Discussion:
etym. of Hetgeen
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Hen Hanna
2017-04-14 19:22:15 UTC
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I was browsing this page
http://rudhar.com/lingtics/lingtics.htm
and opened the page on Hetgeen
thinking
1. it's in English, and
2. it's about Hetgreen.


Hetgeen is (I think) the relative pronoun "which" in Du.

Het is THE, and
Geen is "far" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/geen

So the puzzle is: does it make sense that
the + far ---> the relative pronoun "which" ?

HH
Hen Hanna
2017-04-14 19:45:13 UTC
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Post by Hen Hanna
Hetgeen is (I think) the relative pronoun "which" in Du.
Het is THE, and
Geen is "far" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/geen
So the puzzle is: does it make sense that
the + far ---> the relative pronoun "which" ?
HH
I can't find help or hints from German.

deren, dessen, ... looks like they could help me.


Die Frau, deren Handy ich benutzt habe.

The woman whose cell phone I used.


Das sind die Männer, mit denen ich Schach gespielt habe.

Those are the men with whom I played chess.
wugi
2017-04-14 20:18:50 UTC
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Post by Hen Hanna
Post by Hen Hanna
Hetgeen is (I think) the relative pronoun "which" in Du.
Degene, hetgeen.
Post by Hen Hanna
Post by Hen Hanna
Het is THE, and
Geen is "far" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/geen
So the puzzle is: does it make sense that
the + far ---> the relative pronoun "which" ?
It's not "far", it's a pointer to (litt.) "the one there", "that one there".
~ ginder: yonder; ~ the (one) yonder
~ L. is,ea,id; G. er: he.

The other etymology, for 'geen' (< "engeen, negeen") = not any, no, none:
~ no one,
to be compared I'm sure with Skandinavian 'ingen'.
Post by Hen Hanna
I can't find help or hints from German.
Derjenige, diejenige, dasjenige.
--
guido
http://www.wugi.be
Hen Hanna
2017-04-15 14:14:43 UTC
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Post by wugi
Post by Hen Hanna
Post by Hen Hanna
Hetgeen is (I think) the relative pronoun "which" in Du.
Degene, hetgeen.
Post by Hen Hanna
Post by Hen Hanna
Het is THE, and
Geen is "far" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/geen
So the puzzle is: does it make sense that
the + far ---> the relative pronoun "which" ?
It's not "far", it's a pointer to (litt.) "the one there", "that one there".
What's (litt.) ?
Post by wugi
~ ginder: yonder; ~ the (one) yonder
~ L. is,ea,id; G. er: he.
~ no one,
to be compared I'm sure with Skandinavian 'ingen'.
Post by Hen Hanna
I can't find help or hints from German.
Derjenige, diejenige, dasjenige.
--
guido
http://www.wugi.be
Post by Hen Hanna
Geen is "far" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/geen
"naddy" a dit> See what it says there? "Compare German _jener_."

Yes. Thank you! Je ner l'ai pascht ge[seh]en!


Thank you for the help.
Post by wugi
~ ginder: yonder
i wonder if there's
a Du. [G] - Eng/Ger [Y] corresponce
like the Fr. [P] - Eng/Ger [F] corresponce

HH
wugi
2017-04-15 15:15:13 UTC
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Post by Hen Hanna
Post by wugi
It's not "far", it's a pointer to (litt.) "the one there", "that one there".
What's (litt.) ?
Sorry I meant "literally": gene xxx = that xxx there.
Post by Hen Hanna
Post by wugi
--
guido
http://www.wugi.be
~ ginder: yonder
i wonder if there's
a Du. [G] - Eng/Ger [Y] corresponce
like the Fr. [P] - Eng/Ger [F] corresponce
Rather Du/Ger "g" vs Eng "y", albeit not in our current case.
Perhaps partly and diversely fragmented, depending on origin ("native",
(re)borrowed, ...), era, phonetic surroundings, evolution.

A little sample list of different cases (sometimes words with variant
meaning):
English Dutch German
*** *** ***

yeast gist (gären)
yesterday gisteren gestern
yellow geel gelb
yell gillen (gellend)
yarn garen Garn
yearn gaarne gerne
yawn geeuwen gähnen
yield (ver)gelden (ver)gelten

yes ja ja
year jaar Jahr
you jij/jou-gij/u (---)
young jong jung
youth jeugd Jugend

yonder ginder (---)
yon gene/geen jener
(---) geen kein

yet iets etwas(?)
either ieder jeder
(---) iemand jemand

give geven geben
gilt gulden/geld Gelt
gold goud Gold
girdle gordel Gürtel

jubilate jubelen/juichen jubeln/jauchzen
jewel juweel Juwel
just juist just
--
guido
http://www.wugi.be
Christian Weisgerber
2017-04-15 19:38:44 UTC
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Post by wugi
Post by Hen Hanna
i wonder if there's
a Du. [G] - Eng/Ger [Y] corresponce
like the Fr. [P] - Eng/Ger [F] corresponce
Rather Du/Ger "g" vs Eng "y", albeit not in our current case.
Perhaps partly and diversely fragmented, depending on origin ("native",
(re)borrowed, ...), era, phonetic surroundings, evolution.
Basic rule for initial g- before front vowels in English:

* If it's pronounced /g/, the word is loaned from or influenced by
Old Norse.
* If it's pronounced /dʒ/, the word is from Old French (or something
whose pronunciation came by way of Old French, like Latin).
* Old English g in that position turned into /j/ and is spelled <y>.

The two <gill> words (fish organ, liquid measure) nicely illustrate
the /g/ vs. /dʒ/ rule.


There also appears to have been some sort of shift of g in the
syllable coda, where it turned into /j/ after front vowels and /w/
after back vowels, mirroring the pronunciation of final <g> in
modern Danish.
day < dæg cf. German Tag
saw < sagu cf. German Säge
I don't know the details though. Obviously some instances of -g
survived. Geminates, Old Norse, ...?
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber ***@mips.inka.de
Christian Weisgerber
2017-04-15 21:11:21 UTC
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Post by wugi
English Dutch German
*** *** ***
yeast gist (gären)
yesterday gisteren gestern
yellow geel gelb
yell gillen (gellend)
yarn garen Garn
yearn gaarne gerne
yawn geeuwen gähnen
yield (ver)gelden (ver)gelten
West Germanic initial g-
Post by wugi
yes ja ja
year jaar Jahr
you jij/jou-gij/u (---)
young jong jung
youth jeugd Jugend
West Germanic initial j-

English ye/you, which does not belong in this section, should be
cognate with German ihr/euch.

Old English Old High German Modern German
N gē ir ihr
A ēowic iuwih euch
D ēow iu euch
G ēower iuwēr euer

Looks like the English objective form "you" (which also took over
the subject later, cf. KJV "ye") continues the dative, the same way
"her", "him", "them", and "whom" do.
Post by wugi
yet iets etwas(?)
jetzt
Post by wugi
either ieder jeder
(---) iemand jemand
jubilate jubelen/juichen jubeln/jauchzen
jewel juweel Juwel
just juist just
Those are from Latin/French.
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber ***@mips.inka.de
wugi
2017-04-16 16:01:59 UTC
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Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by wugi
English Dutch German
*** *** ***
yes ja ja
year jaar Jahr
you jij/jou-gij/u (---)
young jong jung
youth jeugd Jugend
West Germanic initial j-
English ye/you, which does not belong in this section, should be
cognate with German ihr/euch.
Old English Old High German Modern German
N gē ir ihr
A ēowic iuwih euch
D ēow iu euch
G ēower iuwēr euer
Looks like the English objective form "you" (which also took over
the subject later, cf. KJV "ye") continues the dative, the same way
"her", "him", "them", and "whom" do.
Also in Dutch:
jij/je < gij/ge ("ghi"), whereas
jou/u < "iu", like G. euch and E. you
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by wugi
yet iets etwas(?)
jetzt
Further etymo? (not given in my sources). And about etwas?
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by wugi
jubilate jubelen/juichen jubeln/jauchzen
jewel juweel Juwel
just juist just
Those are from Latin/French.
Not juichen/jauchzen, which carry the same IE onomatopeic "ju" syllable.
--
guido wugi
Christian Weisgerber
2017-04-16 17:14:34 UTC
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Post by wugi
Post by wugi
yet iets etwas(?)
jetzt
Further etymo? (not given in my sources).
Actually, judging from Kluge these aren't cognates.
"jetzt" < MHG. "jeze", earlier "je zuo"
A compound of "je" and "zu", which existed in several variants, one of
them giving "jetz", which grew a -t in Early Modern German.

"zu" is an adverb/preposition, cognate with English "to".
"je" is a particle meaning "ever, always", and cognate with
Old English "ā", archaic English "aye". Compare
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/yet#Etymology_2
Post by wugi
And about etwas?
Another compound, "wo" (the pronoun stem) and the first component
of "etlich"... from OHG "eddes-" meaning "any", and possibly related
to "oder".
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber ***@mips.inka.de
wugi
2017-04-17 11:02:20 UTC
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Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by wugi
Post by wugi
yet iets etwas(?)
jetzt
Further etymo? (not given in my sources).
Actually, judging from Kluge these aren't cognates.
You mean yet and etwas?
So it ought to be
E. NL. D.
yet ooit* jetzt? (*surprised to find that here)
Post by Christian Weisgerber
"jetzt" < MHG. "jeze", earlier "je zuo"
A compound of "je" and "zu", which existed in several variants, one of
them giving "jetz", which grew a -t in Early Modern German.
"zu" is an adverb/preposition, cognate with English "to".
"je" is a particle meaning "ever, always", and cognate with
Old English "ā", archaic English "aye". Compare
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/yet#Etymology_2
Post by wugi
And about etwas?
Another compound, "wo" (the pronoun stem) and the first component
of "etlich"... from OHG "eddes-" meaning "any", and possibly related
to "oder".
We have "etmaal" (recurrent 24hs' day) and "etgras", "etgroen"
(aftermath, after-grass = 2nd growth). The et- particle linked with
Latin "et, etiam".

And "ettelijke" < MHG ~ "etlich", of which one source says "et- maybe
related to "et[groen]", another says ~ Gothic word for "maybe" (~ like
your "oder"). The former seems reasonable to me.

Thanks.

As for "etwas", NL. "iets/wat", we have a Flemish dial. "entwat".
We have also an obsolete "ten onzent", in our place.
And still use "van mijnentwege", Ger. "meinetwegen":
I've wondered why German, with its ubiquitous flection-n, would drop
this -n- precisely here. The "-et" suffix doesn't seem to correspond to
any Germanic case? Whereas the -t- could be euphonic in all these
'cases'?-o)
--
guido wugi
Christian Weisgerber
2017-04-17 15:42:14 UTC
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Post by wugi
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by wugi
Post by wugi
yet iets etwas(?)
jetzt
Further etymo? (not given in my sources).
Actually, judging from Kluge these aren't cognates.
You mean yet and etwas?
I meant that "yet" and "jetzt" aren't cognates.
"Etwas" doesn't belong there at all.
Post by wugi
As for "etwas", NL. "iets/wat", we have a Flemish dial. "entwat".
We have also an obsolete "ten onzent", in our place.
I've wondered why German, with its ubiquitous flection-n, would drop
this -n- precisely here. The "-et" suffix doesn't seem to correspond to
any Germanic case? Whereas the -t- could be euphonic in all these
'cases'?-o)
Duden Grammar says those derive from old genitive forms with a
"Fugen-t", so possibly euphonic.

The modern genitive has -er (meiner, deiner, etc.), but there are
also obsolete bare forms: Vergiss mein nicht!
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber ***@mips.inka.de
Christian Weisgerber
2017-04-14 21:37:42 UTC
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Post by Hen Hanna
Post by Hen Hanna
Hetgeen is (I think) the relative pronoun "which" in Du.
Het is THE, and
Geen is "far" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/geen
See what it says there? "Compare German _jener_."
Post by Hen Hanna
Post by Hen Hanna
So the puzzle is: does it make sense that
the + far ---> the relative pronoun "which" ?
HH
I can't find help or hints from German.
dasjenige
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber ***@mips.inka.de
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