Providence
will do the rest.
.
I'm quite sympathetic with your objections to the current way
of doing business - but there must be someway for you to get
feedback. The place where you put the Eteocyprian paper will
not do - I forget just now but there was something about it
that made me reluctant to go in.
You might pull a Franz and "publish" here on sci.lang. Your
work would be in a place where everyone can see it and you
would probably get feedback.
When he does present lengthier stuff, it tends to be reasonable, globally
speaking. But when it's shorter, it tends to be disappointing. I'm not sure
there's critical mass in those scripts.

The only interesting take on Linear A and the eteos I've seen so far is
that of the paleoglot blog I've tried to get comments about here a few
times now to no avail, as FG would say.

The guy does conclude that Minoan is distantly related to Etruscan/Lemnian.
I don't know how Hurrian/Urartian could fit into that.

(The hypothesis I find the most appealing is that Minoan syllables were
strictly (C)V(~) and that's why Linear B omits syllable codae even tho
Greek does have them. It then implies that some of the consonants may be
more complex than thought at first sight - e.g. /t/ might be an affricate
turning into fricative + stop in words borrowed by Greek.)
Peter T. Daniels
2017-12-07 04:11:24 UTC
Permalink
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Post by António Marques
(The hypothesis I find the most appealing is that Minoan syllables were
strictly (C)V(~) and that's why Linear B omits syllable codae even tho
Greek does have them. It then implies that some of the consonants may be
more complex than thought at first sight - e.g. /t/ might be an affricate
turning into fricative + stop in words borrowed by Greek.)
Linear B and Cypriote are Greek CV syllabaries that deal with closed syllables
in interestingly different ways.
Franz Gnaedinger
2017-12-07 09:00:13 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by António Marques
The only interesting take on Linear A and the eteos I've seen so far is
that of the paleoglot blog I've tried to get comments about here a few
times now to no avail, as FG would say.
Is FG me? As for Linear A, Cyrus H. Gordon postulated that the language
of that script is Northwest Semitic, and was punished with heavy silence
at a conference. Only Robert Stieglitz and Jan Best followed him (Best seems
now to assume Luwian the language of Linear A). Walther Hinz, in their wake,
translated Linear A tablet Hagia Triada 95: one side sums up the cereals
given to (the priests of) Haddu the master, the other side the cereals given
to (the priestesses) of Dadumatha, she loved by the master. Of a special
interest to me is the word Mi Nu The which accounts for Minos, here on
another Linear A tablet Loading Image... Mi is given
as head of a bull, Nu as visual pun of a bull leaper, standing on the feet
hands feet, and The as tree of life. In my Magdalenian reading Mi derives
from MUC for bull, Nu from NOS for mind, Greek nous - the bull leaper is
a symbol of the astronomer, the bull of the moon and other celestial bodies,
and the art of bull leaping comparable to the abstract art of calculating
astronomical cylces - , and finally The for the tree of life derives from SAI
for life, existence, together: astronomers are the founders of the Minoan
culture and keep it alive. Astronomy was of utmost importance for Minoan
seafaring on which the wealth of that empire depended. MUC NOS SAI Mi Nu The
was written in much the same way in Hieroglyphic Minoan, Linear A and Linear B,
and the hypothetical ur-form MUC NOS SAI has another pretty consequence, as it
would explain both Minos and Knossos

MUC NOS SAI Mi Nu The Minos

MUC NOS SAI C NOS SAI Knossos
Arnaud Fournet
2017-12-07 12:14:14 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by António Marques
Post by DKleinecke
Post by Arnaud Fournet
I've read and analyzed Hurrian tablets about Gilgames that had not been
understood since 1913.
They were understood before 1913?
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Anyway, I'm quite fed up with peer-review-by-idiots, and I now
tend to work and publish on my own, and then Mother Providence
will do the rest.
.
I'm quite sympathetic with your objections to the current way
of doing business - but there must be someway for you to get
feedback. The place where you put the Eteocyprian paper will
not do - I forget just now but there was something about it
that made me reluctant to go in.
You might pull a Franz and "publish" here on sci.lang. Your
work would be in a place where everyone can see it and you
would probably get feedback.
When he does present lengthier stuff, it tends to be reasonable, globally
speaking. But when it's shorter, it tends to be disappointing. I'm not sure
there's critical mass in those scripts.
The only interesting take on Linear A and the eteos I've seen so far is
that of the paleoglot blog I've tried to get comments about here a few
times now to no avail, as FG would say.
The guy does conclude that Minoan is distantly related to Etruscan/Lemnian.
I don't know how Hurrian/Urartian could fit into that.
Read this:

http://diachronica.pagesperso-orange.fr/TMCJ_vol_3.2_Fournet_Etruscan.pdf

With kind regards.
A.
Peter T. Daniels
2017-12-07 12:20:08 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Post by António Marques
Post by DKleinecke
Post by Arnaud Fournet
I've read and analyzed Hurrian tablets about Gilgames that had not been
understood since 1913.
They were understood before 1913?
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Anyway, I'm quite fed up with peer-review-by-idiots, and I now
tend to work and publish on my own, and then Mother Providence
will do the rest.
.
I'm quite sympathetic with your objections to the current way
of doing business - but there must be someway for you to get
feedback. The place where you put the Eteocyprian paper will
not do - I forget just now but there was something about it
that made me reluctant to go in.
You might pull a Franz and "publish" here on sci.lang. Your
work would be in a place where everyone can see it and you
would probably get feedback.
When he does present lengthier stuff, it tends to be reasonable, globally
speaking. But when it's shorter, it tends to be disappointing. I'm not sure
there's critical mass in those scripts.
The only interesting take on Linear A and the eteos I've seen so far is
that of the paleoglot blog I've tried to get comments about here a few
times now to no avail, as FG would say.
The guy does conclude that Minoan is distantly related to Etruscan/Lemnian.
I don't know how Hurrian/Urartian could fit into that.
http://diachronica.pagesperso-orange.fr/TMCJ_vol_3.2_Fournet_Etruscan.pdf
With kind regards.
A.
I may come back to it. What is "Macro-Comparative Journal"? Googling produces a few articles that
have appeared in it, and then nothing but instances of the term "macro-comparative," mostly
from fields outside linguistics. Who are the editors? Who are the referees?
Arnaud Fournet
2017-12-07 12:31:53 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Post by António Marques
The guy does conclude that Minoan is distantly related to Etruscan/Lemnian.
I don't know how Hurrian/Urartian could fit into that.
http://diachronica.pagesperso-orange.fr/TMCJ_vol_3.2_Fournet_Etruscan.pdf
With kind regards.
A.
I may come back to it. What is "Macro-Comparative Journal"? Googling produces a few articles that
have appeared in it, and then nothing but instances of the term "macro-comparative," mostly
from fields outside linguistics. Who are the editors? Who are the referees?
It's "The Macro-Comparative Journal".
First, read it, and you'll know.
A.
Peter T. Daniels
2017-12-07 12:42:48 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Post by António Marques
The guy does conclude that Minoan is distantly related to Etruscan/Lemnian.
I don't know how Hurrian/Urartian could fit into that.
http://diachronica.pagesperso-orange.fr/TMCJ_vol_3.2_Fournet_Etruscan.pdf
With kind regards.
A.
I may come back to it. What is "Macro-Comparative Journal"? Googling produces a few articles that
have appeared in it, and then nothing but instances of the term "macro-comparative," mostly
from fields outside linguistics. Who are the editors? Who are the referees?
It's "The Macro-Comparative Journal".
First, read it, and you'll know.
A.
There's nothing to read -- only postings of individual articles. No "front matter," nothing.

In searches, articles (In English that means "The," "A," "An") are disregarded.

Note that the url includes the name of a respected journal of historical linguistics, Diachronica,
with which it has no connection.
Arnaud Fournet
2017-12-07 20:57:51 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Post by António Marques
The guy does conclude that Minoan is distantly related to Etruscan/Lemnian.
I don't know how Hurrian/Urartian could fit into that.
http://diachronica.pagesperso-orange.fr/TMCJ_vol_3.2_Fournet_Etruscan.pdf
With kind regards.
A.
I may come back to it. What is "Macro-Comparative Journal"? Googling produces a few articles that
have appeared in it, and then nothing but instances of the term "macro-comparative," mostly
from fields outside linguistics. Who are the editors? Who are the referees?
It's "The Macro-Comparative Journal".
First, read it, and you'll know.
A.
There's nothing to read -- only postings of individual articles. No "front matter," nothing.
In searches, articles (In English that means "The," "A," "An") are disregarded.
Note that the url includes the name of a respected journal of historical linguistics, Diachronica,
with which it has no connection.
So?? what??? idiot, Diachronica is the only respected journal??
Connections??? what does it mean??
A.
Peter T. Daniels
2017-12-07 22:07:35 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Post by António Marques
The guy does conclude that Minoan is distantly related to Etruscan/Lemnian.
I don't know how Hurrian/Urartian could fit into that.
http://diachronica.pagesperso-orange.fr/TMCJ_vol_3.2_Fournet_Etruscan.pdf
With kind regards.
I may come back to it. What is "Macro-Comparative Journal"? Googling produces a few articles that
have appeared in it, and then nothing but instances of the term "macro-comparative," mostly
from fields outside linguistics. Who are the editors? Who are the referees?
It's "The Macro-Comparative Journal".
First, read it, and you'll know.
There's nothing to read -- only postings of individual articles. No "front matter," nothing.
In searches, articles (In English that means "The," "A," "An") are disregarded.
Note that the url includes the name of a respected journal of historical linguistics, Diachronica,
with which it has no connection.
So?? what??? idiot, Diachronica is the only respected journal??
Connections??? what does it mean??
You can't really be that stupid. "Diachronica" is the name of a respected
journal. An unwary reader might suppose that the (apparently) vanity publication
"Macro-Comparative Journal" has some sort of connection with the journal
*Diachronica*, since the URL includes that word.

I doubt that Konrad Koerner, founding editor of Diachronica, or John Benjamins,
its publisher, is aware of MCJ or has authorized its use of their name.
António Marques
2017-12-07 23:54:29 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Post by António Marques
Post by DKleinecke
Post by Arnaud Fournet
I've read and analyzed Hurrian tablets about Gilgames that had not been
understood since 1913.
They were understood before 1913?
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Anyway, I'm quite fed up with peer-review-by-idiots, and I now
tend to work and publish on my own, and then Mother Providence
will do the rest.
.
I'm quite sympathetic with your objections to the current way
of doing business - but there must be someway for you to get
feedback. The place where you put the Eteocyprian paper will
not do - I forget just now but there was something about it
that made me reluctant to go in.
You might pull a Franz and "publish" here on sci.lang. Your
work would be in a place where everyone can see it and you
would probably get feedback.
When he does present lengthier stuff, it tends to be reasonable, globally
speaking. But when it's shorter, it tends to be disappointing. I'm not sure
there's critical mass in those scripts.
The only interesting take on Linear A and the eteos I've seen so far is
that of the paleoglot blog I've tried to get comments about here a few
times now to no avail, as FG would say.
The guy does conclude that Minoan is distantly related to Etruscan/Lemnian.
I don't know how Hurrian/Urartian could fit into that.
http://diachronica.pagesperso-orange.fr/TMCJ_vol_3.2_Fournet_Etruscan.pdf
The case morphology does seem strong, as does the l - d correspondence. It
certainly sounds better to me than that paper that appears to have
established for everyone else that Pictish is Celtic. But then I'm
considerably ignorant of all of those subjects...

It's a pity that more material isn't likely to be forthcoming so that those
hypotheses could be tested a bit.
Post by Arnaud Fournet
With kind regards.
A.
Certes, on ne s'attendait rien d'autre!
Peter T. Daniels
2017-12-08 04:14:13 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by António Marques
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Post by António Marques
Post by DKleinecke
Post by Arnaud Fournet
I've read and analyzed Hurrian tablets about Gilgames that had not been
understood since 1913.
They were understood before 1913?
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Anyway, I'm quite fed up with peer-review-by-idiots, and I now
tend to work and publish on my own, and then Mother Providence
will do the rest.
.
I'm quite sympathetic with your objections to the current way
of doing business - but there must be someway for you to get
feedback. The place where you put the Eteocyprian paper will
not do - I forget just now but there was something about it
that made me reluctant to go in.
You might pull a Franz and "publish" here on sci.lang. Your
work would be in a place where everyone can see it and you
would probably get feedback.
When he does present lengthier stuff, it tends to be reasonable, globally
speaking. But when it's shorter, it tends to be disappointing. I'm not sure
there's critical mass in those scripts.
The only interesting take on Linear A and the eteos I've seen so far is
that of the paleoglot blog I've tried to get comments about here a few
times now to no avail, as FG would say.
The guy does conclude that Minoan is distantly related to Etruscan/Lemnian.
I don't know how Hurrian/Urartian could fit into that.
http://diachronica.pagesperso-orange.fr/TMCJ_vol_3.2_Fournet_Etruscan.pdf
The case morphology does seem strong, as does the l - d correspondence. It
certainly sounds better to me than that paper that appears to have
established for everyone else that Pictish is Celtic. But then I'm
considerably ignorant of all of those subjects...
It's a pity that more material isn't likely to be forthcoming so that those
hypotheses could be tested a bit.
A long Etruscan inscription was discovered just last season -- I think Larissa
[Bonfante] said it's 8 lines. There was a photo in the Etruscan Newsletter of
Rex Wallace looking at it in its museum in Italy.
Post by António Marques
Post by Arnaud Fournet
With kind regards.
A.
Certes, on ne s'attendait rien d'autre!
You must never have read anything else he's written here.
DKleinecke
2017-12-05 18:41:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Arnaud Fournet
I deciphered on my own Eteocypriot and part of LinearA as Hurrian.
Any of that published?
Arnaud Fournet
2017-12-05 21:24:39 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by DKleinecke
Post by Arnaud Fournet
I deciphered on my own Eteocypriot and part of LinearA as Hurrian.
Any of that published?
yes, published,
so far, only EteoCypriot is published here:
https://www.thebookedition.com/fr/module/books/viewdetails?id_book=105958
It should be noted that some EteoCypriot inscriptions are not Hurrian.

As regards LinearA, I've not written a monography yet,
but I plan to do so, early next year, 2018.
A.
DKleinecke
2017-12-05 23:12:20 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Arnaud Fournet
Post by DKleinecke
Post by Arnaud Fournet
I deciphered on my own Eteocypriot and part of LinearA as Hurrian.
Any of that published?
yes, published,
https://www.thebookedition.com/fr/module/books/viewdetails?id_book=105958
It should be noted that some EteoCypriot inscriptions are not Hurrian.
As regards LinearA, I've not written a monography yet,
but I plan to do so, early next year, 2018.
Not that I know anything about the subject but the argument
that Luvian is involved seems most likely to me.
Franz Gnaedinger
2017-12-04 09:02:16 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by DKleinecke
PTD is probably the top world expert on scripts in general.
He has a book coming out soon you should read.
Yes, but not on early writing, there he blocks himself with his numerous
dogmata: the Phaistos Disc can't be deciphered, the Vinca (Vincha) script
is no real script, no script at all, visual language does not exist,
animal language does not exist, body language does not exist, etcetera pepe.
I fear that he learned nothing in between 1996 and now, so his sequel will
again be wanting when it comes to early language and early writing.
Ruud Harmsen
2017-12-04 10:45:14 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Mon, 4 Dec 2017 01:02:16 -0800 (PST): Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Yes, but not on early writing, there he blocks himself with his numerous
dogmata: the Phaistos Disc can't be deciphered, the Vinca (Vincha) script
is no real script, no script at all, visual language does not exist,
animal language does not exist, body language does not exist, etcetera pepe.
I fear that he learned nothing in between 1996 and now, so his sequel will
again be wanting when it comes to early language and early writing.
I expect PTD never said anything of the kind. I think he will have
said there is a lot we simply do not know about these things, and
therefore reliable scientific conclusions cannot be drawn.

That is the difference: YOU don't stop there, but continue based on
fantasy. That's OK if you label it fantasy, but not if you call it
science.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Franz Gnaedinger
2017-12-06 09:24:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ruud Harmsen
I expect PTD never said anything of the kind. I think he will have
said there is a lot we simply do not know about these things, and
therefore reliable scientific conclusions cannot be drawn.
That is the difference: YOU don't stop there, but continue based on
fantasy. That's OK if you label it fantasy, but not if you call it
science.
No no no, NO NONONO, PTD alias Peter T. Daniels aka Peter The Dogmatician
told me time and again that animals have no language, that body language
and visual language do not exist, that early language was the same as recent
language, that language has nothing to do with archaeology, that the Phaistos
Disc can't be deciphered, and so on and onner.
Peter T. Daniels
2017-12-06 13:32:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Ruud Harmsen
I expect PTD never said anything of the kind. I think he will have
said there is a lot we simply do not know about these things, and
therefore reliable scientific conclusions cannot be drawn.
That is the difference: YOU don't stop there, but continue based on
fantasy. That's OK if you label it fantasy, but not if you call it
science.
No no no, NO NONONO, PTD alias Peter T. Daniels aka Peter The Dogmatician
told me time and again that animals have no language,
They have communication, which is what you mislabel "language."
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
that body language
and visual language do not exist,
Those are out-and-out lies.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
that early language was the same as recent
language,
That is an out-and-out lie.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
that language has nothing to do with archaeology, that the Phaistos
Disc can't be deciphered,
Absent any other documents in the same script.

Those two are absolutely true.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
and so on and onner.
What does that refer to?
Ruud Harmsen
2017-12-04 11:04:27 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Mon, 4 Dec 2017 01:02:16 -0800 (PST): Franz Gnaedinger
the Vinca (Vincha) script is no real script, no script at all,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C4%83rt%C4%83ria_tablets
"They would thus be the world's earliest known form of writing. This
claim remains controversial."
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Franz Gnaedinger
2017-12-06 09:32:42 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ruud Harmsen
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C4%83rt%C4%83ria_tablets
"They would thus be the world's earliest known form of writing. This
claim remains controversial."
Who says that? In my opinion, the Vinca (Vincha) script is an early form
of writing, sacral writing for the worship of the Bird Goddess and Divine
Birdwoman of Old Europe in the sense of Marija Gimbutas, possibly evolving
from ivory figurines of woman-bird figurines covered in decorative patterns,
from the Western Ukraine in the Upper Paleolithic, but certainly not the
first writing: there are hieroglyphs on Göbekli Tepe stelae, paintings
plus ideograms in European caves conveying precise messages, the big red
ocher inscription in the Brunel chamber of the Chauvet cave, the latter
between 32,000 and 36,000 years old, and a red ocher dot on a wall of
the Altamira cave, a few years ago dated to an age of 41,000 +- years,
in my opinion claiming a life in the beyond for a worthy soul, again
a form of early writing for a religious purpose.
Ruud Harmsen
2017-12-06 15:21:24 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Wed, 6 Dec 2017 01:32:42 -0800 (PST): Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Ruud Harmsen
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C4%83rt%C4%83ria_tablets
"They would thus be the world's earliest known form of writing. This
claim remains controversial."
Who says that?
Somebody contributing to Wikipedia. You can find out who exactly by
analysing the history of the page.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
In my opinion, the Vinca (Vincha) script is an early form
of writing, sacral writing for the worship of the Bird Goddess and Divine
Birdwoman of Old Europe in the sense of Marija Gimbutas, possibly evolving
from ivory figurines of woman-bird figurines covered in decorative patterns,
from the Western Ukraine in the Upper Paleolithic, but certainly not the
first writing: there are hieroglyphs on Göbekli Tepe stelae, paintings
plus ideograms in European caves conveying precise messages, the big red
ocher inscription in the Brunel chamber of the Chauvet cave, the latter
between 32,000 and 36,000 years old, and a red ocher dot on a wall of
the Altamira cave, a few years ago dated to an age of 41,000 +- years,
in my opinion claiming a life in the beyond for a worthy soul, again
a form of early writing for a religious purpose.
Opinion is not science.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Franz Gnaedinger
2017-12-07 08:31:02 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Opinion is not science.
Well-founded opinion. And instead of mocking my phantasy you should complain
about the lack of imagination manifest in linear extrapolations of the present
back into the past.
Ruud Harmsen
2017-12-07 13:50:58 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Thu, 7 Dec 2017 00:31:02 -0800 (PST): Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Opinion is not science.
Well-founded opinion. And instead of mocking my phantasy you should complain
about the lack of imagination manifest in linear extrapolations of the present
back into the past.
Imagination is not science.

And I don't mock your fantasy, I'm only saying it is fantasy. It that
mockery to you already? May the truth not be heard?
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Franz Gnaedinger
2017-12-09 09:14:48 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Imagination is not science.
And I don't mock your fantasy, I'm only saying it is fantasy. It that
mockery to you already? May the truth not be heard?
Cael de Guichen said archaeology is not an exact science but a speculative one
- a science of imagination ... Note well: a _science_ of imagination. Goethe
attributed the poet an exact sensual phantasy, and said the world is both
more complex than we will ever understand, and at the same time much simpler
than we will ever comprehend, from which I got my formula: simple yet complex,
the formula I use in explaining the legacy of early times. And saying 'in my
opinion' is a scientific stance, according to a wise statement I heard a woman
say on the radio decades ago: objectivity is subjectivity made transparent.
In archaelogy and Paleo-linguistics, fantasy is required in order to link
the ever more fragmented past. Apart from that, I explained in several dozen
messages why hand impressions and hand negatives on cave walls - the oldest
ones about sixty thousand years old in Indonesia - and red ocher dots on
cave walls implore a second life in the heavenly beyond for a worthy soul,
and so my opinion is more than that, a full blown hypothesis coming from
half a century of studying cave art. However, the humanities are caught
in a feudalistic bubble, wobbling along decades behind the past - new ideas
and insights can't be published, and that stance is what I call unscientific.
Peter T. Daniels
2017-12-09 13:29:37 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Imagination is not science.
And I don't mock your fantasy, I'm only saying it is fantasy. It that
mockery to you already? May the truth not be heard?
Cael de Guichen said
That seems to be a misspelling of the conservator in charge of the caves at Altamira.
Franz Gnaedinger
2017-12-11 08:13:43 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
That seems to be a misspelling of the conservator in charge of the caves at Altamira.
Might well be, but why can't you give the correct spelling?
Franz Gnaedinger
2017-12-11 08:39:01 UTC
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Returning to the topic of this thread: Pellar's alleged parallel between
the constellations of the zodiac and the letters of the Phoenician alphabet,
which was invented in the 17th century BC. In that time, bright Aldebaran
in the constellation of Taurus 'Bull' stood above the eastern horizon
just before the sun rose on the spring equinox (March 21), if my calculation
is right. Now the astronomers of Babylon called Aldebaran and the Pleiads
the 'Golden Gate' as it was passed by sun and moon and planets. Aldebaran
could well have accounted for aleph in the form of a bull's head. But then,
could bet have been inspired by Aries 'Ram' ? I see no further connection
between the zodiac and the letters of the Phoenician alphabet, and if there
were such a connection, Pellar should have drawn (or let draw) a table
showing the constellations of the zodiac on the left side and the first
letters of the Phoenician alphabet ohe right side. Someone proposing a new
hypothesis or theory should make it plausible, contrary to Diode who blows
fog over everything and makes what is already unclear still much morer so.
Peter T. Daniels
2017-12-11 12:37:29 UTC
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Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Returning to the topic of this thread: Pellar's alleged parallel between
the constellations of the zodiac and the letters of the Phoenician alphabet,
which was invented in the 17th century BC. In that time,
"In that time," there were at least 27 -- possibly 28 or 29 -- letters, so your numerological
fiddlings are shot all to hell.
Franz Gnaedinger
2017-12-12 07:48:40 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
"In that time," there were at least 27 -- possibly 28 or 29 -- letters, so your numerological
fiddlings are shot all to hell.
The oldest Phoenician alphabet had 14 letters. I can't unite them with the
zodiac. But I made the case for aleph being inspired by Aldebaran in Taurus
'Bull' hovering above the eastern horizon on the spring equinox just before
sunrise, Aldebaran and the Pleiads having been the Golden Gate of Babylonian
astronomy. I don't see further parallels between any alphabet and the zodiac,
but, a couple of years ago, I made a connection between the Greek alphabet
of 24 letters and the 24 hours in a day, a special day, spring equinox,
and further developed my equation in this thread here. The day of the spring
equinox began with the hour aleph given as head of a bull, in reference to
Aldebaran hovering above the eastern horizon before sunrise, while the
setting sun passed an imaginary gate in the west, denoted by the letter Pi,
and the sun rising on the next day was denoted by Omega, the sign inspired
by an Egyptian standart showing the solar disc on a pair of horns. From Alpha
to Omega would then origionally have meant a full cycle, from sunrise to
sunrise. If you google for "brian pellar" zodiac you can find several discs
representing the zodiac, but the signs for the planets are no letters from
a known alphabet. Nevertheless, the alphabet can have been inspired by the
sky, especially Aldebaran, then also the imaginary western gate (Pi) and
the sunrise on the next morning (omega - the lower case closer to that
Egyptian standart). - By the way, invectives have no power against ideas.
Peter T. Daniels
2017-12-12 12:50:17 UTC
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Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"In that time," there were at least 27 -- possibly 28 or 29 -- letters, so your numerological
fiddlings are shot all to hell.
The oldest Phoenician alphabet had 14 letters.
Wrong. The oldest Phoenician "alphabet," as seen on the sarcophagus of Ahirom king of Byblos,
had 22 letters.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
I can't unite them with the
zodiac. But I made the case
No, you didn't. You gave voice to a fantasy.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
for aleph being inspired by Aldebaran in Taurus
'Bull' hovering above the eastern horizon on the spring equinox just before
sunrise, Aldebaran and the Pleiads having been the Golden Gate of Babylonian
astronomy. I don't see further parallels between any alphabet and the zodiac,
but, a couple of years ago, I
Following in the footsteps of any number of deluded mystics.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
made a connection between the Greek alphabet
of 24 letters and the 24 hours in a day, a special day, spring equinox,
and further developed my equation in this thread here. The day of the spring
equinox began with the hour aleph given as head of a bull, in reference to
Aldebaran hovering above the eastern horizon before sunrise, while the
setting sun passed an imaginary gate in the west, denoted by the letter Pi,
and the sun rising on the next day was denoted by Omega, the sign inspired
by an Egyptian standart showing the solar disc on a pair of horns.
Different epichoric (local) Greek alphabets had different numbers of letters. The standard
24 wasn't settled on until 402 BCE when Athens, having achieved hegemony in its mind, made its
version official (even though it omitted letters for h and w, which other dialects needed, and
provided for only two of the long vowels).
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
From Alpha
to Omega would then origionally have meant a full cycle, from sunrise to
sunrise. If you google for "brian pellar" zodiac you can find several discs
representing the zodiac, but the signs for the planets are no letters from
a known alphabet. Nevertheless, the alphabet can have been inspired by the
sky, especially Aldebaran, then also the imaginary western gate (Pi) and
the sunrise on the next morning (omega - the lower case closer to that
Egyptian standart). - By the way, invectives have no power against ideas.
No fact-based ideas are present.
Daud Deden
2017-12-11 22:16:53 UTC
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FG: "But then,
could bet have been inspired by Aries 'Ram' ?"

No, see cites. Bet is female = (Xyam)buatla = birther & builder of domus/home/urheimat.

Aries is a horny butter, but via battle not banter nor birther.
DKleinecke
2017-12-11 23:11:31 UTC
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Post by Daud Deden
FG: "But then,
could bet have been inspired by Aries 'Ram' ?"
No, see cites. Bet is female = (Xyam)buatla = birther & builder of domus/home/urheimat.
Aries is a horny butter, but via battle not banter nor birther.
Are you DD'eDeN ?
DKleinecke
2017-12-11 23:35:10 UTC
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Post by Daud Deden
FG: "But then,
could bet have been inspired by Aries 'Ram' ?"
No, see cites. Bet is female = (Xyam)buatla = birther & builder of domus/home/urheimat.
I found this online:

DDeden says:
June 7, 2017 at 10:06 am

The San are southern Twa Pygmies, in a very general sense,
with localized adaptations.

*Xyambuatla (Paleo-Pygmy) chamber (of) water
!hxaro (KhoiSan !Kung) ostrich egg (etched exchange trade)
zero (English) 0
ling (Chinese) 0
caroling (English) open-mouth sing to keep pace = !hxaro-ling
chanter/cantor/shanty(oar-pace)
Saras.vati (Sanskrit) saras/pool + vati/valley/wadi(Arabic)
Yam(Hebrew) pool/pond/bound coast to coast waterbody
Yam (Mongolian) coastal to coastal postal service

This, to some extent, explains where DD is coming from. People
(that is Wikipedia) tell us the Pygmies have no language of
their own - they all speak dialects of nearby known languages.
Hence the concept of Paleo-Pygmy is elusive.
b***@ihug.co.nz
2017-12-12 02:14:41 UTC
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Post by DKleinecke
Post by Daud Deden
FG: "But then,
could bet have been inspired by Aries 'Ram' ?"
No, see cites. Bet is female = (Xyam)buatla = birther & builder of domus/home/urheimat.
June 7, 2017 at 10:06 am
The San are southern Twa Pygmies, in a very general sense,
with localized adaptations.
*Xyambuatla (Paleo-Pygmy) chamber (of) water
!hxaro (KhoiSan !Kung) ostrich egg (etched exchange trade)
zero (English) 0
ling (Chinese) 0
caroling (English) open-mouth sing to keep pace = !hxaro-ling
chanter/cantor/shanty(oar-pace)
Saras.vati (Sanskrit) saras/pool + vati/valley/wadi(Arabic)
Yam(Hebrew) pool/pond/bound coast to coast waterbody
Yam (Mongolian) coastal to coastal postal service
"The name Yam was adopted in most western languages from Russian,
where it probably is a Tatar (Turkic) loan word. The Turkic word
root again is related to the Mongolian "Zam" (road or way). However,
in the Mongolian Empire, both the postal system and the individual
stations were named "Örtöö" ("Örtege" in Classical Mongolian)."

- Wikipedia "Yam (route)"
Daud Deden
2017-12-12 14:39:23 UTC
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Yam is indeed a root.
Daud Deden
2017-12-12 19:19:46 UTC
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Post by Daud Deden
Yam is indeed a root.
***@Shoshone: yam [DD: yam + beet?]
***@Fulani: eat [DD: probably distinct eat yam vs eat meat?]
***@Mbuti: thicket [DD: ~ jam/pemmican/yammer/jabber/***@Malay:tuber]/***@Hebrew:swell-bell-ball]
Daud Deden
2017-12-12 19:23:35 UTC
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Post by Daud Deden
Yam is indeed a root.
pi + mabul = pimple = ***@Mbuti: primp/pomp/bo(o)dy paint/
thi + mabul = thimble - thumball?
b***@ihug.co.nz
2017-12-12 02:34:50 UTC
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Post by DKleinecke
Post by Daud Deden
FG: "But then,
could bet have been inspired by Aries 'Ram' ?"
No, see cites. Bet is female = (Xyam)buatla = birther & builder of domus/home/urheimat.
June 7, 2017 at 10:06 am
The San are southern Twa Pygmies, in a very general sense,
with localized adaptations.
*Xyambuatla (Paleo-Pygmy) chamber (of) water
!hxaro (KhoiSan !Kung) ostrich egg (etched exchange trade)
zero (English) 0
ling (Chinese) 0
caroling (English) open-mouth sing to keep pace = !hxaro-ling
chanter/cantor/shanty(oar-pace)
I must admit I can't figure out what "open-mouth sing to keep
pace" means, but when we find "oar-pace" in the next line, and
ostrich eggs at the origin (where else?), surely "pace-egging"
belongs in here somewhere?

"...an ancient Lancashire custom...", it says here. (That would be
*tla-!hxa-shire, I assume.)

http://www.historic-uk.com/CultureUK/Pace-Egging/
Post by DKleinecke
Saras.vati (Sanskrit) saras/pool + vati/valley/wadi(Arabic)
Yam(Hebrew) pool/pond/bound coast to coast waterbody
Yam (Mongolian) coastal to coastal postal service
This, to some extent, explains where DD is coming from. People
(that is Wikipedia) tell us the Pygmies have no language of
their own - they all speak dialects of nearby known languages.
Hence the concept of Paleo-Pygmy is elusive.
Daud Deden
2017-12-12 19:46:52 UTC
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Post by DKleinecke
Post by Daud Deden
FG: "But then,
could bet have been inspired by Aries 'Ram' ?"
No, see cites. Bet is female = (Xyam)buatla = birther & builder of domus/home/urheimat.
DD'eDeN DDeden DD'eden etc.

I have been on the net for years, often changed my thoughts, developed/discarded various ideas, etc. Now following guidance of the Principles of Parsimony & Continuity.
Post by DKleinecke
June 7, 2017 at 10:06 am
The San are southern Twa Pygmies, in a very general sense,
with localized adaptations.
*Xyambuatla (Paleo-Pygmy) chamber (of) water
(water)(carry/chamber)(water), squaw=wamba=womb

Carlos L. was 1st to see it, for that he earned my appreciation.
Post by DKleinecke
!hxaro (KhoiSan !Kung) ostrich egg (etched exchange trade)
zer-o hxar-o kant-o-ng kamp-o-ng ~ share/reciprocate = zero sum=both benefit

***@Malay: pocket/container/canister/canistros/***@Iroquois:pocketfull of people aka village/***@Malay: hamlet

Note: I already responded once 4 hrs. ago but it must have got lost.
Post by DKleinecke
zero (English) 0
ling (Chinese) 0
caroling (English) open-mouth sing to keep pace = !hxaro-ling
chanter/cantor/shanty(oar-pace)
Rhythmic measure/march.an(d/t) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Walking_Drum
Post by DKleinecke
Saras.vati (Sanskrit) saras/pool + vati/valley/wadi(Arabic)
Yam(Hebrew) pool/pond/bound coast to coast waterbody
Yam (Mongolian) coastal to coastal postal service
This, to some extent, explains where DD is coming from. People
(that is Wikipedia) tell us the Pygmies have no language of
their own - they all speak dialects of nearby known languages.
Hence the concept of Paleo-Pygmy is elusive.
They retain their tone and their basal terms. They never had or needed vast vocabularies, no hierarchy, no "modern" stuff bothered them til the Bantu farmers came with Asian crops etc.

Egg pacing?

Franz Gnaedinger
2017-12-11 08:52:18 UTC
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Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Peter T. Daniels
That seems to be a misspelling of the conservator in charge of the caves at Altamira.
Might well be, but why can't you give the correct spelling?
Yes, Gaël de Guichen is who you said, here a quote

on the famous mycenaean signet ring, cms i, 179, of ... - Academia.edu
www.academia.edu/.../ON_THE_FAMOUS_MYCENAEAN_SIGNET_RING_CMS_I...
As Gael de Guichen very successfully noted, Archaeology is not an exact science but a speculative one: A science of imagination. Even though, all of the existing interpretations of the iconographic symbolism have left me with a sense of inentirety. Interpreting the meaning of the engraving of the particular seal, requires that ...

I couldn't open the page, but am quite certain that his interpretation of the
gold signet ring from Tiryns goes not along with mine (remember: the line of
lion-wolf-dog-bee men represents Eponymous Tiryns from the Phaistos Disc
aka Lord Laertes the gardener in Homer's Odyssey, and his Middle Helladic
successors, the first king in line - Eponymous Tiryns - raising a libation
jug in honor of Demeter-Elaia, while a shower of grains goes down over
the happy scene).
Peter T. Daniels
2017-12-11 12:33:30 UTC
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Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Peter T. Daniels
That seems to be a misspelling of the conservator in charge of the caves at Altamira.
Might well be, but why can't you give the correct spelling?
What does it matter? He does not take a position on "Magdalenian."
Peter T. Daniels
2017-12-03 20:09:02 UTC
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Post by Daud Deden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Daud Deden
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
A reader informed me about a new theory on the origin of the alphabet
[PDF]On the Origins of the Alphabet - Sino-Platonic Papers
sino-platonic.org/complete/spp196_alphabet.pdf
by BR Pellar - ‎Related articles
On the Origins of the Alphabet by. Brian R. Pellar. Victor H. Mair, Editor. Sino-Platonic Papers. Department of East Asian Languages and Civilizations. University .
We have a leading expert on the world's writing systems among us.
Comment?
I am not that leading expert on world's writing systems.
Franz, you leapt from Pellars' stellar calendar to your own diurnal sun-based concept. Why? What do you say about Pellar's work?
Peter, you claim it is silly. Why? (I'm not talking about Gordon, only Pellar.)
Pellar's diagrams are clear, showing the ties between the zodiac diagrams and the letters. He misses only Aquarius, which I have shown to derive from !Xam: aka uru = water bearer moon/month which perfectly fits aquarius and aquarium.
Sorry, I'm not going to slog through his articles again. They simply bear no
relation to the reality of the attested history of scripts.
Would you be willing to direct me to a site containing the attested history of scripts?
Well, you could do worse than omniglot.com, though I don't think it has a general
overview. I gather you young whippersnappers don't do books any more, but I
can recommend Amalia Gnanadesikan, *The Writing Revolution* (2008):

https://www.amazon.com/Writing-Revolution-Cuneiform-Internet/dp/1405154071/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1512331595&sr=8-1&keywords=gnanadesikan
Post by Daud Deden
I am not a scriptologist. However, I consider the oldest scripts to be "proto-Phoenician" zodiac symbols that evolved into a syllabary and/or then an alphabet, only written down as temporary diagrams, [like Navajo & Tibetan sand (mandala) paintings] by astro-priests of some type on birch bark or calfskin and then burned as seasonal ceremonial spiritual offerings via smoke or offered to the 4 winds, with no deliberately kept permanent records (no (clay-stone) graven images = no animal or human representations kept, or possibly destroyed later by other groups to weaken the social memory?). Initially, they had nothing to do with inscribing societal laws or merchant accounts, but they became so with the development of grain agriculture and sedentary anonymous communities, by which time the symbols had become localized variations.
Which would suggest you're not interested in the actually attested facts on the topic.
Daud Deden
2017-12-07 20:17:13 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Daud Deden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Daud Deden
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
A reader informed me about a new theory on the origin of the alphabet
[PDF]On the Origins of the Alphabet - Sino-Platonic Papers
sino-platonic.org/complete/spp196_alphabet.pdf
by BR Pellar - ‎Related articles
On the Origins of the Alphabet by. Brian R. Pellar. Victor H. Mair, Editor. Sino-Platonic Papers. Department of East Asian Languages and Civilizations. University .
We have a leading expert on the world's writing systems among us.
Comment?
I am not that leading expert on world's writing systems.
Franz, you leapt from Pellars' stellar calendar to your own diurnal sun-based concept. Why? What do you say about Pellar's work?
Peter, you claim it is silly. Why? (I'm not talking about Gordon, only Pellar.)
Pellar's diagrams are clear, showing the ties between the zodiac diagrams and the letters. He misses only Aquarius, which I have shown to derive from !Xam: aka uru = water bearer moon/month which perfectly fits aquarius and aquarium.
Sorry, I'm not going to slog through his articles again. They simply bear no
relation to the reality of the attested history of scripts.
Would you be willing to direct me to a site containing the attested history of scripts?
Well, you could do worse than omniglot.com, though I don't think it has a general
overview. I gather you young whippersnappers don't do books any more, but I
https://www.amazon.com/Writing-Revolution-Cuneiform-Internet/dp/1405154071/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1512331595&sr=8-1&keywords=gnanadesikan
Post by Daud Deden
I am not a scriptologist. However, I consider the oldest scripts to be "proto-Phoenician" zodiac symbols that evolved into a syllabary and/or then an alphabet, only written down as temporary diagrams, [like Navajo & Tibetan sand (mandala) paintings] by astro-priests of some type on birch bark or calfskin and then burned as seasonal ceremonial spiritual offerings via smoke or offered to the 4 winds, with no deliberately kept permanent records (no (clay-stone) graven images = no animal or human representations kept, or possibly destroyed later by other groups to weaken the social memory?). Initially, they had nothing to do with inscribing societal laws or merchant accounts, but they became so with the development of grain agriculture and sedentary anonymous communities, by which time the symbols had become localized variations.
Which would suggest you're not interested in the actually attested facts on the topic.
Peter, do you think the page linked here is more or less accurate?

http://www.ancientscripts.com/protosinaitic.html

"No matter where and when the adoption of Egyptian signs onto a Semitic language occurred, the process of adoption is quite interesting. Egyptian hieroglyphs already have phonetic signs (in addition to logograms), but the Sinaitic people did not adopt these phonetic signs. Instead, they randomly chose pictorial Egyptian glyphs (like ox-head, house, etc), where each sign stood for a consonant. How did they decide which sign get which consonant? A sign is a picture of an object, and the first consonant of the word for this object becomes the sound the sign represents. In short, this is called the acrophonic principle"
Peter T. Daniels
2017-12-07 22:04:16 UTC
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Post by Daud Deden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Daud Deden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Daud Deden
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
A reader informed me about a new theory on the origin of the alphabet
[PDF]On the Origins of the Alphabet - Sino-Platonic Papers
sino-platonic.org/complete/spp196_alphabet.pdf
by BR Pellar - ‎Related articles
On the Origins of the Alphabet by. Brian R. Pellar. Victor H. Mair, Editor. Sino-Platonic Papers. Department of East Asian Languages and Civilizations. University .
We have a leading expert on the world's writing systems among us.
Comment?
I am not that leading expert on world's writing systems.
Franz, you leapt from Pellars' stellar calendar to your own diurnal sun-based concept. Why? What do you say about Pellar's work?
Peter, you claim it is silly. Why? (I'm not talking about Gordon, only Pellar.)
Pellar's diagrams are clear, showing the ties between the zodiac diagrams and the letters. He misses only Aquarius, which I have shown to derive from !Xam: aka uru = water bearer moon/month which perfectly fits aquarius and aquarium.
Sorry, I'm not going to slog through his articles again. They simply bear no
relation to the reality of the attested history of scripts.
Would you be willing to direct me to a site containing the attested history of scripts?
Well, you could do worse than omniglot.com, though I don't think it has a general
overview. I gather you young whippersnappers don't do books any more, but I
https://www.amazon.com/Writing-Revolution-Cuneiform-Internet/dp/1405154071/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1512331595&sr=8-1&keywords=gnanadesikan
Post by Daud Deden
I am not a scriptologist. However, I consider the oldest scripts to be "proto-Phoenician" zodiac symbols that evolved into a syllabary and/or then an alphabet, only written down as temporary diagrams, [like Navajo & Tibetan sand (mandala) paintings] by astro-priests of some type on birch bark or calfskin and then burned as seasonal ceremonial spiritual offerings via smoke or offered to the 4 winds, with no deliberately kept permanent records (no (clay-stone) graven images = no animal or human representations kept, or possibly destroyed later by other groups to weaken the social memory?). Initially, they had nothing to do with inscribing societal laws or merchant accounts, but they became so with the development of grain agriculture and sedentary anonymous communities, by which time the symbols had become localized variations.
Which would suggest you're not interested in the actually attested facts on the topic.
Peter, do you think the page linked here is more or less accurate?
Well, it misuses "linear," and it wrongly equates Proto-Sinaitic with Proto-
Canaanite, and it overinterprets the Wadi el-Hol material (two ununderstood
and, being petroglyphs, undatable) sequences found in southern (Upper) Egypt,
but the outline is not terrible, though it misses the basic point.
Post by Daud Deden
http://www.ancientscripts.com/protosinaitic.html
"No matter where and when the adoption of Egyptian signs onto a Semitic language occurred, the process of adoption is quite interesting. Egyptian hieroglyphs already have phonetic signs (in addition to logograms), but the Sinaitic people did not adopt these phonetic signs. Instead, they randomly chose pictorial Egyptian glyphs (like ox-head, house, etc), where each sign stood for a consonant. How did they decide which sign get which consonant? A sign is a picture of an object, and the first consonant of the word for this object becomes the sound the sign represents. In short, this is called the acrophonic principle"
Thus the process was anything but random!
Daud Deden
2017-12-08 23:43:43 UTC
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Peter: "Well, it misuses "linear," and it wrongly equates Proto-Sinaitic with Proto-
Canaanite,
-
It may have been written just after some Sinai inscriptions were found.
-

and it overinterprets the Wadi el-Hol material (two ununderstood
-
A PTD original, like Franz's overform?
-
and, being petroglyphs, undatable) sequences found in southern (Upper) Egypt,
but the outline is not terrible, though it misses the basic point.
-
Thanks. I agree, phonetics hardly random. Alef is male, Bet is mother's home, female. Pellar covers that, upper half male, lower half female of each letter pair.
Peter T. Daniels
2017-12-09 04:15:41 UTC
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Post by Daud Deden
Peter: "Well, it misuses "linear," and it wrongly equates Proto-Sinaitic with Proto-
Canaanite,
-
It may have been written just after some Sinai inscriptions were found.
-
No, it wasn't. "Sinai inscriptions" is meaningless. "Proto-Sinaitic" (Twelfth
Dynasty) is called that because there was already a large corpus called "Sinaitic,"
which are Nabataean inscriptions from some 2000 years later.

The Proto-Sinaitic inscriptions were found right around 1900, and Proto-
Canaanite inscriptions started turning up a few decades later.
Post by Daud Deden
and it overinterprets the Wadi el-Hol material (two ununderstood
-
A PTD original, like Franz's overform?
-
and, being petroglyphs, undatable) sequences found in southern (Upper) Egypt,
but the outline is not terrible, though it misses the basic point.
-
Thanks. I agree, phonetics hardly random. Alef is male, Bet is mother's home, female. Pellar covers that, upper half male, lower half female of each letter pair.
That's only part of the reason to disregard that nonsense. We have no
information whatsoever about the order used for the Proto-Sinaitic letters, so
he has no way of knowing which two letters might make up any particular "pair."
Franz Gnaedinger
2017-12-09 09:22:36 UTC
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Post by Daud Deden
Franz, you leapt from Pellars' stellar calendar to your own diurnal sun-based concept. Why? What do you say about Pellar's work?
I don't know Pellar's work, and established my correspondence of the 24 hours
in a day and the 24 letters of the Greek alphabet years before I heard of
Pellar. From Pellar I expect a juxtaposition of the constellations and letters,
which I did not found on the page you gave. And how does he compare an alphabet
of 24 or so letters with 12 or 13 constellations (Ophiuchus now missing from
the zodiac) ? You are a bad advocate of a hypothesis, making what is unclear
still much more uncelearer. And then, I don't feel like discussing with you
anymore before you explain how diode is a cognate of David. Your etymology
- which I consider artificial insainia AI adopted from Carlos L. - has no
explaining power.
Daud Deden
2017-12-10 00:20:23 UTC
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Franz & Peter, 11 zodiac animals composed of binary (M/F) letter pairs -> 22 Phoenix/phone/tone/"bones" + aquariu(s/m) water bearer/bowed.l/boat.l/barq = 24
Franz Gnaedinger
2017-12-11 08:12:49 UTC
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Post by Daud Deden
Franz & Peter, 11 zodiac animals composed of binary (M/F) letter pairs -> 22 Phoenix/phone/tone/"bones" + aquariu(s/m) water bearer/bowed.l/boat.l/barq = 24
Can you ever formulate a clear thought? or did Carlos L. ruin you completely?
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