Discussion:
Paleo-etymology and ancient cave-shelters
(too old to reply)
Daud Deden
2017-08-13 19:20:02 UTC
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I'm starting to check the names of the caves associated with early AMHs (Anatomically Modern Homo sapiens) or hominin remains for possible paleo-etymologies, I'm not claiming these as factual, but as reasonable interpetations.

est. 80ka
Bhimbetke (Narmada River, central India) Bambatwa-Ebembe(Mbuti: body painting) = ceremoniously painted (cave)wall

est. 72ka
Lida Ajer (Sumatra) may be Lidah Air (Modern Malay) = tongue water

["Sumatra" from Sumbatwa = Xyua + mBatwa = Sieve + Pygmy clan which uses click consonants per Merrit Ruhlen, linguist)]

120ka? (uncertain date)
Mata Menge (Flores) = Mata + menge = eye/point/hole + dark(mengelap),

50ka? (uncertain date)
Ling Bua (Flores) = Ling + Bua = zero or ceiling(?) + cave (cf. (Malay: gua cave)

est. 60ka
Madjedbembe (Queensland, North Australia)= Image-magic + ebembe(Mbuti: body painting) = ceremoniously glitter-painted(cave)wall

est. 55ka
Booti (island, Northwest Australia) = Birth/beget/mother = Mbo(oldest African YDNA; Mbo in Balinese: mother) + uterine-youth-utility~fertility(?) ~ BaM.buti(Congo Ituri rainforest Pygmy tribe)

I need to find the indigenous names of some more caves:
Sulawesi cave with world's oldest painted walls ?
Laos Monkey Cave (Pygmy skull fossil) ?
Borneo (Spirit?) Cave ? 45KA?
Toraja burial caves
Chauvet (France) and other European painted caves with odd or ancient unknown names carried since antiquity.
Southern African cave shelters with artifacts (ochre crayons, etched eggshells like Howieson Poort ~ 65ka

Note: Spirit/Spooky = haunt(English) = hantu(Malay:white-faced ghost) = Kabuki(Japan:white-faced ghost theatre) = Kaoáíbógí(Piraha tribe, Maici River, Amazon, Brazil: white-faced spirit guide/theatre)
Franz Gnaedinger
2017-08-14 07:00:40 UTC
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Post by Daud Deden
I'm starting to check the names of the caves associated with early AMHs (Anatomically Modern Homo sapiens) or hominin remains for possible paleo-etymologies, I'm not claiming these as factual, but as reasonable interpetations.
est. 80ka
Bhimbetke (Narmada River, central India) Bambatwa-Ebembe(Mbuti: body painting) = ceremoniously painted (cave)wall
est. 72ka
Lida Ajer (Sumatra) may be Lidah Air (Modern Malay) = tongue water
["Sumatra" from Sumbatwa = Xyua + mBatwa = Sieve + Pygmy clan which uses click consonants per Merrit Ruhlen, linguist)]
120ka? (uncertain date)
Mata Menge (Flores) = Mata + menge = eye/point/hole + dark(mengelap),
50ka? (uncertain date)
Ling Bua (Flores) = Ling + Bua = zero or ceiling(?) + cave (cf. (Malay: gua cave)
est. 60ka
Madjedbembe (Queensland, North Australia)= Image-magic + ebembe(Mbuti: body painting) = ceremoniously glitter-painted(cave)wall
est. 55ka
Booti (island, Northwest Australia) = Birth/beget/mother = Mbo(oldest African YDNA; Mbo in Balinese: mother) + uterine-youth-utility~fertility(?) ~ BaM.buti(Congo Ituri rainforest Pygmy tribe)
Sulawesi cave with world's oldest painted walls ?
Laos Monkey Cave (Pygmy skull fossil) ?
Borneo (Spirit?) Cave ? 45KA?
Toraja burial caves
Chauvet (France) and other European painted caves with odd or ancient unknown names carried since antiquity.
Southern African cave shelters with artifacts (ochre crayons, etched eggshells like Howieson Poort ~ 65ka
Note: Spirit/Spooky = haunt(English) = hantu(Malay:white-faced ghost) = Kabuki(Japan:white-faced ghost theatre) = Kaoáíbógí(Piraha tribe, Maici River, Amazon, Brazil: white-faced spirit guide/theatre)
What exactly is your aim? The names of Paleolithic caves are recent,
for example the Chauvet cave is named for Monsieur Chauvet who was among
the few people who discovered and explored that amazing cave.

More interesting is translating the elements of cave painting into language.
The oldest element identified so far is a red ocher dot in the Altamira
cave, 41,000 plus minus years old. In my opinion, a red ocher dot stands
for life SAI while the cave wall stands for the sky CA, together SAI CA
which might have become Greek psychae 'soul'. Such a red ocher dot would
have claimed a second life in the beyond for a worthy soul. Greek psychae
also means butterfly; amazingly a butterfly is found among the drawings
in the Chauvet cave, while the large domino five with an additional dot
in elevated position in the Brunel chamber may be read as follows: PAS
for everywhere (in a plain), here, south and north of me, east and west
of me, in all five places, Greek pas pan 'all, every' pente penta- 'five',
and again CA for sky, together: may the bullman (depicted on a stalactite
in the rear chamber of the cave) be reborn by the goddess of the Summer
Triangle Deneb Vega Atair (Venus on the same stalactite) in the sky CA,
and may the bullman (a worthy supreme leader of the Lower Rhone Valley)
roam the sky in his next life as he roams (or roamed) the land in this life
- may he get everywhere PAS in the sky CA ...

Red ocher dots and hand impressions are also known from Indonesia, where
they are even older, some 60,000 year old, if memory serves. Do they have
the same meaning as the ones in European caves? imploring a second life
in the beyond for a worthy soul?
Yusuf B Gursey
2017-08-14 23:21:51 UTC
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Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Daud Deden
I'm starting to check the names of the caves associated with early AMHs (Anatomically Modern Homo sapiens) or hominin remains for possible paleo-etymologies, I'm not claiming these as factual, but as reasonable interpetations.
est. 80ka
Bhimbetke (Narmada River, central India) Bambatwa-Ebembe(Mbuti: body painting) = ceremoniously painted (cave)wall
est. 72ka
Lida Ajer (Sumatra) may be Lidah Air (Modern Malay) = tongue water
["Sumatra" from Sumbatwa = Xyua + mBatwa = Sieve + Pygmy clan which uses click consonants per Merrit Ruhlen, linguist)]
120ka? (uncertain date)
Mata Menge (Flores) = Mata + menge = eye/point/hole + dark(mengelap),
50ka? (uncertain date)
Ling Bua (Flores) = Ling + Bua = zero or ceiling(?) + cave (cf. (Malay: gua cave)
est. 60ka
Madjedbembe (Queensland, North Australia)= Image-magic + ebembe(Mbuti: body painting) = ceremoniously glitter-painted(cave)wall
est. 55ka
Booti (island, Northwest Australia) = Birth/beget/mother = Mbo(oldest African YDNA; Mbo in Balinese: mother) + uterine-youth-utility~fertility(?) ~ BaM.buti(Congo Ituri rainforest Pygmy tribe)
Sulawesi cave with world's oldest painted walls ?
Laos Monkey Cave (Pygmy skull fossil) ?
Borneo (Spirit?) Cave ? 45KA?
Toraja burial caves
Chauvet (France) and other European painted caves with odd or ancient unknown names carried since antiquity.
Southern African cave shelters with artifacts (ochre crayons, etched eggshells like Howieson Poort ~ 65ka
Note: Spirit/Spooky = haunt(English) = hantu(Malay:white-faced ghost) = Kabuki(Japan:white-faced ghost theatre) = Kaoáíbógí(Piraha tribe, Maici River, Amazon, Brazil: white-faced spirit guide/theatre)
What exactly is your aim? The names of Paleolithic caves are recent,
That has never deterred you in the past. You called it "oscillation".
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
for example the Chauvet cave is named for Monsieur Chauvet who was among
the few people who discovered and explored that amazing cave.
More interesting is translating the elements of cave painting into language.
The oldest element identified so far is a red ocher dot in the Altamira
cave, 41,000 plus minus years old. In my opinion, a red ocher dot stands
for life SAI while the cave wall stands for the sky CA, together SAI CA
which might have become Greek psychae 'soul'. Such a red ocher dot would
have claimed a second life in the beyond for a worthy soul. Greek psychae
also means butterfly; amazingly a butterfly is found among the drawings
in the Chauvet cave, while the large domino five with an additional dot
in elevated position in the Brunel chamber may be read as follows: PAS
for everywhere (in a plain), here, south and north of me, east and west
of me, in all five places, Greek pas pan 'all, every' pente penta- 'five',
and again CA for sky, together: may the bullman (depicted on a stalactite
in the rear chamber of the cave) be reborn by the goddess of the Summer
Triangle Deneb Vega Atair (Venus on the same stalactite) in the sky CA,
and may the bullman (a worthy supreme leader of the Lower Rhone Valley)
roam the sky in his next life as he roams (or roamed) the land in this life
- may he get everywhere PAS in the sky CA ...
Red ocher dots and hand impressions are also known from Indonesia, where
they are even older, some 60,000 year old, if memory serves. Do they have
the same meaning as the ones in European caves? imploring a second life
in the beyond for a worthy soul?
Franz Gnaedinger
2017-08-15 06:55:40 UTC
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Post by Franz Gnaedinger
What exactly is your aim? The names of Paleolithic caves are recent,
for example the Chauvet cave is named for Monsieur Chauvet who was among
the few people who discovered and explored that amazing cave.
More interesting is translating the elements of cave painting into language.
The oldest element identified so far is a red ocher dot in the Altamira
cave, 41,000 plus minus years old. In my opinion, a red ocher dot stands
for life SAI while the cave wall stands for the sky CA, together SAI CA
which might have become Greek psychae 'soul'. Such a red ocher dot would
have claimed a second life in the beyond for a worthy soul. Greek psychae
also means butterfly; amazingly a butterfly is found among the drawings
in the Chauvet cave, while the large domino five with an additional dot
in elevated position in the Brunel chamber may be read as follows: PAS
for everywhere (in a plain), here, south and north of me, east and west
of me, in all five places, Greek pas pan 'all, every' pente penta- 'five',
and again CA for sky, together: may the bullman (depicted on a stalactite
in the rear chamber of the cave) be reborn by the goddess of the Summer
Triangle Deneb Vega Atair (Venus on the same stalactite) in the sky CA,
and may the bullman (a worthy supreme leader of the Lower Rhone Valley)
roam the sky in his next life as he roams (or roamed) the land in this life
- may he get everywhere PAS in the sky CA ...
Red ocher dots and hand impressions are also known from Indonesia, where
they are even older, some 60,000 year old, if memory serves. Do they have
the same meaning as the ones in European caves? imploring a second life
in the beyond for a worthy soul?
Having looked up a film on the Chauvet cave I can give more information
about the butterfly. It appears in the passage in the middle of the cave
and is a small perhaps life-sized red ocher butterfly at the bottom of
a sinter framed vertical stripe, heading upward. I see it as a variation
of the red ocher dots on a cave wall that read

SAI CA pSAI CA psychae 'soul, butterfly'

So a butterfly might have taken away the soul of a worthy dead and carried
it upward to heavens - in the imagination of the Stone Age people some
36,000 or 32,000 years ago.

A remarkable common feature in European cave art and in the rock art of
Southern Africa are animals emerging from and disappearing into clefts and
niches in the rock, anticipating Vladimir Vernadsky's famous dictum about
life as metamorphosis of rock. We have here very ancient and widespread
ideas about life. The idea of life emerging from rock, and especially
moon bulls called into life by the Divine Hind is the topic of the
Altamira cave. All caves I interpreted are concerned with the circle
of life and a next life in the beyond. Maybe this is a constant in all of
cave and rock art?
Daud Deden
2017-08-15 22:53:21 UTC
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Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
What exactly is your aim? The names of Paleolithic caves are recent,
for example the Chauvet cave is named for Monsieur Chauvet who was among
the few people who discovered and explored that amazing cave.
More interesting is translating the elements of cave painting into language.
The oldest element identified so far is a red ocher dot in the Altamira
cave, 41,000 plus minus years old. In my opinion, a red ocher dot stands
for life SAI while the cave wall stands for the sky CA, together SAI CA
which might have become Greek psychae 'soul'. Such a red ocher dot would
have claimed a second life in the beyond for a worthy soul. Greek psychae
also means butterfly; amazingly a butterfly is found among the drawings
in the Chauvet cave, while the large domino five with an additional dot
in elevated position in the Brunel chamber may be read as follows: PAS
for everywhere (in a plain), here, south and north of me, east and west
of me, in all five places, Greek pas pan 'all, every' pente penta- 'five',
and again CA for sky, together: may the bullman (depicted on a stalactite
in the rear chamber of the cave) be reborn by the goddess of the Summer
Triangle Deneb Vega Atair (Venus on the same stalactite) in the sky CA,
and may the bullman (a worthy supreme leader of the Lower Rhone Valley)
roam the sky in his next life as he roams (or roamed) the land in this life
- may he get everywhere PAS in the sky CA ...
Red ocher dots and hand impressions are also known from Indonesia, where
they are even older, some 60,000 year old, if memory serves. Do they have
the same meaning as the ones in European caves? imploring a second life
in the beyond for a worthy soul?
Having looked up a film on the Chauvet cave I can give more information
about the butterfly.
Mbuti Pygmies see blowflies swarming the dead as angels taking the soul of the dead to heaven, perhaps source of zoroasterian vulture role.

Efe Pygmies per Kevin Duffy, had a central place in the rainforest, named for butterfly("Apalura"), close to where the god Tore(the big god) lived in a cave (Pygmies avoid caves) protected by a big snake.

Note: Apa = fire-afa.yre-afire-pyre, camp, hearth. Api(Malay) fire, Ape(Ainu) fire, Apo(India dialect)


It appears in the passage in the middle of the cave
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
and is a small perhaps life-sized red ocher butterfly at the bottom of
a sinter framed vertical stripe, heading upward. I see it as a variation
of the red ocher dots on a cave wall that read
SAI CA pSAI CA psychae 'soul, butterfly'
So a butterfly might have taken away the soul of a worthy dead and carried
it upward to heavens - in the imagination of the Stone Age people some
36,000 or 32,000 years ago.
Yes, perhaps either the wind (open steppe) or flapping thing (closed forest).
Heaven/heofan(Goth)/*Xya.uan/Zi.on(Heb)/high.on/Ti.an(Chinese)
Heaven ~ leaven bread ~ aloft ~ eleven (above 10) ~ elevate ~ syaduof(Arab)=lifting water to feed canal = shuttle-duffle bag = xiotl(Aztec) + doft/dove
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
A remarkable common feature in European cave art and in the rock art of
Southern Africa are animals emerging from and disappearing into clefts and
niches in the rock, anticipating Vladimir Vernadsky's famous dictum about
life as metamorphosis of rock. We have here very ancient and widespread
ideas about life. The idea of life emerging from rock, and especially
moon bulls called into life by the Divine Hind is the topic of the
Altamira cave. All caves I interpreted are concerned with the circle
of life and a next life in the beyond. Maybe this is a constant in all of
cave and rock art?
Holy/orderly/otli(Aztec)/olle!(Spanish)

I can't say, a bit wary of interpretations, though yours' seem ok so far.

The !hxaro etched eggshell (personalized canteen) exchange by !Kung San women started all trade at least 60ka (Howieson Poort So Af), to Australia (Tzuringa oystershell trade for inland wood plank to draw clan history).

Oldest bark canoes (followed by oldest log dugout canoe) started at Papua via Sago palm flour processing, leaving a rind-bark shell large enough for a Yali Pygmy to use on a river. Before that only coracles (inverted waterproof dome huts = domicile=dome-shield, as used by Herakles to cross sea, the original Jasons Argo in Black Sea was arigolu(India: Dayshine coracle) which was inversion of Pygmy mongolu(moon-mother dome hut). Bark canoes used by primitive Piraha(Amazon- no numbers or colors or creation stories), Yahgan (Chile Tierra del Fuego), Austl. Aborig.
Daud Deden
2017-08-15 23:13:55 UTC
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Post by Daud Deden
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
What exactly is your aim? The names of Paleolithic caves are recent,
for example the Chauvet cave is named for Monsieur Chauvet who was among
the few people who discovered and explored that amazing cave.
More interesting is translating the elements of cave painting into language.
The oldest element identified so far is a red ocher dot in the Altamira
cave, 41,000 plus minus years old. In my opinion, a red ocher dot stands
for life SAI while the cave wall stands for the sky CA, together SAI CA
which might have become Greek psychae 'soul'. Such a red ocher dot would
have claimed a second life in the beyond for a worthy soul. Greek psychae
also means butterfly; amazingly a butterfly is found among the drawings
in the Chauvet cave, while the large domino five with an additional dot
in elevated position in the Brunel chamber may be read as follows: PAS
for everywhere (in a plain), here, south and north of me, east and west
of me, in all five places, Greek pas pan 'all, every' pente penta- 'five',
and again CA for sky, together: may the bullman (depicted on a stalactite
in the rear chamber of the cave) be reborn by the goddess of the Summer
Triangle Deneb Vega Atair (Venus on the same stalactite) in the sky CA,
and may the bullman (a worthy supreme leader of the Lower Rhone Valley)
roam the sky in his next life as he roams (or roamed) the land in this life
- may he get everywhere PAS in the sky CA ...
Red ocher dots and hand impressions are also known from Indonesia, where
they are even older, some 60,000 year old, if memory serves. Do they have
the same meaning as the ones in European caves? imploring a second life
in the beyond for a worthy soul?
Having looked up a film on the Chauvet cave I can give more information
about the butterfly.
Mbuti Pygmies see blowflies swarming the dead as angels taking the soul of the dead to heaven, perhaps source of zoroasterian vulture role.
Efe Pygmies per Kevin Duffy, had a central place in the rainforest, named for butterfly("Apalura"), close to where the god Tore(the big god) lived in a cave (Pygmies avoid caves) protected by a big snake.
Note: Apa = fire-afa.yre-afire-pyre, camp, hearth. Api(Malay) fire, Ape(Ainu) fire, Apo(India dialect)
It appears in the passage in the middle of the cave
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
and is a small perhaps life-sized red ocher butterfly at the bottom of
a sinter framed vertical stripe, heading upward. I see it as a variation
of the red ocher dots on a cave wall that read
SAI CA pSAI CA psychae 'soul, butterfly'
So a butterfly might have taken away the soul of a worthy dead and carried
it upward to heavens - in the imagination of the Stone Age people some
36,000 or 32,000 years ago.
Yes, perhaps either the wind (open steppe) or flapping thing (closed forest).
Heaven/heofan(Goth)/*Xya.uan/Zi.on(Heb)/high.on/Ti.an(Chinese)
Heaven ~ leaven bread ~ aloft ~ eleven (above 10) ~ elevate ~ syaduof(Arab)=lifting water to feed canal = shuttle-duffle bag = xiotl(Aztec) + doft/dove
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
A remarkable common feature in European cave art and in the rock art of
Southern Africa are animals emerging from and disappearing into clefts and
niches in the rock, anticipating Vladimir Vernadsky's famous dictum about
life as metamorphosis of rock. We have here very ancient and widespread
ideas about life. The idea of life emerging from rock, and especially
moon bulls called into life by the Divine Hind is the topic of the
Altamira cave. All caves I interpreted are concerned with the circle
of life and a next life in the beyond. Maybe this is a constant in all of
cave and rock art?
Holy/orderly/otli(Aztec)/olle!(Spanish)
I can't say, a bit wary of interpretations, though yours' seem ok so far.
The !hxaro etched eggshell (personalized canteen) exchange by !Kung San women started all trade at least 60ka (Howieson Poort So Af), to Australia (Tzuringa oystershell trade for inland wood plank to draw clan history).
Oldest bark canoes (followed by oldest log dugout canoe) started at Papua via Sago palm flour processing, leaving a rind-bark shell large enough for a Yali Pygmy to use on a river. Before that only coracles (inverted waterproof dome huts = domicile=dome-shield, as used by Herakles to cross sea, the original Jasons Argo in Black Sea was arigolu(India: Dayshine coracle) which was inversion of Pygmy mongolu(moon-mother dome hut). Bark canoes used by primitive Piraha(Amazon- no numbers or colors or creation stories), Yahgan (Chile Tierra del Fuego), Austl. Aborig., Tasmanians, Chippewa birchbark canoes, Curragh/coracle all preceded log dugout canoes which required more evolved adze than Papuan sago processing tool.
Apalura(Efe Pygmy) ~ apple, Apollo, a-plume (feather or frond used to ignite the smoldering ember which Pygmies carried (no fire drill in rainforest)
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/08/170815095041.htm
plume ~ flume-flute
loom? not sure how linked to fire flapper/bellows. jarum(Malay) loom

Guanxi/Guandong CHina - Karst regions
Daud Deden
2017-08-15 22:28:46 UTC
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Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Daud Deden
I'm starting to check the names of the caves associated with early AMHs (Anatomically Modern Homo sapiens) or hominin remains for possible paleo-etymologies, I'm not claiming these as factual, but as reasonable interpetations.
est. 80ka
Bhimbetke (Narmada River, central India) Bambatwa-Ebembe(Mbuti: body painting) = ceremoniously painted (cave)wall
est. 72ka
Lida Ajer (Sumatra) may be Lidah Air (Modern Malay) = tongue water
["Sumatra" from Sumbatwa = Xyua + mBatwa = Sieve + Pygmy clan which uses click consonants per Merrit Ruhlen, linguist)]
120ka? (uncertain date)
Mata Menge (Flores) = Mata + menge = eye/point/hole + dark(mengelap),
50ka? (uncertain date)
Ling Bua (Flores) = Ling + Bua = zero or ceiling(?) + cave (cf. (Malay: gua cave)
est. 60ka
Madjedbembe (Queensland, North Australia)= Image-magic + ebembe(Mbuti: body painting) = ceremoniously glitter-painted(cave)wall
est. 55ka
Booti (island, Northwest Australia) = Birth/beget/mother = Mbo(oldest African YDNA; Mbo in Balinese: mother) + uterine-youth-utility~fertility(?) ~ BaM.buti(Congo Ituri rainforest Pygmy tribe)
Sulawesi cave with world's oldest painted walls ?
Laos Monkey Cave (Pygmy skull fossil) ?
Borneo (Spirit?) Cave ? 45KA?
Toraja burial caves
Chauvet (France) and other European painted caves with odd or ancient unknown names carried since antiquity.
Southern African cave shelters with artifacts (ochre crayons, etched eggshells like Howieson Poort ~ 65ka
Note: Spirit/Spooky = haunt(English) = hantu(Malay:white-faced ghost) = Kabuki(Japan:white-faced ghost theatre) = Kaoáíbógí(Piraha tribe, Maici River, Amazon, Brazil: white-faced spirit guide/theatre)
What exactly is your aim?
The linguistic journey of ancestral mankind ~
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
The names of Paleolithic caves are recent,
for example the Chauvet cave is named for Monsieur Chauvet who was among
the few people who discovered and explored that amazing cave.
Yes, most locally popular caves have 'new' names, others have translated old names, others have original/ancient names only known by the indigent local natives.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
More interesting is translating the elements of cave painting into language.
The oldest element identified so far is a red ocher dot in the Altamira
cave, 41,000 plus minus years old. In my opinion, a red ocher dot stands
for life SAI while the cave wall stands for the sky CA, together SAI CA
which might have become Greek psychae 'soul'.
XYA = sky/shine/cy.an/eau.cy.an(ocean) above the (grassy) canopy
eg. Kha.n, Tza.r, Sha.h, Ki.ng, Te.nger, Te.rangi, Zi.on, Thio.pes)

XYUA = sieve/sift/soft(rain, flour) beneath the (leafy) canopy
eg. cup, cuff, qufa, sofa?, c.ove.r

Such a red ocher dot would
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
have claimed a second life in the beyond for a worthy soul.
To the gatherer, ochre was life, as was red blood/bara/birth;
To the hunter, blood was death of prey.
So ochre was rebirth-eternal?

Greek psychae
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
also means butterfly;
butterfly-flutterby(Engl)= ramarama(Malay)=kupukupu(Malay: moth)=psychae(Greek)=mariposa(Spanish)=papillon(French)=papalotl(Aztec)

amazingly a butterfly is found among the drawings
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
in the Chauvet cave, while the large domino five with an additional dot
in elevated position in the Brunel chamber may be read as follows: PAS
PAS pas(French) step, ~ ped/foot, tleca(Aztec) step(s)...step.pe(s) vs. stop
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
for everywhere (in a plain), here, south and north of me, east and west
of me, in all five places, Greek pas pan 'all, every' pente penta- 'five',
and again CA for sky, together: may the bullman (depicted on a stalactite
in the rear chamber of the cave) be reborn by the goddess of the Summer
Triangle Deneb Vega Atair (Venus on the same stalactite) in the sky CA,
and may the bullman (a worthy supreme leader of the Lower Rhone Valley)
roam the sky in his next life as he roams (or roamed) the land in this life
- may he get everywhere PAS in the sky CA ...
Red ocher dots and hand impressions are also known from Indonesia, where
they are even older, some 60,000 year old, if memory serves.
36ka?

Do they have
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
the same meaning as the ones in European caves? imploring a second life
in the beyond for a worthy soul?
Ochre mined ~ 100ka southern Africa
Red lead - cinnabar dot in India forehead - reincarnate?

Always possible that interpretations are false, no real way to verify.
Franz Gnaedinger
2017-08-16 07:49:37 UTC
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Post by Daud Deden
36ka?
Ochre mined ~ 100ka southern Africa
Red lead - cinnabar dot in India forehead - reincarnate?
Always possible that interpretations are false, no real way to verify.
Yes, new datings give the age of the earliest drawings or paintings in the
Chauvet cave as 36,000 years, older than the previous 32,000 years.

South Africa in the Middle Stone Age was the avantgarde of civilization.
The people of the Pinnacle Point (125 000 BP) used a glue of two components
in fixing a flint blade to a wooden handle or shaft. For me the sensation
of the Blombos cave are the red ochre prisms with carved series of framed
and overlapping rhombs. My interpretation is that they are the abstract
emblem of the crane in the act of creating the world, space by unfolding
the wings, and time by flapping the wings. While the perforated shells of
snails might have been part of an abacus-like device for counting days.

Gael de Cuichen: Archaeology is not an exact science but a speculative one,
a science of imagination ... Note well: a _science_ of imagination.
Post by Daud Deden
Mbuti Pygmies see blowflies swarming the dead as angels taking the soul of the dead to heaven, perhaps source of zoroasterian vulture role.
See, the idea of butterflies and such taking the soul of worthy dead with
them into a heavenly beyond is widespread and therefore very ancient.
Daud Deden
2017-08-16 11:57:41 UTC
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Blowflies swarm, butterflies do so rarely, although they did at Apalura, at a river shallow beach under a sunlit opening in the rainforest near Tore's cave, per Duffy.

400ka zigzaged freshwater shell at Java.

Cranes & Pygmies battled per Homer.

My hometown Red Wing, (Shoe Co.) Minnesota was named for the significance of a dyed red crane wing in Dakota ritual, perhaps linked to fire. Original name: rhemnica

Blombos - Dutch: bloom, linked to plume, flow.er, tomb, womb, endumongolu(Mbuti: home interior)
Daud Deden
2017-08-16 13:09:03 UTC
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Gods & Ghosts

***@Yoruba: Voodoo

Zombie.voodoo = *Xyambviudiu
Xyam/shine-skin
embody/bounteous
doo/Tiw/Deus/Zeus

***@OldDutch: cord-twine-tie used to embellish-finish a bell beaker

Spooky/kabuki ~ pussy/booty

CA canvas/cannibis/skin of kayak-khudru(Tibet)-canoa(1st of rind/bark/skin but 1st coracle of broad-leaves on wicker basket).

Cannot rely too much on cave paintings w/o knowing if other perishable methods used (bark, vellum, charcoal), fossil preservation bias.

***@Mbuti:embody/punt/font
Daud Deden
2017-08-16 13:34:13 UTC
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Ochre was long preceded by red plant dye in rainforest, both Congo Pygmies (red bark) & Amazon Pirahã (red seed pod) use it for blood/aura.

Number-Qua.ntize =
Nama-Qua/Khoe(herding bushmen), (long after rainforest diaspora of H&G Pygmies where pro-portions of meat were most important).

Upright bipedal apes (gibbon, orangutan, human) have lunar menstrual period 28/29 days, but quadrupedal monkeys and knucklewalking apes(chimp, gorilla) do not.
Daud Deden
2017-08-16 14:09:03 UTC
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Nama.qua = name/num. quantity
BamBa.twa/kwa = OOA Pygmies
Aba.cu(a)s = has cash/cache of ostrich disc beads(Chinese holey coin) on lace/bark-string/tlaca(Aztec: bark, wick), given to ferry-rates/eupharates/pilots to cross big water in coracle/qufarigolu/cup.herakles, originally from !Kung San !hxaro/etched eggshell(bell/ball/oval(inga)/z.oevary/z.ifr/z(ph)ero) gift-exchange=
harga(Malay:charge)=
Tzuringa(Austl): zigzagged oyster shell exchanged for plaque to be ochre-painted ones' maternal clan totem's dreamtime (ancient) journey.
Quanto/kantong(Malay: pocket-cannister/canastros(Greek): cane basket/Container/Canada(Iroquois): container of people(village)= Khotan(Ainu)village=
Khotan-village in Tarim Basin on Silk Road)
Franz Gnaedinger
2017-08-17 06:49:27 UTC
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Post by Daud Deden
Blowflies swarm, butterflies do so rarely, although they did at Apalura, at a river shallow beach under a sunlit opening in the rainforest near Tore's cave, per Duffy.
400ka zigzaged freshwater shell at Java.
Cranes & Pygmies battled per Homer.
There is a mountain valley in Crete famous for millions of swarming
butterflies, and a place in America where monarchs gather by millions,
also swarming, coming from everywhere.

Is that freshwater shell at Java decorated by a human hand?

What cranes and pygmies have to do with Homer I don't understand.

I preferred if you would focus on a single cave which, you believe,
is explained by a modern name.

Here a joke for Yusuf Gürsey: 36,000 years ago the Chauvet cave was called
la grotte des cinq mille chauve-souris 'cave of the five thousand bat's'
which lingered on in the unconscious mind of the locals who chose monsieur
Chauvet as modern name giver, because of the similarity chauve- and Chauvet
Daud Deden
2017-08-17 22:29:12 UTC
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Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Daud Deden
Blowflies swarm, butterflies do so rarely, although they did at Apalura, at a river shallow beach under a sunlit opening in the rainforest near Tore's cave, per Duffy.
400ka zigzaged freshwater shell at Java.
Cranes & Pygmies battled per Homer.
There is a mountain valley in Crete famous for millions of swarming
butterflies, and a place in America where monarchs gather by millions,
also swarming, coming from everywhere.
Yes. Mexico, a forested mountain valley.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Is that freshwater shell at Java decorated by a human hand?
Claimed a Homo erectus "Java Man", although I'm wary of the early date claim. Zigzag etching is common much later in Africa, !hxaro ostrich eggshell canteens 60ka, Tsuringa oyster shell 40ka to recent historical contact.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
What cranes and pygmies have to do with Homer I don't understand.
See ref. http://www.pygmies.org/about/pygmy.php
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
I preferred if you would focus on a single cave which, you believe,
is explained by a modern name.
Yes, but it is early in the project, still much info. to gather.
Bhimbetke, Bimbache, Masjedbebe appear significant.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Here a joke for Yusuf Gürsey: 36,000 years ago the Chauvet cave was called
la grotte des cinq mille chauve-souris 'cave of the five thousand bat's'
which lingered on in the unconscious mind of the locals who chose monsieur
Chauvet as modern name giver, because of the similarity chauve- and Chauvet
Daud Deden
2017-08-17 23:01:24 UTC
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350ka megafauna bones in Karain Cave, Antalya, Turkey

"Archeologists have discovered the bones of a large 350,000-year-old animal during excavations at the Karain Cave in the southern Turkish province of Antalya. There are 500,000-year-old remnants here. Neanderthal bones of early humans have been unearthed in the cave."

Karain ~ Kara'ite = People of Crimea, "Kara'im'ea", part of Jewish Khazaria which also included the confluence of 4 rivers of Eden: DaNube/DNieper/DNiester/DoNetz and the Caucasus between Black Sea and Caspian.
KaraKahns ~ Turkish Khanites that 1st converted to Islam
Hebrew word for ancestor: Hor'im in Cana'an

Cana'an + Karakahn + Hor'im/Hori'te + Karain + Kara'im
Post by Daud Deden
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Daud Deden
Blowflies swarm, butterflies do so rarely, although they did at Apalura, at a river shallow beach under a sunlit opening in the rainforest near Tore's cave, per Duffy.
400ka zigzaged freshwater shell at Java.
Cranes & Pygmies battled per Homer.
There is a mountain valley in Crete famous for millions of swarming
butterflies, and a place in America where monarchs gather by millions,
also swarming, coming from everywhere.
Yes. Mexico, a forested mountain valley.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Is that freshwater shell at Java decorated by a human hand?
Claimed a Homo erectus "Java Man", although I'm wary of the early date claim. Zigzag etching is common much later in Africa, !hxaro ostrich eggshell canteens 60ka, Tsuringa oyster shell 40ka to recent historical contact.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
What cranes and pygmies have to do with Homer I don't understand.
See ref. http://www.pygmies.org/about/pygmy.php
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
I preferred if you would focus on a single cave which, you believe,
is explained by a modern name.
Yes, but it is early in the project, still much info. to gather.
Bhimbetke, Bimbache, Masjedbebe appear significant.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Here a joke for Yusuf Gürsey: 36,000 years ago the Chauvet cave was called
la grotte des cinq mille chauve-souris 'cave of the five thousand bat's'
which lingered on in the unconscious mind of the locals who chose monsieur
Chauvet as modern name giver, because of the similarity chauve- and Chauvet
Daud Deden
2017-08-17 23:10:24 UTC
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http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/rock-art-found-namib-desert-reveals-ancient-initiation-rituals-led-by-shamans-1632438

("Shaman" was almost certainly an older woman IMO)
Rock art found in Namib Desert reveals ancient initiation rituals led by shamans
The image of the female kudu would have accompanied young girls to womanhood.
Namib rockshelter initiation site - unnamed
Post by Daud Deden
350ka megafauna bones in Karain Cave, Antalya, Turkey
"Archeologists have discovered the bones of a large 350,000-year-old animal during excavations at the Karain Cave in the southern Turkish province of Antalya. There are 500,000-year-old remnants here. Neanderthal bones of early humans have been unearthed in the cave."
Karain ~ Kara'ite = People of Crimea, "Kara'im'ea", part of Jewish Khazaria which also included the confluence of 4 rivers of Eden: DaNube/DNieper/DNiester/DoNetz and the Caucasus between Black Sea and Caspian.
KaraKahns ~ Turkish Khanites that 1st converted to Islam
Hebrew word for ancestor: Hor'im in Cana'an
Cana'an + Karakahn + Hor'im/Hori'te + Karain + Kara'im
Post by Daud Deden
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Daud Deden
Blowflies swarm, butterflies do so rarely, although they did at Apalura, at a river shallow beach under a sunlit opening in the rainforest near Tore's cave, per Duffy.
400ka zigzaged freshwater shell at Java.
Cranes & Pygmies battled per Homer.
There is a mountain valley in Crete famous for millions of swarming
butterflies, and a place in America where monarchs gather by millions,
also swarming, coming from everywhere.
Yes. Mexico, a forested mountain valley.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Is that freshwater shell at Java decorated by a human hand?
Claimed a Homo erectus "Java Man", although I'm wary of the early date claim. Zigzag etching is common much later in Africa, !hxaro ostrich eggshell canteens 60ka, Tsuringa oyster shell 40ka to recent historical contact.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
What cranes and pygmies have to do with Homer I don't understand.
See ref. http://www.pygmies.org/about/pygmy.php
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
I preferred if you would focus on a single cave which, you believe,
is explained by a modern name.
Yes, but it is early in the project, still much info. to gather.
Bhimbetke, Bimbache, Masjedbebe appear significant.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Here a joke for Yusuf Gürsey: 36,000 years ago the Chauvet cave was called
la grotte des cinq mille chauve-souris 'cave of the five thousand bat's'
which lingered on in the unconscious mind of the locals who chose monsieur
Chauvet as modern name giver, because of the similarity chauve- and Chauvet
Yusuf B Gursey
2017-08-18 23:38:48 UTC
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Qaraim is a Hebrew word for "readers" describing the sect of non Talmudic Judaism to which the group adheres
Daud Deden
2017-08-19 18:08:15 UTC
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Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Qaraim is a Hebrew word for "readers" describing the sect of non Talmudic Judaism to which the group adheres
That is confusing to me. The Talmud are writings of rabbi conversations/interpretations on the Tanakh? Why were those who did not follow the Talmud called "readers"? Was it because they only read the Tanakh/Torah?

Might Qaraim originally meant those who read the Tanakh but did not subscribe to further priestly/rabbinical interpretations? In a sense, home-schooled?

I thought that black in Turkish was "kara".

No link between kara'ite(Jewish) and karakhan(Muslim)?

https://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogspot.com/2017/08/karakhanid-tomb-unearthed-in-kyrgyzstan.html#PHLZ8YtvZLguA6Bu.99
Franz Gnaedinger
2017-08-19 07:54:43 UTC
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Post by Daud Deden
Yes, but it is early in the project, still much info. to gather.
Bhimbetke, Bimbache, Masjedbebe appear significant.
Tell us when you can say more.

The only possible coherence between the meaning of a cave and its modern
name I found is Lascaux.

Marie E.P. König identified the horse as sun horse, the bull as moon bull,
and the opposing ibices in the niche at the rear end of the axial gallery
as midwinter emblem (in other parts of the world also antithetic mountain
goats). We can then see the niche as midwinter, the axial gallery as year,
and the glorious rotunda as midsummer - the red mare rising above the ledge
as midsummer sun rising above the horizon, and the proud whilte bull by
her side as a full moon occurring at the same time (ideal start of an
eight-year period in the lunisolar calendar of Lascaux).

The rotunda is then the sky within a hill or mountain (hills were often
called mountains). Magdalenian offers LAS for mountain and CA for sky.
LAS CA Lascaux, hill or mountain of the sky within ??
Daud Deden
2017-08-19 18:23:45 UTC
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Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Daud Deden
Yes, but it is early in the project, still much info. to gather.
Bhimbetke, Bimbache, Masjedbebe appear significant.
Tell us when you can say more.
The only possible coherence between the meaning of a cave and its modern
name I found is Lascaux.
Marie E.P. König identified the horse as sun horse, the bull as moon bull,
and the opposing ibices in the niche at the rear end of the axial gallery
as midwinter emblem (in other parts of the world also antithetic mountain
goats). We can then see the niche as midwinter, the axial gallery as year,
and the glorious rotunda as midsummer - the red mare rising above the ledge
as midsummer sun rising above the horizon, and the proud whilte bull by
her side as a full moon occurring at the same time (ideal start of an
eight-year period in the lunisolar calendar of Lascaux).
The rotunda is then the sky within a hill or mountain (hills were often
called mountains). Magdalenian offers LAS for mountain and CA for sky.
LAS CA Lascaux, hill or mountain of the sky within ??
***@Magdalenian: mountain/hill
***@Tigrinha/Amarigh: mountain/hill
***@Mbuti: dome hut, breast, mound
***@Africaans: steep-sided hillock
***@Uighur: mountain/hill
***@Hebrew: breath(belly full of air)
***@Hebrew: swell (bell, belly)

Originally human ancestors avoided rainforest caves (cf. Pygmies), then used wind-blocking rockshelters in temperate semi-arid zones while their shelters evolved for colder/hotter/windier climes(thick thatch, skins, canvas, bark).

The bull horns = aka uru@!Xam: month of the crescent moon when horns point up, linked to aquarius (water bearing month = canteen eggshell in netbag) & aquarium

***@Chinese: mare, mother

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