Arabic loans in Swahili (and Hebrew cognates)

The seem to be very similar. Given that i do not know hebrew/arabic
prounciation, only swahili.

Well done!

i***@gmail.com

2018-03-07 16:37:56 UTC

The Swahili languages contains a large number of Arabic loan
words. For better remembering these, I have tried to find Hebrew
cognates (I never learnt any Arabic which, of course, would have been
more natural to look for cognates). Given the regular replacements of
sounds that occur between Arabic and Hebrew, there a number of more or
less obvious cognates. I am writing the Hebrew, too, in Swahili
spelling, that is more or less the consonants as in English (but with
a distinction dh vs. th and with additional gh and kh) and the vowels
abudu (worship) - avad (serve)
adhuhuri(noon) - tsohorayim
arobaini (fourty) - arbaim
baraka (blessing) - brakha
damu (blood) - dam
elfu (thousand) - elef
fedha (money) - paz (pure gold)
hamsini (fifty) - khamishim
hesabu (count) - safar
ishirini (twenty) - esrim
kanisa (church) - knesia
karibu (near) - karov
kitabu (book) - katav (write)
la (no) - lo
malaika (angel) - malakh
mamlaka (authority) - mamlakha (kingdom)
mia (hundred) - mea
nafsi (soul) - nefesh
radhi (content) - merutse
rafiki (friend) - hitrapek (cuddle)
roho (spirit) - ruakh
saba (seven) - sheva
sabini (seventy) - shivim
salamu (greeting) - shalom (peace)
soko (market) - shuk
thelathani (thirty) - shloshim
themanini (eighty) - shmonim
tisa (nine) - tesha
tisini (ninety) - tishim
I would expect the Arabic words to be very similar to the Swahili
words in the left column, with the possible exception of additional
final vowels in the Swahili in order that they fit into the Swahili
phonology which has only open syllables. Is this correct?
For a number of other words, the cognates appear to be a little more
far-fetched, either by meaning or by not so obvious mapping of
sounds. For these, besides the same question as for the first group,
I'd like to know whether I have met false friends (similar words in
askari (soldier) - sakhar (payment)
faida (profit) - pada (accept money)
ghali (expensive) - ili (elevated)
lugha (language) - laaz (foreign language)
maradhi (illness) - raze (meager)
maskini (poor) - mishken (pawn)
sahau (forget) - shakhakh
sita (six) - shesh
sitini (sixty) - shishim
thumini (esteem) - shum (estimate)
A third group of Swahili words look "somewhat Arabic" to me but I
failed to find Hebrew cognates. Which of them are
- not Arabic
- Arabic with no Hebrew cognate
- Arabic with a Hebrew cognate I missed?
alasiri (afternoon)
alfajiri (early dawn)
biashara (commerce)
dharau (despise)
fikiri (consider)
furaha (joy)
ghafula (suddenly)
hadithi (story)
huruma (grace)
huzuni (grief)
jaribu (try)
jibu (answer)
laini (smooth)
nafasi (opportunity)
rahisi (easy)
ruhusu (allow)
safari (journey)
sahihi (correct)
sheria (law)
tajiri (rich)
tumaini (rely)
I am aware that my questions have no scientific relevance but I hope
some participants of this group are appreciative of my amateur's
interest in similarities and dissimilarities of languages.
Helmut Richter

How about the word sadakta, in Hebrew tsadakta

Helmut Richter

2018-03-07 19:21:56 UTC

Meanwhile (i.e. since 2002, the time of my contribution here which you
quoted), I have found many of the Arabic roots, but only few Hebrew

hadithi (story)

he: khadasha (news)

jibu (answer)

hegiv (root גוב) (react)

sahihi (correct)

tsakh (root צחח) (bright, shining)

sheria (law)

sar (prince, ruler)

Post by i***@gmail.com
How about the word sadakta, in Hebrew tsadakta

I haven't found that in either Hebrew nor Swahili dictionary, but the
root צדק certainly exists in Hebrew, Arab, and Swahili, e.g. Swahili
sadiki (believe).

Once one has found the Arab root, it is nearly always unambiguous what
the Hebrew or the Swahili form would look like if it exists – but not
vice versa. I made myself a list
http://hr.userweb.mwn.de/tmp/sw-ar-he.html

--
Helmut Richter

Mikal 606

2018-03-07 20:11:25 UTC

Meanwhile (i.e. since 2002, the time of my contribution here which you
quoted), I have found many of the Arabic roots, but only few Hebrew

hadithi (story)

he: khadasha (news)

jibu (answer)

hegiv (root גוב) (react)

sahihi (correct)

tsakh (root צחח) (bright, shining)

sheria (law)

sar (prince, ruler)

Post by i***@gmail.com
How about the word sadakta, in Hebrew tsadakta

I haven't found that in either Hebrew nor Swahili dictionary, but the
root צדק certainly exists in Hebrew, Arab, and Swahili, e.g. Swahili
sadiki (believe).
Once one has found the Arab root, it is nearly always unambiguous what
the Hebrew or the Swahili form would look like if it exists – but not
vice versa. I made myself a list
http://hr.userweb.mwn.de/tmp/sw-ar-he.html
--
Helmut Richter

They had fun with this one in Swahili

The Bingwa Bunch: Saint Louis Zoo Names Eight Cheetah Cubs
Here's the story of a lovely cheetah...

https://patch.com/missouri/stlouis/bingwa-bunch-saint-louis-zoo-names-eight-cheetah-cubs

Helmut Richter

2018-03-07 22:19:27 UTC

Post by Mikal 606
They had fun with this one in Swahili
The Bingwa Bunch: Saint Louis Zoo Names Eight Cheetah Cubs
Here's the story of a lovely cheetah...
https://patch.com/missouri/stlouis/bingwa-bunch-saint-louis-zoo-names-eight-cheetah-cubs

Well the zoo people should use the opportunity to learn counting and
calculating:

| The five girls and four boys were named for the numbers one through
| eight in Swahili.

In Swahili, five girls and four boys are together nine. And three boys
are three even if they sum up to ten.

--
Helmut Richter

Yusuf B Gursey

2018-03-12 17:10:06 UTC

Meanwhile (i.e. since 2002, the time of my contribution here which you
quoted), I have found many of the Arabic roots, but only few Hebrew

hadithi (story)

he: khadasha (news)

jibu (answer)

hegiv (root גוב) (react)

sahihi (correct)

tsakh (root צחח) (bright, shining)

sheria (law)

sar (prince, ruler)

Not cognate.

Post by i***@gmail.com
How about the word sadakta, in Hebrew tsadakta

I haven't found that in either Hebrew nor Swahili dictionary, but the
root צדק certainly exists in Hebrew, Arab, and Swahili, e.g. Swahili
sadiki (believe).
Once one has found the Arab root, it is nearly always unambiguous what
the Hebrew or the Swahili form would look like if it exists – but not
vice versa. I made myself a list
http://hr.userweb.mwn.de/tmp/sw-ar-he.html
--
Helmut Richter

Helmut Richter

2018-03-14 12:53:53 UTC

Post by Helmut Richter
sar (prince, ruler)

Not cognate.

I took this one for granted because He. שׂ and Ar. ش match each other
in the etymology of common roots, and both are not overly frequent in
their languages. Bad luck.

Now, Klein's dictionary mentions the root שׂרר (rule, lay foundation,
be strong, also: navel string) which is not the same as sheria but
could have been semantically connected.

Where does sheria come from?

--
Helmut Richter

Helmut Richter

2018-03-14 13:16:01 UTC

Post by Helmut Richter
sar (prince, ruler)

Not cognate.

I took this one for granted because He. שׂ and Ar. ش match each other
in the etymology of common roots, and both are not overly frequent in
their languages. Bad luck.
Now, Klein's dictionary mentions the root שׂרר (rule, lay foundation,
be strong, also: navel string) which is not the same as sheria but
could have been semantically connected.
Where does sheria come from?

Found it: שׂרע (stretch out, expand)

Trivial after I looked up the Arabic¹) word in Arabic script, but the
semantic connection is not obvious either.

The disctinction of Arab vs. Arabic seems to be even more difficult
than Scotch vs. Scottish.

--
Helmut Richter

Peter T. Daniels

2018-03-14 13:29:23 UTC

Post by Helmut Richter
The disctinction of Arab vs. Arabic seems to be even more difficult
than Scotch vs. Scottish.

? Arabic is the name of a language. Arab is the designation or description
of persons. Arabian is the adjective for the region or the country.

Helmut Richter

2018-03-14 13:56:56 UTC

Post by Helmut Richter
The disctinction of Arab vs. Arabic seems to be even more difficult
than Scotch vs. Scottish.

? Arabic is the name of a language. Arab is the designation or description
of persons. Arabian is the adjective for the region or the country.

So the United Arab Emirates is a Union of Emirates of Arabs and not a
Union of Arabian Emirates?

--
Helmut Richter

Peter T. Daniels

2018-03-14 14:03:47 UTC

Post by Helmut Richter
The disctinction of Arab vs. Arabic seems to be even more difficult
than Scotch vs. Scottish.

? Arabic is the name of a language. Arab is the designation or description
of persons. Arabian is the adjective for the region or the country.

So the United Arab Emirates is a Union of Emirates of Arabs and not a
Union of Arabian Emirates?

We just call it the UAE or The Emirates.

There are emirates in Arabia that aren't part of the UAE. Those are probably
Arabian emirates.

Yusuf B Gursey

2018-03-15 19:40:36 UTC

Qatar Bahrain (and Kuwait) did not join the UAE. Bahrain later declared itself a kingdom.

António Marques

2018-03-15 15:08:46 UTC

Post by Helmut Richter
The disctinction of Arab vs. Arabic seems to be even more difficult
than Scotch vs. Scottish.

? Arabic is the name of a language. Arab is the designation or description
of persons. Arabian is the adjective for the region or the country.

So the United Arab Emirates is a Union of Emirates of Arabs and not a
Union of Arabian Emirates?

As the English name goes, I’ve always taken it to be an ethnic rather than
geographical label, so yes. Maybe the Arabic is different.

It wouldn’t be unheard of. For instance, the filioque issue stems mostly
from the Latin and Greek verbs having slightly different meanings,
prompting the insertion of a second complement to the Latin one to avoid
one problem, unexpectingly opening the door to a much bigger one.

Now, what about arab(ic) cuisine?

DKleinecke

2018-03-15 19:04:01 UTC

Post by AntÃ³nio Marques
Now, what about arab(ic) cuisine?

Too many sheep's eyeballs.

Yusuf B Gursey

2018-03-15 19:28:09 UTC

Arab is an ethnic group Arabic a language Arabian from a region. Not all Arabs are from Arabia (most are not) and not all Arabians are Arabs (there is the native Mehric community speeking a different Semitic language group and South Asian immigrants).

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2018-03-16 09:08:02 UTC

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Arab is an ethnic group Arabic a language Arabian from a region. Not
all Arabs are from Arabia (most are not) and not all Arabians are Arabs
(there is the native Mehric

Is that spelt right? When I search for it Google thinks I mean "metric".

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
community speeking a different Semitic language group and South Asian
immigrants).

--
athel

Yusuf B Gursey

2018-03-16 11:11:18 UTC

Mehri and related languages. Moren commonly known as Modern South Arabian

Peter T. Daniels

2018-03-16 16:04:37 UTC

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Arab is an ethnic group Arabic a language Arabian from a region. Not
all Arabs are from Arabia (most are not) and not all Arabians are Arabs
(there is the native Mehric

Is that spelt right? When I search for it Google thinks I mean "metric".

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
community speeking a different Semitic language group and South Asian
immigrants).

"Mehric" may have been Yusuf's invention. Naming a language family for one of
its members is frowned upon.

Mahri, Soqotri, Jibbali, Harsusi (the first modern publication on them was
called "Four Strange Tongues of Southern Arabia").

Yusuf B Gursey

2018-03-19 19:04:30 UTC

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Arab is an ethnic group Arabic a language Arabian from a region. Not
all Arabs are from Arabia (most are not) and not all Arabians are Arabs
(there is the native Mehric

Is that spelt right? When I search for it Google thinks I mean "metric".

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
community speeking a different Semitic language group and South Asian
immigrants).

"Mehric" may have been Yusuf's invention. Naming a language family for one of
its members is frowned upon.

No. I had read it somewhere.

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Mahri, Soqotri, Jibbali, Harsusi (the first modern publication on them was
called "Four Strange Tongues of Southern Arabia").

Yusuf B Gursey

2018-03-15 19:33:36 UTC

United Arab Emirates. Btw no distinction between Arab and Arabian in Arabic. No common word for Arabia either. Arabic Bibles use al-3arabiyyah العربية.

Yusuf B Gursey

2018-03-15 19:37:57 UTC

al-šarī3ah from begin commence lay afoundation . Also go down to watering hole and hence another name for the river Jordan

Daud Deden

2018-03-19 23:24:48 UTC

al-šarī3ah from begin commence lay a foundation . Also go down to watering hole and hence another name for the river Jordan

---

Yusuf, doesn't al-qaeda mean 'the foundation'? They don't seem closely related.

Perhaps it earlier meant 'down into the well', which was often stone-bound, analogous to a campfire ring of stones for cooking. If so, Qaeda would link to coil.

(Carlos L. thought al-qaeda meant 'base camp', and related it to firewood & smoke.)

i***@gmail.com

2018-03-14 13:28:06 UTC

Meanwhile (i.e. since 2002, the time of my contribution here which you
quoted), I have found many of the Arabic roots, but only few Hebrew

hadithi (story)

he: khadasha (news)

jibu (answer)

hegiv (root גוב) (react)

sahihi (correct)

tsakh (root צחח) (bright, shining)

sheria (law)

sar (prince, ruler)

Post by i***@gmail.com
How about the word sadakta, in Hebrew tsadakta

I haven't found that in either Hebrew nor Swahili dictionary, but the
root צדק certainly exists in Hebrew, Arab, and Swahili, e.g. Swahili
sadiki (believe).
Once one has found the Arab root, it is nearly always unambiguous what
the Hebrew or the Swahili form would look like if it exists – but not
vice versa. I made myself a list
http://hr.userweb.mwn.de/tmp/sw-ar-he.html
--
Helmut Richter

Here it is in the Swahili
https://sw.oxforddictionaries.com/ufafanuzi/sadakta!
and yes the hebrew is tsadakta

Helmut Richter

2018-03-14 14:23:37 UTC

Post by i***@gmail.com
How about the word sadakta, in Hebrew tsadakta

I haven't found that in either Hebrew nor Swahili dictionary, but the
root צדק certainly exists in Hebrew, Arab, and Swahili, e.g. Swahili
sadiki (believe).

Here it is in the Swahili
https://sw.oxforddictionaries.com/ufafanuzi/sadakta!
and yes the hebrew is tsadakta

I assume that is the 2nd person past tense of tsadaq with the meaning
"you have been right", and for Swahili I guess it has been formed from
the Arabic equivalent. Is it slang in either language?

(With the same letters, my Hebrew dictionary offers only "tsadeqet" for a
pious woman.)

A similar form with a final -t for a 2nd person is Swahili "ahsante"
(mostly written "asante") from the root خصن (known from the name
Hassan) meaning "you have been good [to me?]". The Hebrew root would
be חצן exists, but that one is cognate to a different Arabic root.

--
Helmut Richter

Yusuf B Gursey

2018-03-16 11:20:11 UTC

Hasan حسن "good, beautiful"is ħasan also well known name. ħiSn حصن is "fortress".

Daud Deden

2018-03-08 00:02:50 UTC

This is Hashav, think, reckon

lugha (language) - laaz (foreign language)

I doubt the Arabic and Hebrew words are related! (Hebrew /z/ can't
correspond to Arabic III-weak [lamed-he]).

hadithi (story)

The Hadith are the sayings of Muhammad

huruma (grace)

Cf. Hariim 'forbidden, blessed'

sheria (law)

shari`a is Muslim law
--

---

haram etc. ~ ***@Sumerian: forsake

t***@gmail.com

2019-10-19 16:43:58 UTC

Hi, this is may be a very late contribution... even so, I believe I have an interesting observation for you that you will find interesting.

Have you considered that Swahili may have older roots than two and hence be more likely the word donor to both Hebrew and Arabic?

I say this because both cultures have significant influence of Ancient Egyptian words which bore great influence to both these cultures.

http://www.kaa-umati.co.uk/

Peter T. Daniels

2019-10-19 21:27:36 UTC

Post by t***@gmail.com
Hi, this is may be a very late contribution... even so, I believe I have an interesting observation for you that you will find interesting.
Have you considered that Swahili may have older roots than two and hence be more likely the word donor to both Hebrew and Arabic?

Do you know the history of Swahili? When did it enter East Africa from
the Bantu homeland farther to the west? How could it have encountered
Arabic, let alone Hebrew?

Post by t***@gmail.com
I say this because both cultures have significant influence of Ancient Egyptian words which bore great influence to both these cultures.
http://www.kaa-umati.co.uk/

The "cultures" of Kenya may conceivably somehow have been influenced by
Egypt, though how, geographically, that could have been possible is a
major problem for you. Anything "Egyptian" would have been funneled
through Nubian or (if it was later) even Axumite culture.

Tommy Mogaka

2019-10-20 14:12:09 UTC

Thanks for your comments... Look at the following Bantu Words, from my tribe and a few others including Swahili and let me know if they are simply happenstance:

I believe true science is a multidisciplinary in it's approach.... Linguistics is a secret weapon in a scientist's tool-box of unearthing truth but still it should not be taken alone but alongside other disciplines like archaeology, biology, genetics etc.

The above said, even having considered all the disciplines of science, one would still fall short if s/he did not consider the other two facets that are the expression of human existence i.e. art expressed as culture and religion expressed as faith.

Pharaoh Khufu - While conventional archaeology doesn't explain his name, perhaps Linguistics can chip in here. Khufu happens to be the first "true" pharaoh i.e. he was the first to fully declare himself "a man god". Could this be the origins of the swahili word MTUKHUFU?

busu - (Swahili) - to kiss
busu - (Khemet) - to kiss
beberu - (Swahili) - strong man, , was the term used to reffere to the colonialists
bebu - (Khemet) - strong man
bariki - (Swahili) - to bless
bareka - (Khemet) - to bless
paRa - (Khemet) - the Sun
bara - (Gusii) - the sun to shine
paa - (Khemet) - to fly
paa - (Swahilit) - to fly
m'tchar - (Khemet) - to obey
m'cha - (Swahili) - to obey
pesi - (Khemet) - tax
pesa - (Swahili) - money
pequ - (Khemet) - seed
pequ - (Khosa) - seed
mbegu - (Swahili) - seed
muti - (Khemet) - dead person
maiti - (Swahili) - dead person
mpaitu - (Khemet) - not yet
mbado - (Swahili) - not yet
aagarta - (Khemet) - chariot
gari - (Swahili) - car
rua - (Khemet) - drive away, chase away
rua - (Gusii) - go away
mut - (Khemet) - lake, pond
muto - (Swahili) - river
ruti - (Khemet) - to return
rudi - (Swahili) - to return
nesh - (Khemet) - to sprinkle water
nyesha - (Swahilii) - to rain
mvua (Swahili) - rain
Imvula (xhosa) -
embura (Kisii) -
bura (Kikuyu) -
Imvula (Kinyarwanda) -
rema - (Khemet) - lion
rema - (Gusii) - brave
rema - (Khemet) - plot of ground
rema - (Gusii) - land, plough land
hai - (khemet) - naked,
haya - (Swahili) - shame
ua - (Khemet) - kill, destroy, upsde down ankh
ua - (Swahili) - kill, destroy
baka - (Khemet) - empregnate
baka - (Swahili) - rape
rirara - (Khemet) - make joyful noise
Iriria - kisii, ululate (iririata)
heh - (Khemet) - air, breath
hewa - (Swahili) - air, breath
Kuukuu - (Swahili), Kaka - older, elder
abagaka - (Gusi) - (omogaka)
guka(Kikuyu) - grand father
See kaka in egyptian

See more here:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1-6ZpBykuGrACGN5VJsWvpI4H69hrBe07
https://www.um.es/cepoat/egipcio/wp-content/uploads/egyptianhierogly.pdf

The above are Bantu words which I garnered from looking at the Ancient Egyptian Dictionary in the link above by Sir E. A. Willis Budge and comparing it with Swahili, Gusii Tribal Language and a a few other Bantu languages of East Africa e.g. Kikuyu, Kamba, Kinyarwanda, Kuria, Meru etc.

Below are some Hebrew words:
maji - (Swahili) - water
mayim - (Hebrew) - water
shilhi - (Hebrew) - weapon
silaha - (Swahili) - weapon
carmi - (Hebrew) - garden, vineyard
kirimi - (Meru) - farmer, gardener
malak - (Hebrew) - to take the throne and become king r queen
miliki - (Swahli) - take ownership, own
malkia - (Swahili) - queen
serarah - (Hebrew) - to rule
sera - (Swahili) - rulership policies
poa - (Hebrew) - splendid
poa - (Swahili) - splendid
khahm - (Hebrew) - in-law
kamati - (Gusii) - in-law

Food for Thought:
1. Perhaps African's were not savages after all.
2. The out of Africa theory might not be entirely accurate.
3. Bantu classification as coming from Niger Congo might need to be relooked at in favour of a more northerly origin in agreement with tribal accounts of origins from a place called Misri which is synonymous with Egypt.

Do you know the history of Swahili? When did it enter East Africa from
the Bantu homeland farther to the west? How could it have encountered
Arabic, let alone Hebrew?

Post by t***@gmail.com
I say this because both cultures have significant influence of Ancient Egyptian words which bore great influence to both these cultures.
http://www.kaa-umati.co.uk/

Peter T. Daniels

2019-10-20 16:19:32 UTC

(We do not top-post in this newsgroup)

You say your source for Egyptian is Budge's dictionary, more than a
century old and, apparently, filled with vowels. The vowels of Egyptian
words are unknown.

What I see listed as "Egyptian" (what you call Kemet) are in many cases
Common Semitic words, obviously borrowed from Arabic in recent centuries.

Only if the Egyptian name had been deciphered before that word came to be
used in Swahili.

You haven't answered my basic question: How would it have been possible
for Swahili (which didn't exist in ancient times, so, ok, its Common
Bantu ancestor) in West Africa to have acquired any Egyptian vocabulary
at all?

Post by Tommy Mogaka
busu - (Swahili) - to kiss
busu - (Khemet) - to kiss
beberu - (Swahili) - strong man, , was the term used to reffere to the colonialists
bebu - (Khemet) - strong man
bariki - (Swahili) - to bless
bareka - (Khemet) - to bless

Arabic

Post by Tommy Mogaka
paRa - (Khemet) - the Sun
bara - (Gusii) - the sun to shine
paa - (Khemet) - to fly
paa - (Swahilit) - to fly
m'tchar - (Khemet) - to obey
m'cha - (Swahili) - to obey
pesi - (Khemet) - tax
pesa - (Swahili) - money
pequ - (Khemet) - seed
pequ - (Khosa) - seed
mbegu - (Swahili) - seed
muti - (Khemet) - dead person
maiti - (Swahili) - dead person

Arabic

Post by Tommy Mogaka
mpaitu - (Khemet) - not yet
mbado - (Swahili) - not yet
aagarta - (Khemet) - chariot
gari - (Swahili) - car

English

Post by Tommy Mogaka
rua - (Khemet) - drive away, chase away
rua - (Gusii) - go away
mut - (Khemet) - lake, pond
muto - (Swahili) - river
ruti - (Khemet) - to return
rudi - (Swahili) - to return
nesh - (Khemet) - to sprinkle water
nyesha - (Swahilii) - to rain
mvua (Swahili) - rain
Imvula (xhosa) -
embura (Kisii) -
bura (Kikuyu) -
Imvula (Kinyarwanda) -
rema - (Khemet) - lion
rema - (Gusii) - brave
rema - (Khemet) - plot of ground
rema - (Gusii) - land, plough land
hai - (khemet) - naked,
haya - (Swahili) - shame
ua - (Khemet) - kill, destroy, upsde down ankh
ua - (Swahili) - kill, destroy
baka - (Khemet) - empregnate
baka - (Swahili) - rape
rirara - (Khemet) - make joyful noise
Iriria - kisii, ululate (iririata)

onomatopoeic

Post by Tommy Mogaka
heh - (Khemet) - air, breath
hewa - (Swahili) - air, breath

Arabic

Post by Tommy Mogaka
Kuukuu - (Swahili), Kaka - older, elder
abagaka - (Gusi) - (omogaka)
guka(Kikuyu) - grand father
See kaka in egyptian
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1-6ZpBykuGrACGN5VJsWvpI4H69hrBe07
https://www.um.es/cepoat/egipcio/wp-content/uploads/egyptianhierogly.pdf
The above are Bantu words which I garnered from looking at the Ancient Egyptian Dictionary in the link above by Sir E. A. Willis Budge and comparing it with Swahili, Gusii Tribal Language and a a few other Bantu languages of East Africa e.g. Kikuyu, Kamba, Kinyarwanda, Kuria, Meru etc.

I don't even know Arabic and those are a few of the words I recognize.

Post by Tommy Mogaka
maji - (Swahili) - water
mayim - (Hebrew) - water
shilhi - (Hebrew) - weapon
silaha - (Swahili) - weapon
carmi - (Hebrew) - garden, vineyard
kirimi - (Meru) - farmer, gardener
malak - (Hebrew) - to take the throne and become king r queen
miliki - (Swahli) - take ownership, own
malkia - (Swahili) - queen
serarah - (Hebrew) - to rule
sera - (Swahili) - rulership policies
poa - (Hebrew) - splendid
poa - (Swahili) - splendid
khahm - (Hebrew) - in-law
kamati - (Gusii) - in-law

With that list you're on much solider ground, since most or all of them
are Common Semitic words with Arabic cognates of the Hebrew words you
list. Thus, all or nearly all are loans from Arabic.

Post by Tommy Mogaka
1. Perhaps African's were not savages after all.

No one thinks they were.

Post by Tommy Mogaka
2. The out of Africa theory might not be entirely accurate.

What would that have to do with the borrowing of words between Egyptian
and Swahili? "Out of Africa" says that the genus Homo evolved in Africa
and spread from there, perhaps between 100,000 and 50,000 years ago.

Post by Tommy Mogaka
3. Bantu classification as coming from Niger Congo might need to be relooked at in favour of a more northerly origin in agreement with tribal accounts of origins from a place called Misri which is synonymous with Egypt.

Population movements have little to no connection with language movements.

The Bantu languages show regular correspondences with the other language
families that make up the Niger-Congo phylum and none that correspond
with those of the Afroasiatic phylum.

Do you know the history of Swahili? When did it enter East Africa from
the Bantu homeland farther to the west? How could it have encountered
Arabic, let alone Hebrew?

Post by t***@gmail.com
I say this because both cultures have significant influence of Ancient Egyptian words which bore great influence to both these cultures.
http://www.kaa-umati.co.uk/

Tommy Mogaka

2019-10-20 17:46:16 UTC

My apologies... what is to "top-post" and please tell me how I avoid doing so if it is unacceptable in the newsgroup.

Well, no vowels you say, then the good Sir who compiled the dictionary was mistaken but even so, the absence of the vowels makes even a greater evidence because he supplied the wrong vowels of which if he left the consonants standing alone then a Bantu would easily supply the exact correct vowels.

I was hoping you would give the Arabic, Hebrew and English equivalents instead of just stating that the words I pointed out are so. If these words are absent in both Arabic and Hebrew and other Semitic languages then perhaps you should consider an African origin for them.

I don't have much if you ignore the other sciences, arts and religion in discussing this topic except to say but that it wise to look beyond linguistics but even so, take linguistics as a whole and you will see that Swahili and Bantu weren't what they were today but had Proto-Bantu roots in Northern Africa. Notice the usage of the "M" as pronounced with an apostrophe "'" before it which is unique to the Great lakes region but absent in Hebrew and Arabic.

Whilst Niger-Congo West African are also of Hamitic stock then it isobvious that they would have common words with Bantu people so the the Niger-Congo hypothesis is just one explanation of the origin of Bantu people as it naturally would be because of common family origin. Remember, if you discard the evolutionary theory for a moment then you will see that some "Misraimite" African families settled North East, while other's settled the West.

Genetically, tribes like the Luhya have been found to have Jewish blood which also adds to the fact that many tribes attest to nothernly origins in a place called Misri which linguists say is in W. Africa(Niger-Congo) but which doesn't add up against other evidence. Many cultural practices persist to this day including Musical instruments only found in Africa great lakes regions.

Evolutionary argument will always shout that humans started in Africa hence the closest people to primitive man are of course the African's which I believe is part of the bias as to why it is hard to consider that African's could ever have influenced any other culture.

Good science always considers alternative explanations to long held suppositions especially if important material facts were not earlier considered. Anyways, I am but a humble African who doesn't hold to evolution so we probably see eye to eye on the matter so I wish you a good day friend! :-)

//P.S. "Just think, that this race of Black men, today our slave and the object of our scorn, is the very race to which we owe our arts, sciences, and even the use of speech! Just imagine, finally, that it is in the midst of people who call themselves the greatest friends of liberty and humanity that one has approved the most barbarous slavery, and questioned whether Black men have the same kind of intelligence as whites!

"In other words the ancient Egyptians were true Negroes of the same stock as all the autochthonous peoples of Africa and from the datum one sees how their race, after some centuries of mixing with the blood of Romans and Greeks, must have lost the full blackness of its original color but retained the impress of its original mould."

M. Constantine de Volney, Travels through Syria and Egypt in the Years 1783, 1784, and 1785 (London: 1787), p. 80-83.

Post by Peter T. Daniels
(We do not top-post in this newsgroup)
You say your source for Egyptian is Budge's dictionary, more than a
century old and, apparently, filled with vowels. The vowels of Egyptian
words are unknown.
What I see listed as "Egyptian" (what you call Kemet) are in many cases
Common Semitic words, obviously borrowed from Arabic in recent centuries.

Only if the Egyptian name had been deciphered before that word came to be
used in Swahili.
You haven't answered my basic question: How would it have been possible
for Swahili (which didn't exist in ancient times, so, ok, its Common
Bantu ancestor) in West Africa to have acquired any Egyptian vocabulary
at all?

Arabic

Post by Tommy Mogaka
mpaitu - (Khemet) - not yet
mbado - (Swahili) - not yet
aagarta - (Khemet) - chariot
gari - (Swahili) - car

English

onomatopoeic

Post by Tommy Mogaka
heh - (Khemet) - air, breath
hewa - (Swahili) - air, breath

Arabic

I don't even know Arabic and those are a few of the words I recognize.

With that list you're on much solider ground, since most or all of them
are Common Semitic words with Arabic cognates of the Hebrew words you
list. Thus, all or nearly all are loans from Arabic.

Post by Tommy Mogaka
1. Perhaps African's were not savages after all.

No one thinks they were.

Post by Tommy Mogaka
2. The out of Africa theory might not be entirely accurate.

Population movements have little to no connection with language movements.
The Bantu languages show regular correspondences with the other language
families that make up the Niger-Congo phylum and none that correspond
with those of the Afroasiatic phylum.

Do you know the history of Swahili? When did it enter East Africa from
the Bantu homeland farther to the west? How could it have encountered
Arabic, let alone Hebrew?

Post by t***@gmail.com
I say this because both cultures have significant influence of Ancient Egyptian words which bore great influence to both these cultures.
http://www.kaa-umati.co.uk/

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2019-10-20 18:33:36 UTC

Post by Tommy Mogaka
My apologies... what is to "top-post" and please tell me how I avoid
doing so if it is unacceptable in the newsgroup.

When you're having a conversation, do you answer a question before it's
been asked?

Post by Tommy Mogaka
Top-posting
What's the most irritating thing on UseNet?
What's the most irritating thing on UseNet?
Top-posting

That's bottom-posting.

--
athel

Ruud Harmsen

2019-10-20 18:52:54 UTC

Sun, 20 Oct 2019 10:46:16 -0700 (PDT): Tommy Mogaka

Post by Tommy Mogaka
My apologies... what is to "top-post" and please tell me how I avoid doing so if it is unacceptable in the newsgroup.

https://rudhar.com/sfreview/plyafter.htm

I wrote that 20 years ago.

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Ruud Harmsen

2019-10-20 19:09:09 UTC

Sun, 20 Oct 2019 10:46:16 -0700 (PDT): Tommy Mogaka

Post by Tommy Mogaka
Well, no vowels you say, then the good Sir who compiled the dictionary was mistaken
but even so, the absence of the vowels makes even a greater evidence because he
supplied the wrong vowels of which if he left the consonants standing alone then a Bantu
would easily supply the exact correct vowels.

Yeah, right.

You are not aware that the role of vowel in Semitic languages is
totally different from their role in Bantu languages?

Post by Tommy Mogaka
I was hoping you would give the Arabic, Hebrew and English equivalents instead of just
stating that the words I pointed out are so. If these words are absent in both Arabic and
Hebrew and other Semitic languages then perhaps you should consider an African origin
for them.

Wouldn't you think work on Swahili etymology has already been done?

Why is it that amateur beginnners in etymology always seem to think
that nothing is known, and THEY have to invent everything?

Post by Tommy Mogaka
I don't have much if you ignore the other sciences, arts and religion in discussing this topic

Arts and religion have zero to do with the subfield of linguistics,
etymology.

Post by Tommy Mogaka
except to say but that it wise to look beyond linguistics but even so, take linguistics as a
whole and you will see that Swahili and Bantu weren't what they were today but had
Proto-Bantu roots in Northern Africa.

Unlikely.

Post by Tommy Mogaka
Notice the usage of the "M" as pronounced with an apostrophe "'" before it which
is unique to the Great lakes region but absent in Hebrew and Arabic.

Perhaps that might be because Hebrew and Arabic are Semitic languages
and nog Ba-ntu? Would that be possible?

Post by Tommy Mogaka
Whilst Niger-Congo West African are also of Hamitic stock

No, they are not. (Apart from the fact that "Hamitic" is an obsolete
and now invalid term.)

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niger-Congotalen
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afro-Aziatische_talen

Post by Tommy Mogaka
Genetically, tribes like the Luhya have been found to have Jewish blood

Very unlikely. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luhya_people

Gobble de gook.

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Tommy Mogaka

2019-10-21 03:59:43 UTC

Please reconsider an alternative thought process to the origin of Swahili and the influence of African culture on Hebrew and Arabic language and way of life.

pequ - Seed (Ancient Egyptian)
pequ - Seed (Xhosa)
mbegu- Seed (Swahili)

Egypt being older than Arab or Hebrew Culture may have dispersed the first seeds of Swahili in the form 0f proto-bantu.

Swahili retains a high degree of inherited vocabulary, grammar, and sounds. Of a 100 word list of basic vocabulary, for example, 72-91 percent is inherited, while only 4-17 percent are loans from other African languages and 2-8 percent from non-African languages.

Loanwords from Arabic are included in this “2-8 percent from non-African languages.” Swahili clearly borrows a very small proportion of its vocabulary from Arabic, but these few loanwords were deemed sufficient basis for declaring that Swahili is not a conventional African language but a hybrid, a lingua franca, a creole, birthed by the arrival of Arabs on the East African coast. And so a beautiful language was stolen from Africa. - Thomas Spear

//FURTHER READING:
1. A HISTORY OF SWAHILI, BEVERLY E. COLEMAN
2. Genesis 10: The table of Nations (the Son's of Ham)
3. Early Swahili History Reconsidered, Thomas Spear
4. Shanga, Thomas Spear
5. Swahili's Pre-Islamic roots, Mark Horton
6. How to Steal a Language, Kamau Muiga

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Sun, 20 Oct 2019 10:46:16 -0700 (PDT): Tommy Mogaka

Yeah, right.
You are not aware that the role of vowel in Semitic languages is
totally different from their role in Bantu languages?

Wouldn't you think work on Swahili etymology has already been done?
Why is it that amateur beginnners in etymology always seem to think
that nothing is known, and THEY have to invent everything?

Post by Tommy Mogaka
I don't have much if you ignore the other sciences, arts and religion in discussing this topic

Arts and religion have zero to do with the subfield of linguistics,
etymology.

Unlikely.

Post by Tommy Mogaka
Notice the usage of the "M" as pronounced with an apostrophe "'" before it which
is unique to the Great lakes region but absent in Hebrew and Arabic.

Perhaps that might be because Hebrew and Arabic are Semitic languages
and nog Ba-ntu? Would that be possible?

Post by Tommy Mogaka
Whilst Niger-Congo West African are also of Hamitic stock

No, they are not. (Apart from the fact that "Hamitic" is an obsolete
and now invalid term.)
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niger-Congotalen
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afro-Aziatische_talen

Post by Tommy Mogaka
Genetically, tribes like the Luhya have been found to have Jewish blood

Very unlikely. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luhya_people

Gobble de gook.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

2019-10-20 19:24:24 UTC

Post by Tommy Mogaka
Good science always considers alternative explanations to long held suppositions especially if important material facts were not earlier considered.

I don't really think you are in any position to tell us what is "good science".

Good science follows the principle that the simplest explanation is the best, and that no extra stuff should be introduced if the simplest explanation is good enough. Moreover, you have not explained which "important material facts" haven't been "earlier considered".

It's only too obvious that you think that nobody has looked into Swahili before you. You can rest assured that real linguists have taken a profound interest in African languages and tried to work out classifications and etymologies for them.

If you want to introduce a novel theory, you don't need to be a PhD to do it. What you do need to do is to find out what previous scholars have done, demonstrate that you know it, and explain where the previous scholars' work has gone wrong. The problem is that you don't know it - the only source you actually quote is some 1700s travellers. African linguistics has since then developed a lot, thanks to both African-born and European linguists working together.

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2019-10-20 19:42:46 UTC

Post by Tommy Mogaka
Good science always considers alternative explanations to long held
suppositions especially if important material facts were not earlier
considered.

I don't really think you are in any position to tell us what is "good science".

Oh dear. A kindred soul to poor Franz.

Post by MÅcisÅaw Wojna-Bojewski
Good science follows the principle that the simplest explanation is the
best, and that no extra stuff should be introduced if the simplest
explanation is good enough. Moreover, you have not explained which
"important material facts" haven't been "earlier considered".
It's only too obvious that you think that nobody has looked into
Swahili before you. You can rest assured that real linguists have taken
a profound interest in African languages and tried to work out
classifications and etymologies for them.
If you want to introduce a novel theory, you don't need to be a PhD to
do it. What you do need to do is to find out what previous scholars
have done, demonstrate that you know it, and explain where the previous
scholars' work has gone wrong. The problem is that you don't know it -
the only source you actually quote is some 1700s travellers. African
linguistics has since then developed a lot, thanks to both African-born
and European linguists working together.

--
athel

Ruud Harmsen

2019-10-20 19:24:54 UTC

Sun, 20 Oct 2019 10:46:16 -0700 (PDT): Tommy Mogaka

the bias as to why it is hard to consider that African's [sic]
could ever have influenced any other culture.

Ever heard of blues music, jazz music, soul music?

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Tommy Mogaka

2019-10-21 03:47:43 UTC

Post by Tommy Mogaka
My apologies... what is to "top-post" and please tell me how I avoid doing so if it is unacceptable in the newsgroup.

You "top-post" when you add what you have to say before everything that
you quote. Most newsreaders put the cursor for your contributions at the
end of the last passage quoted when you reply.

Post by Tommy Mogaka
Well, no vowels you say, then the good Sir who compiled the dictionary was mistaken but even so, the absence of the vowels makes even a greater evidence because he supplied the wrong vowels of which if he left the consonants standing alone then a Bantu would easily supply the exact correct vowels.

Post by Tommy Mogaka
I was hoping you would give the Arabic, Hebrew and English equivalents instead of just stating that the words I pointed out are so. If these words are absent in both Arabic and Hebrew and other Semitic languages then perhaps you should consider an African origin for them.

Of course the Swahili words that aren't borrowed from Arabic are of
African origin!

Post by Tommy Mogaka
I don't have much if you ignore the other sciences, arts and religion in discussing this topic except to say but that it wise to look beyond linguistics but even so, take linguistics as a whole and you will see that Swahili and Bantu weren't what they were today but had Proto-Bantu roots in Northern Africa.

In West Africa. "North Africa" normally refers to the region that is now
primarily Arabic-speaking, with some Berber languages nobly hanging on,
north of the Sahara.

Post by Tommy Mogaka
Notice the usage of the "M" as pronounced with an apostrophe "'" before it which is unique to the Great lakes region but absent in Hebrew and Arabic.

Post by Tommy Mogaka
Whilst Niger-Congo West African are also of Hamitic stock then it

"Hamitic" has no meaning whatsoever. Either in language terms or in
"race" terms.

Post by Tommy Mogaka
isobvious that they would have common words with Bantu people so the the Niger-Congo hypothesis is just one explanation of the origin of Bantu people as it naturally would be because of common family origin. Remember, if you discard the evolutionary theory for a moment then you will see that some "Misraimite" African families settled North East, while other's settled the West.

As I said, "language origin" and "racial origin" need have no connection
at all.
No idea what your last sentence means.

Post by Tommy Mogaka
Genetically, tribes like the Luhya have been found to have Jewish blood

no such thing as "Jewish blood"

Post by Tommy Mogaka
which also adds to the fact that many tribes attest to nothernly origins in a place called Misri which linguists say is in W. Africa(Niger-Congo) but which doesn't add up against other evidence. Many cultural practices persist to this day including Musical instruments only found in Africa great lakes regions.
Evolutionary argument will always shout that humans started in Africa hence the closest people to primitive man are of course the African's which I believe is part of the bias as to why it is hard to consider that African's could ever have influenced any other culture.

What nonsense. You take the kernel of truth -- the Hominids evolved in
Africa -- and erect some sort of race inferiority BS on top of it.

Post by Tommy Mogaka
Good science always considers alternative explanations to long held suppositions especially if important material facts were not earlier considered. Anyways, I am but a humble African who doesn't hold to evolution so we probably see eye to eye on the matter so I wish you a good day friend! :-)
//P.S. "Just think, that this race of Black men, today our slave and the object of our scorn, is the very race to which we owe our arts, sciences, and even the use of speech! Just imagine, finally, that it is in the midst of people who call themselves the greatest friends of liberty and humanity that one has approved the most barbarous slavery, and questioned whether Black men have the same kind of intelligence as whites!
"In other words the ancient Egyptians were true Negroes of the same stock as all the autochthonous peoples of Africa and from the datum one sees how their race, after some centuries of mixing with the blood of Romans and Greeks, must have lost the full blackness of its original color but retained the impress of its original mould."
M. Constantine de Volney, Travels through Syria and Egypt in the Years 1783, 1784, and 1785 (London: 1787), p. 80-83.

The concept of human races as variants of a single stock hadn't even been
articulated at that time. It was first published by Blumenbach in 1785;
he was apparently the first to state that "Negroids" and "Mongoloids"
belonged to the same species as "Caucasoids."
Are you from Africa? I suspected that perhaps you attend(ed) Temple
University in Philadelphia, which about 30 years ago housed an extreme
Afrocentricist who taught things like what you have said. He was a very
nice man indeed, but he had no knowledge of linguistics and made quite
bizarre statements about linguistic relations. (I'm sorry I don't remember
his name.)

Ross

2019-10-21 04:39:45 UTC

Xhosa imbewu. Pretty good resemblance; not surprising, since we know
Swahili and Xhosa are related.

For Ancient Egyptian, the closest thing I can find is:

bʿ fruit, seed, grain

A one-consonant match. Chance resemblances like that are very common.

Tommy Mogaka

2019-10-21 05:14:33 UTC

Xhosa imbewu. Pretty good resemblance; not surprising, since we know
Swahili and Xhosa are related.
bʿ fruit, seed, grain
A one-consonant match. Chance resemblances like that are very common.

Which dictionary did you use? I used the one by Sir Earnet Budge and saw the word pequ meaning seed in ancient Egyptian.

See page two of the word list that I have found so far:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1AYmFAddifJDOZC-SIeKxySWHeoiDq9Xw

Ross

2019-10-21 06:00:55 UTC

Xhosa imbewu. Pretty good resemblance; not surprising, since we know
Swahili and Xhosa are related.
bʿ fruit, seed, grain
A one-consonant match. Chance resemblances like that are very common.

Which dictionary did you use? I used the one by Sir Earnet Budge and saw the word pequ meaning seed in ancient Egyptian.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1AYmFAddifJDOZC-SIeKxySWHeoiDq9Xw

Online dictionary by Mark Vygus.
https://www.pyramidtextsonline.com/MarkVygusDictionary.pdf

It's already been pointed out that Budge is not a credible source.

Tommy Mogaka

2019-10-21 06:49:50 UTC

Xhosa imbewu. Pretty good resemblance; not surprising, since we know
Swahili and Xhosa are related.
bʿ fruit, seed, grain
A one-consonant match. Chance resemblances like that are very common.

Which dictionary did you use? I used the one by Sir Earnet Budge and saw the word pequ meaning seed in ancient Egyptian.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1AYmFAddifJDOZC-SIeKxySWHeoiDq9Xw

Online dictionary by Mark Vygus.
https://www.pyramidtextsonline.com/MarkVygusDictionary.pdf
It's already been pointed out that Budge is not a credible source.

Why is Sir Earnest Budge not credible? Because his works are 100 years old or what?

What about Sir Alan Gardiner?

Tommy Mogaka

2019-10-21 06:55:00 UTC

Xhosa imbewu. Pretty good resemblance; not surprising, since we know
Swahili and Xhosa are related.
bʿ fruit, seed, grain
A one-consonant match. Chance resemblances like that are very common.

Which dictionary did you use? I used the one by Sir Earnet Budge and saw the word pequ meaning seed in ancient Egyptian.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1AYmFAddifJDOZC-SIeKxySWHeoiDq9Xw

Online dictionary by Mark Vygus.
https://www.pyramidtextsonline.com/MarkVygusDictionary.pdf
It's already been pointed out that Budge is not a credible source.

Who is Mark Vygus? What are his credentials? And it seems that his dictionary mostly Middle Egyptian...

Have you considered that the older Ancient Egyptian words could be non Semitic?

Arnaud Fournet

2019-10-21 08:10:40 UTC

Xhosa imbewu. Pretty good resemblance; not surprising, since we know
Swahili and Xhosa are related.
bʿ fruit, seed, grain
A one-consonant match. Chance resemblances like that are very common.

Which dictionary did you use? I used the one by Sir Earnet Budge and saw the word pequ meaning seed in ancient Egyptian.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1AYmFAddifJDOZC-SIeKxySWHeoiDq9Xw

Online dictionary by Mark Vygus.
https://www.pyramidtextsonline.com/MarkVygusDictionary.pdf
It's already been pointed out that Budge is not a credible source.

Who is Mark Vygus? What are his credentials? And it seems that his dictionary mostly Middle Egyptian...
Have you considered that the older Ancient Egyptian words could be non Semitic?

Apparently, Egyptological forums seem to consider Vygus's work as good and valuable stuff.

Tommy Mogaka

2019-10-21 08:41:05 UTC

Xhosa imbewu. Pretty good resemblance; not surprising, since we know
Swahili and Xhosa are related.
bʿ fruit, seed, grain
A one-consonant match. Chance resemblances like that are very common.

Which dictionary did you use? I used the one by Sir Earnet Budge and saw the word pequ meaning seed in ancient Egyptian.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1AYmFAddifJDOZC-SIeKxySWHeoiDq9Xw

Online dictionary by Mark Vygus.
https://www.pyramidtextsonline.com/MarkVygusDictionary.pdf
It's already been pointed out that Budge is not a credible source.

Who is Mark Vygus? What are his credentials? And it seems that his dictionary mostly Middle Egyptian...
Have you considered that the older Ancient Egyptian words could be non Semitic?

Apparently, Egyptological forums seem to consider Vygus's work as good and valuable stuff.

Haven't heard of him! Perhaps an internet sensation.

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2019-10-21 09:18:01 UTC

Xhosa imbewu. Pretty good resemblance; not surprising, since we know
Swahili and Xhosa are related.
bʿ fruit, seed, grain
A one-consonant match. Chance resemblances like that are very common.

Which dictionary did you use? I used the one by Sir Earnet Budge and
saw the word pequ meaning seed in ancient Egyptian.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1AYmFAddifJDOZC-SIeKxySWHeoiDq9Xw

Online dictionary by Mark Vygus.
https://www.pyramidtextsonline.com/MarkVygusDictionary.pdf
It's already been pointed out that Budge is not a credible source.

Who is Mark Vygus? What are his credentials? And it seems that his
dictionary mostly Middle Egyptian...> >> > Have you considered that the
older Ancient Egyptian words could be non Semitic?

Apparently, Egyptological forums seem to consider Vygus's work as good
and valuable stuff.

Haven't heard of him! Perhaps an internet sensation.

That comment simply underlines everyone's impression that you have no
qualifications to be speculating about Egyptian.

--
athel

Tommy Mogaka

2019-10-21 09:20:43 UTC

Xhosa imbewu. Pretty good resemblance; not surprising, since we know
Swahili and Xhosa are related.
bʿ fruit, seed, grain
A one-consonant match. Chance resemblances like that are very common.

Which dictionary did you use? I used the one by Sir Earnet Budge and
saw the word pequ meaning seed in ancient Egyptian.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1AYmFAddifJDOZC-SIeKxySWHeoiDq9Xw

Online dictionary by Mark Vygus.
https://www.pyramidtextsonline.com/MarkVygusDictionary.pdf
It's already been pointed out that Budge is not a credible source.

Who is Mark Vygus? What are his credentials? And it seems that his
dictionary mostly Middle Egyptian...> >> > Have you considered that the
older Ancient Egyptian words could be non Semitic?

Apparently, Egyptological forums seem to consider Vygus's work as good
and valuable stuff.

Haven't heard of him! Perhaps an internet sensation.

That comment simply underlines everyone's impression that you have no
qualifications to be speculating about Egyptian.
--
athel

Ok noted...

Ross

2019-10-21 11:48:22 UTC

Xhosa imbewu. Pretty good resemblance; not surprising, since we know
Swahili and Xhosa are related.
bʿ fruit, seed, grain
A one-consonant match. Chance resemblances like that are very common.

Which dictionary did you use? I used the one by Sir Earnet Budge and saw the word pequ meaning seed in ancient Egyptian.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1AYmFAddifJDOZC-SIeKxySWHeoiDq9Xw

Online dictionary by Mark Vygus.
https://www.pyramidtextsonline.com/MarkVygusDictionary.pdf
It's already been pointed out that Budge is not a credible source.

Who is Mark Vygus? What are his credentials? And it seems that his dictionary mostly Middle Egyptian...
Have you considered that the older Ancient Egyptian words could be non Semitic?

A.E. is not Semitic at any stage, though related to Semitic.

Tommy Mogaka

2019-10-21 13:10:46 UTC

Xhosa imbewu. Pretty good resemblance; not surprising, since we know
Swahili and Xhosa are related.
bʿ fruit, seed, grain
A one-consonant match. Chance resemblances like that are very common.

Which dictionary did you use? I used the one by Sir Earnet Budge and saw the word pequ meaning seed in ancient Egyptian.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1AYmFAddifJDOZC-SIeKxySWHeoiDq9Xw

Online dictionary by Mark Vygus.
https://www.pyramidtextsonline.com/MarkVygusDictionary.pdf
It's already been pointed out that Budge is not a credible source.

Who is Mark Vygus? What are his credentials? And it seems that his dictionary mostly Middle Egyptian...
Have you considered that the older Ancient Egyptian words could be non Semitic?

A.E. is not Semitic at any stage, though related to Semitic.

True... they weren't but am sure they had some Semitic influence perhaps from the Hyksos Kings or Shepherd Kings of Egypt or maybe the Arabs later on?

Arnaud Fournet

2019-10-21 07:53:19 UTC

Xhosa imbewu. Pretty good resemblance; not surprising, since we know
Swahili and Xhosa are related.
bʿ fruit, seed, grain
A one-consonant match. Chance resemblances like that are very common.

Which dictionary did you use? I used the one by Sir Earnet Budge and saw the word pequ meaning seed in ancient Egyptian.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1AYmFAddifJDOZC-SIeKxySWHeoiDq9Xw

Thank you for uploading this, which proves my previous post.
pequ is glossed "a seed or fruit",
it does not mean "seed".

Arnaud Fournet

2019-10-21 07:50:42 UTC

Budge tome 1 p.252 reads pequ "a seed or fruit"
This gloss suggests that the word pequ describes some unclear kind of staple.
The word does not mean "seed" in general.
Conclusion: You're cheating with semantics, tailoring Budge's glosses to fit your agenda.
Besides, final -u in pequ is probably a plural marker, as the hieroglyphs have the three vertical lines of plural at the end of the string: p-q-u-Plural

Tommy Mogaka

2019-10-21 08:43:15 UTC

Well, what about the word for food... it also includes the word pequ which is a close reference to seed. How is that cheating to compare the two?

Arnaud Fournet

2019-10-21 08:55:14 UTC

Well, what about the word for food... it also includes the word pequ which is a close reference to seed. How is that cheating to compare the two?

We apparently don't know what Egyptian pq-u means. It may also describe a kind of fruit.
In all cases, your comparison of pq-u with Swahili m-begu is worthless.

Tommy Mogaka

2019-10-21 09:30:46 UTC

Well, what about the word for food... it also includes the word pequ which is a close reference to seed. How is that cheating to compare the two?

We apparently don't know what Egyptian pq-u means. It may also describe a kind of fruit.
In all cases, your comparison of pq-u with Swahili m-begu is worthless.

One last comment on the meaning of PEQU

Looks like it really does mean seed or fruit or seed of fruit. Search for the word below:

The Sound of Meaning: Comparative Linguistics of Ancient Egyptian, Maya and Nahuatl

https://books.google.co.ke/books?id=vDXYMct_fRQC&pg=PA59&lpg=PA59&dq=pequ+meaning+"seed"&source=bl&ots=IOJtKjI44B&sig=ACfU3U1KHkgcCiDrUCbKb0KUcM7S8u_ywA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj2gqjfg63lAhVaQEEAHSJtAikQ6AEwAHoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=pequ%20meaning%20"seed"&f=false

Ross

2019-10-21 12:04:06 UTC

Well, what about the word for food... it also includes the word pequ which is a close reference to seed. How is that cheating to compare the two?

We apparently don't know what Egyptian pq-u means. It may also describe a kind of fruit.
In all cases, your comparison of pq-u with Swahili m-begu is worthless.

One last comment on the meaning of PEQU
The Sound of Meaning: Comparative Linguistics of Ancient Egyptian, Maya and Nahuatl
https://books.google.co.ke/books?id=vDXYMct_fRQC&pg=PA59&lpg=PA59&dq=pequ+meaning+"seed"&source=bl&ots=IOJtKjI44B&sig=ACfU3U1KHkgcCiDrUCbKb0KUcM7S8u_ywA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj2gqjfg63lAhVaQEEAHSJtAikQ6AEwAHoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=pequ%20meaning%20"seed"&f=false

!!! Why on earth would you think this book confirms your idea about the
meaning of "pequ"?? The author has clearly copied it from Budge just
as you did, and doesn't know any more about it than you or I do.

The problem is that a gloss like "a seed or fruit" has two possible
meanings. It could be generic (any seed or any fruit), or it could
be specific but undetermined (some type of seed or fruit, but we
can't be sure what kind). Situations of indeterminacy like this are
common in ancient languages.

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

2019-10-21 08:07:50 UTC

Post by Tommy Mogaka
Please reconsider

No, we won't please you. Learn the languages involved, formulate what it is you exactly want to say, and build a coherent reasoning. Then we can talk.

Tommy Mogaka

2019-10-21 08:39:47 UTC

Post by Tommy Mogaka
Please reconsider

No, we won't please you. Learn the languages involved, formulate what it is you exactly want to say, and build a coherent reasoning. Then we can talk.

Sorry but I wasn't talking to you!

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

2019-10-21 08:50:20 UTC

Post by Tommy Mogaka
Please reconsider

No, we won't please you. Learn the languages involved, formulate what it is you exactly want to say, and build a coherent reasoning. Then we can talk.

Sorry but I wasn't talking to you!

Who you are talking to is of no importance. I am talking to you.

I am saying to you that you have no business begging people to pay attention to your speculations. Sorry, but science is not done that way.

Tommy Mogaka

2019-10-21 09:18:58 UTC

Post by Tommy Mogaka
Please reconsider

No, we won't please you. Learn the languages involved, formulate what it is you exactly want to say, and build a coherent reasoning. Then we can talk.

Sorry but I wasn't talking to you!

Who you are talking to is of no importance. I am talking to you.
I am saying to you that you have no business begging people to pay attention to your speculations. Sorry, but science is not done that way.

Good day buddy!

Peter T. Daniels

2019-10-21 11:41:24 UTC

Post by Tommy Mogaka
Please reconsider an alternative thought process to the origin of Swahili and the influence of African culture on Hebrew and Arabic language and way of life.
pequ - Seed (Ancient Egyptian)
pequ - Seed (Xhosa)
mbegu- Seed (Swahili)
Egypt being older than Arab or Hebrew Culture may have dispersed the first seeds of Swahili in the form 0f proto-bantu.
Swahili retains a high degree of inherited vocabulary, grammar, and sounds. Of a 100 word list of basic vocabulary, for example, 72-91 percent is inherited, while only 4-17 percent are loans from other African languages and 2-8 percent from non-African languages.
Loanwords from Arabic are included in this “2-8 percent from non-African languages.” Swahili clearly borrows a very small proportion of its vocabulary from Arabic, but these few loanwords were deemed sufficient basis for declaring that Swahili is not a conventional African language but a hybrid, a lingua franca, a creole, birthed by the arrival of Arabs on the East African coast. And so a beautiful language was stolen from Africa. - Thomas Spear
1. A HISTORY OF SWAHILI, BEVERLY E. COLEMAN
2. Genesis 10: The table of Nations (the Son's of Ham)
3. Early Swahili History Reconsidered, Thomas Spear
4. Shanga, Thomas Spear
5. Swahili's Pre-Islamic roots, Mark Horton

The 100-word "Swadesh list" is unlikely -- by definition -- to have
loanwords in it at all, so if 25% of it is not inherited vocabulary,
it's a very special case indeed.

Tommy Mogaka

2019-10-21 13:06:24 UTC

The 100-word "Swadesh list" is unlikely -- by definition -- to have
loanwords in it at all, so if 25% of it is not inherited vocabulary,
it's a very special case indeed.

Very true.... Depends on which 100 words but I get your point. A grand database of words needs to be created someday. For sure a computer will pick up patterns and relations and make them more apparent.

Ruud Harmsen

2019-10-20 18:44:58 UTC

Sun, 20 Oct 2019 09:19:32 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Tommy Mogaka
aagarta - (Khemet) - chariot
gari - (Swahili) - car

English

No, Hindi.

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Ruud Harmsen

2019-10-20 18:51:13 UTC

Sun, 20 Oct 2019 09:19:32 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Population movements have little to no connection with language movements.

Of course they have!

What is true, though, is that they do not always coincide, because
migrated populations sometimes adopt (or are forced to adopt) a
language of those already there, or vice versa.

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2019-10-20 18:54:57 UTC

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Sun, 20 Oct 2019 09:19:32 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Population movements have little to no connection with language movements.

Of course they have!
What is true, though, is that they do not always coincide, because
migrated populations sometimes adopt (or are forced to adopt) a
language of those already there, or vice versa.

I wonder how Peter thinks that English, Spanish and Portuguese became
the predominant languages in the Americas. Not by passive diffusion,
surely?

--
athel

Peter T. Daniels

2019-10-20 19:54:01 UTC

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Sun, 20 Oct 2019 09:19:32 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Population movements have little to no connection with language movements.

Of course they have!
What is true, though, is that they do not always coincide, because
migrated populations sometimes adopt (or are forced to adopt) a
language of those already there, or vice versa.

I wonder how Peter thinks that English, Spanish and Portuguese became
the predominant languages in the Americas. Not by passive diffusion,
surely?

I wonder whether Athel knows that almost no Native Americans speak any
language other than English, Spanish, or Portuguese? (Except in Mexico
and possibly Guatemala.)

The point being, of course, that Renfrew's nonsensical "theory" of the
spread of Indo-European is based on the spread of agriculture (detectable
in the archeological record) to Europe.

Yusuf B Gursey

2019-10-20 22:02:43 UTC

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Sun, 20 Oct 2019 09:19:32 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Population movements have little to no connection with language movements.

Of course they have!
What is true, though, is that they do not always coincide, because
migrated populations sometimes adopt (or are forced to adopt) a
language of those already there, or vice versa.

I wonder how Peter thinks that English, Spanish and Portuguese became
the predominant languages in the Americas. Not by passive diffusion,
surely?

I wonder whether Athel knows that almost no Native Americans speak any
language other than English, Spanish, or Portuguese? (Except in Mexico
and possibly Guatemala.)

Peru, Brazil, Bolivia, Paraguay among others.

Post by Peter T. Daniels
The point being, of course, that Renfrew's nonsensical "theory" of the
spread of Indo-European is based on the spread of agriculture (detectable
in the archeological record) to Europe.

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2019-10-21 06:14:01 UTC

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Sun, 20 Oct 2019 09:19:32 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Population movements have little to no connection with language movements.

Of course they have!
What is true, though, is that they do not always coincide, because
migrated populations sometimes adopt (or are forced to adopt) a
language of those already there, or vice versa.

I wonder how Peter thinks that English, Spanish and Portuguese became
the predominant languages in the Americas. Not by passive diffusion,
surely?

I wonder whether Athel knows that almost no Native Americans speak any
language other than English, Spanish, or Portuguese? (Except in Mexico
and possibly Guatemala.)

I'm unclear what point Peter is making here: he seems to be agreeing
with me that English, Spanish and Portuguese are predominant all over
the Americas.

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Peru, Brazil, Bolivia, Paraguay among others.

Paraguay is the only good example, where almost everyone can speak Guaraní.

--
athel

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

2019-10-21 08:10:10 UTC

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Sun, 20 Oct 2019 09:19:32 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Population movements have little to no connection with language movements.

Of course they have!
What is true, though, is that they do not always coincide, because
migrated populations sometimes adopt (or are forced to adopt) a
language of those already there, or vice versa.

I wonder how Peter thinks that English, Spanish and Portuguese became
the predominant languages in the Americas. Not by passive diffusion,
surely?

I wonder whether Athel knows that almost no Native Americans speak any
language other than English, Spanish, or Portuguese? (Except in Mexico
and possibly Guatemala.)

I'm unclear what point Peter is making here: he seems to be agreeing
with me that English, Spanish and Portuguese are predominant all over
the Americas.

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Peru, Brazil, Bolivia, Paraguay among others.

Paraguay is the only good example, where almost everyone can speak Guaraní.

Peru and Bolivia aren't that bad examples either, with lots of Quechua and Aymará speakers, not to mention smaller languages.

On the other hand, Brazil is quite depressingly monolingual. The once vigorous Nheengatu has almost disappeared.

Arnaud Fournet

2019-10-21 08:21:55 UTC

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Sun, 20 Oct 2019 09:19:32 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Population movements have little to no connection with language movements.

Of course they have!
What is true, though, is that they do not always coincide, because
migrated populations sometimes adopt (or are forced to adopt) a
language of those already there, or vice versa.

I wonder how Peter thinks that English, Spanish and Portuguese became
the predominant languages in the Americas. Not by passive diffusion,
surely?

I wonder whether Athel knows that almost no Native Americans speak any
language other than English, Spanish, or Portuguese? (Except in Mexico
and possibly Guatemala.)

I'm unclear what point Peter is making here: he seems to be agreeing
with me that English, Spanish and Portuguese are predominant all over
the Americas.

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Peru, Brazil, Bolivia, Paraguay among others.

Paraguay is the only good example, where almost everyone can speak Guaraní.

Peru and Bolivia aren't that bad examples either, with lots of Quechua and Aymará speakers, not to mention smaller languages.
On the other hand, Brazil is quite depressingly monolingual. The once vigorous Nheengatu has almost disappeared.

I've read that a Ph.D dissertation was recently written and discussed in Quechua at some Peruvian university. Une première.

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2019-10-21 08:29:47 UTC

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Sun, 20 Oct 2019 09:19:32 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Population movements have little to no connection with language movements.

Of course they have!
What is true, though, is that they do not always coincide, because
migrated populations sometimes adopt (or are forced to adopt) a
language of those already there, or vice versa.

I wonder how Peter thinks that English, Spanish and Portuguese became
the predominant languages in the Americas. Not by passive diffusion,
surely?

I wonder whether Athel knows that almost no Native Americans speak any
language other than English, Spanish, or Portuguese? (Except in Mexico
and possibly Guatemala.)

I'm unclear what point Peter is making here: he seems to be agreeing> >
with me that English, Spanish and Portuguese are predominant all over>

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
the Americas.
Peru, Brazil, Bolivia, Paraguay among others.

Paraguay is the only good example, where almost everyone can speak Guaraní.

Peru and Bolivia aren't that bad examples either, with lots of Quechua
and Aymará speakers, not to mention smaller languages.
On the other hand, Brazil is quite depressingly monolingual. The once
vigorous Nheengatu has almost disappeared.

I've read that a Ph.D dissertation was recently written and discussed
in Quechua at some Peruvian university. Une première.

Quechua seems to be gaining a lot more official recognition in Peru
than it had in the past, but it's still very far from being the
universally understood language that Guaraní is in Paraguay.

--
athel

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

2019-10-20 22:18:22 UTC

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Sun, 20 Oct 2019 09:19:32 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Population movements have little to no connection with language movements.

Of course they have!
What is true, though, is that they do not always coincide, because
migrated populations sometimes adopt (or are forced to adopt) a
language of those already there, or vice versa.

I wonder how Peter thinks that English, Spanish and Portuguese became
the predominant languages in the Americas. Not by passive diffusion,
surely?

I wonder whether Athel knows that almost no Native Americans speak any
language other than English, Spanish, or Portuguese? (Except in Mexico
and possibly Guatemala.)

I wonder whether you know that practically every Paraguayan, even those of immigrant European stock, speaks Guaraní.

Peter T. Daniels

2019-10-21 01:48:17 UTC

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Sun, 20 Oct 2019 09:19:32 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Population movements have little to no connection with language movements.

Of course they have!
What is true, though, is that they do not always coincide, because
migrated populations sometimes adopt (or are forced to adopt) a
language of those already there, or vice versa.

I wonder how Peter thinks that English, Spanish and Portuguese became
the predominant languages in the Americas. Not by passive diffusion,
surely?

I wonder whether Athel knows that almost no Native Americans speak any
language other than English, Spanish, or Portuguese? (Except in Mexico
and possibly Guatemala.)

I wonder whether you know that practically every Paraguayan, even those of immigrant European stock, speaks Guaraní.

UNESCO doesn't think so.

Ross

2019-10-21 03:47:03 UTC

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Sun, 20 Oct 2019 09:19:32 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Population movements have little to no connection with language movements.

Of course they have!
What is true, though, is that they do not always coincide, because
migrated populations sometimes adopt (or are forced to adopt) a
language of those already there, or vice versa.

I wonder how Peter thinks that English, Spanish and Portuguese became
the predominant languages in the Americas. Not by passive diffusion,
surely?

I wonder whether Athel knows that almost no Native Americans speak any
language other than English, Spanish, or Portuguese? (Except in Mexico
and possibly Guatemala.)

I wonder whether you know that practically every Paraguayan, even those of immigrant European stock, speaks Guaraní.

UNESCO doesn't think so.

So what does UNESCO think?
Ethnologue (2016) says Guarani has 4.85 million native speakers.
And someone should have mentioned Quechua, with probably more speakers.

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

2019-10-21 08:05:38 UTC

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Sun, 20 Oct 2019 09:19:32 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Population movements have little to no connection with language movements.

Of course they have!
What is true, though, is that they do not always coincide, because
migrated populations sometimes adopt (or are forced to adopt) a
language of those already there, or vice versa.

I wonder how Peter thinks that English, Spanish and Portuguese became
the predominant languages in the Americas. Not by passive diffusion,
surely?

I wonder whether Athel knows that almost no Native Americans speak any
language other than English, Spanish, or Portuguese? (Except in Mexico
and possibly Guatemala.)

I wonder whether you know that practically every Paraguayan, even those of immigrant European stock, speaks Guaraní.

UNESCO doesn't think so.

I couldn't care less.

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2019-10-21 06:17:02 UTC

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Sun, 20 Oct 2019 09:19:32 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Population movements have little to no connection with language
movements.> > > Of course they have!

What is true, though, is that they do not always coincide, because
migrated populations sometimes adopt (or are forced to adopt) a
language of those already there, or vice versa.

I wonder how Peter thinks that English, Spanish and Portuguese became>

Post by Ruud Harmsen
the predominant languages in the Americas. Not by passive diffusion,>
surely?

I wonder whether Athel knows that almost no Native Americans speak any>
language other than English, Spanish, or Portuguese? (Except in Mexico>
and possibly Guatemala.)

I wonder whether you know that practically every Paraguayan, even those
of immigrant European stock, speaks Guaraní.

Well, I knew that, but there is little to suggest that Peter did.

--
athel

Christian Weisgerber

2019-10-20 22:01:47 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels
I wonder whether Athel knows that almost no Native Americans speak any
language other than English, Spanish, or Portuguese? (Except in Mexico
and possibly Guatemala.)

Paraguay with Guarani immediately comes to mind. I vaguely remember
a soccer international between Paraguay and a team from some other
hispanophone country, where the commentator pointed out that the
Paraguayans were using Guarani on the pitch so they wouldn't be
overheard by the other team.

Anyway, the modern linguistic situation in the Americas didn't come
about because the natives appreciated Cortés' oratorial skills and
decided to emulate him. Indo-European languages were spread there
by massive immigration while the native population suffered terrible
losses.

The specific shortcomings of Renfrew's idea do not license a
generalized statement that "[p]opulation movements have little to
no connection with language movements."

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber ***@mips.inka.de

Peter T. Daniels

2019-10-21 01:50:00 UTC

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Peter T. Daniels
I wonder whether Athel knows that almost no Native Americans speak any
language other than English, Spanish, or Portuguese? (Except in Mexico
and possibly Guatemala.)

Paraguay with Guarani immediately comes to mind. I vaguely remember
a soccer international between Paraguay and a team from some other
hispanophone country, where the commentator pointed out that the
Paraguayans were using Guarani on the pitch so they wouldn't be
overheard by the other team.
Anyway, the modern linguistic situation in the Americas didn't come
about because the natives appreciated Cortés' oratorial skills and
decided to emulate him. Indo-European languages were spread there
by massive immigration while the native population suffered terrible
losses.

The specific shortcomings of Renfrew's idea do not license a
generalized statement that "[p]opulation movements have little to
no connection with language movements."

Studies of language replacement do.

Ross

2019-10-21 03:42:21 UTC

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Peter T. Daniels
I wonder whether Athel knows that almost no Native Americans speak any
language other than English, Spanish, or Portuguese? (Except in Mexico
and possibly Guatemala.)

Paraguay with Guarani immediately comes to mind. I vaguely remember
a soccer international between Paraguay and a team from some other
hispanophone country, where the commentator pointed out that the
Paraguayans were using Guarani on the pitch so they wouldn't be
overheard by the other team.
Anyway, the modern linguistic situation in the Americas didn't come
about because the natives appreciated Cortés' oratorial skills and
decided to emulate him. Indo-European languages were spread there
by massive immigration while the native population suffered terrible
losses.

The specific shortcomings of Renfrew's idea do not license a
generalized statement that "[p]opulation movements have little to
no connection with language movements."

Studies of language replacement do.

Really? Could you give a reference for this claim? Relating either to
language replacement or language movement -- not the same thing, of course.

Ruud Harmsen

2019-10-20 20:31:06 UTC

Sun, 20 Oct 2019 20:54:57 +0200: Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Sun, 20 Oct 2019 09:19:32 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Population movements have little to no connection with language movements.

Of course they have!
What is true, though, is that they do not always coincide, because
migrated populations sometimes adopt (or are forced to adopt) a
language of those already there, or vice versa.

I wonder how Peter thinks that English, Spanish and Portuguese became
the predominant languages in the Americas. Not by passive diffusion,
surely?

Right.

But the French do not speak Frankish; Spaniards and Portuguese do not
speak Gothic; and Tunesians speak Phoenician nor Vandal.

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Christian Weisgerber

2019-10-20 20:50:29 UTC

Post by Ruud Harmsen

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Population movements have little to no connection with language movements.

Of course they have!

I wonder how Peter thinks that English, Spanish and Portuguese became
the predominant languages in the Americas. Not by passive diffusion,
surely?

Archaeologists have been notoriously unable to find physical evidence
of a migration that would correspond to the Indo-European expansion
into Europe. This led to all sorts of handwaving how it might have
spread as a prestige language without an associated population
movement. The recent discovery of a significant genetic influx
from the steppe into Europe at just the right time should put an
end to that line of thinking, at least in this specific case.

The question comes up every time there is a large-scale language
displacement with insufficient evidence of a corresponding population
movement: Latin in Gaul, Anglo-Saxon in England, etc.

At best, the idea that there can be language movements with little
connection to population movements should be treated as a disputed
hypothesis.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber ***@mips.inka.de

Ruud Harmsen

2019-10-20 18:32:19 UTC

Sun, 20 Oct 2019 07:12:09 -0700 (PDT): Tommy Mogaka

Post by Tommy Mogaka
bariki - (Swahili) - to bless

From Arabic, very likely.

Post by Tommy Mogaka
bareka - (Khemet) - to bless

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Ruud Harmsen

2019-10-20 18:36:37 UTC

Sun, 20 Oct 2019 07:12:09 -0700 (PDT): Tommy Mogaka

Post by Tommy Mogaka
muti - (Khemet) - dead person
maiti - (Swahili) - dead person

From Arabic mayyit, of course, as was my first guess.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/maiti#Etymology_2

I don't know what language you mean by "Khemet", but if it has
anything to do with Ancient Egyptian: that language was related with
Arabic and other Semitic languages, via Afro-Asiatic. And Swahili is
choc full of Arabic loans, that is a known fact.

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Tommy Mogaka

2019-10-21 04:09:34 UTC

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Sun, 20 Oct 2019 07:12:09 -0700 (PDT): Tommy Mogaka

Post by Tommy Mogaka
muti - (Khemet) - dead person
maiti - (Swahili) - dead person

From Arabic mayyit, of course, as was my first guess.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/maiti#Etymology_2
I don't know what language you mean by "Khemet", but if it has
anything to do with Ancient Egyptian: that language was related with
Arabic and other Semitic languages, via Afro-Asiatic. And Swahili is
choc full of Arabic loans, that is a known fact.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Ruud Harmsen

2019-10-20 18:38:36 UTC

Sun, 20 Oct 2019 07:12:09 -0700 (PDT): Tommy Mogaka

Post by Tommy Mogaka
aagarta - (Khemet) - chariot
gari - (Swahili) - car

From Hindi: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gari#Etymology_3,
from Prakrit:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%97%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%A1%E0%A4%BC%E0%A5%80#Hindi

Instead of guessing and speculating, you might consider looking up
what is already known.

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Tommy Mogaka

2019-10-21 04:12:09 UTC

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Sun, 20 Oct 2019 07:12:09 -0700 (PDT): Tommy Mogaka

Post by Tommy Mogaka
aagarta - (Khemet) - chariot
gari - (Swahili) - car

From Hindi: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gari#Etymology_3,
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%97%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%A1%E0%A4%BC%E0%A5%80#Hindi
Instead of guessing and speculating, you might consider looking up
what is already known.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

I agree with this... but what preceeded the other... Egyptian or the others? That's the question!

Ruud Harmsen

2019-10-20 18:42:42 UTC

Sun, 20 Oct 2019 07:12:09 -0700 (PDT): Tommy Mogaka

Post by Tommy Mogaka
heh - (Khemet) - air, breath
hewa - (Swahili) - air, breath

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hewa#Swahili
From Arabic.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D9%87_%D9%88_%D9%8A#Arabic

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Ruud Harmsen

2019-10-20 18:48:22 UTC

Sun, 20 Oct 2019 07:12:09 -0700 (PDT): Tommy Mogaka

Post by Tommy Mogaka
2. The out of Africa theory might not be entirely accurate.

You're off a few 10 thousands of years.

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Arnaud Fournet

2019-10-20 21:06:51 UTC

Post by Tommy Mogaka
I believe true science is a multidisciplinary in it's approach.... Linguistics is a secret weapon in a scientist's tool-box of unearthing truth but still it should not be taken alone but alongside other disciplines like archaeology, biology, genetics etc.
The above said, even having considered all the disciplines of science, one would still fall short if s/he did not consider the other two facets that are the expression of human existence i.e. art expressed as culture and religion expressed as faith.
Pharaoh Khufu - While conventional archaeology doesn't explain his name, perhaps Linguistics can chip in here. Khufu happens to be the first "true" pharaoh i.e. he was the first to fully declare himself "a man god". Could this be the origins of the swahili word MTUKHUFU?
busu - (Swahili) - to kiss
busu - (Khemet) - to kiss
beberu - (Swahili) - strong man, , was the term used to reffere to the colonialists
bebu - (Khemet) - strong man
bariki - (Swahili) - to bless
bareka - (Khemet) - to bless
paRa - (Khemet) - the Sun
bara - (Gusii) - the sun to shine
paa - (Khemet) - to fly
paa - (Swahilit) - to fly
m'tchar - (Khemet) - to obey
m'cha - (Swahili) - to obey
pesi - (Khemet) - tax
pesa - (Swahili) - money
pequ - (Khemet) - seed
pequ - (Khosa) - seed
mbegu - (Swahili) - seed
muti - (Khemet) - dead person
maiti - (Swahili) - dead person
mpaitu - (Khemet) - not yet
mbado - (Swahili) - not yet
aagarta - (Khemet) - chariot
gari - (Swahili) - car
rua - (Khemet) - drive away, chase away
rua - (Gusii) - go away
mut - (Khemet) - lake, pond
muto - (Swahili) - river
ruti - (Khemet) - to return
rudi - (Swahili) - to return
nesh - (Khemet) - to sprinkle water
nyesha - (Swahilii) - to rain
mvua (Swahili) - rain
Imvula (xhosa) -
embura (Kisii) -
bura (Kikuyu) -
Imvula (Kinyarwanda) -
rema - (Khemet) - lion
rema - (Gusii) - brave
rema - (Khemet) - plot of ground
rema - (Gusii) - land, plough land
hai - (khemet) - naked,
haya - (Swahili) - shame
ua - (Khemet) - kill, destroy, upsde down ankh
ua - (Swahili) - kill, destroy
baka - (Khemet) - empregnate
baka - (Swahili) - rape
rirara - (Khemet) - make joyful noise
Iriria - kisii, ululate (iririata)
heh - (Khemet) - air, breath
hewa - (Swahili) - air, breath
Kuukuu - (Swahili), Kaka - older, elder
abagaka - (Gusi) - (omogaka)
guka(Kikuyu) - grand father
See kaka in egyptian
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1-6ZpBykuGrACGN5VJsWvpI4H69hrBe07
https://www.um.es/cepoat/egipcio/wp-content/uploads/egyptianhierogly.pdf
The above are Bantu words which I garnered from looking at the Ancient Egyptian Dictionary in the link above by Sir E. A. Willis Budge and comparing it with Swahili, Gusii Tribal Language and a a few other Bantu languages of East Africa e.g. Kikuyu, Kamba, Kinyarwanda, Kuria, Meru etc.
maji - (Swahili) - water
mayim - (Hebrew) - water
shilhi - (Hebrew) - weapon
silaha - (Swahili) - weapon
carmi - (Hebrew) - garden, vineyard
kirimi - (Meru) - farmer, gardener
malak - (Hebrew) - to take the throne and become king r queen
miliki - (Swahli) - take ownership, own
malkia - (Swahili) - queen
serarah - (Hebrew) - to rule
sera - (Swahili) - rulership policies
poa - (Hebrew) - splendid
poa - (Swahili) - splendid
khahm - (Hebrew) - in-law
kamati - (Gusii) - in-law
1. Perhaps African's were not savages after all.
2. The out of Africa theory might not be entirely accurate.
3. Bantu classification as coming from Niger Congo might need to be relooked at in favour of a more northerly origin in agreement with tribal accounts of origins from a place called Misri which is synonymous with Egypt.

Do you know the history of Swahili? When did it enter East Africa from
the Bantu homeland farther to the west? How could it have encountered
Arabic, let alone Hebrew?

Post by t***@gmail.com
I say this because both cultures have significant influence of Ancient Egyptian words which bore great influence to both these cultures.
http://www.kaa-umati.co.uk/

All that junk stinks of Anta-Diop-ish Black Supremacism, claiming that Egyptians were in fact black people, etc. and other demented rewritings of History.

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

2019-10-20 22:16:47 UTC

Do you know the history of Swahili? When did it enter East Africa from
the Bantu homeland farther to the west? How could it have encountered
Arabic, let alone Hebrew?

Post by t***@gmail.com
I say this because both cultures have significant influence of Ancient Egyptian words which bore great influence to both these cultures.
http://www.kaa-umati.co.uk/

All that junk stinks of Anta-Diop-ish Black Supremacism, claiming that Egyptians were in fact black people, etc. and other demented rewritings of History.

Actually, hardly more "demented rewriting" than the suggestion that Egyptians were "white".

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

2019-10-20 22:14:12 UTC

Post by Tommy Mogaka
1. Perhaps African's were not savages after all.

You are the only person here who has suggested that "Africans were savages". Actually, you can bet your bottom dollar that no Africanist linguist worth his salt suggests that Africans were savages, but knows much more about African cultures and cultural innovations than you know.

Regarding the presence of Semitic, i.e. Arabic, loanwords in African languages: there is no need to search alternative explanations for them, when we already know that a certain influential religion you might have heard of - Islam, that is - spread the Arabic language and Arabic linguistic influence to a major part of Africa.

Tommy Mogaka

2019-10-21 04:03:49 UTC

Post by Tommy Mogaka
1. Perhaps African's were not savages after all.

You are the only person here who has suggested that "Africans were savages". Actually, you can bet your bottom dollar that no Africanist linguist worth his salt suggests that Africans were savages, but knows much more about African cultures and cultural innovations than you know.
Regarding the presence of Semitic, i.e. Arabic, loanwords in African languages: there is no need to search alternative explanations for them, when we already know that a certain influential religion you might have heard of - Islam, that is - spread the Arabic language and Arabic linguistic influence to a major part of Africa.

Ross

2019-10-21 05:26:05 UTC

The 2-8 percent figure was based on a 100-word list of basic vocabulary.
Such lists typically show minimal influence from outside sources. It tells
us nothing about the amount of Arabic borrowing in the vocabulary as a whole
(thousands of words).
Linguists don't normally classify languages as "hybrids". Swahili is
certainly a lingua franca (look it up). Hardly anybody thinks it's a
creole. It's a Bantu language with quite a bit of Arabic-derived vocabulary.
Mr Spear's talk about it being "stolen" is emotive nonsense.

Tommy Mogaka

2019-10-21 05:30:03 UTC

Have you read Mr. Spear's works?

Ross

2019-10-21 06:05:17 UTC

Have you read Mr. Spear's works?

Only the two paragraphs you posted. He doesn't seem to know much about
language.

Tommy Mogaka

2019-10-21 07:03:05 UTC

Have you read Mr. Spear's works?

Only the two paragraphs you posted. He doesn't seem to know much about
language.

How do you know that those are his words if you haven't read his works?

Ross

2019-10-21 11:41:15 UTC

Have you read Mr. Spear's works?

Only the two paragraphs you posted. He doesn't seem to know much about
language.

How do you know that those are his words if you haven't read his works?

His name appears at the end of the two paragraphs. What's it doing there if
they aren't his words?

Tommy Mogaka

2019-10-21 13:04:16 UTC

Have you read Mr. Spear's works?

Only the two paragraphs you posted. He doesn't seem to know much about
language.

How do you know that those are his words if you haven't read his works?

His name appears at the end of the two paragraphs. What's it doing there if
they aren't his words?

Yup! They are his words but it is always a good idea to double check sources. He did some good work with Derek Nurse. See the works below if you can get access to it.

The Swahili: Reconstructing the History and Language of an African Society, 800-1500, Derek Nurse & Thomas Spear (1985), gives a reasoned assessment of how Swahili has developed as a language within a society; the origins of Swahili as a Bantu language are examined.

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

2019-10-19 23:44:23 UTC

Post by t***@gmail.com
Have you considered that Swahili may have older roots than two and hence be more likely the word donor to both Hebrew and Arabic?

Linguists do not usually consider unscientific suggestions.

Tommy Mogaka

2019-10-20 14:13:12 UTC