Discussion:
Brian Pellar, Sino-Platonic Papers (zodiac as origin of the alphabet ?)
(too old to reply)
Franz Gnaedinger
2017-05-08 07:10:39 UTC
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A reader informed me about a new theory on the origin of the alphabet

[PDF]On the Origins of the Alphabet - Sino-Platonic Papers
sino-platonic.org/complete/spp196_alphabet.pdf
by BR Pellar - ‎Related articles
On the Origins of the Alphabet by. Brian R. Pellar. Victor H. Mair, Editor. Sino-Platonic Papers. Department of East Asian Languages and Civilizations. University .

We have a leading expert on the world's writing systems among us.
Comment?
DKleinecke
2017-05-08 17:35:57 UTC
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Post by Franz Gnaedinger
A reader informed me about a new theory on the origin of the alphabet
[PDF]On the Origins of the Alphabet - Sino-Platonic Papers
sino-platonic.org/complete/spp196_alphabet.pdf
by BR Pellar - ‎Related articles
On the Origins of the Alphabet by. Brian R. Pellar. Victor H. Mair, Editor. Sino-Platonic Papers. Department of East Asian Languages and Civilizations. University .
We have a leading expert on the world's writing systems among us.
Comment?
I'm not that expert - but I find the paper unconvincing.
Peter T. Daniels
2017-05-08 17:46:48 UTC
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Post by Franz Gnaedinger
A reader informed me about a new theory on the origin of the alphabet
[PDF]On the Origins of the Alphabet - Sino-Platonic Papers
sino-platonic.org/complete/spp196_alphabet.pdf
by BR Pellar - ‎Related articles
On the Origins of the Alphabet by. Brian R. Pellar. Victor H. Mair, Editor. Sino-Platonic Papers. Department of East Asian Languages and Civilizations. University .
We have a leading expert on the world's writing systems among us.
Comment?
2009 is hardly new. I glanced through it when it came out. It was not cooperating
scrolling to the end this morning: does he acknowledge Cyrus Gordon's publications
on the same (silly) idea 40 years earlier?
Peter T. Daniels
2017-05-08 17:50:33 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
A reader informed me about a new theory on the origin of the alphabet
[PDF]On the Origins of the Alphabet - Sino-Platonic Papers
sino-platonic.org/complete/spp196_alphabet.pdf
by BR Pellar - ‎Related articles
On the Origins of the Alphabet by. Brian R. Pellar. Victor H. Mair, Editor. Sino-Platonic Papers. Department of East Asian Languages and Civilizations. University .
We have a leading expert on the world's writing systems among us.
Comment?
2009 is hardly new. I glanced through it when it came out. It was not cooperating
scrolling to the end this morning: does he acknowledge Cyrus Gordon's publications
on the same (silly) idea 40 years earlier?
I even downloaded it -- and his two followups in SPP 219 and 246.

I guess I could free up a few Mb of disk space.
Franz Gnaedinger
2017-05-09 07:16:35 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
2009 is hardly new. I glanced through it when it came out. It was not cooperating
scrolling to the end this morning: does he acknowledge Cyrus Gordon's publications
on the same (silly) idea 40 years earlier?
Thanks for the comment. I could not open the page in my library - could just
read a few lines, then all got blurry. However, there is a connection of
the alphabet and the sky. The Greek alphabet begins with alpha, from aleph,
showing the head of an ox (still there if we turn our A upside down) while
the omega, both the lower and upper cases, remind of an Egyptian standart
showing the sun on the horns of the cow Hathor, while the aleph might have
been inspired by Baal rising as sun calf in the morning. The Greek alphabet
had 24 letters corresponding to the 24 hours of a day - initially hours of
different lenghts, but still 24 hours, so the twenty-four Greek letters
reflected on the 24 hours from sunrise to sunrise.
Peter T. Daniels
2017-05-09 12:31:55 UTC
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Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Peter T. Daniels
2009 is hardly new. I glanced through it when it came out. It was not cooperating
scrolling to the end this morning: does he acknowledge Cyrus Gordon's publications
on the same (silly) idea 40 years earlier?
Thanks for the comment. I could not open the page in my library - could just
read a few lines, then all got blurry. However, there is a connection of
the alphabet and the sky. The Greek alphabet begins with alpha, from aleph,
showing the head of an ox (still there if we turn our A upside down) while
the omega, both the lower and upper cases, remind of an Egyptian standart
showing the sun on the horns of the cow Hathor, while the aleph might have
been inspired by Baal rising as sun calf in the morning. The Greek alphabet
had 24 letters corresponding to the 24 hours of a day - initially hours of
different lenghts, but still 24 hours, so the twenty-four Greek letters
reflected on the 24 hours from sunrise to sunrise.
Sorry, but Omega is a calligraphic variant of Omicron. Absolutely no connection with
any Egyptian forebear whatsoever.

And Baal has nothing to do with Egypt.
Franz Gnaedinger
2017-05-10 07:25:31 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Sorry, but Omega is a calligraphic variant of Omicron. Absolutely no connection with
any Egyptian forebear whatsoever.
And Baal has nothing to do with Egypt.
First I have to make a precicision. Greek alphabets had between 22 and 27
letters. I meant the Ionian alphabet whose letters were also used as numerals,
from Alpha = 1 to Omega = 24. The Ionian shore of Anatolia belongs to Asia
Minor, and as the Greek alphabet was derived from the Phoenician one, Baal
in his emanation as the calf of the morning sun, rising from the tree of
life, could well account for aleph then alpha. The lower size omega strongly
resembles an Egyptian standart, emblem of the horns of the heavenly cow Hathor
bearing the solar disc, on top of a pole, only that in the lower case omega
the solar disc is shrunk to a narrow loop, while the circle is still present
in the upper case Omega, whereas now the horns are shrunk. I like the idea
of the Ionian alphabet representing the 24 hours from sunrise (Baal, Minoan
Baal later identified as Zeus) to sunrise (Hathor, solar disc on her horns).
The Ionian Alpha as 1 and Omega as 24 would then be a reference to Asia Minor
and Egypt, both having been the basis for the metaphorical Greek sunrise.
Peter T. Daniels
2017-05-10 12:16:35 UTC
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Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Sorry, but Omega is a calligraphic variant of Omicron. Absolutely no connection with
any Egyptian forebear whatsoever.
And Baal has nothing to do with Egypt.
First I have to make a precicision. Greek alphabets had between 22 and 27
letters.
That is simply not true.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
I meant the Ionian alphabet whose letters were also used as numerals,
from Alpha = 1 to Omega = 24. The Ionian shore of Anatolia belongs to Asia
Minor, and as the Greek alphabet was derived from the Phoenician one, Baal
in his emanation as the calf of the morning sun, rising from the tree of
life, could well account for aleph then alpha. The lower size omega strongly
resembles an Egyptian standart, emblem of the horns of the heavenly cow Hathor
bearing the solar disc, on top of a pole, only that in the lower case omega
the solar disc is shrunk to a narrow loop, while the circle is still present
in the upper case Omega, whereas now the horns are shrunk. I like the idea
of the Ionian alphabet representing the 24 hours from sunrise (Baal, Minoan
Baal later identified as Zeus) to sunrise (Hathor, solar disc on her horns).
The Ionian Alpha as 1 and Omega as 24 would then be a reference to Asia Minor
and Egypt, both having been the basis for the metaphorical Greek sunrise.
You really have no idea what you're talking about.
Franz Gnaedinger
2017-05-11 06:26:12 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
That is simply not true.
Yes, it's true, taken from Harald Haarmann's book on writing, which
I found in a thrift shop for 4 (four) Swiss francs. Haarmann had been
the director of the German Archaeological Institute at Istanbul,
responsible for the Göbekli Tepe excavation led by late Klaus Schmidt.
He gives various Greek alphabets. For example the archaic one from Thera,
7th century BC, has a long o given as tiny circle with a central dot,
corresponding to the hieroglyph of the supreme Egyptian god Ra who
appeared in the solar disc, while the Milesian alphabet from the 6th
century BC has a genuine Omega that can bee seen as sun rising from
the horizon. Milet on the Ionian coast of the Aegaean Sea was the home
of important mathematicians and astronomers and natural philosophers.
One of them, I claim, had the idea of linking the alphabet to the cycles
of hours, from sunrise to sunrise.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
You really have no idea what you're talking about.
I stand by my interpretation, whether you find it silly or silly.
Peter T. Daniels
2017-05-11 11:28:03 UTC
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Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Peter T. Daniels
That is simply not true.
Yes, it's true, taken from Harald Haarmann's book on writing, which
Oh, jeez.

*Univeralgeschichte der Schrift*?

I told him that I'd picked up his little booklet on writing at th Cologne Roemisch-
Germanisch Museum bookshop, and he told me he'd thought I didn't read German.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
I found in a thrift shop for 4 (four) Swiss francs. Haarmann had been
the director of the German Archaeological Institute at Istanbul,
responsible for the Göbekli Tepe excavation led by late Klaus Schmidt.
He gives various Greek alphabets.
None of them has 27 letters.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
For example the archaic one from Thera,
7th century BC, has a long o given as tiny circle with a central dot,
Who says it's a "long o"?
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
corresponding
Absolutely not.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
to the hieroglyph of the supreme Egyptian god Ra who
appeared in the solar disc, while the Milesian alphabet from the 6th
century BC has a genuine Omega that can bee seen as sun rising from
the horizon. Milet on the Ionian coast of the Aegaean Sea was the home
of important mathematicians and astronomers and natural philosophers.
One of them, I claim, had the idea of linking the alphabet to the cycles
of hours, from sunrise to sunrise.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
You really have no idea what you're talking about.
I stand by my interpretation, whether you find it silly or silly.
It doesn't come to that. It's based on false information.
Ruud Harmsen
2017-05-11 15:38:51 UTC
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Thu, 11 May 2017 04:28:03 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
He gives various Greek alphabets.
None of them has 27 letters.
Arabic has.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Peter T. Daniels
2017-05-11 15:49:46 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Peter T. Daniels
That is simply not true.
Yes, it's true, taken from Harald Haarmann's book on writing, which
Oh, jeez.
*Univeralgeschichte der Schrift*?
I told him that I'd picked up his little booklet on writing at th Cologne Roemisch-
Germanisch Museum bookshop, and he told me he'd thought I didn't read German.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
I found in a thrift shop for 4 (four) Swiss francs. Haarmann had been
the director of the German Archaeological Institute at Istanbul,
responsible for the Göbekli Tepe excavation led by late Klaus Schmidt.
He gives various Greek alphabets.
None of them has 27 letters.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
For example the archaic one from Thera,
7th century BC, has a long o given as tiny circle with a central dot,
corresponding
Absolutely not.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
to the hieroglyph of the supreme Egyptian god Ra who
appeared in the solar disc, while the Milesian alphabet from the 6th
century BC has a genuine Omega that can bee seen as sun rising from
the horizon. Milet on the Ionian coast of the Aegaean Sea was the home
of important mathematicians and astronomers and natural philosophers.
One of them, I claim, had the idea of linking the alphabet to the cycles
of hours, from sunrise to sunrise.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
You really have no idea what you're talking about.
I stand by my interpretation, whether you find it silly or silly.
It doesn't come to that. It's based on false information.
I've looked at Haarmann's figure (fig. 167). Thera has 22 letters. Thera and
Corinth were both known already in 1883 (Taylor) to use a dotted o (the name "omicron"
is much later) for long o.

No Greek alphabet had 27 letters. The most any of them has is 24 letters, just like
the Classical (and modern) alphabet that was standardized in 402 BCE. The "Classical"
column has 27 characters in it because the three Phoenician letters that were
retained for use as numerals are accorded their numerical place. They are not letters
of the alphabet. At no time were there 27 letters in any Greek alphabet. Those three
were discarded before any of the "supplementals" were added after T.
Franz Gnaedinger
2017-05-12 06:56:57 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
I've looked at Haarmann's figure (fig. 167). Thera has 22 letters. Thera and
Corinth were both known already in 1883 (Taylor) to use a dotted o (the name "omicron"
is much later) for long o.
No Greek alphabet had 27 letters. The most any of them has is 24 letters, just like
the Classical (and modern) alphabet that was standardized in 402 BCE. The "Classical"
column has 27 characters in it because the three Phoenician letters that were
retained for use as numerals are accorded their numerical place. They are not letters
of the alphabet. At no time were there 27 letters in any Greek alphabet. Those three
were discarded before any of the "supplementals" were added after T.
Are we speaking of the same book? Harald Haarmann, Universalgeschichte
der Schrift 'Universal History of Writing' first edition Campus 1990,
Public Library New York SASB M2, IFE 96-1255, available, use in library ?
If you go there you may also look up the book by Derk Ohlenroth on the
abaton of the Lycaean Zeus and Elaia's grove, in the same research room,
IFE 99-6189, available, use in library.
Peter T. Daniels
2017-05-12 13:41:59 UTC
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Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I've looked at Haarmann's figure (fig. 167). Thera has 22 letters. Thera and
Corinth were both known already in 1883 (Taylor) to use a dotted o (the name "omicron"
is much later) for long o.
No Greek alphabet had 27 letters. The most any of them has is 24 letters, just like
the Classical (and modern) alphabet that was standardized in 402 BCE. The "Classical"
column has 27 characters in it because the three Phoenician letters that were
retained for use as numerals are accorded their numerical place. They are not letters
of the alphabet. At no time were there 27 letters in any Greek alphabet. Those three
were discarded before any of the "supplementals" were added after T.
Are we speaking of the same book? Harald Haarmann, Universalgeschichte
der Schrift 'Universal History of Writing' first edition Campus 1990,
Public Library New York SASB M2, IFE 96-1255, available, use in library ?
If you go there you may also look up the book by Derk Ohlenroth on the
abaton of the Lycaean Zeus and Elaia's grove, in the same research room,
IFE 99-6189, available, use in library.
My copy has a penciled price of $57 on the flyleaf. What you paid for it is a lot
closer to its value.

Why are you evading the question?

Look at Fig. 167, count the letters in the columns for the various epichoric alphabets.
Franz Gnaedinger
2017-05-13 08:01:13 UTC
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from sunrise to sunrise (Ionic alphabet mirroring a day)

Milet on the Ionian coast of Anatolia was the home of important mathematicians,
astronomers, and natural philosophers. Imagine that one of them developed the
Ionic alphabet some 2,700 years ago, 24 letters that also had numerical vaules,
from Alpha = 1 via via Thaeta = 8 and Pi = 16 to Omega = 24, and that he tried
to synchronize the 24 letters with the 24 hours of a special day, summer
solstice, June 21 in our calendar, 24 hours from June 21 at 4 o'clock
to June 22 at 4 o'clock

June 21, early morning, 4 o'clock, beginning of hour 1, hour Alpha (a)
June 21, midday, 12 o'clock, end of hour 8, hour Thaeta (th)
June 21, evening, 20 o'clock, end of hour 16, hour Pi (p)
June 22, early morning, 4 o'clock, end of hour 24, hour Omega (long o)

June 21, early morning, 4 o'clock, beginning of hour 1 or hour Alpha.
Just before dawn, bright Aldebaran hovers above the eastern horizon,
main star in Taurus 'Bull', from TOR for bull in motion. Aleph then Alpha
represented the head of an ox (that can still be seen when you turn our A
upside down). This might originally have been a reference to Aldebaran,
and to Baal as golden sun calf rising from the tree of life in the morning.
The Minoan Baal was later identified with Zeus. Aldebaran and the Pleiads
were the Golden Gate of Babylonian astronomy, passed by sun and moon and
planets.

June 21, midday, 12 o'clock, end of hour 8 or hour Thaeta. Now the sun reaches
the highest point in the sky, not only the one of the day but also of the year.
In some cases the Thaeta was given as a tiny circle with a central dot, which
also was the hieroglyph of the supreme Egyptian god Ra who manifested himself
in the solar disc. In most other cases, the early Thaeta was a tiny circle
with an inscribed cross, together known as ringcross, according to my studies
the emblem of the supreme sky and weather god. TYR means to overcome in the
double sense of rule and give, emphatic Middle Helladic Sseyr (Phaistos Disc,
Derk Ohlenroth) Doric Sseus (Wilhlem Larfeld) Homeric Zeus. PAS means
everywhere (in a plain), here, south and north of me, east and west of me,
in all five places, wherefrom Greek pas pan 'all, every' and pente penta-
'five'. TYR PAS named the supreme sky and weather god who overcame everybody
everywhere in weather and time that rule our lives but are also given to us
so that we make the best of them. TYR PAS would have been visualized by
the ringcross of the Bronze Age. A strongly polished version became French
temps 'weather, time', TYR PAS English time and PAS TYR English weather.
Greek theos 'god' begins with a Thaeta and derived from DhAG meaning able,
good in the sense of able. Zeus was a most able one, supreme god in the
Greek pantheon.

June 21, evening, 20 o'clock, end of hour 16 or hour Pi. The sun disappeared
below the western horizon. One version of the early Pi that survived in the
classical Greek alphabet can be seen as a high narrow gate, so the setting
sun passed an imaginary gate in disappearing. Pi from periphaeres 'circular,
round' wherefrom English periphery named the circumference and then also
the number of the circle, here the circle of the 24 hours that were mirrored
in the Ionic alphabet of 24 letters.

June 22, early morning, end of hour 24 or hour Omega. In the archaic alphabet
from Thera, 7th century BC, the long o was given as a circle with a central
dot, hieroglyph of Ra in Egypt, whereupon the Omega, apparently invented
in Milet, evokes the solar disc rising from the horizon, and the lower case
the solar disc on the horns of Hathor, Egyptian goddess in her emanation
of the heavenly cow (especially on an Egyptian standard). The wife of Zeus
had been cow-eyed Hera, descendant of the Divine Hind from Altamira who
called life into existence, also moon bulls, thus creating time, lunations
or synodic months, periods of 30 29 30 29 30 29 30 29 30 29 30 ... days.
As Divine Hind Woman she appeared in Orion below Aldebaran where the moon
bulls waited to go on their heavenly mission, while the sun passes the
Golden Gate framed by Aldebaran and the Pleiads.

From Alpha to Omega, from dawn to dawn, from sunrise to sunrise, while
the letters of the Ionic alphabet allowed to tell what happens in a day,
and from day to day ...

---

Peter, thank you for the correction. 3 of the 27 signs of the classical
Greek alphabet are just numerals, as you told me.
Franz Gnaedinger
2017-05-16 07:20:53 UTC
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Post by Franz Gnaedinger
from sunrise to sunrise (Ionic alphabet mirroring a day)
Milet on the Ionian coast of Anatolia was the home of important mathematicians,
astronomers, and natural philosophers. Imagine that one of them developed the
Ionic alphabet some 2,700 years ago, 24 letters that also had numerical vaules,
from Alpha = 1 via via Thaeta = 8 and Pi = 16 to Omega = 24, and that he tried
to synchronize the 24 letters with the 24 hours of a special day, summer
solstice, June 21 in our calendar, 24 hours from June 21 at 4 o'clock
to June 22 at 4 o'clock
June 21, early morning, 4 o'clock, beginning of hour 1, hour Alpha (a)
June 21, midday, 12 o'clock, end of hour 8, hour Thaeta (th)
June 21, evening, 20 o'clock, end of hour 16, hour Pi (p)
June 22, early morning, 4 o'clock, end of hour 24, hour Omega (long o)
June 21, early morning, 4 o'clock, beginning of hour 1 or hour Alpha.
Just before dawn, bright Aldebaran hovers above the eastern horizon,
main star in Taurus 'Bull', from TOR for bull in motion. Aleph then Alpha
represented the head of an ox (that can still be seen when you turn our A
upside down). This might originally have been a reference to Aldebaran,
and to Baal as golden sun calf rising from the tree of life in the morning.
The Minoan Baal was later identified with Zeus. Aldebaran and the Pleiads
were the Golden Gate of Babylonian astronomy, passed by sun and moon and
planets.
June 21, midday, 12 o'clock, end of hour 8 or hour Thaeta. Now the sun reaches
the highest point in the sky, not only the one of the day but also of the year.
In some cases the Thaeta was given as a tiny circle with a central dot, which
also was the hieroglyph of the supreme Egyptian god Ra who manifested himself
in the solar disc. In most other cases, the early Thaeta was a tiny circle
with an inscribed cross, together known as ringcross, according to my studies
the emblem of the supreme sky and weather god. TYR means to overcome in the
double sense of rule and give, emphatic Middle Helladic Sseyr (Phaistos Disc,
Derk Ohlenroth) Doric Sseus (Wilhlem Larfeld) Homeric Zeus. PAS means
everywhere (in a plain), here, south and north of me, east and west of me,
in all five places, wherefrom Greek pas pan 'all, every' and pente penta-
'five'. TYR PAS named the supreme sky and weather god who overcame everybody
everywhere in weather and time that rule our lives but are also given to us
so that we make the best of them. TYR PAS would have been visualized by
the ringcross of the Bronze Age. A strongly polished version became French
temps 'weather, time', TYR PAS English time and PAS TYR English weather.
Greek theos 'god' begins with a Thaeta and derived from DhAG meaning able,
good in the sense of able. Zeus was a most able one, supreme god in the
Greek pantheon.
June 21, evening, 20 o'clock, end of hour 16 or hour Pi. The sun disappeared
below the western horizon. One version of the early Pi that survived in the
classical Greek alphabet can be seen as a high narrow gate, so the setting
sun passed an imaginary gate in disappearing. Pi from periphaeres 'circular,
round' wherefrom English periphery named the circumference and then also
the number of the circle, here the circle of the 24 hours that were mirrored
in the Ionic alphabet of 24 letters.
June 22, early morning, end of hour 24 or hour Omega. In the archaic alphabet
from Thera, 7th century BC, the long o was given as a circle with a central
dot, hieroglyph of Ra in Egypt, whereupon the Omega, apparently invented
in Milet, evokes the solar disc rising from the horizon, and the lower case
the solar disc on the horns of Hathor, Egyptian goddess in her emanation
of the heavenly cow (especially on an Egyptian standard). The wife of Zeus
had been cow-eyed Hera, descendant of the Divine Hind from Altamira who
called life into existence, also moon bulls, thus creating time, lunations
or synodic months, periods of 30 29 30 29 30 29 30 29 30 29 30 ... days.
As Divine Hind Woman she appeared in Orion below Aldebaran where the moon
bulls waited to go on their heavenly mission, while the sun passes the
Golden Gate framed by Aldebaran and the Pleiads.
From Alpha to Omega, from dawn to dawn, from sunrise to sunrise, while
the letters of the Ionic alphabet allowed to tell what happens in a day,
and from day to day ...
from sunrise to sunrise (continuation)

Is it a coincidence that the Iliad and Odyssey have
each 24 books?

Now let us consider the numbers 1 8 16 24. As beginning of hour 1 (early
morning on the summer solstice) and end of hour 8 (midday) and end of
hour 16 (later evening) and end of hour 24 (early morning again) they
divide a cycle of 24 hours into 8 plus 8 plus 8 hours. Another arrangement
of the same numbers makes them grow beyond a day in a pattern that
can be prolonged

1 = 1 x 1
1 + 8 = 3 x 3
1 + 8 + 16 = 5 x 5
1 + 8 + 16 + 24 = 7 x 7

We have then a circular movement in the hours of a day mirrored in the
Ionic alphabet, and a linear one in a sequence of days and a written text.

As for the early morning of the summer solstice, also the glorious rotunda
of Lascaux represents that moment of the year, the red mare rising above
the ledge symbolizing the midsummer sun rising above the horizon, and
the proud white bull by her side a full moon occurring at the same time,
ideal start of an eight-year period in the lunisolar calendar of Lascaux.
Peter T. Daniels
2017-05-16 12:58:29 UTC
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Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Is it a coincidence that the Iliad and Odyssey have
each 24 books?
No.
Ruud Harmsen
2017-05-16 13:54:34 UTC
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Tue, 16 May 2017 05:58:29 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Is it a coincidence that the Iliad and Odyssey have
each 24 books?
No.
Done on purpose, for reasons of metre and structure.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dactylic_hexameter#Structure
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Os_Lus%C3%ADadas#Internal_structure
etc etc.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Ruud Harmsen
2017-05-16 13:55:13 UTC
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Tue, 16 May 2017 05:58:29 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Is it a coincidence that the Iliad and Odyssey have
each 24 books?
No.
You won the annual shortest relevant answer prize.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Franz Gnaedinger
2017-05-17 07:34:24 UTC
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No.
Thank you for agreeing with me that it was not a coincidence that the Iliad
and Odyssey have each 24 books. In the links Ruud Harmsen provided I found
no reason for the 24 books (although I must confess that I only skimmed
the web pages). My explanation is that the number 24 must have played an
important role, as it is the number of letters in the Ionic alphabet,
and the number of hours in a day, with a relation between them. Milet
was most wealthy in the 7th and 6th century BC. I believe there was
enthusiasm in the air, comparable to the 1990s when computer programmers
felt like wizards or magicians. While the Ionic alphabet mirrors a cosmic
circle, the cycle of 24 hours generated by the sun revolving around the
Earth (actually by the Earth revolving around its axis), computer programming
finds a cosmic equivalent in the holographic theory that says the world
is the hologram generated by the information written on the surface of a
hollow sphere. Writing and cosmic circle, programming and cosmic sphere ...
Ruud Harmsen
2017-05-17 09:51:03 UTC
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Wed, 17 May 2017 00:34:24 -0700 (PDT): Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
My explanation is that the number 24 must have played an
important role,
24 if two times 12, which has been sacred since the invention of the
wheel and before, probably because it so nicely contains all the
factors 1, 2, 3 and 4, other that 7, which contains none.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Peter T. Daniels
2017-05-17 13:04:59 UTC
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Post by Franz Gnaedinger
No.
Thank you for agreeing with me that it was not a coincidence that the Iliad
and Odyssey have each 24 books. In the links Ruud Harmsen provided I found
no reason for the 24 books (although I must confess that I only skimmed
the web pages). My explanation is that the number 24 must have played an
important role, as it is the number of letters in the Ionic alphabet,
and the number of hours in a day,
What's your evidence of a 24-hour day in "Homer"'s time?

An old-fashioned way of referring to the books is to letter them consecutively, one
using Greek letters, the other Latin. How far back does that go?

This is _not_ the early use of the letters as numerals, because in that system they
went by enneads: 1 - 9, 10 - 90, etc.
Franz Gnaedinger
2017-05-18 06:45:49 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
What's your evidence of a 24-hour day in "Homer"'s time?
As I said, already an Egyptian day had 24 hours, only that the lengths of
hours varied, on a short day in winter an hour of the day was short, and
an hour of the night long; in summer the other way round. I guess the
Milesians ended that complicated system and introduced a day of 24 hours.
Around the equinoxes day and night were equally long. In the Odyssey
I found this: when the last third of the night came to an end (or so).
If the day was 24 hours, the day 12 hours, and the night 12 hours,
one third is 4 hours; night 4 hours from 18 to 22 o'clock, 4 hours
from 22 to 2 o c'lock, 4 hours from 2 to 6 o'clock, end of night.
If I remember correctly, from a book on the mechanism of Antikythera,
that most elaborate and truly amazing machine was traced back to Milet,
or at least a most influential astronomer of the Ionian capital, and it
makes sense that those astronomers did away with the complicated 24 hours
of a day in the Egpytian system but calculated with 24 hours of the same
length each. En bref, I have no direct evidence but circumstantial one,
and rely on a dictum by the French archaeologist Cael de Guichen:
Archaeology is not an exact science, but a speculative one - a science
of imagination ... Note well: a *science* of imagination.
Peter T. Daniels
2017-05-18 11:16:00 UTC
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Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Peter T. Daniels
What's your evidence of a 24-hour day in "Homer"'s time?
As I said, already an Egyptian day had 24 hours, only that the lengths of
hours varied, on a short day in winter an hour of the day was short, and
an hour of the night long; in summer the other way round. I guess the
Milesians ended that complicated system and introduced a day of 24 hours.
Around the equinoxes day and night were equally long. In the Odyssey
I found this: when the last third of the night came to an end (or so).
If the day was 24 hours, the day 12 hours, and the night 12 hours,
one third is 4 hours; night 4 hours from 18 to 22 o'clock, 4 hours
from 22 to 2 o c'lock, 4 hours from 2 to 6 o'clock, end of night.
If I remember correctly, from a book on the mechanism of Antikythera,
that most elaborate and truly amazing machine was traced back to Milet,
or at least a most influential astronomer of the Ionian capital, and it
makes sense that those astronomers did away with the complicated 24 hours
of a day in the Egpytian system but calculated with 24 hours of the same
length each. En bref, I have no direct evidence but circumstantial one,
Archaeology is not an exact science, but a speculative one - a science
of imagination ... Note well: a *science* of imagination.
Finally you admit that there is no basis at all for your fantasies.

How many centuries ago did Cael de Guichen write that falsehood?
Franz Gnaedinger
2017-05-19 06:48:57 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Finally you admit that there is no basis at all for your fantasies.
How many centuries ago did Cael de Guichen write that falsehood?
Modern society would collapse if we returned to hours of varying lengths
depending on season and geographical latitude and local horizon: 12 longer
or shorter hours from dawn to dusk, and 12 more shorter or longer hours from
dusk to dawn. The varying hours worked for Ancient Egypt, but at one time
in the past the system was changed. My claim or hypothesis: this might have
happened on the Ionian coast of Anatlolia sometime in the Late Archaic period,
(19th till 6th century BC), perhaps a couple of decades before 700 BC. Milet
was an important center of astronomy and mathematics and natural philosophy,
and the truly astounding mechanism of Antikythera that possibly goes back to
a Milesian astronomer could not have worked with hours of varying lengths
- cogwheels can't process varying hours, they need a fixed hour.

An archaeological congress was held in Southern Germany in 1899 where
it was concluded by voting that all of cave art is a fake. That may be
your favorite model in science: let us vote about what is true and what
is not. Gael de Guichen is a French expert on cave art, and I read his
statement in an article on Lascaux in the 2000s: Archaeology is not
an exact science but a speculative one - a science of imagination.
Another dictum, guess from whom: Imagination is more important than
knowledge, for imagination embraces the whole world while knowledge
covers only what we already know (Albert Einstein, in my wording).
Franz Gnaedinger
2017-05-20 07:37:36 UTC
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Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Modern society would collapse if we returned to hours of varying lengths
depending on season and geographical latitude and local horizon: 12 longer
or shorter hours from dawn to dusk, and 12 more shorter or longer hours from
dusk to dawn. The varying hours worked for Ancient Egypt, but at one time
in the past the system was changed. My claim or hypothesis: this might have
happened on the Ionian coast of Anatlolia sometime in the Late Archaic period,
(19th till 6th century BC), perhaps a couple of decades before 700 BC. Milet
was an important center of astronomy and mathematics and natural philosophy,
and the truly astounding mechanism of Antikythera that possibly goes back to
a Milesian astronomer could not have worked with hours of varying lengths
- cogwheels can't process varying hours, they need a fixed hour.
An archaeological congress was held in Southern Germany in 1899 where
it was concluded by voting that all of cave art is a fake. That may be
your favorite model in science: let us vote about what is true and what
is not. Gael de Guichen is a French expert on cave art, and I read his
statement in an article on Lascaux in the 2000s: Archaeology is not
an exact science but a speculative one - a science of imagination.
Another dictum, guess from whom: Imagination is more important than
knowledge, for imagination embraces the whole world while knowledge
covers only what we already know (Albert Einstein, in my wording).
Googling for "day of 24 hours" I found the Egyptian version

day-time: ten hours, plus one hour for the morning twilight
and another hour for the evening twilight, in all 12 hours
night-time: 12 hours of a different length

but no information about where and when the day of 24 equal hours originated,
so I propose Milet in around 750 BC

midwinter, day-time 8 hours, night-time 16 hours
equinoxes, day-time 12 hours, night-time 12 hours
midsummer, day-time 16 hours, night-time 8 hours
average, day-time 12 hours, night-time 12 hours

Odyssey 10:470 the long days vanished - end of summer
15:392 endless nights - winter
14:483 Finally, in the last third of the night,
when the stars disappeared - average night of 12 hours,
from 2 to 6 o'clock in the morning

The midsummer cycle

8 hours from 4 to 12 o'clock
8 hours from 12 to 20 o'clock
8 hours from 20 to 4 o'clock

would have been mirrored in the Ionic alphabet, with Alpha 1, Thaeta 8,
Pi 16, Omega 24

4 o'clock, beginning of hour Alpha, dawn, sunrise
12 o'clock, end of hour Thaeta, midday
20 o'clock, end of hour Pi, sunset, dusk
4 o'clock again, end of hour Omega, dawn, sunrise

From Alpha to Omega, from dawn to dawn, from sunrise to sunrise ...

The much simpler Milesian day of 24 equal hours would have given wing
to Ionian astronomy, the rise of which later on allowed Hipparchus to
prepare the ground for the Antikythera mechanism - if he didn't design
it himself. He was born around 190 BC in the Hellenistic settlement of
Nikaia, modern Iznik, NW Anatolia, not very far from Istanbul, and then
lived and worked on Rhodes, some one hundred kilometers south of Milet.

Another explanation of the day of 24 equal hours might be seafaring.
The Egyptians avoided the sea, considering it the realm of evil Seth,
whereas the Greeks were excellent sailors, and needed orientation during
the night by observing the stars and constellations. The horizon of 360
degrees offers a simple clock: 15 degrees represent one hour.

The farther we go back in time the more the past gets fragmented. We need
plenty imagination in order to connect the fragments and fill the gaps
and by and by gain a halfway reliable picture.

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